00:00:00 ◼ ► They'll say they funny now that's a really good that's a really good ending sort of sending funny [TS]
00:00:15 ◼ ► and get in an argument again I I would just like to say that I think most of the feedback sided with me that flappy [TS]
00:00:26 ◼ ► but it was that it got most of its popularity at least initial popularity boost that got it into the top charts which [TS]
00:00:39 ◼ ► and even though it is not it is not what you know it's to me it's like a McDonald's hamburger of games not even without [TS]
00:00:46 ◼ ► Michael when he's number and like it's like you know you shouldn't like it it's terrible. [TS]
00:00:58 ◼ ► McDonald's is not good except breakfast. Breakfast is going well or whatever people eat with all that actually good. [TS]
00:01:03 ◼ ► Is there anything there that you have to make the burgers or not but breakfast is good. [TS]
00:01:08 ◼ ► I actually found it like a long car trips where I have to like stop at a rest area some were in the middle of nowhere [TS]
00:01:17 ◼ ► and you're really somewhere in the middle of nowhere I would go with McDonald's because they're they've always been [TS]
00:01:24 ◼ ► extremely good about quality control standards and so it's you know you're guaranteed to get the same crap everywhere. [TS]
00:01:42 ◼ ► when we did that was in a fairly populated area I'm talking about like if you're stopping at the Pennsylvania Turnpike [TS]
00:01:48 ◼ ► or something you know really you're really in the middle of nowhere and you're and you have like the Roy Rogers [TS]
00:01:53 ◼ ► or the mic. Oh God I remember. Or like the T.C.B. Why you know you know this is this is our new. [TS]
00:02:00 ◼ ► This isn't so John what do you think about the Flappy Bird follow up I think the feedback was it's hard to tell [TS]
00:02:06 ◼ ► but are especially because of course I only see the replies that I had mentioned me [TS]
00:02:14 ◼ ► I wouldn't see those or whatever but I think the majority of the feedback was that they agree with you [TS]
00:02:19 ◼ ► and that just goes to show that the majority of people are often wrong about things like that. [TS]
00:02:26 ◼ ► As is often the case in this part Guess where I don't do any preparation like we sort of talk about things in the [TS]
00:02:32 ◼ ► and then after the podcast I think of like how you know how I could have approached to better explain things better [TS]
00:02:39 ◼ ► or maybe just the next I want to summarize stuff whereas I do have some actual fault that it by the notes about this [TS]
00:03:02 ◼ ► when you're very successful you get a lot of attacks from people who don't think you should be that successful don't [TS]
00:03:09 ◼ ► think you deserve your success or just because you're very popular you get a backlash effect. [TS]
00:03:20 ◼ ► and everybody knows what you are you're going to have a portion of the larger backlash [TS]
00:03:28 ◼ ► and I tried to point out that like I didn't think it was a terrible game because it's not it's not terrible it's not [TS]
00:03:40 ◼ ► Right so what I'm saying my people are there and I don't think it's a terrible game no it's not a terrible game [TS]
00:03:45 ◼ ► and yes you have to recognize that because it's so successful do you see this crazy backlash against the game the [TS]
00:03:51 ◼ ► concept of the game people who enjoy the game and that is one of the sides of success [TS]
00:04:00 ◼ ► Now because I think a lot of the people saying I agree with Marco it's not a terrible game I don't think anybody said [TS]
00:04:08 ◼ ► and it's like oh it's good versus mediocre versus you know I would call it a mediocre game I would not call it a good [TS]
00:04:16 ◼ ► And of course as many things about it that make it be successful in the marketplace [TS]
00:04:26 ◼ ► and how successful it is in the market sort of like the is the McDonald's hamburger good hamburger [TS]
00:04:30 ◼ ► or bad hammer versus how many McDonald's hamburgers are sold every year that type of distinction although I draw that [TS]
00:04:36 ◼ ► line much more harshly than most people do because most people will say that their favorite movie is the best movie [TS]
00:04:52 ◼ ► I would say Marco what is best in life and you would say What are you talking about [TS]
00:04:55 ◼ ► and what the second side of success is over I mean if you could just guess at least we're consistent. [TS]
00:05:10 ◼ ► Up this is not that long but do you think there's going to be some flapping So there's going to be some flapping [TS]
00:05:17 ◼ ► and some birds Second Sight of success is the idea is the opposite side of the coin of like everyone attacking the [TS]
00:05:25 ◼ ► thing is successful and that is people deciding that the successful thing is a success based on its merits [TS]
00:05:37 ◼ ► or admirable So that means diminishing the role of chance in this and minimizing or diminishing less attractive merits. [TS]
00:05:44 ◼ ► So for example if you think it's admirable to be a successful game because of the code it's in the game itself because [TS]
00:05:54 ◼ ► and if you think it's not admirable to be successful because of a genius marketing campaign. [TS]
00:06:00 ◼ ► Or like a very well made television ad or something or whatever you decide is sort of less fair or less you know. [TS]
00:06:09 ◼ ► If you're deciding what your merits are most of us kind of agree like the game itself of the code that ships is good [TS]
00:06:15 ◼ ► and the game is successful that is fair and there's Adam BOWEN We should all look up to [TS]
00:06:20 ◼ ► but if something isn't successful because they take the other end of the spectrum someone you know paid to get a bunch [TS]
00:06:27 ◼ ► What if they had a really good ad campaign and they wrote the ad copy themselves and they made the art [TS]
00:06:31 ◼ ► and they didn't want to. What if they had a really good strategy for viral marketing or whatever we decide. [TS]
00:06:40 ◼ ► So as being in the game itself when I'm talking about like success based on the merit a lot most people [TS]
00:06:46 ◼ ► when they see a big success will decide that the thing is successful based on whatever they think are the most [TS]
00:06:56 ◼ ► and I think that was I was taking a last podcast was that the merits of the game itself [TS]
00:07:02 ◼ ► and that's the thing that I find I would find an admirable reason for success is like what's in the code what's in the [TS]
00:07:07 ◼ ► binary that ships the people and all the other stuff I consider less less directly connected to success [TS]
00:07:14 ◼ ► and in terms of like is the game good versus the marketing campaign good versus you know that the popularity of our [TS]
00:07:23 ◼ ► I mention in the show that there are plenty of other games that have similar attributes [TS]
00:07:28 ◼ ► when Mark was saying the attributes of the game to its excessive playing those attributes were probably necessary for [TS]
00:07:37 ◼ ► but they're not sufficient because lots of other games have those same attributes and they're not successes. [TS]
00:07:44 ◼ ► but not sufficient implicitly one of trying to get here is implicitly we're discussing that all of us kind of agreed [TS]
00:07:51 ◼ ► implicitly what things we're talking about we weren't talking about the ad campaign [TS]
00:08:04 ◼ ► and we did need to establish up front because I think like we're on the same page in terms of [TS]
00:08:12 ◼ ► and I don't think that that's necessarily a valid viewpoint from all perspectives because if you were in the [TS]
00:08:17 ◼ ► advertising business for example if you read Ad Age and I like our you know big into the advertising world. [TS]
00:08:23 ◼ ► Of course you would consider the ad campaign part of the success of that you know the things like that so important [TS]
00:08:28 ◼ ► fact it's more important in the binary that you created I was going to stab us in the like we are there are some things [TS]
00:08:33 ◼ ► that we don't state that are definitely informing what it is that we're talking about so much so that we didn't even [TS]
00:08:37 ◼ ► need to call them out last time and most people who are responding that's all that need to call them out [TS]
00:08:46 ◼ ► And anyway so they said that about you know their aftermath star having these characteristics of course people came out [TS]
00:08:51 ◼ ► of the woodwork and said show me these tens of thousands of games that have these other characteristics [TS]
00:08:57 ◼ ► and that's kind of a sucker's bet because a you know how many games are there in the App Store one hundred thousand two [TS]
00:09:05 ◼ ► but no one has played them all so it's pretty much impossible to exhaust a very fine woman [TS]
00:09:09 ◼ ► and it is some sort of statistical sampling of games to try to find games of these qualities. [TS]
00:09:14 ◼ ► Couple people posted games or they thought here's this game from five years ago that I was in college or whatever [TS]
00:09:18 ◼ ► but the reason I say it's a sucker's bet because whatever game anyone was to cite someone will say well that one is not [TS]
00:09:29 ◼ ► or Flappy Birds has this game doesn't have the down to the fact like well that doesn't include birds in flappy birds [TS]
00:09:34 ◼ ► includes birds and do the history of the App Store with or as a call Angry Birds and tiny wing that birds [TS]
00:09:40 ◼ ► and selves you know therefore fly the birds was this perfect thing you know and it would be impossible. [TS]
00:09:50 ◼ ► and doesn't have you know extra levels all on one screen doesn't scroll doesn't matter where you tap on the screen to [TS]
00:09:55 ◼ ► some like the always be some difference treating the game that you cite in that game [TS]
00:10:00 ◼ ► Yes and his other game wasn't and that's why I think flappy bird itself is the best example. [TS]
00:10:06 ◼ ► Which is why I gave the time travel scenario on the show which is like OK go back in time to before it was created. [TS]
00:10:12 ◼ ► Bring the Flappy Bird diary with you submit it to the App Store across you know provisioning profiles would never let [TS]
00:10:21 ◼ ► And and you'll see that it doesn't sell and flappy bird itself is on the App Store for months and months and months [TS]
00:10:28 ◼ ► and even then with this example I imagine someone will say well there was some minor gameplay tweak that happened just [TS]
00:10:34 ◼ ► It took off and that was a minor game which gave gameplay tweak that made it happen all of this is true or not [TS]
00:10:39 ◼ ► and of fighting for its gameplay was updated all between the time it was released six months ago now [TS]
00:10:45 ◼ ► and the reason I bring up these hypothetical you know people's complaints that they would have if you were trying to [TS]
00:10:50 ◼ ► say earlier games or if you were trying to say flappy bird itself which I did frequently on Twitter [TS]
00:10:57 ◼ ► Like well you know understand it was it was you know it had to be it had to be in the store gestating for six months [TS]
00:11:03 ◼ ► because of how long the ramp takes for viral whatever you know there's always something you can say [TS]
00:11:06 ◼ ► and this is the point I really wanted to get at on this part of cast and that I didn't bring up the last one. [TS]
00:11:18 ◼ ► and then working backwards from its success to determine why is why it was successful it's kind of this fatalistic [TS]
00:11:27 ◼ ► and decide that every attribute of that thing that you find admirable has to be in exactly that position for it to be [TS]
00:11:34 ◼ ► Right and this I think even applies to really good games and most other things in life where you look at the success [TS]
00:11:42 ◼ ► and even the really admirable awesome things about it. You'll say that's why it succeeded. [TS]
00:11:46 ◼ ► And also every other detail of that thing because how could it have been any other way you know this is what happened [TS]
00:11:53 ◼ ► Be married to the perfect game because it is massless it has no other games that were not five birds were not [TS]
00:11:57 ◼ ► successful therefore you must be like flappy birds. Nothing but flappy bird could have been together also and so forth. [TS]
00:12:03 ◼ ► And to address this friend of the show Kieran Healy put a blog post he's the sociologist [TS]
00:12:09 ◼ ► or does he play on the Internet I think is a real sociologist and teaches sociology. [TS]
00:12:13 ◼ ► He's really smart he teaches it do you believe that's true and if that's not true when I go and he's actually U.N.C. [TS]
00:12:20 ◼ ► He posts something where the sociologists are interested in this phenomenon of like how do things become successful [TS]
00:12:25 ◼ ► and the angle they were taking on it was why can't record executives and stuff predict like hit songs [TS]
00:12:31 ◼ ► and ideas like don't you guys know anything about their business how come they have such a poor track record a perfect [TS]
00:12:40 ◼ ► and if you asked executives beforehand they would be totally sure the song that was going to be a hit and it was [TS]
00:12:45 ◼ ► and other people say the song is going nowhere and becomes a mega-hit. Why can't we predict that. [TS]
00:12:49 ◼ ► So trying to figure out this phenomenon they ran a series of experiments where they had a bunch of songs in this case [TS]
00:13:06 ◼ ► And in other situations they can see how many songs how many times a song is downloaded. [TS]
00:13:12 ◼ ► So it's basically trying to move the slider on social influence from like zero all they have to maximum [TS]
00:13:19 ◼ ► and what they found an experiment was that increasing the strength of social influence increased both the inequality [TS]
00:13:27 ◼ ► So as they made the social aspect more relevant like as they show the download numbers more primally as they sort of [TS]
00:13:32 ◼ ► buy downloads or whatever the difference between the most only successful became much bigger. [TS]
00:13:38 ◼ ► The difference you like the winners of the races which you kind of expect because like this a piling on effect of like [TS]
00:13:45 ◼ ► and losers want to download it all versus if you had no signal from what other people are doing there would be you [TS]
00:13:50 ◼ ► wouldn't see this runaway success. But the other part of the thing was that the predictability of success went down. [TS]
00:14:01 ◼ ► Never did really well but almost any other result was possible I'm quoting from his blog post there. [TS]
00:14:07 ◼ ► So basically once you add social signal to the mix amongst the games amongst the songs that were kind of in the good [TS]
00:14:14 ◼ ► category as the social signal increased which one of those songs would be that it became totally unpredictable [TS]
00:14:20 ◼ ► and he when he wrote he first wrote this blog post I was like oh this is one point I didn't make [TS]
00:14:25 ◼ ► and I'm excited to make it on the on the pod cast next week but only updated his blog post making my additional point. [TS]
00:14:31 ◼ ► He told me I could still make it because we're both right so I will use the phrase that I was going to use here I had [TS]
00:14:38 ◼ ► to come up with different wording to that I want to copy is right exactly the way he's trying to explain the reluctance [TS]
00:14:44 ◼ ► of people's reluctance to agree that true unpredictability is a real feature of markets like this like people don't [TS]
00:14:49 ◼ ► want to believe that there is that unpredictability as you increase also saying NO among the top they want to believe [TS]
00:14:57 ◼ ► but these experiments prove that in a totally different set of people with the same set of songs. [TS]
00:15:01 ◼ ► Run this experiment to different times amongst the sort of good enough to be good songs as you increase a social signal [TS]
00:15:11 ◼ ► Psychologically people are often predisposed to believe in some version of a just world hypothesis where people are [TS]
00:15:23 ◼ ► and that what happened deserve to happen especially with something like well I like this game [TS]
00:15:31 ◼ ► and if you try to tell them that it's number one for reasons other than just it being a really good game you're saying [TS]
00:15:36 ◼ ► this game is terrible or you know you just don't understand why this game is good or anything like that. [TS]
00:15:43 ◼ ► and even cites the other example that I was hoping to bring out which is you see this all the time in books about how [TS]
00:16:02 ◼ ► but the eighty's becomes amazingly successful for whatever reason and besides I now know everything. [TS]
00:16:10 ◼ ► I'm a mass of the successful I need to write a book telling everybody else what I know and they don't [TS]
00:16:14 ◼ ► and they write these books about like here's what I do like every morning and have cornflakes are right [TS]
00:16:21 ◼ ► and we get into work early like they did they just take every detail from their life [TS]
00:16:26 ◼ ► Everything I do in my life must have led to the success there for all of you people should do this [TS]
00:16:33 ◼ ► Again working backwards from success in every business is like that like we did this in our business [TS]
00:16:42 ◼ ► or whenever we get the software methodologies about in the future show I'm sure talking about this is a year where it's [TS]
00:16:50 ◼ ► like we did something we were successful therefore this methodology should work for everybody [TS]
00:16:55 ◼ ► and all the business book in particular love to just that the winners come and tell you here's what I did [TS]
00:17:01 ◼ ► and if you do that you'll be successful because otherwise to think otherwise would be to think that your success is [TS]
00:17:07 ◼ ► derived from something other than the merits you consider admirable if your success is derived from like you know the [TS]
00:17:14 ◼ ► and got into a good school because their legacies the fact that you were in the right place at the right time with a [TS]
00:17:23 ◼ ► and you know you decide it's because of your great business AQIM in really any monkey could have run the business [TS]
00:17:30 ◼ ► No one wants to believe that happenstance or things that you don't consider admirable contributed to your success [TS]
00:17:41 ◼ ► Anyway this link to Karen's article but the results and links to the papers that no one's going to read [TS]
00:17:45 ◼ ► but he has a really good summary of it with some grass and then encourage everyone to read it. [TS]
00:17:52 ◼ ► but I think all of them are suffering from the symptoms described in Karen's blog post or well and also. [TS]
00:18:08 ◼ ► and I have to save my words tonight so I don't and I'm coughing all night. But that's science. [TS]
00:18:21 ◼ ► when trying to apply lessons learned from someone else's success to two general cases [TS]
00:18:44 ◼ ► and that's of course as I cast a title and it's a fantastic talkers audio recordings of it [TS]
00:18:51 ◼ ► and it was two thousand nine hundred fireball it's not really going to work because we already have a Daring Fireball [TS]
00:19:11 ◼ ► and Daring Fireball got big in an environment that didn't have a Daring Fireball and so [TS]
00:19:20 ◼ ► and the environment back then was different and then he succeeded in that environment. [TS]
00:19:24 ◼ ► But if you try to do the same thing today you're in a completely different time with different set of conditions [TS]
00:19:30 ◼ ► and you know the same lessons don't always work more than once because they they have this context that let them work [TS]
00:19:37 ◼ ► or that or that they thrive with and so like everyone's going to make all these flappy clone games now [TS]
00:19:42 ◼ ► and try to replicate this but this succeeded you know in part because of the environment and the time [TS]
00:19:49 ◼ ► and the fact that something like this hadn't really done this before so it was this novelty you know all know something [TS]
00:20:03 ◼ ► when people brought up the Flappy Bird clones like you know lots of those a lot of debate that sort of mention me that [TS]
00:20:10 ◼ ► and some of them were like well just look at all the flighty Bird clones why are they succeeding all that is obvious [TS]
00:20:15 ◼ ► you know like they're just whatever is already exists like that that's the reason I came for the time travel scenario [TS]
00:20:27 ◼ ► That's that's not a valid example you know by the way the Flappy Bird clones are succeeding. [TS]
00:20:36 ◼ ► and the wonders of the App Store search ensure that far outweigh don't look at the pop charts like the Clones are still [TS]
00:20:43 ◼ ► Well you know it's also the fact that now you can get flappy bird so it's wide open for Flappy Bird clones [TS]
00:20:48 ◼ ► but you know what I mean like they're not none of those cones is going to be flooded roads because flooded roads [TS]
00:20:58 ◼ ► We are sponsored this week by our friends attending Tang is mobile that makes sense. There are no B.S. [TS]
00:21:04 ◼ ► Simple to use mobile service provider from the people at two cows the company behind hover ting is a reseller of the [TS]
00:21:10 ◼ ► Sprint network in the U.S. They have a great solid network behind them. It's going to a special U.R.L. [TS]
00:21:25 ◼ ► You own your device out right from the start and then you just pay for what you use every month so here's how it works. [TS]
00:21:32 ◼ ► You get any compatible Sprint device you can get through them you can get it new you can get it used you can buy [TS]
00:21:39 ◼ ► or whatever you can you know ask a friend if they have an old Sprint device including the Sprint i Phone So check check [TS]
00:21:46 ◼ ► them to see exactly which models are compatible they have all the stuff up going to A.T.P. [TS]
00:21:50 ◼ ► That can not come to see so anyway you get your phone somehow doesn't really matter how any kind of any spring [TS]
00:21:55 ◼ ► compatible phone that they list in their site and then you just pay a base price of sixty. [TS]
00:22:01 ◼ ► and then on top of that there's all these buckets for there's a bucket set for for data buckets for talk minutes about [TS]
00:22:09 ◼ ► and Use pay for whatever you use whatever bucket is the cheapest that will accomplish what they use they pick that one [TS]
00:22:17 ◼ ► So for example you know if you use use one hundred megs of data this month on a device you'll just pay for that bucket [TS]
00:22:27 ◼ ► and the next month after that if you switch was back down but right back down so you never really pay for it. [TS]
00:22:33 ◼ ► You don't have to remember to like you know go to their site or call them and get it increased when you go on a trip [TS]
00:22:38 ◼ ► and then get it decreased when you go back home. None of that you just pay for what you use. [TS]
00:22:46 ◼ ► They discounted a bunch of their data presence bestially So five hundred megs twelve bucks two gigs is just twenty nine. [TS]
00:22:59 ◼ ► So really great so you can see how much you can save by going to tango eight A.T.P. [TS]
00:23:04 ◼ ► To come check out the savings calculator you can enter in your last few bills from a carrier [TS]
00:23:14 ◼ ► and over time they can show you OK well let's say you go to buy a device up front. [TS]
00:23:18 ◼ ► Then you'll pay for it in three months with the savings or whatever it's a really great stuff here. [TS]
00:23:24 ◼ ► They also have this cool program where if you're stuck in a contract with someone else [TS]
00:23:30 ◼ ► They will even give you twenty five percent of that early termination fee in service credit up to seventy five dollars [TS]
00:23:37 ◼ ► to help get you over the ten years with this possible. They have great customer support just like cover. [TS]
00:23:43 ◼ ► No hold no wait. Telephone support during the business day so you can just call them between A.T.M. and Eight P.M. [TS]
00:23:48 ◼ ► Eastern and a human being will pick up the phone who is ready and able to help you. [TS]
00:24:00 ◼ ► They they have you can pull devices to manage a fleet of devices all this crazy stuff great stuff here. [TS]
00:24:06 ◼ ► It's also really good for developers if you want test devices on different platforms like Android you can get a test [TS]
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00:24:17 ◼ ► rate and bring it over to saying great stuff here sort of find out more. Going to A.T.P. [TS]
00:24:22 ◼ ► Tang dot com and I believe that's it I don't think you have to enter coupon code or anything. [TS]
00:24:30 ◼ ► and learn more about this great company Thanks a lot to take in for sponsoring the show once again. [TS]
00:24:36 ◼ ► So powerful very birds brands that at least I'm continuing to refer to this as flappy birds when it's singular. [TS]
00:24:47 ◼ ► and I have the opposite problem with tiny wings where I feel like I always want to call tiny wing [TS]
00:24:55 ◼ ► and then a series of other things I was there is another thing with the birds like things that contribute to this. [TS]
00:24:59 ◼ ► Flappy Birds I have to think somewhere in the list of things that contribute to this is us is the fact that it features [TS]
00:25:06 ◼ ► and the fact that that birds are you know common in the App Store there's been a lot of hit games birds [TS]
00:25:12 ◼ ► and their cuteness games about flying and it's had good artwork I mean it's there's no question that was part of it. [TS]
00:25:18 ◼ ► Like in terms like your inherent experiments that he cited in his blog like what is the thing that caused the Angry [TS]
00:25:25 ◼ ► Birds to hit or go go back in time why the bird games are associated with mobile devices angry it was anger [TS]
00:25:31 ◼ ► but it's the first one was it building on something else like it's such an incredibly complex situation which I didn't [TS]
00:25:37 ◼ ► think you could ever devise an experiment to try and isolate the things that I saw it in this experiment [TS]
00:25:41 ◼ ► but even this experiment is much simpler than the actual app store because songs are sort of I guess they have titles [TS]
00:25:51 ◼ ► but it's kind of like you don't know what you're getting into you click on the thing [TS]
00:26:00 ◼ ► But which one and likely run the experiment a million times and it keeps becoming incredibly important to Bill. [TS]
00:26:09 ◼ ► and I think they'll be the next phase an experiment trying to figure out is it really completely random [TS]
00:26:18 ◼ ► or decreasing your stance your chance of sort of being the lottery winner among the games that have these among the the [TS]
00:26:25 ◼ ► songs that have these qualities to put them somewhere and a good group and a flapping. [TS]
00:26:32 ◼ ► So we had the kind of monumental moments over the last week and our member exactly when it was the image I was wrong. [TS]
00:26:42 ◼ ► I'm going to choose to not engage on that one but I think you have to choose K.C. Mommy or daddy. [TS]
00:26:56 ◼ ► So we had an interesting moment over the last week wherein we actually got a bit of not complimentary feedback about [TS]
00:27:05 ◼ ► John of all people which never really happens this is very rare that's not true that it doesn't come to the show comes [TS]
00:27:25 ◼ ► Well that Marco gets a lot of them directly to do with what they know like where they can reach you they don't need to [TS]
00:27:30 ◼ ► go through the show feedback form to say mean things to you usually get on Twitter. [TS]
00:27:34 ◼ ► The email is mostly stuff since I pulled my email address off of my site. It's all hard to figure out. [TS]
00:27:45 ◼ ► Yeah I didn't put it in there because I was such a big deal that you know I get hate mail because if I get a mail right. [TS]
00:27:54 ◼ ► and I'm going to read a paragraph of it here not the whole thing it's sent from that what they put in the feedback. [TS]
00:28:06 ◼ ► and it probably won't so there are some good reverse psychology there like you know [TS]
00:28:14 ◼ ► and if I say that I'll read it in there that's not why I'm reading out of there but in effect it works. [TS]
00:28:33 ◼ ► I can take a listen to this part guess anymore I mean I know it's artistic is not like anything after all his old [TS]
00:28:38 ◼ ► podcast was called hyper critical and it wears thin after a while the guy complains about everything. [TS]
00:28:42 ◼ ► Well it's OK once in a while it's all the time all in caps. It's not even funny anymore. [TS]
00:28:47 ◼ ► It sounds more like a miserable person just whining about his miserable existence. [TS]
00:28:50 ◼ ► What are we to do with this does it really offer any insight to anything are people actually entertained by this on a [TS]
00:28:56 ◼ ► sustained level Now the reason I bring that the show is to put this in the shows two reasons one. [TS]
00:29:02 ◼ ► I'm fascinated by the idea that this person put in a fake email in the feedback form [TS]
00:29:10 ◼ ► or whatever like I don't even know because I think that the real I mean why would you create a fake. [TS]
00:29:15 ◼ ► Can't you just type anything in the email field it doesn't make you confirm that your email is real right. [TS]
00:29:22 ◼ ► And like why wouldn't you put just put your regular you like either put it either put like X X X X dot com [TS]
00:29:29 ◼ ► or put your real email in like is there is there a downside to having a really male like I'm going to harass them by [TS]
00:29:36 ◼ ► and that that confuses me as as does NOT using their real name who cares like if you don't like it you know put your [TS]
00:29:47 ◼ ► So want to put in the show nuts because you are a whole bunch of links to me being not critical about things [TS]
00:30:01 ◼ ► And like I put these in here not to convince anybody of anything because I just want to provide context [TS]
00:30:07 ◼ ► and I have a preface by saying that if your state of being requires some elaborate explanation there's already a [TS]
00:30:12 ◼ ► problem. This person is never going to like how much contact so I don't know you don't understand. [TS]
00:30:19 ◼ ► Now I find it much more enjoyable like I'm not letting this person over those persons not wasn't the target anymore [TS]
00:30:25 ◼ ► but I thought it was worth talking about because it's easy for me to assume an easy for all of us assume I think that [TS]
00:30:32 ◼ ► everybody already knows where we're coming from that they know all of our conduct so they've read our blog for years [TS]
00:30:37 ◼ ► they've read everything we write on the web and all our old podcast they know everything about us [TS]
00:30:44 ◼ ► We can kind of feel like you know of course everybody knows who these people are except for Katie obviously [TS]
00:30:55 ◼ ► and what other part because they've been on things they like one things I don't myself like that I mean I find myself [TS]
00:31:00 ◼ ► Like I assume that you know everyone who listens the show has listened I have are critical [TS]
00:31:03 ◼ ► and I find someone who listens the show and as never heard of hydrocortisone I'm surprised and I shouldn't be right. [TS]
00:31:09 ◼ ► So I think it's worthwhile providing contacts to the people who do actually enjoy the show. [TS]
00:31:15 ◼ ► I think they would enjoy it more understand it better with a little bit of context to that into the main thing I object [TS]
00:31:23 ◼ ► Fine you know like you know like whatever you don't like me you know like me that's fine [TS]
00:31:29 ◼ ► and I have a miserable existence that's easily refuted by a long list of pod cast I've been on where I talk about [TS]
00:31:36 ◼ ► things that I almost you know unabashedly love almost everything about and I put tons of links [TS]
00:31:43 ◼ ► and they're not going to read off what they are. Marco will copy and paste them into the show notes. [TS]
00:31:48 ◼ ► But suffice it to say that I talk about some podcasts I mostly just talk about things that I like [TS]
00:31:54 ◼ ► and the one link that I want to put in here for the people who want to kind of this is the original thing that I posted [TS]
00:32:00 ◼ ► and nine with the title hypercritical which is sort of my explanation of my shtick as he put it like what's the deal [TS]
00:32:06 ◼ ► Here is my attempt at explaining it again this explanation is not going to convince anyone that they are all not [TS]
00:32:10 ◼ ► something I like hearing complaining all the time you know obviously if I go when I went over [TS]
00:32:14 ◼ ► but I think it does provide context and again I always assume everyone who reads my blog [TS]
00:32:21 ◼ ► Of course they read this article How could they be listening to this you know that would know where I was coming from [TS]
00:32:28 ◼ ► So anyway and also we didn't have a sort of a dippy by the way where we talk about how we deal with criticism [TS]
00:32:33 ◼ ► and all that stuff which again some new listeners may not have heard so there will be a cornucopia of show notes links [TS]
00:32:40 ◼ ► this week for people who want to hear me liking things you know I think the most obvious example of this which is the [TS]
00:32:52 ◼ ► and Dan Benjamin doing your five by five movies is that still the only edition of five by five of the movies. [TS]
00:33:02 ◼ ► And this this podcast which which you did with Dan if you don't know listeners in you should listen to this. [TS]
00:33:15 ◼ ► and you literally spin something to the order of one hundred fifty percent of the length of the movie discussing the [TS]
00:33:31 ◼ ► You know if you love it like that that to me is just a seminal example of you being extremely positive [TS]
00:33:39 ◼ ► and if you set about something I mean it's one thing to spend an hour talking about a two hour movie [TS]
00:33:43 ◼ ► and liking it it's another thing to spend two hours talking about a two hour movie and liking it. [TS]
00:33:54 ◼ ► And that's pretty darn complimentary and I loved it and I love Goodfellas and I've seen them. [TS]
00:34:00 ◼ ► Movie thank you very much and I'd seen it before you'd done that pod cast thank you very much. [TS]
00:34:10 ◼ ► and in you know it it reminded me a lot of the really fantastic ones that that John Gruber [TS]
00:34:16 ◼ ► and Dan did about the Bond series but either way the point is it was extremely If you say that [TS]
00:34:28 ◼ ► when you tear something apart it to me it's so clearly out of love not out of hate and [TS]
00:34:32 ◼ ► and that's that's what makes it so enjoyable because if it really was negative I wouldn't want to be on the show. [TS]
00:34:43 ◼ ► or something you don't hear me talk about it all the good example that I was that well you know it is [TS]
00:34:46 ◼ ► but we did the incomparable covered the first three Star Wars movies which I really like [TS]
00:34:52 ◼ ► and we did two episodes on each movie set six total episodes of the original trilogy of Star Wars [TS]
00:34:57 ◼ ► and of course the video game that I could not stop talking about you know since it was released [TS]
00:35:02 ◼ ► and for having talked Ernie we did an episode of Being comfortable about that as well. [TS]
00:35:05 ◼ ► So anyway there's tons of me liking things if you want to hear that which you may or may not. [TS]
00:35:14 ◼ ► and a little disappointed now because I sent a NIAM to Margo a couple that we get there to now saying hey man if you [TS]
00:35:20 ◼ ► look at the show notes lately because you're in for a good show of history I don't want to write like this one I'm [TS]
00:35:25 ◼ ► going to try to convince someone who doesn't like me that they should like me like this. [TS]
00:35:29 ◼ ► The section was not for that person who presumably is not listening to the show anymore [TS]
00:35:32 ◼ ► but for the people who are listening and do enjoy it and might enjoy it more with more context and background. [TS]
00:35:41 ◼ ► It's OK You know we're also sponsored this week by our friends at square space the on one platform that makes it fast [TS]
00:35:48 ◼ ► and easy to create your own professional website or online portfolio for free trial [TS]
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00:36:00 ◼ ► Why in case no one knows how to spell Katie's name like all the people who e-mail us square spaces always improving [TS]
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00:36:47 ◼ ► Just eight dollars a month and includes a freedom eighty percent for a whole year up front. [TS]
00:36:55 ◼ ► and over again because they sponsor the entire pod cast a sphere which we love them for of course they have a couple [TS]
00:37:02 ◼ ► new things so they're this new thing called square space logo in addition to build a new Web site they now have this [TS]
00:37:08 ◼ ► thing actually lets you create a logo for your side business cards shirt whatever you want you can go check out [TS]
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00:37:24 ◼ ► Now all accounts include the commerce functionality so you can have you can now have you can make your own store online. [TS]
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00:38:30 ◼ ► and designers by March fifteenth. So go to be a part of it that's where Space dot com to learn more about that. [TS]
00:38:47 ◼ ► Do you have any thoughts on what's app what's up on even I don't freeze this I don't really to be honest this is kind [TS]
00:38:55 ◼ ► of unimportant and boring to me which I know is making friend of the show Ben Thompson pulls hair out [TS]
00:39:02 ◼ ► but I don't to me it's just very unremarkable other than the cost because it doesn't mean it doesn't mean anything to [TS]
00:39:10 ◼ ► me I've never seen the app outside of a screenshot I think of one on one of St T. Cories posts. [TS]
00:39:22 ◼ ► and it has been right you know I think this shows more than anything recently that you know there were there were [TS]
00:39:32 ◼ ► and there is there was always like the kind of business side of enterprise tech stuff that was mostly invisible world [TS]
00:39:37 ◼ ► to those of us outside of it that you know we don't really care like if s.a.p bought Oracle it would be a major deal to [TS]
00:39:45 ◼ ► a lot of people but consumers wouldn't know who these people are and wouldn't care. [TS]
00:39:50 ◼ ► This I think shows that the consumer tech world is now so big you know what SAP is as far as I know and I. [TS]
00:40:00 ◼ ► I know very little about I really shouldn't be talking about it but as far as I know it is huge in lots of places [TS]
00:40:08 ◼ ► And so as far as I know at any rate it's really massive were everywhere else at least [TS]
00:40:18 ◼ ► and the fact is it's it got so big to be a major threat to Facebook and Facebook also you know so. [TS]
00:40:30 ◼ ► and There's a few other apps that do this like there's a line and there's a couple of [TS]
00:40:34 ◼ ► but I think I think this is the biggest worldwide I think I'm not sure about that. [TS]
00:40:39 ◼ ► But what this really shows you know S.M.S. Is extremely valuable and Facebook want. [TS]
00:40:44 ◼ ► Facebook has wanted to own that they want to they want it when you say it's the messenger [TS]
00:40:50 ◼ ► and I think that's pretty much the reason for this that Facebook saw this major market. [TS]
00:41:00 ◼ ► And Facebook wants in on that and Facebook is not a part of that and it's not some kind of standard protocol like S.M.S. [TS]
00:41:07 ◼ ► Was then they're kind of locked out and it could actually work against them to not own this in the future. [TS]
00:41:13 ◼ ► You know if all the socialization ister is happening on something that someone else controls [TS]
00:41:19 ◼ ► and to keep Facebook out of that's pretty bad for them so I think this there's no question why Facebook would want this. [TS]
00:41:32 ◼ ► As for the finances I have no idea people who are more no more knowledgeable about the stuff than they seem to seem to [TS]
00:41:42 ◼ ► but I think it just really shows the tech world is so big now that it's such a massive collection of multiple [TS]
00:41:53 ◼ ► or it's so big that extremely major things like this can happen in it and most of us don't know anything. [TS]
00:42:00 ◼ ► and you know the idea of having like a tech show that comments on everything in the world tech is completely outdated [TS]
00:42:05 ◼ ► now because the world tech is too big and like one show not only doesn't have time for that kind of thing [TS]
00:42:11 ◼ ► but even the host on the show like you can't you can't get enough hosts on a show taping experts all these areas were [TS]
00:42:21 ◼ ► You know I agree the only reason I think that maybe we don't understand this is how many how many friends do you have [TS]
00:42:28 ◼ ► Marco that you communicate with on a regular basis regular enough that you would desire to send them text messages that [TS]
00:42:47 ◼ ► Well but the thing of it is is that the United States lives in a very kind of sheltered the right word [TS]
00:43:03 ◼ ► In Europe it's very easy to go to another country because all the countries in Europe are the size of Rhode Island [TS]
00:43:12 ◼ ► But anyway the point is the point is locating a side is that there's a lot more international contact in Europe [TS]
00:43:23 ◼ ► and so it would not be surprising to me if if it was a much more important thing to have international text messaging [TS]
00:43:33 ◼ ► between countries and I know I have a friend that lives in Wales and he happens to be American but he lives in Wales [TS]
00:43:39 ◼ ► and a half ago maybe two years ago he begged me to install Viber which was some equivalent to what's happened that [TS]
00:43:54 ◼ ► and I know that I wouldn't talk to for example my curly nearly as much as I do it wasn't for the fact that he you know. [TS]
00:44:00 ◼ ► Can I messaged back and forth and I message was doomed to never be this thing because you couldn't do it on Android. [TS]
00:44:06 ◼ ► And the advantage of what's happened all environ all these other things is that they are cross-platform so by by virtue [TS]
00:44:13 ◼ ► and being cross platform which are two things that don't matter that much to the three of us the cross-platform part [TS]
00:44:20 ◼ ► and certainly don't matter that much to us in the international part I don't think we were ever really in a position [TS]
00:44:35 ◼ ► but nearly everyone paid everyone that I know pays it in fact I was one of the big holdouts to not get an unlimited [TS]
00:44:43 ◼ ► text messaging plan and even I eventually caved. I don't know three years ago four years ago something like that. [TS]
00:44:59 ◼ ► I still have an unlimited texting plan which will surprise you don't you don't really have a cell phone. [TS]
00:45:11 ◼ ► Now is because the carriers have removed most sensible options to force you to pay to pay more money. [TS]
00:45:23 ◼ ► and file is pushing extremely hard anybody who doesn't have all the services you know that is similar with protest [TS]
00:45:29 ◼ ► plans where I'm still using this grandfathered like five dollar a month for a few hundred text message plan because I I [TS]
00:45:39 ◼ ► but you know if you had to start a new line today your only choice basically is like no texts [TS]
00:45:44 ◼ ► and pay for each one which usually ends up being a lot or unlimited like in the U.S. [TS]
00:46:04 ◼ ► but that we can't seem to get an A in a nice pleasant way like more people want to talk to each other like the [TS]
00:46:15 ◼ ► and artificial barriers the real barriers where that you know the power of the president to be there [TS]
00:46:20 ◼ ► and then international calling it like of course I can delay for you know the distances traveled that was weird for [TS]
00:46:27 ◼ ► and then the artificial barriers Well no kind of real to it like a long distance fees because all costs more money to [TS]
00:46:35 ◼ ► but in the long distance fees scaled up on a scale that wasn't a portion of the cost of making the call that was all [TS]
00:46:43 ◼ ► and so instant messaging with the advent of the Internet is like well you know now we don't need to pay long distance [TS]
00:46:47 ◼ ► fees I can talk immediately to someone in another country this is a paper you can do e-mail you know the one that kind [TS]
00:46:52 ◼ ► of sort of worked out although you know that terrible secure decisions lead to spam [TS]
00:46:57 ◼ ► but at least there's only sort of one email but instant message there was tons of instant messaging client [TS]
00:47:05 ◼ ► and all that stupid churn between I think you and I am in Yahoo Instant Messenger and M.S.N. [TS]
00:47:09 ◼ ► and Skype and like all these different networks each Sometimes getting critical mass [TS]
00:47:14 ◼ ► and nothing will ever be as big as I think you and I remember my C Q number till the day I die [TS]
00:47:18 ◼ ► and then it just goes away and the name is big and everyone the name and all my friends are on AIM and then S.M.S. [TS]
00:47:23 ◼ ► and everyone's texting like all these things are churning around the basic desire we have to communicate to each other [TS]
00:47:31 ◼ ► in more or less real time with maybe a little bit of asynchronous stuff allowed like [TS]
00:47:42 ◼ ► and Whatsapp was taking advantage of I go as I messages are a feeling where they charge you ten cents for the stupid [TS]
00:47:47 ◼ ► things that they're piggybacking on analog cell signals anyway back in the day you know I was like it was free for the [TS]
00:47:51 ◼ ► carriers and they would say we can charge people ten cents we think we'll make a mint and they did [TS]
00:47:55 ◼ ► but that was an artificial back that people start to realize I was out of it was no reason to hate our son. [TS]
00:48:00 ◼ ► As it always struck me as like you were charging money for something that should not cost much [TS]
00:48:03 ◼ ► but people found a valuable so they paid and then as soon as people could bypass that with Whatsapp and vibe in line [TS]
00:48:10 ◼ ► and all the other apps we have access to the public Internet over the data network the same cell providers give us a [TS]
00:48:16 ◼ ► or paper a texting plan well because all my friends aren't actually the room texting each other whatever well whatsapp [TS]
00:48:22 ◼ ► and the other apps like it got enough people to say hey come over here it's cheaper or free [TS]
00:48:30 ◼ ► and we can eliminate all these other artificial barriers and everything will be good [TS]
00:48:34 ◼ ► but really that was just another private company now being swallowed up by another private company like I don't feel [TS]
00:48:39 ◼ ► like we're making progress there is just shifting around us just like this this big you know it's like a pile of chips [TS]
00:48:45 ◼ ► on the table and we're shoving the chips toward this corner OK now towards that corner for that corner [TS]
00:48:49 ◼ ► and it never is it landing in a place where if you like is there a sustainable way that we can all talk to each other [TS]
00:49:02 ◼ ► or anyone can implement it like it's so hard to get to even a solution is crappy the malware we kind of all agree on [TS]
00:49:09 ◼ ► the protocols even though the protocols of terrible need to discourage of spam even that sometimes I think well at [TS]
00:49:21 ◼ ► or so some new e-mail service coming up like oh I can't tell you now because I'm on the G. [TS]
00:49:27 ◼ ► and you're on the Hummel email we can send him across because an email to a cello competition for the front end client [TS]
00:49:40 ◼ ► and I think Facebook buying whatsapp doesn't bring us any closer to that goal which makes me sad. [TS]
00:49:46 ◼ ► And there's also you know I think I mean I've been beating this drum a little bit recently [TS]
00:50:07 ◼ ► That's all this was is Facebook got freaked out and has now neutralized a competitor [TS]
00:50:17 ◼ ► and it just seems like the more like these the Web Giants are so giant these days that they can afford to buy pretty [TS]
00:50:30 ◼ ► but they can afford to buy pretty much anybody who ever becomes a threat to their business [TS]
00:50:40 ◼ ► and progress that we're seeing in our industry because you know it's pretty much impossible at most most big tech [TS]
00:50:47 ◼ ► startups who are doing very well are going to have a really hard time turning down a multiple billion dollar offer of a [TS]
00:51:06 ◼ ► and willpower to buy a multi-billion dollar company it gives them all assurances that they're not going to really be [TS]
00:51:17 ◼ ► and not take that route like Twitter did that most recently where they just went for the I.P.O. Instead. So far right. [TS]
00:51:29 ◼ ► but be sad at what this actually does to the big picture where there is so much less competition in progress. [TS]
00:51:40 ◼ ► If your business is based on like everybody being on your platform like if you're trying to be a protocol like e-mail [TS]
00:51:49 ◼ ► and so many people on Facebook that it's like their their goal is you know everyone should be on Facebook. [TS]
00:52:00 ◼ ► Find the other thing that is going to get enough critical mass that we can never compete with it no matter how good we [TS]
00:52:07 ◼ ► make our product and buy it before it gets that critical mass and become so expensive [TS]
00:52:14 ◼ ► and what because they always what they want to buy it like they want to be sure that it would be something that they [TS]
00:52:19 ◼ ► couldn't compete with like look you know Instagram's got too much mass like no matter how good we make pictures [TS]
00:52:24 ◼ ► features we're never going to pull that Instagram people where they've gotten too big. [TS]
00:52:28 ◼ ► We need to snap them up now and maybe they will do a little bit along and Instagram too [TS]
00:52:32 ◼ ► but they don't want to buy all these companies like oh my god they're a threat they're going to buy them for like five [TS]
00:52:35 ◼ ► hundred million dollars and they never would have been a threat they never would've done anyway it's so hard to tell. [TS]
00:52:39 ◼ ► Again getting back to the unpredictability of success once you cross some threshold of value [TS]
00:52:44 ◼ ► and Whatsapp like it's that type of situation where it's like look how big they are [TS]
00:52:49 ◼ ► and there's no way Facebook messaging is ever going to pull those people away like they've got the critical mass in the [TS]
00:52:56 ◼ ► Our only option is to buy them because that's you that's what you do you know that's the final play [TS]
00:53:00 ◼ ► and you would hope that they would go for that from there again from the perspective of the strategy. [TS]
00:53:09 ◼ ► but it's actually worse to say well they're too big now I'm not going to basics team billion dollars let's just let [TS]
00:53:14 ◼ ► them go because they're never going to you know they're never going to make a messaging product that dethrones whatsapp [TS]
00:53:20 ◼ ► once that'll be thrown by something else but probably not Facebook So yeah the strategy [TS]
00:53:28 ◼ ► but late is better than never because if we just ignore them then no they'll be there on doing like one of my space I [TS]
00:53:35 ◼ ► don't you know the timing has worked up a lot of my space had the wherewithal to offer a newly born Facebook before it [TS]
00:53:43 ◼ ► was anything another money to live in is better. We'd all be talking about My Space by about that now. [TS]
00:53:49 ◼ ► Those darn monkey those darn butterfly wings laughing but anyway you get the idea. [TS]
00:53:54 ◼ ► Like that's the strength of your one of those companies were like are the only way we succeed is if we get everything. [TS]
00:54:00 ◼ ► Birth in the world like if we offer a feature that's the future that everybody in the world that they use for that you [TS]
00:54:04 ◼ ► want to summary pictures and tell them about your kid's birthday you have to do it on Facebook [TS]
00:54:11 ◼ ► and those somebody's there are hundreds of millions of somebodies. We've screwed up we need to buy that company. [TS]
00:54:16 ◼ ► And yeah that's from a consumer's perspective a terrible But if you are acting as Facebook that's that's their strategy. [TS]
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00:54:55 ◼ ► and then they even have as Katie pointed out last time they even have like the scrolling transcript on the side so that [TS]
00:55:02 ◼ ► You can scroll around and you can even click on a point the transcript will seek to that point in a video. [TS]
00:55:09 ◼ ► Here's the deal you pay twenty five bucks a month flat rate for unlimited access to their entire catalog over two [TS]
00:55:19 ◼ ► So the teachers of these things are experts in their field working professionals not just like some random person on [TS]
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00:55:54 ◼ ► or how to use Quick Books how to use Power Point effectively even media production stuff. [TS]
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00:56:50 ◼ ► and Star seven to trial and watching videos you know anything. Browse the whole catalog. [TS]
00:56:55 ◼ ► You will be you'll be shocked how many videos they have. It's really quite impressive. [TS]
00:57:06 ◼ ► Thanks a lot to Linda for sponsorship once again they are really a great service and and I personally have used them [TS]
00:57:12 ◼ ► You know I looked at them a couple weeks back when they first sponsored I saw this really long list of videos [TS]
00:57:27 ◼ ► and out come to find out there were eleven good Jillian videos waiting for me I just hadn't navigated away from the new [TS]
00:57:40 ◼ ► You know like pick an application will learn how to use better or pick a permanent widget you want to learn [TS]
00:57:51 ◼ ► when you have a huge selection like that if you had to pay like even like a dollar video you'd worry like oh is this [TS]
00:58:00 ◼ ► Even it was just a dollar video you can spend all the time fretting this is a flat fee just like sit there [TS]
00:58:12 ◼ ► and I think we should talk about it this week before it becomes so stale that it's not worth talking about. [TS]
00:58:22 ◼ ► when everyone in the eye less development community says oh objectives he's objective see sucks [TS]
00:58:28 ◼ ► and we really need to get over it we need to get away from it. We need to move on to something better. [TS]
00:58:34 ◼ ► And this was originally Well in my exposure originally posited by John's piece called Copeland twenty ten [TS]
00:58:43 ◼ ► and I guess John would you like to describe simply what Copeland twenty ten was saying would can you summarize that for [TS]
00:58:51 ◼ ► us. Yeah I think I don't have a link in here but one that I read that two thousand and five or something. [TS]
00:59:01 ◼ ► and the point of my blog post was that I was I was worried about what Apple was going to do with its language in A.P.I. [TS]
00:59:09 ◼ ► and Going forward because it seemed like all those competitors were moving to sort of memory manage higher level [TS]
00:59:14 ◼ ► languages and Apple was not they were sticking with the C. Base language Objective C. This is all. [TS]
00:59:19 ◼ ► Yes two thousand and five this is all before the i Phone and for all the stuff or whatever. [TS]
00:59:23 ◼ ► And Copeland is a reference to one of Apple's many failed attempts to get a next generation operating system they had [TS]
00:59:30 ◼ ► Which is a really old to go operating system where any application can write any part of memory including the parts [TS]
00:59:38 ◼ ► and so which meant that badly behaved app that started writing memory to a bad pointer would just scribble over random [TS]
00:59:48 ◼ ► and everyone else was getting protected memory and pre-emptive multitasking where the O. S. Could take the C.P.U. [TS]
00:59:53 ◼ ► Away from a process that wasn't true on the old mac operating system less the process yielded so it had these technical [TS]
01:00:04 ◼ ► and Copeland was the highest profile failure I have a book on my shelf to my right that Goebbels going to America was [TS]
01:00:12 ◼ ► and it's a book published by Apple with an Apple logo from Apple Press describing the next generation. [TS]
01:00:19 ◼ ► and you know Copeland basically that operating system never shipped Apple cruise ship something called Magaw was eight [TS]
01:00:26 ◼ ► There were other failed attempts and other weird partnerships and this is all the dark times of Apple's existence [TS]
01:00:37 ◼ ► and come up with whatever it's going to plan for its next generation programming language an A.P.I. [TS]
01:00:42 ◼ ► You could find itself in the distant future like the year twenty ten you know our founding of two thousand. [TS]
01:00:51 ◼ ► and if they don't get their act together they could find themselves in a situation just like they were with Copeland [TS]
01:00:58 ◼ ► and they don't have a viable plan to get it because it's not so easy to snap your fingers [TS]
01:01:07 ◼ ► I also wrote another article in two thousand and ten called Coban Point Henry visitors explaining what I got wrong [TS]
01:01:13 ◼ ► and why about you know about people about the year twenty ten because people say Well here we aren't trying ten apples [TS]
01:01:25 ◼ ► but in general the the major failings like any time you try to break if you just pick some round number in the future [TS]
01:01:29 ◼ ► that seems so distance then really it's only five years away and that's just you know bad thinking [TS]
01:01:37 ◼ ► OK so the comp topic came back up again and I'm not sure why it came back up again [TS]
01:01:41 ◼ ► and I'm not sure what people are saying about it's different than what's been said before maybe you can enlighten me. [TS]
01:01:46 ◼ ► Well there were these two post there was one by one by Steve stress a little put in the show notes [TS]
01:01:52 ◼ ► and basically with the you know just saying we have to see and with a few a few things that we need there. We better. [TS]
01:02:00 ◼ ► And then our friend Guy English wrote a post in response to these that basically said [TS]
01:02:06 ◼ ► and forgive me if I'm butchering the argument that basically said like it's easy to like can we even say we need [TS]
01:02:11 ◼ ► something better. But we need more specifics like what exactly needs to be better and how would that work. [TS]
01:02:19 ◼ ► Like you know it's easy to just say oh well we need something that's higher level. [TS]
01:02:25 ◼ ► OK Well it does that mean garbage collection of that mean you know reference counting in a different way like you know [TS]
01:02:30 ◼ ► like that me in a dynamic type does that mean like all these all these decisions about higher level languages [TS]
01:02:38 ◼ ► and it seems like not a lot of the arguments contain answers to questions like that it's just like oh we have to have [TS]
01:02:44 ◼ ► something that's newer and that will by default be better which I think is itself a flawed argument. [TS]
01:02:52 ◼ ► Yeah it seems like you know it's tough because I have tremendous respect for for Ashley and for Steve [TS]
01:02:58 ◼ ► but it seemed very hand wavy and this argument tends to go around regularly in the West about in circles [TS]
01:03:06 ◼ ► and it seems like every year or two everyone gets all upset about the fact that we're still writing in Objective C. [TS]
01:03:14 ◼ ► but This is a problem that guy seemed to have and I concur with it is OK That's lovely that you think that Objective C. [TS]
01:03:27 ◼ ► and you know before our automatic reference counting and before Grand Central Dispatch in blocks. [TS]
01:03:37 ◼ ► and I probably would have said that you know not having closures in twenty twelve twenty thirteen that's a problem [TS]
01:03:44 ◼ ► but I don't remember when blocks became a thing but it was I want to say twenty twelve [TS]
01:03:55 ◼ ► and important Vance events in the last couple years that I really think brought objective see. [TS]
01:04:00 ◼ ► Two position where it's it's relatively modern in its arcane it's own archaic ways [TS]
01:04:09 ◼ ► and so I don't I don't really see what's so terrible about it and I can sell you that cocoa [TS]
01:04:26 ◼ ► Sharp I really do but the done a frame work while very solid is nowhere near as good as Coco and Coco touch [TS]
01:04:32 ◼ ► and so I don't really see what the urgent burning need is to get rid of Jack to see that I have had the urgent burning [TS]
01:04:41 ◼ ► need to get rid of a victory in two thousand and five that I still feel and really what I was writing there. [TS]
01:04:50 ◼ ► The audience that was not so much developers trying to tell them that the language they're using is bad or something [TS]
01:04:56 ◼ ► and I think that by the time I was getting a little bit panicked about this whole part of it is kind of like you know [TS]
01:05:01 ◼ ► how someone who grew up in the depression is always panicked about money and worried about not having enough food [TS]
01:05:07 ◼ ► If you live through the whole Copeland disaster obviously going to be a little bit more panicky about oh oh my god what [TS]
01:05:13 ◼ ► is what is Apple's plan for a Texan aeration whatever because I don't want to see that thing that I'm you know the [TS]
01:05:19 ◼ ► but a lot of that is that's where that's coming from someone who experience there that you know a company that they are [TS]
01:05:25 ◼ ► mired in thought should be successful almost die because they failed to think about stuff like that time [TS]
01:05:36 ◼ ► and my point would be like if I was in charge of Apple I would have had starting and like starting basically [TS]
01:05:43 ◼ ► when javac say you do it or totally asleep at the wheel and Java comes on the scene. [TS]
01:05:47 ◼ ► I would have had multiple teams multiple small teams of the fanciest you know computer science Ph D. Whatever. [TS]
01:05:56 ◼ ► Maybe these teams don't know about each other maybe they're on different continents you know. [TS]
01:06:05 ◼ ► All those things and most of those teams I imagine would fail and produce nothing useful [TS]
01:06:09 ◼ ► but you know you're Apple you have all this money the empire the modern apple budget you know like maybe maybe the old [TS]
01:06:17 ◼ ► But at this point Apple could have ten teams with you know the ten best people money can buy all working on this [TS]
01:06:23 ◼ ► and the reason I bring this up is not so much. We need to replace Objective C. Next year. [TS]
01:06:27 ◼ ► W W C twenty sixteen Apple doesn't replace coke or Objective C. They're doomed Of course not right. [TS]
01:06:39 ◼ ► and you have to bring it out not just in these little these little labs in these competing teams [TS]
01:06:43 ◼ ► but then you actually have to build real absolute Didn't you have to sort of like it's just so hard to do this [TS]
01:06:47 ◼ ► transition so hard to make it harder to make the language and on time people focus on the language and runtime so much. [TS]
01:06:55 ◼ ► But that's kind of like you know that's mostly just picking from you know what do you want what features do you want [TS]
01:07:02 ◼ ► That matches up with the language because I've always said that you can't just have a new language you have to have the [TS]
01:07:07 ◼ ► and Languishing with it and cocoa has been in development basically since like the eighty's [TS]
01:07:11 ◼ ► and it's taken that long for a cover to get from where it was in the eighty's to where it is now. [TS]
01:07:15 ◼ ► So assume whatever thing you're going to make to replace cocoa is going to take at least as long to get at least as [TS]
01:07:21 ◼ ► good you know in terms of rail routes you know. So you're not going to jump from OK Objective C. [TS]
01:07:30 ◼ ► and It will be better than Coakley it won't be out of the good will be worse in the beginning just like it was ten was [TS]
01:07:44 ◼ ► I know how long it takes to do this I know how badly wrong you can go I mean like. [TS]
01:07:53 ◼ ► and a common language runtime which I would say is the biggest success story hasn't been a clean win in terms of getting [TS]
01:08:06 ◼ ► Yeah and it just and they put tons of money and tons of like you know you can't wait you can't say like Objective C. [TS]
01:08:20 ◼ ► and assume you're going to fail a couple times before you do because I think those are safe bets. [TS]
01:08:24 ◼ ► Someone in the chat room posted oh maybe to Apple's is holding its cards close to his vest. That's entirely possible. [TS]
01:08:34 ◼ ► or people who they kill after their three years are up of they don't produce something and they hide the bodies [TS]
01:08:41 ◼ ► That's where I'm coming from with this not so much from the perspective of like I'm developing today [TS]
01:08:48 ◼ ► but I feel like I understand how incredibly hard it's going to be to make something that's better than this [TS]
01:08:54 ◼ ► and the second part of this is I think a lot of people don't want to sign up for a maybe is not relevant to them is [TS]
01:09:01 ◼ ► and I think a lot of people are either are of the opinion that this day will not come in their lifetime which may be a [TS]
01:09:07 ◼ ► very safe bet in which case you know they feel justified in saying look I'll be dead or retired [TS]
01:09:11 ◼ ► when this happened so I don't have to worry about it so it's not on my radar at all. [TS]
01:09:14 ◼ ► And how it may be the current leaders of apple think I'll be dead or retired but on this happens [TS]
01:09:19 ◼ ► but I'm I'm thinking longer term. Like yes I am I and everyone know I'm going to die. [TS]
01:09:28 ◼ ► when it isn't acceptable to have a pointer that you can scribble all over the memory. [TS]
01:09:32 ◼ ► Yes just of your own memory of your own process Sure but that's barbaric. That's going away. [TS]
01:09:39 ◼ ► and a lot of people think well the timing is not in my lifetime therefore I don't care about it [TS]
01:09:49 ◼ ► but someone an apple presumably should care about Bill goes away even if they're retired Well I don't know maybe maybe [TS]
01:09:55 ◼ ► I'm thinking too long term maybe this is not how human beings think and I just have to accept that. [TS]
01:10:00 ◼ ► Apple's going to go under in seventy five years because they're never going to get away from Jack to see [TS]
01:10:04 ◼ ► and someone else is going to replace them and that's the way of the world and I should just be OK with that. [TS]
01:10:10 ◼ ► and that's why I think calls for like what specifically do you want to whatever as many people pointed out that's what [TS]
01:10:14 ◼ ► Apple's supposed to figure out it's not our job to come up with Apple's next generation language [TS]
01:10:28 ◼ ► and it should have always been obvious is the way it always goes to higher level languages so that's what I'm fretting [TS]
01:10:33 ◼ ► about and it's kind of an esoteric concern that no one really cares about but the rank [TS]
01:10:37 ◼ ► and file people have to Jill exactly see every day they see what other languages are like [TS]
01:10:42 ◼ ► and those other languages have peakers that everyone agrees are good that they wish they had an Objective C. [TS]
01:10:47 ◼ ► and It's like well you can't just have that feature you can just have the you know the native regular expressions [TS]
01:11:03 ◼ ► That's what they see them in other language they see them in contemporary languages that are doing similar things [TS]
01:11:15 ◼ ► but this is not something you can begin from the outside it can be a bunch of developers complaining about Objective C. [TS]
01:11:20 ◼ ► They can't be developers leaving the platform because they don't like to see it wasn't going to happen as long as they [TS]
01:11:26 ◼ ► So this is something that Apple needs to undertake and that's always been my my thrust with the whole Copeland point [TS]
01:11:34 ◼ ► It's trying to tell Apple what to do and we know how successful that usually is right [TS]
01:11:38 ◼ ► but the problem is is that as someone who has a leg in two worlds there are definitely things about Objective C. [TS]
01:12:03 ◼ ► and you'll see sharp has gotten better with that over the years but Apple did a great job. [TS]
01:12:08 ◼ ► Now granted the syntax is unbelievably bad and there is an entire website whose U.R.L. [TS]
01:12:18 ◼ ► but there's an entire website based on the syntax for how to write a blog how to write blocks properly. [TS]
01:12:27 ◼ ► but nevertheless there are things about Cocoa this antiquated language that we all want to throw away. [TS]
01:12:35 ◼ ► but there's things about object of seeing cocoa as a as a pair that is supposedly science equated that I would love to [TS]
01:12:47 ◼ ► but I don't see the urgency that perhaps a lot of other people see I concur that it needs to be being worked on [TS]
01:13:00 ◼ ► and then I don't think you're saying that either but it seems like it's still a little bit down the road to me. [TS]
01:13:14 ◼ ► Which there are well like the urgent they should be at Apple and I understand for enterprise N.T. [TS]
01:13:18 ◼ ► Pattern they're defending against is if you spend all your time worrying about your stupid next generation thing then [TS]
01:13:27 ◼ ► or so about focus I can fully understand though that's that's a sucker's bet you'd not want to spend all your time [TS]
01:13:34 ◼ ► These crazy new languages you're taking your eye off the ball you should be making the product that you have now better [TS]
01:13:39 ◼ ► like what they're doing with object is the an el of the EM like us exactly what they're supposed to be doing [TS]
01:13:43 ◼ ► and any effort they spend so they might think any effort they expend on like what is the next generation pie in the sky [TS]
01:13:49 ◼ ► architecture astronaut crappy thing that we're doing that is just like that's not in our D.N.A. [TS]
01:13:54 ◼ ► We don't worry about that or whatever. And I understand the urge not to fall into that. [TS]
01:14:00 ◼ ► But the other trap is we will never have to do that we will get there by increment starting from C. [TS]
01:14:06 ◼ ► Pointers forever until we don't and that will somehow make that transition like. How do you get from point A to Point B. [TS]
01:14:11 ◼ ► Like it's kind of like what they tried to do with the classic macro us Copeland was like we can try to keep kind of [TS]
01:14:16 ◼ ► some kind of compatibility and old style mac apps will be able to scribble all over memory [TS]
01:14:21 ◼ ► but will make these new style absolute run on this new kernel that are protected from each other [TS]
01:14:26 ◼ ► and eventually all the old Absolute go away I'll be able to translate it was an idea to transition into protected [TS]
01:14:32 ◼ ► and pre-emptive multitasking maintaining backward compatibility with existing classic apps by allowing them to still [TS]
01:14:39 ◼ ► But just like the device drivers and new apps wouldn't like it was it was a hybrid type incremental solution [TS]
01:14:44 ◼ ► and it's not to say they can pull off because it was incremental is just to say that it I think history has shown that [TS]
01:14:51 ◼ ► the thing that the next generation thing will be very different from the previous thing it won't be the previous thing [TS]
01:15:00 ◼ ► It will be something entirely very often something entirely different from a different company which is not what you [TS]
01:15:04 ◼ ► want. Apple managed to do it to itself by saying Well sort of like we sent our C.E.O. [TS]
01:15:08 ◼ ► Away and I did a five and he made another company and he made no new O.S.'s and we're just going to bring that back [TS]
01:15:17 ◼ ► Very clever anyway it was a complete replacement. Like people jacked it on Twitter. [TS]
01:15:21 ◼ ► I was citing like I was ten as a complete rewrite of the mac operating system from the perspective of the app it is a [TS]
01:15:28 ◼ ► different operating system it has a compatibility layer that was you know you know virtualize for Classic apps [TS]
01:15:34 ◼ ► and everybody but holy cow is it different than Classic MacOS Unix for crying out loud. So incredibly different. [TS]
01:15:44 ◼ ► and most often the thing that replaces it was radically different and also from a different company. [TS]
01:15:48 ◼ ► So Apple doesn't want that to happen if they don't want the next thing to be radically different [TS]
01:15:53 ◼ ► They need to balance their desire not to take their eyes off the current ball which I agree with with the reality of [TS]
01:16:05 ◼ ► but it's like whenever you think it is in the future I don't think I've never met anyone who says no pointers are going [TS]
01:16:12 ◼ ► and if they DRAM is a bad pointer they're going to scramble her memory like that if you're not going to have them write [TS]
01:16:17 ◼ ► an apple begun then it is not like I guess it just depends on what time horizon you consider fruitful to think about [TS]
01:16:24 ◼ ► and I'm thinking about time horizons that I myself would have to say are perhaps not for me for me to be thinking about [TS]
01:16:30 ◼ ► but that's that's those are the type of things I think about I think someone an apple somewhere should be high minded [TS]
01:16:42 ◼ ► See I'm I'm a lot less convinced that this is inevitable that that a progression like this has to happen even within a [TS]
01:16:50 ◼ ► time span of like you know twenty years thirty years about two hundred three hundred pick your time scale everyone [TS]
01:16:55 ◼ ► agrees is going to happen right. Well sure but you know I think so he does argue over the number that's it. [TS]
01:17:06 ◼ ► and The tools that we have for it have are so much more advanced than where it was five or ten years ago [TS]
01:17:19 ◼ ► Is as far away from what people want as they think when they write a blog post like this. [TS]
01:17:24 ◼ ► Like if you look at a lot of the complaints are a lot of thing people say it needs a lot of them are our A.P.I. [TS]
01:17:29 ◼ ► Is not part of the language a lot of them are like really fairly minor cosmetic details almost And you know a lot of it [TS]
01:17:38 ◼ ► and you know looking at looking at the history of programming languages there's there's this assumption that you've [TS]
01:17:44 ◼ ► said that most of these posts are based on which is that everything always moves higher higher level higher you know as [TS]
01:17:49 ◼ ► time goes on but that's not necessarily true. Stuff moves higher level at the beginning. [TS]
01:17:55 ◼ ► It's true with bumps obviously it's not a straight line but it's true. The trend line. Sure. [TS]
01:18:00 ◼ ► There are certain things the kind of settle in and become and become kind a locked in [TS]
01:18:04 ◼ ► and I think one of the one of the greatest examples of this is see you know see has has been around for ever. [TS]
01:18:12 ◼ ► Is no part of it is new except blocks and it you know no part of that in general use is is really that modern [TS]
01:18:21 ◼ ► and yet it's been around forever and it's everywhere and any and every language usually languages are written in C. [TS]
01:18:31 ◼ ► Modules that can be added on anything that high performance is required is usually written in C. [TS]
01:18:41 ◼ ► but but You have to you know it's going like it's not going to go away the same with some wouldn't go away [TS]
01:18:45 ◼ ► and tell you the machine go didn't go away like people running game console someone's writing some hexadecimal numbers [TS]
01:18:50 ◼ ► then Norma Jean got right by and saw me feel like a layer cake but C. Will lose its primacy eventual E. [TS]
01:18:56 ◼ ► The same way assembly lost its primacy is the way you program computers the same way the machine code it sees as having [TS]
01:19:05 ◼ ► but certainly assembly had a longer life than writing machine go because it was so incredibly unfriendly [TS]
01:19:11 ◼ ► but like all you're arguing about a timescale you think like oh this is a long plateau you're right it is along the [TS]
01:19:18 ◼ ► but I think the the systems that we have now that do use higher level languages are out there enough to sow a little [TS]
01:19:25 ◼ ► discontent even then just the regular rank and file people who find it like so much less verbose. [TS]
01:19:31 ◼ ► Like the sort of the same operation done in a higher level language like Python or Ruby [TS]
01:19:37 ◼ ► and it's so much more clear what I'm doing it's just is just more concise it's a higher level [TS]
01:19:44 ◼ ► I could be more clear with my intent that even things like go where you know implicit parallelism [TS]
01:19:50 ◼ ► and other other abstractions that allow you to express yourself in a way that would not be possible in C. [TS]
01:19:57 ◼ ► Even in a language that's not particularly hard. Evelyn see because go is very similar to C. [TS]
01:20:03 ◼ ► and stuff like that because of all the existing high level languages that people do other kinds of development [TS]
01:20:08 ◼ ► and it allows them to see what the future might look like even if we're not quite ready for it today [TS]
01:20:14 ◼ ► and I think that's I mean that's that's the beginning of the writing on the wall for C.B.S. [TS]
01:20:30 ◼ ► But like you don't want to read them in any year number that you can envision either being alive during or [TS]
01:20:35 ◼ ► or in vision like anyone you know being alive during And that's maybe that's just human nature [TS]
01:20:44 ◼ ► and their discontinuity is where suddenly you make a great leap forward because some reason because you know an [TS]
01:20:48 ◼ ► earthquake wiped out Apple and Google and some new company has to rise from the ashes [TS]
01:20:55 ◼ ► or I'm trying to think of a crazy language but I think your or your desire not to think about anything beyond C. [TS]
01:21:04 ◼ ► May be well founded because for your entire career you'll never have to think about that but your grandkids probably. [TS]
01:21:10 ◼ ► and I think I totally agree that given a long enough time scale you're right that given a longer time scale this will [TS]
01:21:19 ◼ ► but I think that I think it's pretty likely that by the time that happens Apple might not be that relevant [TS]
01:21:27 ◼ ► or we might not be running the same or less even you know like well they don't listen to me of course they're right. [TS]
01:21:33 ◼ ► Like you know I think you know there's a lot of things that that keep Objective C. [TS]
01:21:39 ◼ ► As it is in power you know and part of it is you know that there's the whole tool chain that kind of requires And [TS]
01:21:46 ◼ ► but even know the reasons why things that are compiled down to get to see various toolkits [TS]
01:21:51 ◼ ► and stuff haven't really been huge is mostly because you know here to see as I said before it's it's close enough in a [TS]
01:22:08 ◼ ► and then once they get familiar with it it just as mattering because you know every language look we have been familiar [TS]
01:22:15 ◼ ► and I think so I think it's close enough to a lot of what people want I think a lot of the alternatives are not clear [TS]
01:22:23 ◼ ► cut like if if you say OK well you shouldn't even to think about memory ever again OK well then you know which memory [TS]
01:22:32 ◼ ► You know the question of types and how they are implemented that's not an easy question. [TS]
01:22:37 ◼ ► But also we've got this this great like reset with the rise of mobile where efficiency is certainly a lot more [TS]
01:22:45 ◼ ► important than it was in two thousand five thousand five your billion desktop app. [TS]
01:22:51 ◼ ► You know then the new C.P.U.'s are so powerful back then for desktop apps for most types of use that you could do [TS]
01:22:57 ◼ ► anything with the language you have a language having tons of overhead and tons of dynamic safety stuff and it be fine. [TS]
01:23:03 ◼ ► Whereas in Mobile that was a great reset and obviously mobiles getting faster it will it will keep getting faster. [TS]
01:23:14 ◼ ► but it sure has helped Iowa so far that most of the after people use are written and a very little of the language [TS]
01:23:22 ◼ ► or these are compiled down to a very low level language so that they have a lot less overhead than say Android apps you [TS]
01:23:29 ◼ ► know and there's different things like just in time comp compilation that have been very advanced in recent years [TS]
01:23:44 ◼ ► and what's different in mobile is that the power budget is so much tighter that it actually matters not only for speed [TS]
01:23:51 ◼ ► or for battery life and so this will continue to matter for a while and you're right. [TS]
01:24:00 ◼ ► I think I'd say we probably have a good ten years at least where this will continue to matter [TS]
01:24:05 ◼ ► and where it would be unwise sticking around numbers I think we have another seven point two years. [TS]
01:24:11 ◼ ► Yeah I know I know it's the same thing and they're trying to end the revisited article I felt like in two thousand [TS]
01:24:16 ◼ ► and five when I didn't see coming two thousand and five was you know the i Phone I mean who did right. [TS]
01:24:27 ◼ ► and I read it as an article I give that a twenty year delay it adds at least a decade you know because yeah all the [TS]
01:24:32 ◼ ► things you Senator with mobile being low level such a massive advantage in mobile like that why Apple was able to do [TS]
01:24:42 ◼ ► They were like the java apps that are running on the stupid smartphones then there's no way you could just I got a nose [TS]
01:24:50 ◼ ► In there well if you have a language that's more efficient than Java on your phone you can do pretty amazing stuff [TS]
01:24:58 ◼ ► and it's a sustainable advantage in Apple's investing in that advantage in making Objective C. [TS]
01:25:02 ◼ ► Better in everything so I don't know how long that delays things that delays things for a long time you're right. [TS]
01:25:11 ◼ ► but not in my lifetime I always think about like it we're just talking about whatsapp [TS]
01:25:23 ◼ ► Like even just reflecting I was every time I see like the timeline of something that like oh this happened a long time [TS]
01:25:31 ◼ ► and four like you know before Facebook even existed how many years ago how old it is Facebook even how old is Instagram [TS]
01:25:37 ◼ ► all this Twitter like all these things to be accepted institutions how old is whatsapp that just cost sixteen billion [TS]
01:25:47 ◼ ► and mobiles going to going to keep us to keep Apple's advantage of actressy relevant for a long time [TS]
01:25:53 ◼ ► but in other respects that's what I'm about discontinuity like the graph is not smooth as long plateaus for nothing. [TS]
01:26:02 ◼ ► and you never know what's coming down the pike so it could be that we are all stuck with C. [TS]
01:26:10 ◼ ► But it could be that twenty years from now something dramatic happens that we didn't predict [TS]
01:26:16 ◼ ► and suddenly all sea based languages are swept under the carpet because big mazing new company that is becoming to [TS]
01:26:34 ◼ ► Well you know I was really upset at Marco because I was going to make the same plucking Tapout mobile kind of resetting [TS]
01:26:40 ◼ ► everything already made of the revisited article on twenty eight Then I now I know well OK some of Sapper did it first [TS]
01:26:45 ◼ ► time but set it both of you then but the other thing to consider is if this suppose it I watch is really a thing. [TS]
01:26:52 ◼ ► I mean that that kind of does this whole being near the metal It makes being near the metal [TS]
01:27:02 ◼ ► Well I think the power constraints of the watch are that much different than a phone. I mean probably like two X. [TS]
01:27:09 ◼ ► but Maybe not ten X. Less I don't know your but do you think you do you think you're being. [TS]
01:27:18 ◼ ► or a Common Language Runtime kind of set up is really going to be a good call on a watch. [TS]
01:27:30 ◼ ► Think there's a smaller jump going from a phone to a wearable that's probably true. [TS]
01:27:38 ◼ ► and battery powered stuff is going to be a substantial delay in making any kind of high level language [TS]
01:27:42 ◼ ► and may end up being a disadvantage to anybody who doesn't have a C. Based language but it already is. [TS]
01:27:47 ◼ ► Talk to talk to the windows so I mean it's hard to say because it's again it's kind of like the you know working [TS]
01:28:02 ◼ ► but if Microsoft had not been so incompetent its mobile strategy and had come up with an O. S. Like you know I O. [TS]
01:28:19 ◼ ► and said Why the hell are you doing this you're making everything so slow C.P.U.'s can't handle this. [TS]
01:28:23 ◼ ► There's no mobile G.P.U. They can sling as many pixels it's embarrassing and it would've reminded me of O S ten. [TS]
01:28:28 ◼ ► All that was one hundred percent true voice ten ten point no a composite of gooey running on the C.P.U. [TS]
01:28:34 ◼ ► It was slow as balls you couldn't even scroll windows full of Texas like this is your next generation operating system [TS]
01:28:53 ◼ ► or of the whole number there up to way back in the day or done something like i O. S. On C. Shop and it was slow. [TS]
01:28:58 ◼ ► That may have you know and they became successful they became you know the i Phone because they did it first [TS]
01:29:03 ◼ ► and they got in and they made this amazing product and you know eventually got good enough. [TS]
01:29:11 ◼ ► You wouldn't be able to make the argument that like oh well the only way you can do this type of thing is with a low [TS]
01:29:18 ◼ ► Sharp in the common ground time now are good enough to make something kind of fast on a phone probably would've taken [TS]
01:29:28 ◼ ► but who wouldn't have the i Phone to compare it to so we would be like oh this is good as it can possibly be like. [TS]
01:29:33 ◼ ► That's what I like the whole the whole idea that the way things currently are going where they could possibly be a very [TS]
01:29:43 ◼ ► So while I think that objective has been such a big advantage to Apple I don't think you say well you can never have a [TS]
01:29:54 ◼ ► You know but like I mean how people can do amazing things with stupid javascript just crazy lately. [TS]
01:30:03 ◼ ► and javascript are about a slow language is not designed to be fast at all so I'm I'm not convinced that that Objective [TS]
01:30:14 ◼ ► and I think even the current state of Windows Phone which as I know uses code that you know Concord native code to do [TS]
01:30:20 ◼ ► with things that have to actually be fastened same thing with Android with its native code [TS]
01:30:36 ◼ ► I think it's more that you know if you if you can have something that's this fast in this efficient it's an advantage. [TS]
01:30:44 ◼ ► and as time goes on it becomes less of an advantage proportionally but still you know it still is significant now [TS]
01:30:51 ◼ ► and you know again I just think like you know Casey even knew you were very qualified to talk about dot net You know [TS]
01:31:01 ◼ ► Sharp in that framework are very good example of the kind of thing that would that we might be moving towards although [TS]
01:31:07 ◼ ► we probably go you know hopefully another evolutionary step to that's now you know fifteen years old or whatever [TS]
01:31:16 ◼ ► and what you know with with modern literacy development are they really like is Dot Net really that much easier to use [TS]
01:31:26 ◼ ► If you had asked me a year or two ago maybe two three years ago actually I would've said yes it is considerably easier. [TS]
01:31:35 ◼ ► but it's still a lot hell of a lot more difficult than just writing the new keyword all over the place. [TS]
01:31:42 ◼ ► But given the advantage the advances of are given the advances of having closures in Objective C. [TS]
01:31:51 ◼ ► No I don't think it's really that different in the end that's kind of what I was driving at earlier. [TS]
01:31:57 ◼ ► You know there are things in Objective C. That I love. In that I miss when I write C. Sharp. [TS]
01:32:02 ◼ ► There are things that are in C. Sharp that I love that I missed when I write Objective C. [TS]
01:32:08 ◼ ► but If I were to like the first thing that jumps to mind of something that I really missed an Objective C. [TS]
01:32:18 ◼ ► or introspection which really is not necessary in is completely ancillary to the conversation we're having. [TS]
01:32:30 ◼ ► but it's no it absolutely is there just a comparatively a royal pain in the butt compared to how easy it is in some [TS]
01:32:36 ◼ ► but it changes the way the right programs like it mean think of think of writing an action actual very high level [TS]
01:32:45 ◼ ► If you have those features in there kind of built into the language in a convenient way it it informs how you write [TS]
01:32:51 ◼ ► A.P.I. Spelling Absolutely. Think of all like the ruby people writing this to be a D.S.L. [TS]
01:32:59 ◼ ► and throw that like extending the number of classes they can put like one dot times in three days not a go at all this [TS]
01:33:06 ◼ ► like now I'm saying all this stuff is good but like language features change what the A.P.I. [TS]
01:33:14 ◼ ► and I think a lot of the sort of the narrowing gap between objective seen tea shop is based on the success of the [TS]
01:33:23 ◼ ► companies that shepherd them the relative success over the past decade of Apple versus Microsoft. [TS]
01:33:32 ◼ ► and everything they have not had the dominant thriving big new platform as a tractor to pull their language A.B.I. [TS]
01:33:40 ◼ ► They have had the kind of fizzling out really doing well in the mobile market platform [TS]
01:33:45 ◼ ► and the old legacy Windows platform and a bunch of other confused the eyes you know point along [TS]
01:33:50 ◼ ► and so yet the gap is narrowing because Apple's fire and also owners with objectives [TS]
01:33:55 ◼ ► and Microsoft is another DON'T was a shock but what will you say that. But I mean C. [TS]
01:34:00 ◼ ► Sharp is making considerable strides on a regular basis and what the language yes but yeah I do that's fair point. [TS]
01:34:09 ◼ ► Has done a little better with like parallel programming for example I would argue it's not as clean [TS]
01:34:29 ◼ ► Sharp as a language is really truly incredible and I really really like it and some of the things you can do in C. [TS]
01:34:35 ◼ ► Sharp like someone brought up in the chat a minute ago link link language in the query you can do some of that with [TS]
01:34:47 ◼ ► and like I said reflection earlier some of those things are really incredible into having easy access to introspection [TS]
01:34:59 ◼ ► It makes the way you write code very different just like you said John in so I see both sides of this coin [TS]
01:35:05 ◼ ► and it's so tough I want to be more definitive and come down with a particular perspective [TS]
01:35:11 ◼ ► but I don't know I don't know I don't know what I would do if I was Apple other than put some really big nerds on it [TS]
01:35:16 ◼ ► and see what they come up with I think the link is a good example because there's this whole thing of like you know [TS]
01:35:22 ◼ ► higher level language with manage memory in these other features and native strings [TS]
01:35:29 ◼ ► and in providing you the ability to like let's try to you know link link isn't yet another attempt to sort of make it [TS]
01:35:37 ◼ ► easier to deal with big buckets of data in a language that you want to get the data out [TS]
01:35:41 ◼ ► and we want to get the data into like variables essentially in our language so we can deal with [TS]
01:35:45 ◼ ► and we want to take whatever structures we have in our language with objects or something else [TS]
01:35:49 ◼ ► and put them into some other big bucket of data probably a database like how many times have we taken a run of this [TS]
01:35:54 ◼ ► problem with object relational mapping and direct sequel queries and link with the another example and it just goes. [TS]
01:36:00 ◼ ► Show that like the features of language that we're talking about being a higher level will become a necessity it will [TS]
01:36:06 ◼ ► be necessary to be to you know dream memory manage to not be able to have a site fall to have things that we all expect [TS]
01:36:13 ◼ ► to have like you know name parameters native strings and maybe regular expressions [TS]
01:36:23 ◼ ► but they will not be sufficient to be a better language because I think many people Lincoln many people hate because [TS]
01:36:29 ◼ ► they like you know everyone hates or around this right but then link people like oh this is a great idea [TS]
01:36:36 ◼ ► and some people go back to writing the sequel queries like just because you have these features doesn't mean you're [TS]
01:36:42 ◼ ► Is a great example the people who made that had a better idea of what would make a good easy A.P.I. [TS]
01:36:51 ◼ ► You know it just because you have married doesn't mean you're going home with A.B.I. [TS]
01:36:55 ◼ ► Was good is easy doesn't mean that you're going to come up with a way of dealing with databases that's better than a [TS]
01:36:59 ◼ ► link that's better than or ends better than writing direct queries like it doesn't automatically make you the winner [TS]
01:37:07 ◼ ► and eventually you get to the point like Apple was with Copeland where no matter how good your stuff is if you don't [TS]
01:37:14 ◼ ► meet this in the bar you do not have every protection you become a nonentity you it's like you can't play in the game [TS]
01:37:24 ◼ ► and we have done our new I know I saw it I was like I'm sorry you spent a long time over there dicking around [TS]
01:37:30 ◼ ► and the bar has moved and now you are just and not a player anymore and that's the scenario that trying to avoid here. [TS]
01:37:36 ◼ ► It doesn't mean that if you make a memory management which then it will be better than Objective C. [TS]
01:37:43 ◼ ► Will not be as good as cocoa That's why I was saying make seventeen teams put them against each other don't tell them [TS]
01:37:48 ◼ ► each other exists like it's going to be difficult to do is not even guaranteed that you're going to be successful [TS]
01:37:52 ◼ ► but if you don't try you are guaranteed long term that you're doomed. Yeah I agree it's just. [TS]
01:38:00 ◼ ► It's it's so tough in one thing I should point out is that link is about more than just hitting databases I mean what's [TS]
01:38:11 ◼ ► or a hash table in memory you can write really expressive queries against that half sure that dictionary [TS]
01:38:20 ◼ ► and you can do it either in a format that that smells a lot like sequel literally within code you can you can write you [TS]
01:38:27 ◼ ► know from a dictionary where blah select blah or you can do it in a more traditional way but [TS]
01:38:34 ◼ ► but link is extremely powerful and it's things like that that make me think you're right [TS]
01:38:40 ◼ ► but I don't know I think the most the most pressing thing you said was that it takes a long time to develop a really [TS]
01:38:52 ◼ ► and I would take I would say Coke over the Dot Net framework as much as I would miss link as much as I would miss [TS]
01:38:58 ◼ ► reflection in the easy peasy form that it is and net I would probably take took Ko-Ko over it and that's saying a lot. [TS]
01:39:05 ◼ ► Even if you have an awesome A.P.I. and Even if you have an awesome language and every agrees A.B.I. [TS]
01:39:12 ◼ ► or the market is not attached to a successful product that will also do middle health like the things that have to come [TS]
01:39:20 ◼ ► It's like in the end like it no matter how great a thing you make in terms of the underlying thing that doesn't get [TS]
01:39:28 ◼ ► and whatever it is it has a successful product provided to meet some pretty low minimum bar of suitability. [TS]
01:39:36 ◼ ► and will be still be stuck with the decades for decades anyway so that's the other you know again the theme of the show. [TS]
01:39:45 ◼ ► and uses it to Natasha successful products it doesn't mean that it is the best thing that we could ever possibly have [TS]
01:39:52 ◼ ► Would be nowhere paddled in by next right is it because I had no object is the is better in many many ways than a lot [TS]
01:39:59 ◼ ► of its contemporaries. Languages but it would be nowhere if Apple hadn't bought them and so like that Apple has. [TS]
01:40:06 ◼ ► and you have the ability as Microsoft sort of had to try to to try to prevent yourself from becoming irrelevant by [TS]
01:40:13 ◼ ► revving your technology stack trying to good at the same time is also making successful products on maybe it's [TS]
01:40:18 ◼ ► impossible maybe Apple maybe Apple's life time is limited by the lifetime Objective C. [TS]
01:40:22 ◼ ► Of it's institutionally uncapable capable of ever making anything good enough to replace it. [TS]
01:40:33 ◼ ► To become like a disqualifier where now just like memory protection was like memory lack of memory to action preemptive [TS]
01:40:44 ◼ ► and then most went out of business well that if that's Apple strategy if we ever get Tim Cook on the shelves I would [TS]
01:40:51 ◼ ► ask him this super esoteric question is like this I think this is like you know it's probably pet he'll be retired [TS]
01:41:01 ◼ ► but I wonder if your SEO company if you ever think about things like this like three C.E.O.'s are now that guy might [TS]
01:41:12 ◼ ► or my discontent to say we're going to make competing proving objective as long as hard as we can ever never becomes a [TS]
01:41:18 ◼ ► disqualifier success Well that's the end of Apple but that'll be so long from now nobody alive cares. Good job. [TS]
01:41:24 ◼ ► So my what I keep wondering is right around the time that I think all of us were getting completely fed up with the [TS]
01:41:38 ◼ ► That's when Art came out and at the last possible moment the biggest issue that all of us had [TS]
01:41:44 ◼ ► or I would say the biggest issue all of us had with Objective C. Suddenly wasn't an issue anymore. [TS]
01:41:51 ◼ ► and at the eleventh hour finally fixes whatever the current issue is is that it is not a long term plan that'll work do [TS]
01:42:00 ◼ ► It took them two tries to do that because the first try was garbage collection right and that [TS]
01:42:04 ◼ ► and that was a multi-year effort that ended in failure because like it wasn't while they got the by anybody something I [TS]
01:42:11 ◼ ► think they made Xcode guys do it I forget who they had dog food the garbage collection [TS]
01:42:15 ◼ ► but like it didn't work out because it wasn't nicely compatible with the sea place language they found a better [TS]
01:42:19 ◼ ► solution that had better characteristics it was a better fit for their language that is more of a compromise in many [TS]
01:42:31 ◼ ► and mobile that arc doesn't have the ark was the right solution at the right time for Apple. [TS]
01:42:38 ◼ ► If you're ever if you're going to try to incremental lies your way from where we are now to a higher level language. [TS]
01:42:44 ◼ ► I guess if you're phenomenally successful you can use that to extend your life for a really long time [TS]
01:42:51 ◼ ► but eventually we're going to get it kind of get to the point where we are like with age of us plus where there we go. [TS]
01:43:01 ◼ ► and as long as you're still successful you know hailed as i Phones There is a response on there must be pretty awesome [TS]
01:43:06 ◼ ► right like you can keep adding features for pretty long time if you have an excess of products you're just really [TS]
01:43:13 ◼ ► and I have a hard time seeing a path from something like object to see like how the transition of the transition is [TS]
01:43:22 ◼ ► That's the really hot like there's always like a chasm that you can keep making things better improving the syntax dot [TS]
01:43:27 ◼ ► notation string literals object literals like you can do lots of awesome things especially with L V M The new compiler [TS]
01:43:33 ◼ ► infrastructure like they have a lot of runway out in front of them they can do lots of awesome things again long enough [TS]
01:43:43 ◼ ► and you're left with this crazy ass mongrel like the runaway I think is run on each of us plus that is just you can [TS]
01:43:52 ◼ ► and some other successful product will come along will be successful not because of the language [TS]
01:43:56 ◼ ► but just incidentally also happens to have a language where you can express yourself. [TS]
01:44:00 ◼ ► Concisely you know in that summer's nicer manner that people will in addition to saying I'm going to write for the [TS]
01:44:09 ◼ ► Because that's awesome in the year twenty whatever and by the way the programs are awesome [TS]
01:44:14 ◼ ► and you know how do you know if you're going to say square brackets a gang of us all be able to see the stupid syntax [TS]
01:44:29 ◼ ► Yeah and I think this conversation is the conversation of like Oh Apple needs to do this. [TS]
01:44:59 ◼ ► I don't necessarily think that's the case and I think they should have to turn the thinking [TS]
01:45:03 ◼ ► but I think it's up to it's up to like the world of developers really to to to figure out what the heck we want [TS]
01:45:21 ◼ ► and all developers benefit substantially by their only really being like one conical language that you write apps for [TS]
01:45:37 ◼ ► but I think I think overall everyone benefits from there being like want to greet upon default language so the question [TS]
01:45:52 ◼ ► Because if you if you try to have it both ways try to maintain both you know you had a whole show you had two of the [TS]
01:46:05 ◼ ► Is pretty good at most stuff really good at some stuff and really rough it some other stuff [TS]
01:46:14 ◼ ► And I think overall people who are familiar with that are enough to look beyond the brackets would probably agree with [TS]
01:46:23 ◼ ► What new thing would be at least that good to at least as many people or or a clickable to as many circumstances [TS]
01:46:35 ◼ ► and you know this is this is like a design question this is not this is not as much a technical question. [TS]
01:46:40 ◼ ► This is a design choice and design is hard because a lot of times with these quick questions there is no good answer. [TS]
01:46:47 ◼ ► It's a lot like politics like there is like no good policy in some cases where everyone's going to be happy [TS]
01:46:56 ◼ ► or to Universal winner or even everyone can agree that it's a net win at all and so I think Objective C. [TS]
01:47:02 ◼ ► Replacements are going to face a big problem there which is like there's this huge A.P.I. [TS]
01:47:14 ◼ ► and it works for the most part it works really well like all the problems of of C. [TS]
01:47:19 ◼ ► That make it hard to use or or clunky or hard to maintain. If it's badly written Objective C. [TS]
01:47:34 ◼ ► Aren't really problems an object to see or are so much more that it's you know it's basically irrelevant. [TS]
01:47:47 ◼ ► but I think the much bigger question is what is just deciding what exactly that should be and how it should work and [TS]
01:47:53 ◼ ► and all that. All the decisions that go into designing a language and the associated framework. [TS]
01:48:02 ◼ ► and I don't see any consensus forming among developers who are suggesting that it should be different. [TS]
01:48:08 ◼ ► I don't see any consensus forming to say like oh it should be it should move from where it is to X. [TS]
01:48:16 ◼ ► Is a little bit of consensus because of all the other high level languages there are other because so much development [TS]
01:48:21 ◼ ► these days is done not on you know native platforms going go you know server side programming like there's always a [TS]
01:48:26 ◼ ► language like Python Ruby and even P.H.P. and All you know all the stuff out there is giving P. [TS]
01:48:31 ◼ ► and Javascript giving people a taste of the things they don't have a native languages [TS]
01:48:34 ◼ ► and there's some consensus on things of the day I think everyone agree that a modern language has to have a. [TS]
01:48:39 ◼ ► I'm thinking more like you mention a transition before it transitions can be terrible because you can't just wake up [TS]
01:48:50 ◼ ► But luckily Apple has some experience in this area. It transitioned everybody from A C C plus plus you know A.B.I. [TS]
01:49:02 ◼ ► or whatever it transition them from that to a language it almost looks like a lateral move to Objective C. [TS]
01:49:11 ◼ ► They manage that transition perhaps not as well as they could have but for a long time they had things like carbon [TS]
01:49:19 ◼ ► and it's one thing carbon people would complain why can't I get that control I want to draw [TS]
01:49:22 ◼ ► or my carbon up in the head Quickdraw still in there in the course like it was a hairy mess [TS]
01:49:27 ◼ ► and that move was such a tiny move like you're saying you need a language it's so maidenly betterness confesses was [TS]
01:49:36 ◼ ► Definitely not among old school mac developers doubling out among like Adobe and Microsoft and stuff like that. [TS]
01:49:44 ◼ ► but I think the the carbon to Cocoa transition is evidence that it is possible to do that in a way that doesn't totally [TS]
01:49:53 ◼ ► destroy your platform which is not I don't think was a given that I don't think any one of the ripple of a transition [TS]
01:50:04 ◼ ► But nowadays if you're writing a windows app are you writing C. Sharp app and whatever the hell A.P.I. [TS]
01:50:08 ◼ ► They're pushing these days for the good. Like who's running Windows apps. Yeah I mean that's a question too. [TS]
01:50:17 ◼ ► but I think the thing you're transitioning to I don't think you need all that much consensus [TS]
01:50:22 ◼ ► and I don't think it needs to be that fantastically better Big Apple's kind of shown that you can do it sort of by [TS]
01:50:28 ◼ ► Fiachra and eventually people will come around to the thing. If the things that you can program in Objective C. [TS]
01:50:33 ◼ ► Are popular enough like the i Phone and you know that you will you don't you managed to bring along like Microsoft [TS]
01:50:42 ◼ ► and screaming like I was the first cocoa version of Photoshop like to version of the go or something like that. [TS]
01:50:50 ◼ ► and they've basically completely transitioned if you're writing an application for Apple's platform you doing it [TS]
01:50:56 ◼ ► objectives the echo despite the fact that they're not all that different from C.C. [TS]
01:51:04 ◼ ► or you said a minute ago you know it's up to the developer community in order to kind of I don't dictate is a strong [TS]
01:51:12 ◼ ► word to kind of help figure out what the what the way forward is I mean how do we do that as a community do we just [TS]
01:51:18 ◼ ► write blog post we write our own coffee script kind of equivalent that trains compiles into Objective C. [TS]
01:51:29 ◼ ► I would say that that's exactly it it's you know we do it by both discussion and by example. [TS]
01:51:45 ◼ ► and you know like you know the most of the posts have said that you know no one no one saying oh you should switch to [TS]
01:51:54 ◼ ► python like. Like no one is putting like with like a specific language in place to say this. [TS]
01:52:04 ◼ ► It's just you know very hand we'd be like oh well it needs to solve these criteria or it needs to change. [TS]
01:52:19 ◼ ► Changes not not language changes and and a lot of those things do require language changes [TS]
01:52:25 ◼ ► but are like superficial like the brackets and so I don't to be just too much of the ground further [TS]
01:52:31 ◼ ► but I just think that one of the biggest reasons why we don't have something like this yet is because what what that [TS]
01:52:46 ◼ ► and no one's clamoring for something specific that is widely considered a good idea. [TS]
01:52:52 ◼ ► Well there's never going to be consensus outside Apple unavailable for consensus to form that consensus would take [TS]
01:53:03 ◼ ► and then the only thing Apple could take away from that was well everybody leaving to develop for whatever the new you [TS]
01:53:08 ◼ ► know pinky ring platform is that's become very popular and then they would decide whatever the hell [TS]
01:53:16 ◼ ► and language of the pink platform uses that's what they should use in on even though that would be the case because all [TS]
01:53:20 ◼ ► it would mean is they just moved to a more successful platform the same way that people would say Objective C. [TS]
01:53:27 ◼ ► and it's not really because the language they learn the language because of the way they get out of the i Phone so that [TS]
01:53:32 ◼ ► signals from outside as well you can get from any kind of is like a big fuzzy noise. [TS]
01:53:39 ◼ ► If you wait for a clear signal the clear single will be a sign that you waited too long and you're doomed [TS]
01:53:44 ◼ ► and it's probably not a good signal anyway because you were to get a look at the thing that they're moving to [TS]
01:53:48 ◼ ► and say that's what we should have done not necessarily You could've been something entirely different ten years ago [TS]
01:53:55 ◼ ► and so now you've lost the opportunity to dictate what the next language an A.P.I. Is going to be. That's why. [TS]
01:54:06 ◼ ► If they were never going to be consensus outside them all they can look at is sort of the buzz of noise of high level [TS]
01:54:11 ◼ ► languages and pick and choose the features they think like what one of the biggest pain points. [TS]
01:54:18 ◼ ► but like how can we transcend those pain points not just patch over the not to make them a little better not just find [TS]
01:54:24 ◼ ► a solution to those things it's a better fit for our current language than for example garbage collection was [TS]
01:54:31 ◼ ► And I have to look at everything across the entire world all the different ways you can write software [TS]
01:54:38 ◼ ► when you're the biggest technology company in the world that's what you have to do. Thanks a lot. [TS]
01:54:44 ◼ ► Two or three sponsors this week King Squarespace and Linda dot com and we will see you next week. [TS]
01:55:24 ◼ ► And you know it says to that list and I don't know if anyone else enjoys it but I freakin love heard out like that. [TS]
01:56:00 ◼ ► And I would hate to show software methodologies because I know one of these things is going to be an even longer show [TS]
01:56:12 ◼ ► Nice to see you keep associate yngling with with link to sequel which is one piece of land I know I know I know I [TS]
01:56:24 ◼ ► Nor did I bring up of the database drivers for in memory things in common separated files all the good stuff the pros [TS]
01:56:32 ◼ ► doing decades ago. The opportunity memory operated the first program. Now I think Link is awesome. [TS]
01:56:40 ◼ ► I think it's amazing. I just think that like the ability to try something like that is the important thing. [TS]
01:56:50 ◼ ► and weaknesses versus all the other things we tried before and then someone else tries again [TS]
01:56:53 ◼ ► but you can even try something like a link if the language doesn't provide support for it. [TS]
01:57:00 ◼ ► Like I don't know what the solution is to turn to the problem that link and or EMS [TS]
01:57:07 ◼ ► Again he keep shooting link with or EMS and it's so much more than that. I know but it's a way to get a date. [TS]
01:57:13 ◼ ► Doesn't have to be in a database it's basically a way to bridge the world. Like I want to get this information. [TS]
01:57:23 ◼ ► What if I could query a dictionary the same way I can query a database now they're unified under the single A.P.I. [TS]
01:57:28 ◼ ► And yes that's a much better way of looking at it. Their advantage to that. And then sometimes like. [TS]
01:57:37 ◼ ► and in the same way that people that say I don't want to view my database as a database I want to view it as a bunch of [TS]
01:57:44 ◼ ► Better or maybe I don't object database because in a database I actually will be like the objects [TS]
01:57:48 ◼ ► and I'm getting with an object database is going to keep trying to figure this out. [TS]
01:57:52 ◼ ► As you know I give it full marks for being an interesting and novel way approach to familiar class. [TS]
01:58:03 ◼ ► Yeah that's the thing that I love so much about link is I use it against objects constantly [TS]
01:58:07 ◼ ► and not just dictionaries you know use against a raise you know gimme gimme all the items where such [TS]
01:58:12 ◼ ► and such a property is greater than such and such value give me all the people where age is greater than twenty one. [TS]
01:58:24 ◼ ► and that's what makes it so powerful and I very very rarely in fact almost never use link again sequel. [TS]
01:58:30 ◼ ► I almost exclusively use LINQ against objects and it's so powerful again you can do a lot of that with an S. [TS]
01:58:36 ◼ ► but it's not quite so clean it's not quite so transparent although perhaps I'm saying that because I'm just used to [TS]
01:58:43 ◼ ► link that you would love Perl Perl is the big thing about Perl is that like your come you're comfortable speaking in [TS]
01:58:54 ◼ ► and I think of it I can think of it in the same way that we think of getting out of a dictionary it's cultural. [TS]
01:58:58 ◼ ► Yes Perl is the poster child for giving you a way to express the same sentiment in whatever way you're the most [TS]
01:59:05 ◼ ► comfortable thinking about it so if you're more comfortable thinking about getting information about a re is phrasing [TS]
01:59:12 ◼ ► and you know like not just more than one way to do it in more than one way to say and what I like. [TS]
01:59:17 ◼ ► People would argue why do you want to save me through different ways will sometimes people's brains work a certain way [TS]
01:59:22 ◼ ► and they think of it in this matter knows how his people brains think of the same as I passed in a totally different [TS]
01:59:26 ◼ ► way with everything switched around in a different order. They should be able to express that as well. [TS]
01:59:32 ◼ ► I also want to bring up one more quick thing that's famous last words and that's concurrency [TS]
01:59:42 ◼ ► and thoughts about the new the next big language revolve around concurrency which is a valid concern the problem is [TS]
01:59:49 ◼ ► that what a lot of people seem to want is for concurrency to be like hand wave the way. [TS]
01:59:54 ◼ ► Oh it'll just always make everything concurrent at the language level and noodle little. [TS]
02:00:00 ◼ ► And currency easier and the reason why concurrency is hard is not because of the language. [TS]
02:00:08 ◼ ► My concurrency is hard is because it's complicated and it's so there are language aspects of it [TS]
02:00:14 ◼ ► but I can relate to something like her language if you design the language around the idea of concurrency. [TS]
02:00:22 ◼ ► and concurrently like implicit concurrency where I mean go has a little bit of this [TS]
02:00:26 ◼ ► and you know other things that where you can express something in a high enough level way where not only do you not [TS]
02:00:32 ◼ ► care about the details of how it's done you don't have any control over the details of how it's done [TS]
02:00:37 ◼ ► and there are invariants that are provided by the language in runtime that you can guarantee. [TS]
02:00:46 ◼ ► but at least it gets rid of like the super low level concerns in the medium level concerns [TS]
02:00:54 ◼ ► but that's progress you know because like you don't like you want to have some sort of primitive like semaphores [TS]
02:01:01 ◼ ► Usenet let us stop thinking about that particular problem think one level up and it's never going to be easy [TS]
02:01:07 ◼ ► but what people want is like look I'm tired of thinking about concurrency at this level I would love it if simple [TS]
02:01:12 ◼ ► things I could do simple concurrent operations on sets of data where I didn't care about the power of them [TS]
02:01:17 ◼ ► and there was like built into the language I was sixteen implicitly expressed something like doing all this on all [TS]
02:01:23 ◼ ► these With goes away towards that worth it I don't want to worry whether the details of the language itself can provide [TS]
02:01:35 ◼ ► and I think everyone would see that as a big win and that's what they're mostly talking about concurrency. [TS]
02:01:39 ◼ ► Maybe they have fantasies where like there's not going to be a problem that really they're just going to reduce the [TS]
02:01:47 ◼ ► I mean so many of these of these wish list items This included in this much more an A.P.I. [TS]
02:01:55 ◼ ► but it can be a language problem if you design a language with parents in mind even if it's. [TS]
02:02:00 ◼ ► Part of like the standard library to go to know whether they're concurrently things are part of the language [TS]
02:02:04 ◼ ► or there is a library that comes in the language and that that line is fuzzy to begin with I mean like Objective C. [TS]
02:02:08 ◼ ► Technically is basically a C. Library it's not like it's there in Objective C. Language with C. Runtime which is a C. [TS]
02:02:14 ◼ ► Program that runs your you know what I mean like it's a fuzzy line but I think Erling and Haskell [TS]
02:02:19 ◼ ► and other kind of things where you express operations in such a high level that there's no way to control any sort like [TS]
02:02:29 ◼ ► and you just you know you know sort of the preconditions in the post conditions in a language you guarantee you that [TS]
02:02:34 ◼ ► and you're not concerned with how outperforms of things if you can get that kind of implicit parallelism built into the [TS]
02:02:43 ◼ ► but that regular sort of run of the mill programmers are afraid to tackle with concurrency now even though they totally [TS]
02:02:52 ◼ ► Has opened up parallelism to people who otherwise wouldn't try have been part of this great library G.C.D. [TS]
02:02:58 ◼ ► Previously able to run on the main thread but it's so easy for me not to run the main thread out of throw it off [TS]
02:03:02 ◼ ► and those people learn that actually you can screw yourself doing that too you know. [TS]
02:03:05 ◼ ► But like it's it's all about lowering the bar to whatever powers in the my willing to attempt [TS]
02:03:11 ◼ ► and feel confident is going to work and if you can bake things like that into the language [TS]
02:03:15 ◼ ► or into a library that's so much a part of the language it seems like the language. [TS]
02:03:22 ◼ ► Yeah I don't know I guess I'm I'm much more of an optimist that there are still tons of room for improvement with [TS]
02:03:31 ◼ ► With the same language in that you don't need to throw out the entire language and the entire existing A.P.I. [TS]
02:03:38 ◼ ► and I think that's you know you're right that if you if you make it like part of the syntax [TS]
02:03:46 ◼ ► but I just think there's so much more we can do and I think it's one of the reasons why Objective C. [TS]
02:03:53 ◼ ► and probably has a pretty long future because there is so much more you can do with just libraries and. [TS]
02:04:00 ◼ ► Changes and maybe a little help from the editor and the tools are written in very a court date. [TS]
02:04:07 ◼ ► In all other ways a court date is yet another way to try to deal with like large troughs of data that you can rummage [TS]
02:04:15 ◼ ► and they had to have a different model of its kind of like go around not really like a link like you don't call the [TS]
02:04:21 ◼ ► database you mention as predicate it's an object store it lets you know that probably didn't run at many different [TS]
02:04:28 ◼ ► times never I think at the language level I think maybe link is closer to God even though it's not language levels like [TS]
02:04:33 ◼ ► flies on language features but it's language integrated. That's what it says in the day you know. [TS]
02:04:48 ◼ ► and a problem having a language help you in that regard can let you try new solutions those solutions may not be better [TS]
02:04:56 ◼ ► and I think I don't know enough about these highly parallel languages to know like we're given an early expert on here [TS]
02:05:01 ◼ ► they would explain what it is specifically about her lying that makes it so much better than doing the same things in [TS]
02:05:12 ◼ ► but I'm convinced enough from what I have from things that I read about language that that is the case it's just that [TS]