The Accidental Tech Podcast

56: The Woodpecker


00:00:00   Given your musical taste I bet you like Coldplay. I do like a play. [TS]

00:00:04   I prefer Radiohead but I like [TS]

00:00:05   or play I prefer energy that's probably a perfectly reasonable joke that I just did not get. No you got it. [TS]

00:00:17   So John tell us about the found format. [TS]

00:00:19   There we mention this in the show we talked about script notes fountain is that markdown like format they used to write [TS]

00:00:26   screenplays. [TS]

00:00:28   And at the time that I brought we were of the second time I said it was invented by John August [TS]

00:00:33   and someone tweeted me to just clarify it was created by John August and you said he [TS]

00:00:38   and Stu mash with so three people created not just on August don't want to just give credit to the one guy who happens [TS]

00:00:43   to have a podcast that we listened to and talked about and are still talking about. [TS]

00:00:47   They go into I mean like this is the thing about the correction that that small. Like I think it's worth correcting. [TS]

00:00:53   But like you have no place to correct for it except in the follow up so like if I just read about it I had to remind [TS]

00:00:59   everyone of us has a park has also follow me on Twitter some progression has been on the podcast no way around it [TS]

00:01:03   usually thought this this minuscule I exclude But I think crediting is worth putting in. [TS]

00:01:10   Right so software complexity [TS]

00:01:12   and you guys remember what I said about software complexity last week it was a second only to parenting something like [TS]

00:01:19   that. [TS]

00:01:20   I you know as always I relisten to the show I was like I don't want to make sure that I remember what I said [TS]

00:01:26   but of course I relisten the show so long ago that I've since forgotten [TS]

00:01:29   but I personally got a lot of feedback about this I don't know if all of you guys did [TS]

00:01:34   or didn't come to the Form a little bit came to the feedback from but I got a lot of tweets a lot of snarky angry [TS]

00:01:40   and questioning tweets. [TS]

00:01:42   Oh that's right because I saw Dr Dre call you out on it and you said that you would correct him in my words not yours. [TS]

00:01:50   You said you would correct him and the next episode [TS]

00:01:52   and I'd forgot about that now I'm very excited to hear where this is going. Yeah so it was like an offhand comment. [TS]

00:02:00   The fact that a software is the most complex thing made by humans or something similar that you know right after [TS]

00:02:06   and parenting at the end is a joke [TS]

00:02:07   and it was imprecisely worded because I thought I was referring to an idea that everybody knew like I was referencing [TS]

00:02:14   something that was shared knowledge with me in the audience and we all knew about it [TS]

00:02:18   and most of us probably agreed so I could just you know say something vague [TS]

00:02:23   and be like oh he's referring to that idea and then put the joke about parenting at the end you know whatever. [TS]

00:02:30   But that like that was not an expression that's not a complete expression of what I meant [TS]

00:02:34   and which is not surprising to me that so many people heard that [TS]

00:02:36   and misinterpreted it because if they don't know what the heck I'm talking about the words I said were not as Actually [TS]

00:02:42   what I meant. [TS]

00:02:44   So did you see what you saw darting during being about her but what did you guys think I meant [TS]

00:02:51   or think I was referring to or did you know what I was referring to. [TS]

00:02:54   I did not I thought you were being genuine I didn't think you were being. [TS]

00:02:57   I thought you were being playfully snarky like you were you're trolling in a in a not jerky way in a funny way. [TS]

00:03:05   You're going to make me go off on a tangent about the definition of trolling because I have a fairly precise definition [TS]

00:03:12   of trolling which is intentionally saying something you don't believe to get a rise out of people. [TS]

00:03:17   That was not what I was doing. [TS]

00:03:19   People use trolling to mean just like saying something that gets people angry [TS]

00:03:23   but if you really believe it you're not trolling you are expressing your actual anyway. Forget about trolling. [TS]

00:03:30   So here's what I was referring to I think I can sum it up reasonably concisely [TS]

00:03:33   and I'd just like ramble a lot at the end until every second of the topic [TS]

00:03:39   and I had to look this up because it was another thing that assume everybody knows that they don't like saying that I [TS]

00:03:46   can remember seeing like for decades I don't know where it came from [TS]

00:03:48   when I google for it I got attributed to some name but not a timestamp [TS]

00:03:52   but the last place I can be sure I remember seeing it in the first place I can be sure I remember seeing it on Usenet [TS]

00:03:58   and signatures. [TS]

00:04:00   It was an everybody got sick kid or that's a guess and it's the thing and you tell me if you've heard this before. [TS]

00:04:07   If builders build buildings the way programmers write programs the first woodpecker that came along would destroy [TS]

00:04:11   civilization have you heard that one before now. [TS]

00:04:15   Very popular saying back in the early days of the internet it was of that segues. [TS]

00:04:19   I'm sure predates the internet because programming certainly does. [TS]

00:04:22   I founded credited to General Weinberg but I don't know if that's accurate. [TS]

00:04:28   I only did five minutes of looking up his muscles doing research. [TS]

00:04:31   All right so good boy so this is the that saying what it's trying to get at is like the first premise behind the idea [TS]

00:04:39   that I'm getting at is that software has more problems than other seemingly similar things like other forms of [TS]

00:04:46   engineering and construction [TS]

00:04:47   and stuff like that that's what they're saying is like well the people who build buildings if they were as crappy as [TS]

00:04:51   programmers woodpeckers would destroy civilization. That's that's idea number one like that. [TS]

00:04:56   There are always bugs in software and sometimes they're super really serious bugs not just minor ones [TS]

00:05:03   and soft even software written by the very best programmers of various practitioners the entire field. [TS]

00:05:08   Those have big problems too right. [TS]

00:05:12   And I think everyone can agree on that if you write software a living you know bugs are a fact of life it's not a [TS]

00:05:17   default when I get really good programming I'll stop writing books that never never ever happen. [TS]

00:05:21   Actually your bugs become harder to find. [TS]

00:05:24   And that the quality of software I think we would all agree like that saying it's funny about the woodpecker destroying [TS]

00:05:29   civilization because there is not just a grain of truth but a serious amount of truth behind that. [TS]

00:05:34   Like people in other professions that seem similar certainly seen a hell of a lot more confident like the average is [TS]

00:05:41   better [TS]

00:05:41   and in programming particular does not like no matter how good you are you're never going to achieve a level of competence [TS]

00:05:48   that you know that even close to the average of these other professions. [TS]

00:05:52   All right so the second premise of behind the idea that I was referring to is that assume you agree with the fur. [TS]

00:06:00   One is another big chain of things like if you disagree with me at any point they're not going to connect after kind of [TS]

00:06:04   like if you said you have to kind of all the whole chain and if you disagree at any point well then oh well so [TS]

00:06:09   but if you agree with the first bit the second bit is this the the first bit about software being crappier [TS]

00:06:16   and the woodpecker thing. [TS]

00:06:17   It's not because software developers are dumb [TS]

00:06:19   or lazy like that is not because we haven't thought about programming is not because people haven't tried to figure out [TS]

00:06:27   better ways we might be able to program is not because programming is super young that we've been doing this for [TS]

00:06:32   decades and something that I think most programmers [TS]

00:06:37   and most other people would agree with is that this nature of software that was discussed that have been crap revert [TS]

00:06:42   things is because software is different in those other things and not because of any lack of effort or knowledge [TS]

00:06:48   or skill or or you know the biggest because programmers are stupid or anything like that. [TS]

00:06:53   We've had decades and decades of research and hard work [TS]

00:06:56   and they have not really led to any big reduction in sort of the number of bugs per line of code [TS]

00:07:02   or whatever whatever stat you want to put up like a programmer today versus a programmer writing something on punch [TS]

00:07:08   cards error rate wise are probably pretty similar. [TS]

00:07:12   And it's not for lack of trying to sound like well we've never really put an effort in trying to figure out how to [TS]

00:07:16   write software that are you know we put a lot of effort into it and it's seems I'm I can say it's intractable [TS]

00:07:20   but so far we haven't cracked it. [TS]

00:07:24   And like the Fred Brooks things that I mentioned I want to show you know the mythical man month how adding manpower to [TS]

00:07:31   a late project makes it later that is not true. [TS]

00:07:33   You know building a bridge if you double your manpower you can probably build a bridge faster or you know [TS]

00:07:38   and anything any sort of more scalable physical endeavor or building a skyscraper you got one guy building a country [TS]

00:07:43   or boys can take forever. If you're running late if you add more construction workers up to point obviously I mean. [TS]

00:07:50   But like this The Mythical Man Month is famous because it's such a counter-intuitive finding for software in particular [TS]

00:07:56   and you know Fredricka there was no silver bullet. [TS]

00:08:00   This is my mother's one hundred seventy five no syllable one hundred eighty six. [TS]

00:08:04   Programming's been around since you know in its current sort of modern form since the fifty's sixty's right. [TS]

00:08:12   So these are people trying to research what we can do to get better know so we're brought was that we've looked into [TS]

00:08:16   this [TS]

00:08:16   and it doesn't seem to be anything we can do that will really make us better programmers by like an order of magnitude [TS]

00:08:23   used in the correct sense for all the people who are potentially correct and gave you about that. [TS]

00:08:28   And these two sort of seminal works in the in the world in the software field are fairly old [TS]

00:08:34   and I think most people accept them that like that. [TS]

00:08:38   This this all comes together as like programming is for some reason we're really crappy [TS]

00:08:42   and we can't figure out how to get that much better and it's not for lack of trying. [TS]

00:08:49   And so that's that's where I'm coming from in this [TS]

00:08:51   and the lots of silly misinterpretations of what I said which are probably accurate if you were to look at the words [TS]

00:08:57   like should have been dismissed. [TS]

00:08:58   This is something [TS]

00:08:59   when you look at them really like give them the benefit of doubt assume they're not like really dumb because it's so [TS]

00:09:03   easy as I have the exact words you said would only make sense if you meant you know mean this [TS]

00:09:08   and that's a stupid idea instead of saying well you must I meant the stupid idea most about something else [TS]

00:09:12   and it was not their fault my fault for saying the wrong thing. [TS]

00:09:14   But so they misinterpretations that I'd like to dissuade people from now is one that programmers have the hardest [TS]

00:09:20   profession in the world that's obviously silly pretty much any other job in the universe is harder than than [TS]

00:09:24   programming at least like physically [TS]

00:09:26   and emotionally like it's very hard to think of a profession that is easier than programming maybe you could think of [TS]

00:09:31   some that might be easier mentally [TS]

00:09:33   but that really depends on what kind of mental state you have if you have the type of brain that itself if it isn't [TS]

00:09:39   going to be something to do then actually being a checkout clerk is harder mentally than being a programmer. [TS]

00:09:45   But you know any any job is hard to physically almost all jobs are harder emotionally like it's trivial to think about [TS]

00:09:50   a job so that's not what I meant. [TS]

00:09:52   Software is the most complex thing in the world that is obviously also silly but there are some nuance I don't get to. [TS]

00:10:00   Bit [TS]

00:10:00   but like just to give an easy example the human body is obviously more complicated than any software we will probably [TS]

00:10:05   ever write and people deal human body all the time in many forms not just doctors and all of us stuff. [TS]

00:10:12   So here's what I did mean based on all those premises that I just described about software being the most complex [TS]

00:10:18   things made by human. [TS]

00:10:21   I just want one more sort of foundational thing you have to understand [TS]

00:10:25   and agree with me what it is that software is written on top of an abstraction [TS]

00:10:30   and that traction is what we call the hardware [TS]

00:10:32   and it's an engineering task to make the hardware so I guess someone somewhere is responsible for making essentially a [TS]

00:10:38   machine with the you know chips or transistors or whatever that provides an abstraction [TS]

00:10:44   but software work in the world of ones and zeros. [TS]

00:10:46   It's the hardest job to figure out the ones and zeros you know we are including after industry C.P. [TS]

00:10:51   Use clocks you know phase loops power supplies all that stuff that's running hardware that is all to make an [TS]

00:10:57   abstraction where it's like OK from this level up it's ones and zeros. [TS]

00:11:02   Sometimes that's traction is leaky to use your parlance but that's not what we're talking about [TS]

00:11:07   when we're talking about books. [TS]

00:11:08   If only holding most of our bugs were attributable to hardware problems were the ones [TS]

00:11:12   and zeros breakdown like that is not what causes most of our software bugs the hardware for the most part of a really [TS]

00:11:18   amazing job of maintaining that ones and zeros [TS]

00:11:20   and direction in our software bugs are not caused by that abstraction leaking are not caused by all of what actually [TS]

00:11:25   took to a zero and that's what caused the bug no one caught the bug in your program with you writing bad code. [TS]

00:11:30   There are hardware bugs and that's but that's not what we're talking about almost all the time in fact it's so novel [TS]

00:11:35   and it's a hardware bug it's like an exciting story right. [TS]

00:11:37   Whereas if you just make a software bug happens every day and above the ones [TS]

00:11:43   and zeros layer we human beings we software people are responsible for everything [TS]

00:11:49   and we have to write everything ourselves because you have libraries and O. S. [TS]

00:11:52   Isn't free and works like we've built up this gigantic tower of stuff on top of those ones and zeros. [TS]

00:11:57   But there is an expectation. [TS]

00:12:00   And I think the founded expectation that every single thing in the giant tower of crap that we've built is [TS]

00:12:05   understandable to a programmer the idea that software is for the most part pretty much nearly one hundred percent [TS]

00:12:13   knowable by humans I mean to have it all in their head doesn't mean any human being fits the entire Like knows every [TS]

00:12:18   single thing is happening the problem [TS]

00:12:19   but it is unknowable understand what you want to look up what's happened you can find out all the way down to getting [TS]

00:12:24   like the manual for the C.P.U. [TS]

00:12:26   and Figure out what the machine code is and disassembling it like it is knowable doesn't mean you know it. [TS]

00:12:31   But it means like the only thing stopping you from figuring it out like you have some super hard bug you keep digging [TS]

00:12:36   down down down eventually going to get down to ones [TS]

00:12:38   and zeroes in those one hundred zeros are noble you know Casey would know [TS]

00:12:41   or any other gun person has done any kind of a thing where you build a C.P.U. [TS]

00:12:46   Up from logic gates [TS]

00:12:47   or if you learn how transistor works then you know how logic works a million to the world the one who the earth [TS]

00:12:51   and you can very easily build a C.P.U. From those logic gates and work your way up. It's noble from top to bottom. [TS]

00:12:56   Every single piece because we're building on top of these ones and zeros [TS]

00:13:00   and I mentioned human body before which is way more complicated than a program [TS]

00:13:05   but humans don't create the human body not in the way not in the way I describe everything we do [TS]

00:13:10   but not like assembly going to be sometime so. [TS]

00:13:13   So let's think about something like a bridge a bridge is also more complicated than any program we will ever write. [TS]

00:13:18   In fact bridges are so complicated that we can't even like reason about them as they are we have to use approximations [TS]

00:13:24   and models and stuff like that to figure out whether they're going to work right. [TS]

00:13:27   Everything we do and that's have engineering has to be based on these models that are not reality [TS]

00:13:31   but they're hopefully close enough and we refine them [TS]

00:13:33   and everything like that because they're they're fiendishly complicated. [TS]

00:13:37   That's another good thing you know you're saying the programs are so complicated What about a bridge like a pencil is [TS]

00:13:42   more complicated than a computer program if you look at it at the atomic level so I think we can all agree that bridges [TS]

00:13:52   are generally more reliable than software like actual bridges like bridges fall down dropping the cars into the ocean [TS]

00:13:58   much less often than saw. Where just totally craps the bed and does the equivalent. [TS]

00:14:03   And granted we've been building bridges for a long time [TS]

00:14:05   but I don't think the Head Start really explains this because of you know the acceleration of technological advancement. [TS]

00:14:11   So the analogy I would say is like programming is like having to assemble a bridge starting from subatomic particles [TS]

00:14:18   and you're not allowed to know the current laws of physics and use them as a reference you have to invent everything [TS]

00:14:24   and so you you build on the equivalent of libraries [TS]

00:14:27   and frameworks of the equipment of librarian for I was in the bridge world it would be like [TS]

00:14:30   but what if there's a bug in the gravity library What if the guy who wrote the steel molecule framework that left some [TS]

00:14:37   corner case unchecked [TS]

00:14:38   and at some point all the steel would turn to liquid at room temperature of a certain kind of car travels over the [TS]

00:14:43   bridge that's what we're doing in the world of software and it's because the entire stack is both created by humans [TS]

00:14:50   and noble by humans there is no sort of like well that's the way things work [TS]

00:14:54   and will build models to you know to sort of approximate what's going on [TS]

00:14:59   and using these here is actually going to be something reliable. [TS]

00:15:02   Every single piece of it from the top of the bottom is no noble and changeable by the programmers. [TS]

00:15:06   And so these things [TS]

00:15:08   when I say software is the most complicated thing created by human I just made it more I could say software is the most [TS]

00:15:12   complicated thing wholly created by human because it is wholly artificial. [TS]

00:15:16   Like once you get above the ones and zeros all that ones if you're with us [TS]

00:15:20   and there are no rules except the rules we make there is no gravity there's no laws of physics there's no you know [TS]

00:15:25   physical properties there's there's nothing there is only what we make of it in every single layer that layer cake has [TS]

00:15:31   bugs and nuances that are knowable to us but are not known to us [TS]

00:15:36   and so that you know the higher we build the more chance there is that we don't understand something about cocoa that [TS]

00:15:42   we think we understand and this thing ends up being like on allocated in the time we tried to access it [TS]

00:15:47   or that there's a bug in the local library [TS]

00:15:50   and it's revealed in some very strange corner case like nothing all bugs to do both in frameworks [TS]

00:15:53   and everything like that all the way does turtles all the way down it's all humans writing programs you know that are [TS]

00:15:59   no. [TS]

00:16:00   But unknown and that's the world we're living in [TS]

00:16:02   and that I think is describes the unique nature of software as being the most complicated thing that we make from top [TS]

00:16:08   to bottom because it is completely artificial. [TS]

00:16:11   The human body is not knowable because we do company [TS]

00:16:14   but we're we don't make it we you know we're not responsible for no one expects you to know could you tell me what the [TS]

00:16:19   electron in this atom in this person's eyeballs doing right now of course not [TS]

00:16:23   but if someone asked you Can you tell me when this value is going to change. A You can actually tell them and B. [TS]

00:16:28   You can understand what is happening [TS]

00:16:30   and if you had a bug related to that little electron you should be able to figure it out. [TS]

00:16:34   So I don't know if this is convincing as a bee as I keep piling on the assumptions I think most people were going to [TS]

00:16:39   let on that software is bad and that it's not bad because programmers are lazy [TS]

00:16:43   but I think most programmers will agree that the unique nature of software is essentially that it is really complicated [TS]

00:16:51   in the realm of things that we make ourselves and every single part of us every single part of it is created by us [TS]

00:16:57   and in theory noble but noble bias. [TS]

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00:18:51   Now you guys want to get off this topic [TS]

00:18:53   but I want to get both of your take on this realm which assuming you care I don't Casey. [TS]

00:19:00   I I sort of do so as as someone who claims to be an engineer which is to say I went through an engineering program [TS]

00:19:08   and had a relatively large university. [TS]

00:19:11   I I feel like I can be extremely snobby about engineers vs non engineers for example. [TS]

00:19:20   I think that Marco got an inferior education simply because his education was in computer science not computer [TS]

00:19:25   engineering. [TS]

00:19:25   So I wouldn't call it inferior I would just say that as a someone who also has an engineering degree the one thing I [TS]

00:19:31   think we can rightfully get to do is lord it over the people who took what we considered to be easier majors. Yes. [TS]

00:19:36   Is it inferior education. [TS]

00:19:38   I don't know [TS]

00:19:38   but is it harder to go in general is it harder to go through an engineering degree than it is to go through a computer [TS]

00:19:45   science degree I would say in general for most people yes. [TS]

00:19:48   And so that's the one little thing that we can hold up with some tiny amount of profit. [TS]

00:19:53   Please e-mail them please e-mail us. Furthermore like you were saying earlier the difference to be between can. [TS]

00:20:00   Engineering or science all kidding aside is that in principle when John [TS]

00:20:05   and I graduated if not today we should be able to like John said follow software at a high level language like object [TS]

00:20:14   of C. or or C. Sharp or or even Perl or P.H.P. [TS]

00:20:17   or Whatever the case may be we should be able to follow that all the way down to NAND gates and so and so on [TS]

00:20:23   and so forth within a proper even transistors within a processor. [TS]

00:20:26   Just like John said [TS]

00:20:27   and I think what's interesting is I can see why people like Dr drang who is air quote traditional engineer could be [TS]

00:20:37   offended by John or me or anyone saying that the sort of thing we do is extremely complex [TS]

00:20:43   or even the most complex as other thing we do it's thing we create and write right. [TS]

00:20:48   The thing we create and so I can understand both sides of this and to me. [TS]

00:20:53   I think the thing that makes the most sense is that for us by comparison [TS]

00:20:59   and John you touched on this our our our industry our engineering discipline is so much younger so much younger than [TS]

00:21:09   most of these other disciplines. [TS]

00:21:11   You could argue that mechanical engineering for example has been around for a really long time hundreds of years at the [TS]

00:21:16   very least if not many many many more than that [TS]

00:21:19   and so because of that I think the reasonable argument for software being terrible [TS]

00:21:26   and for us not being good at our jobs is that we're very we as a as a race as a as a race I guess you are just very [TS]

00:21:37   ignorant and we're kind of amateurs at this. [TS]

00:21:40   I don't buy that argument because of the accelerating pace of technology you're right that it's so much newer than [TS]

00:21:45   structural engineering for example [TS]

00:21:46   but technology if you like put any graph of like technological advancement after like the industrial revolution like [TS]

00:21:52   the rate of change is accelerating so even though our thing came in much later in the timeline it came in after the [TS]

00:21:59   bend in the high. [TS]

00:22:00   So we've had the equivalent of millennia of technological advancement in software [TS]

00:22:05   and yet we're not getting better at these things. [TS]

00:22:09   Learning I don't buy that like and I think that contributes to it somewhat [TS]

00:22:12   but I think I think the thing we're making because it is so wholly artificial and knowable [TS]

00:22:17   and complicated that unique combination of factors like I spent a little while trying to think of something that has [TS]

00:22:23   similar properties. [TS]

00:22:25   I can think of science fiction things that have similar properties like you know building living beings from like you [TS]

00:22:33   know doing D.N.A. [TS]

00:22:33   Programming or stuff like that or building nanobots or maybe that or self [TS]

00:22:36   or up like everything I think of that is that would be worse has some kind of place where we decide it is not knowable [TS]

00:22:44   anymore like genetic algorithms or things were like well just let it go run off on its own [TS]

00:22:49   and we'll do a some tiny simulation of kind of like what how life evolved. [TS]

00:22:53   But we won't understand the reasoning or the functioning of all of us hope that the end product like works right. [TS]

00:22:58   Can you think of one that has the combination of like totally made by humans also very complicated [TS]

00:23:07   and no help from any pre-existing anything to start with like ones and zeros. [TS]

00:23:11   Well no [TS]

00:23:12   but you can argue that you know we're building on more building on physics as well just as much as a bridge builder as [TS]

00:23:18   well but I think there's a clean break like. [TS]

00:23:20   Yes the engineers who build the hardware Yes that's all physics obviously like that's here [TS]

00:23:24   but I'm saying like there's a hard layer behind like that's the hardware [TS]

00:23:27   and they do a great job with that because like it's there they're you know doing approximations based on the natural [TS]

00:23:32   world and laws to tend not to change and everything. [TS]

00:23:35   But once we get about that the ones [TS]

00:23:37   and zeros we draw a hard line there we say look if anything happens below that that's not our problem isn't our fault [TS]

00:23:42   that's not a software bug [TS]

00:23:43   and in practice that's not where our that's not where our problems are like yet it does happen hardware fails right. [TS]

00:23:48   But nobody blames the software gosh that people blame the software guys for all the other times something goes wrong [TS]

00:23:53   then the hardware is functioning perfectly fine. Yeah I mean I don't know I did stuff because like I said I see this. [TS]

00:24:00   Both sides [TS]

00:24:00   and I understand what Dr Treng is offended by also a lot of pretty much no one surprisingly agree with everything you [TS]

00:24:06   just said so we can move on from this summit to to see us in the chat room the ones that complex math. [TS]

00:24:14   Yeah maybe that qualifies Although yeah kind of a lot of math to analyze that [TS]

00:24:20   but what matters a little bit different in that it's less built and more discovered. [TS]

00:24:26   You know it doesn't it doesn't do anything [TS]

00:24:28   but you know everything is like you know you're discovering properties that were already there [TS]

00:24:34   or you're building you know you're building new ways of expressing things that are already there [TS]

00:24:38   and proving things that already work like it's a little bit different in that you're not like you're not as much a [TS]

00:24:44   building up these whole systems of things that could be like three quarters wrong [TS]

00:24:48   or you know would only work in you know eighty percent of the possible cases like usually math is a little more well [TS]

00:24:54   grounded than that and it's more provable [TS]

00:24:56   and you know kind of built more slowly over the years so that it's one hundred percent for a boy. [TS]

00:25:00   That's what the find it like [TS]

00:25:01   but like it's not you're not building a little machine to do something like math is a pleasurable to every machine that [TS]

00:25:06   we make of course but like [TS]

00:25:07   when you're doing math you're like you're not concerned you're not trying to make a thing to do something you're trying [TS]

00:25:12   to you know sort of explore the nature of truth you know the only real truth we have some better make the [TS]

00:25:17   mathematicians happy and other people suggested music and storytelling. [TS]

00:25:21   Lots of things that human do is like love is more complicated [TS]

00:25:24   but like it's much harder to define a bug in storytelling and music and stuff like that [TS]

00:25:31   and those things are those are kind of executable where you can play them like the music doesn't like the music isn't [TS]

00:25:38   isn't meant to like if it makes one person center than another that's not a bug if one person finds it boring one [TS]

00:25:44   person finds it amazing that's also not a boat like it's not yeah it's difficult. [TS]

00:25:49   Like again tons of things that people do are harder [TS]

00:25:51   and more difficult more complicated than per se what what we make is programmers because it's so completely artificial [TS]

00:25:58   and also so complex and. No no a thing. [TS]

00:26:01   Nothing to stand on like it is the world of one of the theories that we have collectively built up [TS]

00:26:05   and it is you know woodpecker would destroy it if it was made of wood [TS]

00:26:09   and doesn't take it would take dust motes can kill floating there in the wrong spot [TS]

00:26:14   and again like all the steel turned to liquid and when the yellow car runs over it and it would make a move on please. [TS]

00:26:20   Really quick real time follow up Firstly it is math not maths. [TS]

00:26:24   You people that are hailing from the British Empire are crazy and I know we have to but at least we got that right. [TS]

00:26:31   And secondly when I said race earlier it's not about race I meant the human race last the species of humans. [TS]

00:26:38   So before we get a thousand e-mails actually it's probably too late. [TS]

00:26:40   So let's talk about software methodologies [TS]

00:26:43   and do a little fault on that because Marco isn't already bitter enough a lot of people wrote in [TS]

00:26:48   and said hey you got agile totally wrong and to some degree they were right [TS]

00:26:54   and I should say that agile began as a manifesto and that manifesto all kind of get to you in a second [TS]

00:27:01   but it was more about here's the things we value [TS]

00:27:05   and less about here's the steps that you should take in order to do these things and what I had talked about [TS]

00:27:12   and I think all of us had talked about was more hey when you're when you're a soldier on the ground so to speak [TS]

00:27:19   and I mean that very very figuratively when you're when you're working developer this is what agile [TS]

00:27:26   and scrum tend to mean and it tends to mean things like stand ups and stories and points and so on so forth. [TS]

00:27:33   So those of you who wrote in about Agile being more about a series of ideals rather than a series of steps you're [TS]

00:27:42   absolutely right and I should have specified that. [TS]

00:27:45   Additionally a lot of people have written in and pointed to a post that was very pressure [TS]

00:27:50   and worked out how the timing was great post by Dave Thomas not the Wendy's guy but the agile guy and his post is. [TS]

00:28:00   Agile is dead long live agility and the T.L. D.R. Of that is. [TS]

00:28:05   Hey agile in the sense of a series of things that you need to do really is kind of B.S. [TS]

00:28:12   Again agile is really about here's the values that we have. [TS]

00:28:17   So he says and I'm quoting from this article look again at the four values [TS]

00:28:21   and these are the this is the Agile Manifesto that I mentioned earlier. [TS]

00:28:25   We value individuals in interactions over processes [TS]

00:28:27   and tools we value working software over comprehensive documentation. [TS]

00:28:32   We value customer collaboration over contract negotiation and we value responding to change over following a plan. [TS]

00:28:40   So that's the ideal. That's what agile really really is. [TS]

00:28:43   So Dave goes on to say you know how to do it to prescribe standups to prescribe scrum to prescribe stories to to [TS]

00:28:52   prescribe any of that is really B.S. [TS]

00:28:55   So let's get back to the basics and he says here's how to do something in an agile fashion what to do. [TS]

00:29:01   Find out where you are. Take a small step towards your goal. [TS]

00:29:04   Adjust your understanding based on what you learned and repeat. And here's how to do it. [TS]

00:29:08   When faced with two [TS]

00:29:09   or more alternatives that deliver roughly the same value take the path that makes future change easier [TS]

00:29:16   and I'm continuing to quote. And that's it. [TS]

00:29:18   Those four lines in one practice encompass everything there is to know about effective software development. [TS]

00:29:23   Of course this involves a fair amount of thinking in the basic loop is nested factoring inside itself many times as you [TS]

00:29:28   focus on everything from variable naming to long term delivery. [TS]

00:29:31   But anyone who comes up with something bigger or more complex is just trying to sell you something [TS]

00:29:35   and to be honest this is pretty much right. [TS]

00:29:39   This is true [TS]

00:29:40   and I stand by our last episode I stand by all the things I said not on all the things that we said because agile [TS]

00:29:46   and scrum as they are perceived today boils down to those things [TS]

00:29:50   but if you really really try to break it down to what is the the genesis of all of this it's really programming [TS]

00:29:59   or developing. With agility and that's what David's talking about. [TS]

00:30:02   Yeah I read this thing to do [TS]

00:30:04   and what it reminded me of is the idea that we see it played out many times that any idea whether it's a reaction to [TS]

00:30:13   previous ideas are entirely novel new idea about how someone might do something better. [TS]

00:30:20   Inevitably falls victim to the sort of innate human desire for simple answers like you know Fred Brooks no silver [TS]

00:30:27   bullet. Everybody wants the silver ball right. [TS]

00:30:29   And so if someone has an idea like Agile where it's like well you know I reaction to it like if you say the opposite of [TS]

00:30:36   all those points like let's let's you know do a whole bunch of planning up front take big steps instead of small steps [TS]

00:30:41   let's let's get a full complete understanding of the problem before we start instead of like getting the next any human [TS]

00:30:46   to like their opposites of each other and in many ways agile as a reaction to methodologies that have come before it [TS]

00:30:50   or you know systems of working that have come before [TS]

00:30:54   but once you put it out into the world it does not take long for it to snowball into like the Silver Bullet people get [TS]

00:31:00   their hands on and the books come out in the seminars and the courses and the consultants [TS]

00:31:03   and like that is inevitable any idea doesn't mean the idea is wrong or dead or bad. [TS]

00:31:07   Any idea you put out there [TS]

00:31:09   or even any technology will be absorbed into the gigantic culture of things that that you know sort of give people what [TS]

00:31:16   they want. [TS]

00:31:16   People want to know that you can hire a bunch of consultants fell swoop in teach everyone in your organization how to [TS]

00:31:21   do X. In the new way whether it be like six sigma or all those things that your dad could tell you about from the I.B.M. [TS]

00:31:28   Days and you know quality first in the stack like someone's always selling Here's a new way you're going to work [TS]

00:31:34   and it always gets perverted from what the original intention was made into a caricature [TS]

00:31:38   and just becomes a money machine for consultants and other people [TS]

00:31:42   and I don't think that they thought of the original ideas and it's kind of a shame [TS]

00:31:46   but I think it's a natural life cycle of any idea about how people can do things better. [TS]

00:31:51   So agile has traveled that path [TS]

00:31:54   and so you know we see technologies travel that powerful time as well you know every technology everybody has somewhere. [TS]

00:32:00   On a continuum and sometimes they wrap back around to get a second run out and change [TS]

00:32:03   but it doesn't make me think any more or less or agile. [TS]

00:32:07   I just think that I feel I feel a bit more comfortable with agile now now that it has sort of run through its first [TS]

00:32:14   kind of burst onto the scene. Everyone has to do this. [TS]

00:32:17   Actually it's not that great a backlash settling down to like yeah it's just one of those other ideas out there that's [TS]

00:32:23   in the mix. [TS]

00:32:24   And now we can refer to it our collective knowledge of it is enough in sort of a vague sense to say that's our [TS]

00:32:31   counterbalance against you know waterfall or whatever like it's it's another idea that's out there [TS]

00:32:37   and hopefully this point. [TS]

00:32:39   We all know it's not silver bullet a mortgage we've gone through the back slapping backs backslash. [TS]

00:32:44   My God give it back to last year just what the hell backlash the backlash phase [TS]

00:32:50   and we're on to sort of the steady state now we're just waiting for whatever the next popular ideas I mean to do the [TS]

00:32:54   same thing with extreme programming and pair programming like I like that life cycle I think it's valuable. [TS]

00:33:01   I think just maybe like people who sort of come of age [TS]

00:33:05   and like whatever ideas the first idea like that that they see they may drink the koolaid [TS]

00:33:09   and think this is the one this is we're going to change everything but like if you've been through six [TS]

00:33:12   or seven cycles that you're like oh well that's just the next new popular idea. [TS]

00:33:17   Wait for it to sort of settle down and then we'll get the value out of a tester in development the whole nine yards. [TS]

00:33:23   One thing that always also tends to happen with these ideas or methodology is like you know how when you [TS]

00:33:29   when you try to explain something to someone who is really new at computers he try to explain or do something [TS]

00:33:34   and the way they remember to do it you know they don't remember save the document. [TS]

00:33:39   They Remember click on the File menu click on Save. [TS]

00:33:42   You know like they remember the steps before they before they conceptualize the concept [TS]

00:33:47   or you know it's probably very similar to how people in foreign languages [TS]

00:33:50   but you know from from like translating in your head every word to becoming fluent. [TS]

00:33:54   It's a difference between following procedures and really understanding and internalizing it. [TS]

00:34:00   And you know agile was seemingly started by a group of people who really understood these concepts who really deeply [TS]

00:34:08   got them and what once it started becoming this this procedure and you know steps that you could follow [TS]

00:34:15   and you know part of that was their manifesto part of it was what everyone else added afterwards. [TS]

00:34:21   You know then it loses the understanding and it started becoming like a manual a series of steps a procedure [TS]

00:34:28   and it needs to be because in order to generalize that to a big organization this is where the difference is that we [TS]

00:34:33   talked about last week between a small organization the big organizations. [TS]

00:34:38   Once you generalize this past a very small group it has to be a procedure it has to be code a fighter has to become [TS]

00:34:44   instructions. [TS]

00:34:45   And inevitably Not everyone involved is going to be able to rise above that you know the letter of the law [TS]

00:34:52   and figure and just and gain a complete understanding. [TS]

00:34:55   And over enough time I think that's what kind of ruins these things because that happens on a on a grand scale to [TS]

00:35:02   almost everyone involved in it. [TS]

00:35:05   People don't want to understand the philosophy they just like just tell me what do I care what they want they want they [TS]

00:35:10   want this over a book like it's not even to that they can't grasp it [TS]

00:35:13   or like it they don't even want that they're like all right so you've done all that thinking. [TS]

00:35:16   Now tell me what to do and it's like no you don't understand. [TS]

00:35:19   Like in the future mentation understanding the ideas that led me to these practices will be much more helpful to you [TS]

00:35:24   than the practices themselves and that's not something people want to hear. [TS]

00:35:29   All right do we want to cover this question from Paul today or would we rather shelve that for another day. [TS]

00:35:35   I'll bring it up because I actually was on the one on one added it so all right so a guy named Paul sent us a feedback [TS]

00:35:40   form thing saying I'm a computer science professor [TS]

00:35:43   and I'm always curious what particular things that we teach turn out to be useful in the end you would ask each other [TS]

00:35:49   last week what one thing you would take from software methodology. [TS]

00:35:51   My question is What are the one or two things from your C.S. Education that you find the most useful when coding. [TS]

00:35:59   I mean for me. [TS]

00:36:00   I would say it student I would say one is the operating systems course where we went all the way down into deep [TS]

00:36:08   explanations [TS]

00:36:09   and some some playing with like little seekers mostly people of what an operating system does in lots of different [TS]

00:36:16   problems memory management scheduling interrupt stuff like that like you know the basics of what US is doing. [TS]

00:36:23   That was very helpful to us because it gives me a major understanding of things that we have to deal with every day [TS]

00:36:30   things like concurrency things like threading and locking [TS]

00:36:32   and everything that it it really helps that memory management really helps to know that that sort of thing [TS]

00:36:38   and the second thing for me is it you know at my school you know [TS]

00:36:45   and I think this is common everywhere they were as they were a couple of like intermediate level courses where you [TS]

00:36:49   basically just did like a new programming language every week for something [TS]

00:36:54   and so we get to explore all sorts of different languages. [TS]

00:36:57   Briefly shallowly but we get you know if we get some experience [TS]

00:37:02   and the basic concepts of lots of different types of languages [TS]

00:37:06   and that's the kind of thing that in the real world it's harder to get because it's harder to justify work harder to [TS]

00:37:11   find the time for you know it's easy to fall into the trap in the real world which I'm certainly guilty of myself of [TS]

00:37:17   you know just going really deep on whatever you do work and not really exploring lots of new things. [TS]

00:37:22   And certainly there are so many new things coming out these days it's almost impossible to explore them all. [TS]

00:37:27   But in a calm side to cation they at least they get when they kind of forced you to. [TS]

00:37:33   And so like I know the basics of languages I've never used in the real world like lisp like I know the basics of Lisp I [TS]

00:37:38   don't know if you sat me down in front of you know a list codebase until Mr working I would have some trouble it would [TS]

00:37:43   take me a while to get back into it but like I know the basic concepts [TS]

00:37:46   and you know stuff like that like there's that was a very a very valuable thing to me to to force me to experience a [TS]

00:37:54   lot of new concepts that you wouldn't really ever have time or reason to in the real world most of the time. [TS]

00:38:01   I would say that I actually exchanged a couple emails with John because I didn't realize that this was going to be [TS]

00:38:07   covered in the show in action and I blamed John for heading into the show notes Little did I know it was you Marko. [TS]

00:38:12   But what I had said to him was the thing that I think I value the most from my education which is going to sound really [TS]

00:38:21   ridiculous but I stand by it. [TS]

00:38:23   Is learning what a pointer is because pretty much all of the development that I've done professionally in C. [TS]

00:38:32   Plus plus in C. Sharp even in Javascript and certainly an Objective C. [TS]

00:38:38   All of that all of it comes down to it some point or another truly understanding what a pointer is and C. [TS]

00:38:47   Sharp is a great example because any time you have a class. [TS]

00:38:49   So if you don't have a struct here [TS]

00:38:51   and you don't have a primitive type if you have a class it is always always always always passed by reference so you [TS]

00:38:57   whenever you're dealing with a class you're always dealing with what is under the hood a pointer. [TS]

00:39:03   But I have dealt with so many C. [TS]

00:39:05   Sharp developers many of whom I would actually classify as very good developers that don't. [TS]

00:39:12   That fundamentally do not understand that concept. And so in C. [TS]

00:39:18   Sharp when you pass a class instance into a method or I should back up [TS]

00:39:24   when you pass anything into a method you could say you can explicitly state that you would like to pass this by [TS]

00:39:30   reference. So for example if you have a string that you might manipulate in a method. [TS]

00:39:34   Dot Net has call time passed by reference. One of P.H.P. Is worst features are they finally removed recently. [TS]

00:39:40   Yes and it has it. [TS]

00:39:42   Yes Wow And it has always had it and so a better example would probably be like an integer so I have an integer [TS]

00:39:48   and I call a method and I'd like that method to be able to modify that energy [TS]

00:39:52   or what I can do is I can say that I am passing this by reference and thus I am I am passing basically a point. [TS]

00:40:00   Here today an integer. [TS]

00:40:01   Well all classes by default are pass by reference you know you're just throwing pointers around so many times the same [TS]

00:40:07   way that you would say I am I am specifically passing this integer by reference. [TS]

00:40:13   I will see people use that same key word which happens to be wrath [TS]

00:40:17   or yeah I will see people put wraps in front of a class which is redundant because you're always passing a class by [TS]

00:40:23   reference and so they clearly just fundamentally do not understand what's happening here [TS]

00:40:31   and I think that that's true not just of C. Sharp clearly it's true in C. Plus plus clearly it's true in Objective C. [TS]

00:40:38   and I would argue it's true of many many many other languages as well. [TS]

00:40:41   Even say Javascript you have to understand what's going on under the hood [TS]

00:40:44   and so truly honestly understanding what a pointer is I think is the thing that I am most not proud of [TS]

00:40:51   but most thankful for for my education. [TS]

00:40:55   Right [TS]

00:40:55   and you know it helps to understand what's going on under the hood even if you don't have to deal with it because it [TS]

00:41:01   lets you it lets you make better decisions up top like at the level you're working at even if you're working at a very [TS]

00:41:06   high level. Even work in Java Script a very high level. [TS]

00:41:10   You're still by knowing what actually is going on all the way you know and all the levels all the way down. [TS]

00:41:17   It does enable you to make better decisions for all your high level coding. [TS]

00:41:21   That's exactly right that's exactly the point I'm driving at John for me I think I mean the easy ones. The sort of C.S. [TS]

00:41:28   Professors I think the easy ones are like just like the basics the stuff you learn like a big O. [TS]

00:41:32   Notation and algorithms and data structures like it's boring but I think you have to learn it like that. [TS]

00:41:38   That's type of thing that if I did if I was in a formal class atmosphere I probably wouldn't have gone off to learn [TS]

00:41:45   that stuff on my own. [TS]

00:41:46   But knowing it like it's not like you need to know it every day and you can just look it up [TS]

00:41:50   but just even having known it like this point I cannot implement a red black tree if you ask me to [TS]

00:41:56   but I know red black trees exist have a vague idea of how they work and if I were to look up an. [TS]

00:42:00   Well taken I would be like oh yeah. Versus being like red black tree what the hell is that what's a treaty or Big O. [TS]

00:42:05   Notation one of those letters mean in the US like that. That's the basics of a C.S. Education I think of my C.S. [TS]

00:42:11   Courses like that's that's what you need to know [TS]

00:42:13   and like you build on that because if you don't have that foundation everything just seems like just like like a [TS]

00:42:20   product like you learn a language [TS]

00:42:22   or like I'm learning this product you wouldn't even see the generalities underneath it and you know some algorithms [TS]

00:42:27   and data structures definitely were very useful [TS]

00:42:29   and I don't know if this was since I was a computer engineering it's like electrical engineering with a few C.S. [TS]

00:42:33   Courses I don't remember if this was technically a C.S. [TS]

00:42:35   Course but the one I found the two I found was one the class where you build your C.V. [TS]

00:42:40   Up from from logic gates which I had for probably isn't C.S. [TS]

00:42:44   but Like that's like is that like the course you have to have I mean like maybe in your class you didn't do like the [TS]

00:42:51   I.S.I. [TS]

00:42:51   I might lay out the chip in like you know we didn't manufacture the like you know doing the electronics design [TS]

00:42:56   and everything like that [TS]

00:42:57   but you know all we have to stack like it helps to come from that perspective you know I'm never going to make my own [TS]

00:43:02   C.P.U. [TS]

00:43:02   Just because like look that is the best way to prove that you understand it actually do it [TS]

00:43:07   and then the other one is the courses I took where I had to do assembly programming I don't even know if they make [TS]

00:43:13   people do this anymore because again maybe this is anything like the reign of microcontrollers and stuff [TS]

00:43:17   but just thousands and thousands and thousands of wind [TS]

00:43:21   when the only reason the thousands because do anything in assembly to expand and Thousand someone can family [TS]

00:43:27   and that [TS]

00:43:28   and in particular one of the presses I remember who was doing my course were doing one of the microcontroller courses [TS]

00:43:36   for assembly. [TS]

00:43:37   He was from A to the telecom background [TS]

00:43:38   and he was like I'm going to show you a structured assembly which is what we use in the telecom industry too so we [TS]

00:43:43   don't go insane and you know like it was like seeing the primordial ooze of C. [TS]

00:43:48   Where it's like we have to know everything in assembly [TS]

00:43:51   but we know if you just do whatever the hell you want an assembly it's chaos [TS]

00:43:53   and so we we've imposed some you know it's been like this the system of conventions [TS]

00:43:57   and structures to allow you to Proxima. [TS]

00:44:00   What you would write [TS]

00:44:00   and you start to see the sea because he retook was on the course after we'd done seeing such a be like oh like I can [TS]

00:44:05   see you basically are like a human compiler like when I write it conditionally I always do it in this form [TS]

00:44:09   and I always use this label when this type of thing so that [TS]

00:44:12   when I squinted someone's code I can if I squint just right. [TS]

00:44:15   That gigantic block of incomprehensible assembler turns into like an F in a while in a break [TS]

00:44:19   and continue you know like that that was very instructive [TS]

00:44:23   but mostly just like the thousands of lines of the sound because there's no way to write thousands of lines in assembly [TS]

00:44:27   and not understand pointers like when I pointed to them from C. [TS]

00:44:30   but [TS]

00:44:31   when I see someone who doesn't understand pointers It's like our job just to seeing your point is they probably won't [TS]

00:44:36   but if you make them understand assembly they'll get it hundred percent guaranteed. [TS]

00:44:40   Yeah I remember I did a course that out that required a lot of assembly you know like the Mits assembly that everyone [TS]

00:44:45   else had to do. [TS]

00:44:46   Around that time and one of the hardest things about that course probably the hardest [TS]

00:44:51   and had to do was during the final exam we were given a block of roughly you know one printed page [TS]

00:44:57   or so of MIT's assembly uncommented And the question is what does this do. [TS]

00:45:02   Stuff [TS]

00:45:03   and it was it was like I was sat there for like a half hour like basically like basically compiling it back to see in [TS]

00:45:09   my head and I make a little note. [TS]

00:45:11   Here's a little loop here and I think I think I would have ended up doing was like finding duplicate substrings [TS]

00:45:17   or something like you know some kind of basic string processing thing [TS]

00:45:20   but it was surprisingly hard to figure that out but that's why [TS]

00:45:23   when you're looking at it if you actually literally have to translate it to see to understand it it's kind of like [TS]

00:45:27   translating the language into English you know so you can understand it right. [TS]

00:45:30   Venture like that's what structured assembly does is let you start to look at the assembly [TS]

00:45:33   and recognize you know the assembly chunks as like the equivalent of an F. but You don't have to translate C. [TS]

00:45:39   To see what it does because there's a regular ization of it you know you don't have to like execute every line in your [TS]

00:45:44   head like visualize the registers in your head and how they're combining [TS]

00:45:48   and keep track of all them on a piece of paper so you can say you know I mean like it starts to take on a form itself [TS]

00:45:53   but the structures algorithms assembly and C.P.U. Design basically just take the whole core. [TS]

00:46:01   You know I hear a lot from people who say that C.S. [TS]

00:46:05   Degrees are useless flash inferior slash not giving them what they want because they're not being taught you know X. Y. [TS]

00:46:12   and Which whatever language is hot at the time at the time [TS]

00:46:15   and you know nothing nothing that we all just mentioned had a lot to do with a particular language that was in [TS]

00:46:22   when we went to college you know if if my college taught me a language [TS]

00:46:27   when I was there they would have taught me Java and in fact in the intro they do teach [TS]

00:46:31   and they pretty quickly abandon it because it doesn't really it's first and then [TS]

00:46:35   when they go to see it in it's have kind of mattering when I would use [TS]

00:46:37   and like for some of the later classes you're already just pick whatever language you want and do your project [TS]

00:46:41   and that which And at the time I was there I was very upset that they weren't teaching me Windows A.P.I. [TS]

00:46:47   Programming like like Net stuff and had which had just come out about halfway through my college career and [TS]

00:46:56   and like it I wasn't learning C. [TS]

00:46:57   Plus plus during college and stuff like that I was so mad [TS]

00:47:00   and what they told me at the time which I'm sure everyone's heard from there comes I professors is it doesn't really [TS]

00:47:06   it's not really their job to teach you the language [TS]

00:47:08   and they're not really doing you a big favor if they spent a whole lot of time teaching you a particular language [TS]

00:47:13   because chances are your education will go out of date much sooner if you spent half of it learning whatever language [TS]

00:47:20   was popular at the time that you went to college and. [TS]

00:47:24   And in reality like all the stuff you do learn in college or in a good C.S. [TS]

00:47:28   Department all the theoretical stuff in the basic principles [TS]

00:47:31   and everything there's really never a time in the field where you get to learn that like there's really not in the real [TS]

00:47:38   world in the real world workforce there are a lot of opportunities to sit down [TS]

00:47:41   and you know learn bigger Taishan stuff like that and and so and a lot of [TS]

00:47:47   and you don't even know what to look for you know if you didn't get that back [TS]

00:47:49   or you don't even know what to look at them with P.T.O. [TS]

00:47:51   or What what to look up on land or whatever else and so you know part of part of C.S. Is teaching you things that are. [TS]

00:48:00   Are timeless and there are fundamentals and it's hard to see that at the time that you're there. [TS]

00:48:04   But once you're out for a while you appreciate that OK Well yeah now I know the fundamentals. [TS]

00:48:09   It isn't that hard to learn a new language when I have to do my job I can learn language and you know a week or two [TS]

00:48:14   and be pretty good after six months or a year and you know it's it's like you wouldn't want to spend your entire C.S. [TS]

00:48:21   Education on a language that's going to be out of favor five years ten years later as I like the language has got a [TS]

00:48:27   favorite just like in higher ed like they look down their nose at like teaching practical skills that they were not a [TS]

00:48:32   vocational school places not apex tech and get your own tools like they want to teach you the concepts [TS]

00:48:39   and I never had a desire for them to try to teach me like any specific technology and they certainly didn't. [TS]

00:48:46   And also I kind of got the sense that a lot of these professors like we're better mathematicians than they would ever [TS]

00:48:50   be programmers in especially department like they're not programmers like it [TS]

00:48:54   or would want to teach you I think if they would teach you the wrong things [TS]

00:48:57   but what you learned sort of through osmosis is in every class like they just expect you to do OK [TS]

00:49:03   and our exercises are going to be in you know sixteen bit assembler or a C. Plus plus or you know plain old C. [TS]

00:49:10   or Mathematics are like that it doesn't matter like what you're you know or Matlab [TS]

00:49:15   or like every teacher had some tools you need to use or [TS]

00:49:18   and do this this will let you work through whatever it is until you know they'd be teaching you concepts [TS]

00:49:22   and algorithms and stuff like that [TS]

00:49:24   and the tool used to work through them like every class was like oh whatever this professor is like whatever their [TS]

00:49:28   hobby horses they want to do everything in Jolliffe while they're in job [TS]

00:49:31   when you learn the programming language doesn't matter like it as you go like it's an infantile detail of you doing [TS]

00:49:37   your actual job your actual job [TS]

00:49:38   and school is like doing the assignment to understand the concept in your actual job in real jobs is you know making [TS]

00:49:44   the product or whatever [TS]

00:49:45   and it's like well you know if you've never used before you take this class this professor mated excise [TS]

00:49:50   and Java guess what you're going to learn of Java to do the exercise which will probably be actually end up being a lot [TS]

00:49:55   of Java surprisingly but that's not where the teaching in the class like yours expect to be able to pick that up. [TS]

00:50:00   And that is good training for the real world because in the real world Yeah you're just expected to pick it up like [TS]

00:50:04   never done before. Read about it. Buy a book. Figure it out because you need to do your job. Exactly. [TS]

00:50:11   All right our second bunch of this week is our friends once again a transporter at file transporter so file transfer is [TS]

00:50:18   a really cool device. [TS]

00:50:19   It's basically a networked external hard drive [TS]

00:50:22   or a little little puff that you get that transforms one of your hard drive to a networked hard drive that you own [TS]

00:50:28   and control this hardware so you have a hard drive sitting in your house your office you own it you control it it's all [TS]

00:50:35   your data sitting right there on that drive your data's not up in some cloud service it isn't on some of the company's [TS]

00:50:39   servers. It is all right there on your hard drive but it gives you features that are similar to what Dropbox offers. [TS]

00:50:47   So it has if you have more than one of these things let's say you and your friend each have one or you have one [TS]

00:50:52   or home one at work or one of your parents house or whatever. [TS]

00:50:55   You can have them automatically sync and replicate to each other so you can have either part [TS]

00:51:00   or whole so you could do like a shared folder. [TS]

00:51:03   You could do like a backup automatically like a sync keeping these two drives entirely in sync so you always have an [TS]

00:51:08   offsite backup to the shared folders greater collaborating with a team if you want to share big files that may be [TS]

00:51:14   limited me don't fit on Dropbox or maybe buy some kind of regulatory compliance you can't have them and Dropbox [TS]

00:51:19   or you know maybe you just don't want to have your files in a cloud service you know for various privacy [TS]

00:51:23   and security reasons. [TS]

00:51:24   So transporter is this great device it allows to do all these cool things they also in addition to the sink [TS]

00:51:31   and backup nature of these things. [TS]

00:51:33   They also have i OS apps [TS]

00:51:35   and mac apps that allow you to access the files from wherever you are so your transporters could be sitting in your [TS]

00:51:41   house and you could be somewhere else you know in the next city or the next country over with your i West device [TS]

00:51:47   or your mac laptop or whatever the case may be [TS]

00:51:49   and you can access the files on your home transporter without doing any kind of crazy network set up it does all that [TS]

00:51:54   for you. You know that's as good a relay service to do the connection set up but then the files are off the cuff. [TS]

00:52:00   I'm from your transport of the trip the hard drive sitting in your house and so it's never going to be a cloud service. [TS]

00:52:05   It's never the date is never out of your control. [TS]

00:52:07   All the transfer of the CO over the internet are all encrypted [TS]

00:52:10   and they don't have the keys your devices have the keys on both sides and that's it. [TS]

00:52:15   So really there's there's quite a lot you can do with these things. [TS]

00:52:20   It's their software is always getting better they recently updated the mac software [TS]

00:52:23   and have even more Dropbox like features now they can even do so do things like automatically sync to [TS]

00:52:29   and from the transporter and all your other devices automatically sync special force such as your desktop [TS]

00:52:35   or say your music for your pictures for her. [TS]

00:52:37   So these don't even have to be on you know in some special location [TS]

00:52:41   or store just on the transporter they will automatically Cindy's folders from your from your computer between your all [TS]

00:52:47   your other computers which is really nice from the dropbox even do so how do you get one of these things. [TS]

00:52:52   Go to file transporter Store dot com and you can see these things are very reasonably priced. [TS]

00:52:57   The best thing about this there are no monthly fees. [TS]

00:53:00   You buy the hardware once upfront and you own it [TS]

00:53:04   and then there's no monthly fees after that which is a huge savings over cloud services especially if you have a lot of [TS]

00:53:09   data. So how do you get one of these things this is great one time purchase no monthly fees. [TS]

00:53:14   The transporter sync which is a little thing that you it's like a little park and you plug in any U.S.B. [TS]

00:53:19   Hard drive you already have and it has a network putting aside and automatically double these things for you. [TS]

00:53:23   Transporter sync is just ninety nine dollars. [TS]

00:53:26   There's a five hundred gig transporter with a built in hard drive five hundred gigs for one ninety nine one terabyte [TS]

00:53:32   for two forty nine and two terabytes for just three forty nine [TS]

00:53:35   and you can save an additional ten percent off of all those prices at file transfer of COM save an additional ten [TS]

00:53:42   percent by using coupon code A.T.P. So go check it out. [TS]

00:53:46   File transporter Store dot com see how these things can really help you have the feature set of these things is [TS]

00:53:51   incredible and it keeps getting bigger and bigger as they update the software and do all sorts of cool stuff. [TS]

00:53:56   So thanks a lot to file transporter for sponsoring our show once again. [TS]

00:54:01   So Marco last episode [TS]

00:54:04   and a half hearted attempt to derail me from my beloved software methodology so that was full hearted in her mouth. [TS]

00:54:12   You announced to the world on the show that you had received your trash can. [TS]

00:54:17   I'm sorry your new computer you know as a trash can it's pretty crappy. [TS]

00:54:22   We have like that top or so of actual volume in there [TS]

00:54:25   and if you put a bag in there then the fan can pull the air out so it's kind of a bad trash can out you know typical [TS]

00:54:31   typical Apple overpriced. [TS]

00:54:34   Can you put one of those blow up men like they have in front of a car dealership [TS]

00:54:37   and they're like well you have the arms. [TS]

00:54:40   What's the line from Family Guy like the crazy inflatable or waving guy or whatever. [TS]

00:54:44   Why do you waving inflatable aren't willing to make. Somebody has to make one of those for them. [TS]

00:54:49   I'm sure I'm sure it's going to happen. [TS]

00:54:51   You know leave it up to like I don't know but if you see somebody is going to make one of those. But yeah I don't. [TS]

00:54:59   Yeah I mean what you want to so I give a little quick thing at the end of last show during the after show [TS]

00:55:03   and you know basically there's not that much a talk about it's faster which I knew going into it from benchmarks [TS]

00:55:10   and there is a certain nuance to the faster ness. [TS]

00:55:17   So my previous macro I had gotten one of those but if you see Excelsior cards which is basically a P.C.I. [TS]

00:55:24   Express card with two little S.S.D. Would two little serially D. [TS]

00:55:29   Cards in RAID zero controlled by the card and then it shows up to the system as just one drive. [TS]

00:55:35   So one of those you know cheapo software it kind of things I imagine [TS]

00:55:38   and so that you know there's a lot of wires of intricacy there are a lot of translation layers a lot of lot of [TS]

00:55:45   components on the new one the S.S.D. [TS]

00:55:48   Is not only a higher grade higher you know higher speed flash [TS]

00:55:52   and presumably a more advanced controller than what these were using because it's just simply newer [TS]

00:55:57   but also the new S.S.D. Is P.C.I. Express native. And I'm not entirely sure on the intricacies of how these work. [TS]

00:56:03   But as far as I know that requires fewer levels of translation fewer bridge in-vitro chips along the way. [TS]

00:56:10   So what it what it is compared to the old MacPro It is simply more consistent [TS]

00:56:16   and it feels like there are fewer bottlenecks and this is all very hard to measure at this my are holed up in this. [TS]

00:56:22   This might be like audio file cables like this. [TS]

00:56:24   This might not hold up to which I call upon a lady [TS]

00:56:27   but if I say pano pano I don't know I thought it was pronounced piece of crap. It will say that. [TS]

00:56:35   So how do you pronounce it in a triangle. [TS]

00:56:39   So it's faster and it's faster not only you know like I've done a bunch hand-written code since I got it [TS]

00:56:45   and so then they are so you know at least fifty percent faster then you know just just on the frame rate to hit that [TS]

00:56:53   handbrake reports I'd say fifty percent on some one thing that I think bench bears that out. [TS]

00:56:59   So it is faster but it also feels more consistent. [TS]

00:57:02   It feels like there are fewer little bottlenecks little hiccups here and there the Excelsior [TS]

00:57:07   or not I'm not sure I'd recommend it because well first of all it's now a dated now you know the era of P.C.I. [TS]

00:57:14   Express card aftermarket cards is pretty limited now [TS]

00:57:19   but I'm not sure I recommend it simply because you can now get one terabyte it has eased into the half inch bays for [TS]

00:57:27   like five hundred bucks or so. [TS]

00:57:30   So it's not as necessary and B I always it always felt a little bit inconsistent in its performance [TS]

00:57:37   and that could just be in my head I don't know. [TS]

00:57:39   Beyond that with the new one it's it's a lot quieter and I really it's a dramatic difference. [TS]

00:57:47   Like I always thought the macro was quiet but man this is this is even quieter I would say it's quieter in most use. [TS]

00:57:55   Then my MacBook Pro and not you know not the math of procreating it's manner highly. Quieter than an Apple Pro at idle. [TS]

00:58:02   To my ears but again that could just be that that isn't a precise measurement I haven't taken on but I do have an S.P.L. [TS]

00:58:08   Meter I should try to but anyway. If you've ever go anyway. So overall it's fantastic there. [TS]

00:58:16   There's not that much more to say though it's it's just fantastic. It is not you know four times faster C.P.U. [TS]

00:58:24   Wise than my old one but it is faster and it is really really nice and it looks awesome [TS]

00:58:33   and look even better once again as we've gotten top So yeah overall I give it a thumbs up. [TS]

00:58:38   What are you doing with your old macro is that getting the queen's to TIFF. [TS]

00:58:43   If so what's happening to Tess will tip has the identical model. [TS]

00:58:47   She actually got hers back in twenty time when it was new so she is. [TS]

00:58:52   I'm going to what I'm saying is tentatively I'm assuming that in roughly a year maybe a little bit less than a year. [TS]

00:59:00   The next mac pro will be out that'll have the has well E.P. [TS]

00:59:03   Chips and that will unlike this one that will actually come with a per clock performance gain. [TS]

00:59:10   So we should see a nice single threaded jump there the same way we do now with Leno. [TS]

00:59:14   That's that's the whole reason why the IMAX [TS]

00:59:17   and Napa pros now are occasionally in some measure much faster than the new pro in single threaded stuff because they [TS]

00:59:23   have the has well cores and they have a little bit more efficiency peroxide on how much they can get done. [TS]

00:59:28   So those that have not come to the on line yet so that is not in the new MacPro [TS]

00:59:32   but it will be in the new MacPro probably a year from now so I'm guessing a year from now I'll buy one of those for [TS]

00:59:39   myself and I give this one the test of a great her she really wants one too it's so much quieter and so much smaller [TS]

00:59:45   and that it physically will help a lot in our office like the like I still have my old one sitting below my desk here [TS]

00:59:50   but it's going to having this little tiny cylinder on top of my desk instead of the tremendous tower below my desk is [TS]

00:59:56   going to allow me to like totally rearrange the physical space here. And same thing on her side of the office. [TS]

01:00:02   So there's a lot of genes there that are not just you know the specs [TS]

01:00:06   but just the physicality of it you know the the size the noise the cables. [TS]

01:00:10   Stuff like that So overall a plus one thing I noticed [TS]

01:00:15   when I restored to it so I I haven't been doing this Clunes recently which I think is a mistake I'm going to start [TS]

01:00:21   doing that again. [TS]

01:00:22   I've been relying on a combination of Time Machine and online backup and so I so when I got this new [TS]

01:00:29   and I did a restore from time machine over the network and with post on this analogy box I don't have to have [TS]

01:00:35   but I stopped covered harddrive enclosures [TS]

01:00:37   and Time Machine restorer worked great except that certain things aren't backed up time machine and it's annoying [TS]

01:00:45   and i took me and I still haven't quite figured out what overall has been executed. You know the data is all there. [TS]

01:00:53   The apps are all there [TS]

01:00:53   but like certain apps lost their preferences certain key chain things although not all of the key chain mysteriously [TS]

01:01:00   certain key chain things aren't there and I had to reintroduce that sort of stuff. [TS]

01:01:03   Certain apps like losing losing entire configurations of some apps and I don't know why that is [TS]

01:01:10   but it was not a perfect clone and so I so I I want to get back into the cloning business again [TS]

01:01:16   and I haven't quite decided how to do that I'd rather not have a desk with harddrive enclosures on it so I'm thinking [TS]

01:01:23   maybe of trying I suppose you with the phonology but I suppose he requires a kernel extension [TS]

01:01:28   and that's uncomfortable so I don't know I'm actually curious to hear from listeners like if you do I skuzzy does it is [TS]

01:01:36   is it a pain in the butt basically like with oh S. [TS]

01:01:39   Upgrade is a pain [TS]

01:01:40   but it's a bug is it weird why do you need to use I tell you I'm sure to stew a super duper clone to a disk image [TS]

01:01:46   Honor's analogy I suppose I could do that [TS]

01:01:49   but then how do you restart from that same way just as you were just you know I guess you got the whole thing to boot [TS]

01:01:55   from but they just need their own super and you get into a state where you can run super duper and then clone from. [TS]

01:02:00   The disk image back onto your drive. [TS]

01:02:02   You need like kind of an in between a drive to be like your your way station because you can't clone onto a drive that [TS]

01:02:08   you're booted from but that's not I mean that's not hard to do if you do that on a U.S.B. [TS]

01:02:12   Cable like assuming you can boot from it. [TS]

01:02:15   One thing I have a thought about actually was was just just getting a bus powered two [TS]

01:02:20   and a half inch hard drive enclosure that was like a one terabyte disk [TS]

01:02:23   and therefore it will cost substantially less than the I scale the software for it for me [TS]

01:02:30   and I just like you know zip tied to the bottom my debts when you can see it [TS]

01:02:34   but I'm not sure I wouldn't hear it I'm assuming it could be put to sleep if you were near [TS]

01:02:38   and I have a bus powered one terabyte and it's even black just like a macro is already there. [TS]

01:02:43   Oh it's like the Dr go to sleep you would leave it on mounted most of the time and you'll never hear it. [TS]

01:02:49   Yeah I think I think I might try that first because that's that's just so much easier [TS]

01:02:53   and then the other thing is I actually one of the reasons they were trying to ask but. [TS]

01:02:57   But I might also do the the drive strapped to the desk method instead. [TS]

01:03:01   Is that back please does not backup network drives and they've made little hints here [TS]

01:03:08   and there that they might consider in the future but it doesn't seem like they're there in a big rush to do that so. [TS]

01:03:15   And I mention in previous shows that the other options like a crash plan just don't work very well for me with various [TS]

01:03:22   issues so I would love to have I have this like four terabyte share on my phonology that is storing with all my large [TS]

01:03:29   archive files and I right now I use arc on the mac to back it up over the network to Glacier [TS]

01:03:37   and I don't love this set up. [TS]

01:03:40   I don't love that it's on glacier and it's kind of hard for me to get to anything [TS]

01:03:44   but it's too big for us to do a price so I might I don't know I might go back to enclosures [TS]

01:03:51   and just kind of like hide them under my desk somewhere so I can't see them [TS]

01:03:55   and figure out ways of unmounting tricks so they don't hear them. [TS]

01:04:00   So I want to give John a chance to interrogate you [TS]

01:04:03   but really quickly you kind of haven't answered the question So what is your old cheese grater doing just collecting [TS]

01:04:08   dust. [TS]

01:04:10   Well actually it has stopped collecting dust because the fans aren't running into any more sucking dust through it. [TS]

01:04:15   So right now it has pause it's dust collection as well of all of its other activities [TS]

01:04:19   and it's just sitting under my desk in its old spot just as I have been too busy to move [TS]

01:04:24   and I took a trip this past week and so I've been I've been very very busy just organizing things and then [TS]

01:04:30   when I get back. [TS]

01:04:31   Disorganizing things so I will let you know soon how it's going to like I still haven't even rewired [TS]

01:04:39   or unwired like I'm going to one of the standing to finally clean out all these old wires on my desk [TS]

01:04:44   and like take a bunch of news of ties and Recep Tayyip within the gather and I'll stuff [TS]

01:04:47   but if you use a little Velcro things are better than the guys I have some of that I have about twenty of those. [TS]

01:04:54   Problem is that they're big they don't hold very tightly and they themselves collect tons of dust. [TS]

01:04:59   What's big about them they're like they're like a centimetre one at the widest it compared to is a time that's a pretty [TS]

01:05:04   big number that you're spraying away though I found they were very raw just kind of read of the back of my T.V. [TS]

01:05:08   when I got all the T.V. and Tivo and everything and I do those things and I was skeptical. [TS]

01:05:13   They look like they're crap but they worked really well and not a single one has come off your stuff [TS]

01:05:18   and I want to wrap it around enough times [TS]

01:05:19   and I love the fact that I can undo them really tired it's like I can get in there with a needle and undo it [TS]

01:05:24   but I really don't want to. So you just end up cutting arm and that's dangerous. [TS]

01:05:27   So I'm like I'm a convert to the to the soaker things maybe it depends on the brand that I remember where I got it was [TS]

01:05:33   just what I was highly rated Amazon they were super cheap. [TS]

01:05:36   Oh yeah I got a bag of thousands of ties in two thousand and four [TS]

01:05:41   and I have I still have like a quarter of the bag left so I don't like I just cut them lever [TS]

01:05:46   and it changed it's no big deal and you're afraid to actually cut the cables. [TS]

01:05:49   No you like you notices are under in such a way that it can't cut the cable and now I'm here. [TS]

01:05:58   So for now it's just sitting. [TS]

01:06:00   Mayor but are you eventually offloading your macro onto Dan or is it going to be a charity case he'll give it to me. [TS]

01:06:08   I thought you hated that stops I don't want to macro you kid me that's stupid. Exactly who would want an old one. [TS]

01:06:13   I desperately need an S.S.D. [TS]

01:06:17   Hintin tinting my new video card is awesome but like spinning disks on this macro like just it's becoming unbearable. [TS]

01:06:24   If you want the Excelsior [TS]

01:06:25   or I will I'll give it to you for a very very good price because I just want to get rid of it because I have no use for. [TS]

01:06:31   Well you're not you're not selling very well as a kind of weirding system performance not take. [TS]

01:06:37   Well yeah I mean I just I have no idea how to use that like it for me to eat free if I want to keep using that I would [TS]

01:06:43   have to buy a thunderbolt a P.C.I. [TS]

01:06:45   Express enclosure which is like three hundred bucks an hour you can use it a new hard drive a new S.S.D. [TS]

01:06:51   Of the same size is five hundred bucks [TS]

01:06:53   and is going to be probably faster because it's new now so I don't know I'm not like [TS]

01:06:59   and it's a problem if the new two and having to drive is five hundred bucks. [TS]

01:07:03   Look I really sell this one for you know I mean this one might be faster because it's in the slot but I don't know. [TS]

01:07:10   Anyway this is all boring so let's move on but yeah basically it's awesome. [TS]

01:07:15   There's not that much to say about you know there's I don't have any software as far as I know that takes advantage of [TS]

01:07:20   that of the dual G.P. [TS]

01:07:21   Used to do computations of like that so it really isn't that interesting it [TS]

01:07:25   but right now it's just a really awesome very fast extremely quiet workstation which is what I wanted [TS]

01:07:33   and so I'm very happy. [TS]

01:07:35   John no questions I was going to say and Mark already touched on this [TS]

01:07:39   but it's kind of a shame that machine is so expensive because of the sort of life change that it brings about is going [TS]

01:07:44   to be such that like once you have that astrology is great it's your house [TS]

01:07:47   and you've had to go off on this for a while you're going to like see the cheese grater at someone else's place [TS]

01:07:52   or something and be like people used to have those things under a desk [TS]

01:07:56   or the size of the idea you made a fire is like it's going to be seen as going to seem absurd. [TS]

01:08:00   Just because it's such a you don't realize how small these things are until you see them in person like in one of those [TS]

01:08:07   pictures online showing an X. [TS]

01:08:08   Thirty four cube which was like oh my god they put the whole computer into a cube probably smaller like it's skinnier [TS]

01:08:15   or similar heights. It's just it's it's an unbelievable change in the size of things they were forced to live with. [TS]

01:08:24   It really got people interested in the macro again who weren't interested for years I mean the MacPro is for the first [TS]

01:08:30   time ever it was even even when the cheese grater one first came out in two thousand and six. [TS]

01:08:37   It was never like a hot item. [TS]

01:08:40   Now this new one is a hot item they made it cool again [TS]

01:08:43   and that's almost almost completely because of physical you know superficial things but that matters. [TS]

01:08:48   Yeah I mean that's part of the product where it matters to innovation. [TS]

01:08:52   You know social is ask any more like it matters to all these things and [TS]

01:09:01   and it got people interested in this in this relatively boring out of reach product again and that's really great. [TS]

01:09:08   I mean it makes people wish and makes me which will you know the X. [TS]

01:09:12   and I dream of him I was like damn if it only wasn't so darn expensive like a new one G.P.U. [TS]

01:09:17   and Set it to use a cheaper chip like I mean I guess they kind of can a thought the point of the product [TS]

01:09:21   but you like that form factor is so great that if you just take that form factor [TS]

01:09:26   and change the guts keep the schooling system everything [TS]

01:09:29   but just change the insides to be you know hell even I'm at caliber size just to be able to get like a separate screen [TS]

01:09:37   or like a better G.P.U. A new computer and I could have a desktop G.P.U. [TS]

01:09:40   In there and Apple never do this [TS]

01:09:42   but it is really nice those fantasies of like I love that form factor so much a person should never need to be bigger [TS]

01:09:48   than that in fact they don't need to be as proved by the amazing power that's in this one. [TS]

01:09:52   So why is it that the only way you get one of those is to you know get two giant G.P.U. That are never going to use an. [TS]

01:10:00   Super expensive server chip to be fair the the four and six core chips are actually pretty competitively priced. [TS]

01:10:06   The eight and twelve cores are ridiculous but the four and the pricing on the forensics is actually pretty good [TS]

01:10:12   and not that far above regular intel consumer Seaview pricing I was not before. [TS]

01:10:17   I mean this is like the other expensive uses out for what you can't. What if I just want one. [TS]

01:10:21   Tough tough luck you know. Yeah exactly. So you know but overall it's an even use stuff they like. [TS]

01:10:29   So I for for large expensive things like this where it's practical to I keep the boxes around the shipping boxes [TS]

01:10:35   and the internal boxes so that when I go to sell them three to five years [TS]

01:10:38   or whatever down the line I can put them back in their box and it's easier and it saves them money [TS]

01:10:43   and everything else and I know it's relatively safe. [TS]

01:10:46   So in my basement I have two giant mac pro boxes from the from mine and saves old ones [TS]

01:10:52   and this one the box is like the size of a bookshelf speaker but even that is an improvement [TS]

01:11:00   and I just you know you never think about but it all adds up. I think about it as I have. [TS]

01:11:06   Indeterminant are much larger than to a number of those which is great about this [TS]

01:11:11   and they're ridiculous like they're massive They did get smaller a time where they're not but only slightly. [TS]

01:11:18   Member when I when I sold my old one to Dan Benjamin they cost me over one hundred dollars to ship it. [TS]

01:11:24   They That's how big these parks and how every day I mean it's just just incredible. [TS]

01:11:28   So anyway talk to me how you are going to give us new for good price anyway. [TS]

01:11:33   We're also sponsored this week our final sponsor before we move on to more macro to find discussion. [TS]

01:11:38   Final part of this week is taking once again ting is mobile that makes sense. There are no B.S. [TS]

01:11:44   Simple to use mobile service provider from the people at two thousand the company behind hover thing which is a [TS]

01:11:49   reseller of a Sprint network in the U.S. They have great rates and there's no contracts or early termination fees. [TS]

01:11:56   You own your device out right from the start there. [TS]

01:12:00   True pay for what you use pricing model so you pay a base price of six dollars per month per device [TS]

01:12:05   and then you're automatically billed for the actual amount of minutes messages [TS]

01:12:09   and megabytes that you use each month above that. [TS]

01:12:12   So this is great for if you have fluctuating usage which let's face it most of us do. [TS]

01:12:16   Let's say you have like one hundred megs of usage one month [TS]

01:12:19   and data next month you are traveling you use a gig it doesn't matter. [TS]

01:12:22   You pay you little bucketed rates for those two rates. [TS]

01:12:25   You don't have to remember to like call ahead and raise your cap and then call ahead and you know do it again [TS]

01:12:30   when you get back [TS]

01:12:31   and lower back down to build next month for the high level just automatically you get billed what you actually use each [TS]

01:12:37   month and no more. [TS]

01:12:39   And their prices are even lower so five hundred gigs sorry five hundred megs of data is just twelve bucks [TS]

01:12:45   and two gigs is twenty nine. So go to A.T.P. [TS]

01:12:49   Ting dot com [TS]

01:12:50   and check out their savings calculator you can see how much you can save by entering in your last few months of usage [TS]

01:12:56   from your cell phone [TS]

01:12:57   and they will still show you this cool graph will say All right well if you continue your average look at that this [TS]

01:13:03   most months you're going to save X. [TS]

01:13:05   Per month roughly with us [TS]

01:13:06   and then over time you can see well after a year you've saved this much you know you will save. [TS]

01:13:12   You know you have to buy your device up front but you'll pay that off in say six months or whatever. [TS]

01:13:16   Great thing the savings calculator on A.T.P. [TS]

01:13:19   Ting dot com They will also pay your early termination fee up to twenty five percent back in service credit up to [TS]

01:13:26   seventy five dollars you get to go out of your existing carrier. [TS]

01:13:31   That's little help there for you [TS]

01:13:33   and also you know with thing there are no contracts there are no service fee there interation fees so they'll be the [TS]

01:13:39   last and the raft right. [TS]

01:13:40   So like cover taking has great customer support they have a no hold no wait phone support policy so you can call them [TS]

01:13:48   in time between eight A.M. and Eight P.M. Eastern and a human being takes a phone who's able to help you. [TS]

01:13:53   So going to take dot com to hear some big news for a while there was this kind of elephant in the room. [TS]

01:13:59   What about the i Phone. [TS]

01:14:00   You know for a while Tim didn't didn't support the i Phone I couldn't get it on a couple months ago they finally got so [TS]

01:14:06   there I was there on the Sprint network so if you get an i Phone four or i Phone four S. [TS]

01:14:11   That is for the Sprint network and you can get it on e Bay you can get it on Amazon you can get on glide new [TS]

01:14:16   or use whatever whatever the case may be and a compatible Sprint device so the i Phone four and four S. [TS]

01:14:21   Have a compatible for a few months now. Big news they just added the i Phone five. [TS]

01:14:25   So get your hands on a sprint i Phone five through them or anyone else and you can use that one thing as well. [TS]

01:14:31   Once again check them out. A.T.P. Dot dot com And thanks a lot for conjuring the show all right. [TS]

01:14:38   So my dad listens to this show and my dad is a bit of an amateur Stereophile audio file whatever you want to call me [TS]

01:14:47   and I'm in this weekend where I know we can go down the road of cable still mattered cetera et cetera [TS]

01:14:53   but he's been giving me a hard time for a while because John had mentioned in the past that he is either seeking [TS]

01:15:00   or had found a new avi receiver and my dad has also just found a new A.V. Receiver and I don't recall what it was. [TS]

01:15:10   But regardless was very interested to hear how John landed or is intending to land on the A.V. [TS]

01:15:17   Receiver of his choice and my father whom I love dearly has been giving me grief every week asking [TS]

01:15:24   when we're going to get to this topic so Dad This one's for you. John tell me about A.V. [TS]

01:15:29   Receivers and only reason I was even looking for an A.V. [TS]

01:15:32   Receiver is because as I think I explained about all I first talking about my T.V. [TS]

01:15:36   Is the number of H T M I pour it on T.V. It seems to be going down even on the super expensive ones of my new fancy T.V. [TS]

01:15:43   Had three H T M I am but I think compared to like four or five a mile one and I remember the exact numbers [TS]

01:15:49   but anyway Les and I I had devices I didn't have any place to plug them in so I needed some kind of solution [TS]

01:15:55   and a receiver is one possible solution but before that I tried to just get an H T M. [TS]

01:16:00   I switch [TS]

01:16:00   and I didn't actually buy any because every time I read reviews of them there was always like a good ten fifteen twenty [TS]

01:16:06   five percent higher stories about how terrible they were. [TS]

01:16:09   Every single one like didn't matter the brand [TS]

01:16:10   or whatever they wanted in our story views were super high end like installed by value added reseller kind of one [TS]

01:16:18   thousand dollar boxes [TS]

01:16:19   and those didn't have any better uses than of any reviews because sites like that don't people who made reviews [TS]

01:16:24   and I was in [TS]

01:16:25   and I like that much any receiver so I resigned myself to getting it received as far as your dad is concerned I don't [TS]

01:16:31   think what I have to say will be useful because this is just a general [TS]

01:16:36   when people ask like what kind of action I buy the more you know about a topic the more you're just inclined to say [TS]

01:16:43   Well it depends on your needs. But that's so true because like for A.V. [TS]

01:16:48   Receivers when I'm reading product reviews I know what I want like I'm basically getting the world's fancy's H.D.M.I. [TS]

01:16:56   Switcher and I have specific features that are specific features that are super important to me [TS]

01:17:01   but that may not be important all the other people and on the reverse the features that most A.V. [TS]

01:17:06   Receivers use talk about what kind of speakers they can power how clean an audio signal they get all [TS]

01:17:11   or all that I don't care about because I'm going to have crappy speakers. They're not going to sound good. [TS]

01:17:16   I'm not buying this thing as a sound system. I don't care about Internet radio I don't care about music playback. [TS]

01:17:22   All these things that are you know may be the primary most important features of a lot of people who are buying A.V. [TS]

01:17:28   Receivers so the one that I bought is probably not important because my needs are so weird like what I wanted was a [TS]

01:17:34   huge number of H.D. My ports the ability to switch the H.D.M.I. [TS]

01:17:37   Ports without turning the device on I mean like on on I know they're always you know you know what I mean like without [TS]

01:17:44   having to think powered on all the time because I'm turning it on and off [TS]

01:17:49   and the ability to hook up all the devices I have like I have I have component video devices like the Playstation two [TS]

01:17:56   and my we in the Game Cube and I have composite input devices. The Game Cube. [TS]

01:18:00   We're going to have composite or component for that [TS]

01:18:02   but I well I have all sorts of legacy devices that once again on the back of my new T.V. [TS]

01:18:06   There's no place to plug them in because you know that's one of the one of video ports no composite video port you know [TS]

01:18:11   all that stuff I want to play stuff [TS]

01:18:13   and we're getting a gigantic receiver box that's got a million plugs in the back of it. [TS]

01:18:16   I'm I will find one that fits all my devices that are tons of A.C.I.M. [TS]

01:18:19   but They can switch in standby mode [TS]

01:18:23   and I don't care about almost anything else so I don't think the one I ended up with this particular useful I ended up [TS]

01:18:28   with a Yamaha. But this is our X.V. [TS]

01:18:33   Six seventy three I should look this up [TS]

01:18:34   and anyway something like that that even the particular model number is interesting because [TS]

01:18:39   when I was looking through the reviews I spent a long time reading reviews about this. [TS]

01:18:43   Again ignoring almost everything that's important to me is looking at the few features that I'm interested in narrowing [TS]

01:18:48   it down. [TS]

01:18:49   There's a newer version of the Yamaha receiver with a slightly higher number like six seventy five instead of six [TS]

01:18:54   seventy three but the features they added I don't care about any of them [TS]

01:18:59   and all of the features that I do care about are identical. [TS]

01:19:02   And there's this thing even so there's a thing [TS]

01:19:04   and I chose it with sort of I run the programmer's bias towards new models like if you write software for a living [TS]

01:19:11   or if you're a software afficionado I may be just me I find myself strangely compelled like I have to get the new [TS]

01:19:18   version of everything [TS]

01:19:19   and the reason why is because it's like empathy like I can empathize with a program you know how good you feel [TS]

01:19:23   when you deleted that massive amount of code is no longer needed to replace it with simpler code even though does [TS]

01:19:28   exactly the same thing even though you may have actually introduced a bug because the old code worked [TS]

01:19:31   but you feel so much better about oh god I can't leave people out there using my old version the new version I deleted [TS]

01:19:37   like seven hundred lines of code is just so much cleaner. [TS]

01:19:40   I got rid of this flag variable you know like you just feel so good about you like please stop crying I came believe [TS]

01:19:46   people in executing that whole program I'm so terribly happy running a new one right. [TS]

01:19:50   So in summary this is a new version of his software. [TS]

01:19:52   I feel that way like I feel that way for them I feel like of course the idea of the new version. [TS]

01:19:57   I can only imagine how much better this new version must be. [TS]

01:20:00   Even if it looks functionally identical on the net a single feature and it's the same speed. [TS]

01:20:03   I just know it's got to be better in the code like I know that feeling well I have the same feeling about like well six [TS]

01:20:09   seventy three [TS]

01:20:09   and six any thought of course you know six seventy five like why would you give the six hundred three it's crazy I'm [TS]

01:20:13   sure they fix tons of bugs and six seventy five and maybe that consolidates of chips and it puts out less heat [TS]

01:20:18   and I can come up with those elaborate fantasy scenarios about why the six seventy five should be better [TS]

01:20:23   but I was good this time and I made myself say no you don't care about like they added better Pandora streaming [TS]

01:20:28   or some other crazy thing where you can plug in and I don't like I'm not going to use those features [TS]

01:20:33   and the six seventy three with a one hundred bucks less than Amazon so I bought the like basically last year's model of [TS]

01:20:39   a receiver [TS]

01:20:40   and it does all the things that it said it would do now the reason I put this thing in here is because despite the fact [TS]

01:20:48   that I was able to shop based on feature stuff one of the things that people don't talk about in their use for the most [TS]

01:20:54   part is how terrible all consumers are in terms of the user interface and how they get together [TS]

01:21:01   and I was thinking about like it's not that hard if if if a programmer is a design A.V. Receiver. [TS]

01:21:06   Like when I conceptualize it and in fact in a lot of the manuals you'll find a big like truth table or grid [TS]

01:21:12   or it's like if input is from this device video input is from this device in or do you put it in that device [TS]

01:21:18   and audio output can be on this output unlike the like a truth table of a matrix of a given these inputs [TS]

01:21:24   and outputs what combinations are valid or much combinations aren't [TS]

01:21:28   and right away this kind of pressure I am sure there are physical you know limitations of like well if you have video [TS]

01:21:33   coming in a composite and you don't have something converts as you can output the video to your television H.D.M.I. [TS]

01:21:37   Unless you have a chip to do that not you know I understand the limitations to define it [TS]

01:21:42   but ideally you'd want look I could take anybody O. [TS]

01:21:44   Source any audio source and put them any any inputs and send them out and the outputs. [TS]

01:21:49   Any combination of obviously that's you know again optimistic there's hard work in trying to stop from you didn't ever [TS]

01:21:54   that's what you'd like is the ideal but within the realm of the things that you can do these inputs. [TS]

01:22:00   Some no doubt but for whatever is valid [TS]

01:22:03   and all the other settings you can have you know the feeling things the balance of the speakers [TS]

01:22:07   and the surround decoding moment [TS]

01:22:10   and if you're sending it out to the seconds on an old like a million features a receiver is better if you visualize all [TS]

01:22:17   those all those settings the bare minimum I think any programmer would do is say give me an ability to save all of the [TS]

01:22:25   current settings under a name and let me select that name and have to change all those settings for that name [TS]

01:22:30   and I've never found a receiver that even does that. They all want to be like. [TS]

01:22:34   Well when you say the setting what you're really saying is when you change this input we implicitly change that [TS]

01:22:38   but you only have one set of speaker level settings or if you have two of those that's a separate scene [TS]

01:22:42   but the scene doesn't affect the inputs and the impulse on effect the surround mode [TS]

01:22:45   and this dialog delay is independently adjustable [TS]

01:22:48   and is not tied to the input of like if it's the most Byzantine mess of crap [TS]

01:22:53   and it's harder I think it's harder for them to do that it like the stupid simple thing is every single setting under a [TS]

01:22:59   name. Whatever the current state of the machine is right now. [TS]

01:23:02   Save the owner name [TS]

01:23:03   and then any time you go back to name everything assigning an entire machine back to that's the stupidest better woman [TS]

01:23:09   you have subsets Here's one set for free speaker level you know. [TS]

01:23:13   Here's one set for input combinations Here's one something like And then you can combine those sets like [TS]

01:23:17   and that's the type of thing [TS]

01:23:17   but I'm not even talking about the just like the stupidest thing a programmer could think of as I have a billion [TS]

01:23:22   settings. [TS]

01:23:23   There's only certain valid states set every cell in the way you want it save it all under name [TS]

01:23:27   and none of them do that. [TS]

01:23:28   So you're basically resigned to say look I basically have to choose one set of speakers else because this this thing [TS]

01:23:34   does not have a choice of a way to change because levels based on inputs or if it does it's a complex [TS]

01:23:39   or some other features I have to resign myself to just pick it [TS]

01:23:41   and compromise there because I'm never going to go into these menus [TS]

01:23:44   and like turn out the Centre Town just a little bit [TS]

01:23:47   when it's on this point because it's just too cumbersome Summers got the kind of a happy medium [TS]

01:23:51   and then for these other features I know these are tied to a preset [TS]

01:23:55   when I change this piece I have to remember to change the other thing because the other thing doesn't follow it with it [TS]

01:23:59   and why. I'm not going to the Blu ray player but the sound coming back from the T.V. [TS]

01:24:02   I don't want to come back on the only return channel because then it's only two channels because of some insane reason [TS]

01:24:07   so I think the OP is out of it I have to but they all do it [TS]

01:24:09   but to be a before that only want to go into the speakers [TS]

01:24:12   and it's like the amount of Basically bottom line is to get to the point where I can work it [TS]

01:24:18   but anywhere else in my family tries to use the television. [TS]

01:24:20   It's too complicated and no a single learning remote won't solve all this because of the timing delays [TS]

01:24:25   and how long it takes. Turn things on and off and it gets into where it states and you really want to disable its T.M.I. [TS]

01:24:30   Control or A.T.C. [TS]

01:24:32   or Vieira caster [TS]

01:24:33   or whatever the hell they call that thing where the mind of an end where you devise a control each other a say Michael [TS]

01:24:38   hundreds more problems to the next in your best bet is just turn that off so you're fighting chance of managing it. [TS]

01:24:44   So in general I think I picked the right receiver for me. [TS]

01:24:48   Probably not the right receiver for everybody [TS]

01:24:49   and everybody who makes receivers should just be like I say taking a shot [TS]

01:24:53   but let's just say given a stern talking to about how our software could do to help them because I feel like they're [TS]

01:25:01   trying to help they're trying to be like you can be like you're in an opera hall this [TS]

01:25:04   and it's like just start from the basics save everything or studying under sail name that interface sucks [TS]

01:25:09   but still better than what you have now and then work your way up from there. [TS]

01:25:13   You know what you're describing it almost sounds like you want the apple approach to the receiver [TS]

01:25:21   and please don't email me because I haven't thought this through because I didn't do any research Libya new category it [TS]

01:25:28   would be a new category though [TS]

01:25:29   and I'd to be honest I don't think it's really in Apple's interest to do the sort of thing but. [TS]

01:25:33   But maybe we need like a nasty you know a bunch of X. Apple people or just smart people doesn't have to be X. [TS]

01:25:40   Apple to come in and say you know what here's a receiver done right and we will we will be an omnivore [TS]

01:25:46   and consume all these different inputs and give you one or perhaps more than one [TS]

01:25:52   and for whatever reason output that makes sense. [TS]

01:25:55   Well the they would NEVER provide what I'm asking for which is let me change every single feature. [TS]

01:26:00   I mean save them as a set because that's a terrible interface for most people [TS]

01:26:03   but I like that they would never do that they would just say oh we've decided all the settings for you [TS]

01:26:08   and you don't have to change them which is fine for what you want but my big complaint is they give you the settings [TS]

01:26:13   but then they're like some of them are global some of them are semi local Some of them are local only and [TS]

01:26:18   when you save a preset bike you're saving some weird subset of that and it's just terrible. [TS]

01:26:24   So when you're making your own you need to see them like that. [TS]

01:26:28   That's what I keep thinking about it like it's going to be I would be OK Well no no I'd like in terms of it's find [TS]

01:26:35   people Bennett's offer like we're also used to you know car makers and everyone is not going to solve [TS]

01:26:39   or an interface is ugly and they look like the silk like M S Das or they used to be like you're excited [TS]

01:26:43   when they've had onscreen control the U.C.S.B. [TS]

01:26:45   Buttons and everything but it's like Isn't it easier to do it the dumb way. [TS]

01:26:49   Like it's almost it's almost like they are [TS]

01:26:50   and it's the worst products through software like the easier to implement solution is still insanely unfriendly [TS]

01:27:01   but it's still so much better than what they're offering because this is no way any regular person is going to [TS]

01:27:06   understand the even with the giant table of valid Commission's input output. [TS]

01:27:10   They don't explain like what settings are linked to each other which setting can be changed independently [TS]

01:27:15   and which like you have to send in the source code for like to figure out like when I change this [TS]

01:27:20   and save a cent of the setting [TS]

01:27:22   but I change to a different setting which settings change wrenching change in which setting says same [TS]

01:27:26   and it doesn't depend on what the settings are and what things are turned on of the timer like. [TS]

01:27:31   Seems like the stupidest thing you possibly think of would be better than what we have now [TS]

01:27:36   and then working your way up and [TS]

01:27:39   when I think we like nester Apple like Nest is trying to not have you the nest thing is like all people know how to do [TS]

01:27:44   is turn the dial hotter when they're hot. [TS]

01:27:46   When they're cold and cold or when they're hot [TS]

01:27:48   and that's all we should expect them do will do the right thing which is a noble goal and it's good [TS]

01:27:51   but I don't want that on my receiver I just at the bare minimum I want let me you have a million settings. [TS]

01:27:57   Some of them are about some of them. Some combinations of. [TS]

01:28:00   Now some are trying to make everything about as possible I don't want to hear him put on H.D.M.I. [TS]

01:28:04   One you can only output over a she my three Y. Y. [TS]

01:28:07   All the hardware reason I'm sure there is [TS]

01:28:09   but like my ideal device would be a the most complete metrics possible for inputs and outputs. [TS]

01:28:15   Put whatever chips in there you have to do it every option configurable and just let me save all those options off. [TS]

01:28:21   Then you'd spend three days setting it up make all your presets [TS]

01:28:25   and you'd be done now is like always a mystery of like which settings about the Change menu with a changing this thing. [TS]

01:28:32   I'm I'm really glad that so far I have made decisions [TS]

01:28:36   and I've I've kind of accidentally fallen into limitations that prevented me from ever actually needing a receiver [TS]

01:28:44   and I've intentionally kept it that way because I have many of the same concerns that you did before getting one of [TS]

01:28:51   trying to avoid this world of complexity and [TS]

01:28:54   and I think the result of getting one has confirmed that those concerns were valid aren't dead. [TS]

01:29:01   And you know like it sucks that T.V. [TS]

01:29:03   Don't have more inputs [TS]

01:29:04   and the reason tv's are more inputs is because I guess I assume because most people who would fill all the inputs on [TS]

01:29:12   the T.V. [TS]

01:29:12   and Need more probably also have a receiver because it's like the thing to get to advance your set up to the next level. [TS]

01:29:18   But to not have that device would be so much better and so many other ways like. [TS]

01:29:25   And I'm one of those weirdos like I don't even have surround sound and I'm very very happy with stereo sound. [TS]

01:29:31   I'm like I had for a while in college I got the speaker set off of the bay that was a pretty suspicious. [TS]

01:29:38   Sounds like it fell off a truck. [TS]

01:29:40   I really like thinking back on it on the way to minute [TS]

01:29:45   but anyway so I had this like integrated powered speaker set from Sony that like just one of the speakers contained all [TS]

01:29:52   the amplification for the other ones and it was a five point one set [TS]

01:29:56   and for the first couple years a colleague actually brought all four. [TS]

01:30:00   Point one speakers with me and sucked in is a pain and I had all these wires everywhere [TS]

01:30:05   and I just eventually stop burning the center on the rears and just brought the left and the right [TS]

01:30:09   and just put it in story mode and left it there [TS]

01:30:12   and I realize that once I didn't have surround sound I didn't miss it at all like it was so unimportant to me for for [TS]

01:30:19   what I actually use and when I actually cared about it didn't matter one bit that I didn't have surround I had left [TS]

01:30:24   and right and so I was able to keep the set of simpler the whole time [TS]

01:30:28   and ever since then I've kept kept her very simple [TS]

01:30:31   and just have never had surround sound again because it just turned out to be this given that I don't actually care [TS]

01:30:35   about. [TS]

01:30:36   So in the same way I wonder like could you John like could you give up any of these inputs [TS]

01:30:42   or could you find some of the solution to remove your need for this receiver. [TS]

01:30:47   Well I was in the same camp as you for the longest time [TS]

01:30:49   but I care less about sound that I do about picture that's why I have a super expensive relative the one [TS]

01:30:53   and all the oh by super expensive T.V. [TS]

01:30:56   and You know no speakers at all for the longest time [TS]

01:30:58   and I love having all the inputs on my television because it did make it simple enough for anybody in my family to use [TS]

01:31:03   all my devices were connected. [TS]

01:31:05   They're all labeled you could pick any of my game consoles by name and switch to the input [TS]

01:31:09   and you can you know it was straight forward there were three boxes you had to coordinate [TS]

01:31:14   but once the tv's came with your inputs I think well that ship has sailed [TS]

01:31:18   and so if I have to get a receiver anyway now is the time [TS]

01:31:21   and this is basically the first you know surround you know five point one system that I have now diving into that [TS]

01:31:26   previously I had an old analog receiver on there but I only had two speakers a couple kind like you [TS]

01:31:31   and I would almost never use them because they were terrible speakers so I bought the cheapest possible [TS]

01:31:36   and the smallest possible five point one speakers because my room is not set up for a five point one is really hard to [TS]

01:31:40   find a place to put the speaker there then but you know I did the research [TS]

01:31:44   and I found one of the best cheap flights on once and you can get [TS]

01:31:47   and I don't think I would ever use it which is why I figured I'm going to get the thing about to get the speakers [TS]

01:31:51   anyway but I don't want to spend less money while they'll be off all the time I assume just like my old speakers [TS]

01:31:56   and that's why I wanted a receiver that I could change the inputs on without turning. [TS]

01:32:00   Not [TS]

01:32:00   and Canada works great like you can you know I can I can change inputs without having to turn the big thing on it all [TS]

01:32:05   lights up and you know sort of like the features that I pick for work great [TS]

01:32:09   but I find myself now to my own surprise watching almost all of my television in five point one because pretty much [TS]

01:32:15   every perm I want is five point tradition activists five point one Netflix stream so I pull on Apple T.V. [TS]

01:32:20   Five on movies that you know of course Blu rays and stuff like that. [TS]

01:32:23   They all put out five point one and my speakers again are crappy but the speakers [TS]

01:32:28   and flat panel televisions are super crappy So just having like a reasonable base [TS]

01:32:33   and a center channel those are the two big Forget about surround like very few things actually use the back channels [TS]

01:32:38   that much anyway but just having a real low in sound which you can get from flat panel speakers insides to the T.V. [TS]

01:32:44   and A center channel so the dialogue can be understandable [TS]

01:32:48   and loud enough without like you know blasting a lot of like kids I am a convert to watching even on terrible five on [TS]

01:32:55   one speakers watching television [TS]

01:32:57   and movies like that versus Washington the other thing so that's that's kind of been like the big surprise for me that [TS]

01:33:04   even though I am so much more visually oriented than auditoria Leroy on ever be oriented I find myself using the [TS]

01:33:12   surround a lot more than I could I guess it goes a long way you know the fact that because I got guest they're terrible [TS]

01:33:16   in the grand scheme of things [TS]

01:33:17   but they're way better than like that crappy stereo speakers I had like there's a couple hundred I've spent a couple [TS]

01:33:22   hundred bucks on speakers [TS]

01:33:23   but basically pretty much the same price as the receiver itself on speakers which anyone who knows any of our you would [TS]

01:33:28   say No I actually just spend way more money on speakers than you should on the receiver because they're much more [TS]

01:33:33   important but you know again and care. [TS]

01:33:35   So it worked out well for me I'm very happy with the receiver I got [TS]

01:33:38   and very glad I didn't buy the Sony receiver that I was looking at that as the forty page nightmare threat of the Sony [TS]

01:33:44   support forms with people having problems. [TS]

01:33:46   A research pays off you know it's funny I'm in a similar boat so Marco I used Well I still have a five point one set up [TS]

01:33:54   but I only have the subwoofer in the center in the left and right speakers. [TS]

01:34:00   On rare installed right now [TS]

01:34:02   and that's mostly a laziness because I didn't have a really good way to wire up the rear speakers without drilling [TS]

01:34:08   through the floor drilling to the ceiling and I just didn't want to deal with any of that and such never did. [TS]

01:34:13   We've been in the house since two thousand and eight started on it [TS]

01:34:15   and there are times there are absolutely times that I miss it without question [TS]

01:34:19   but just having proper non built into the T.V. Speakers and a subwoofer makes a world of difference. [TS]

01:34:28   And even just having that is enough to keep me happy [TS]

01:34:32   and here I am I wish I had the rear speakers are time to watch a movie that that is designed to be particularly [TS]

01:34:39   immersive don't it. [TS]

01:34:41   Movies aren't in general and I can think of a great example [TS]

01:34:43   but you know a movie that clearly you you want to be in the middle of an out of the action [TS]

01:34:47   and all miss those rear speakers but generally speaking I'm fine I'm perfectly happy with just the left right [TS]

01:34:54   and I do have center but you know left right and sub the I think centers even over rated like so. [TS]

01:34:59   So my sort of now is I just have these pair of paradigm out of bookshelf speakers which is a really nice book just [TS]

01:35:06   because but just left and right [TS]

01:35:07   and it's like this is it this is a good way to buy speakers it is the the absolute cheapest model from a really good [TS]

01:35:14   specialty speaker company and so they were like three hundred bucks for the pair or something like that. [TS]

01:35:20   And and so I have those speakers powered by this little tiny new force I think it's called the U. DAC or isn't it. [TS]

01:35:33   It's one of it's some kind of little like new force ant thing that is very buggy and horrible but Powers them [TS]

01:35:42   and it's like the size of like two alkaloids tin So it's a little tight in the power speakers [TS]

01:35:46   and so all I have is left and right [TS]

01:35:49   and there's little tiny thing power in them that has a little tiny remote even smaller than the Apple T.V. [TS]

01:35:54   Remote and it's fantastic it's great like the difference between. T.V. [TS]

01:36:00   Speakers and these lesson write with no centers just different between T.V. [TS]

01:36:03   Speakers [TS]

01:36:04   and Means is just that you know what John John I think this I think is an address you need just from how to center [TS]

01:36:09   shall like you're able to hear what's going on the T.V. [TS]

01:36:14   Better at lower volumes because the speakers are larger They're directed more at you. [TS]

01:36:19   They're better quality and so you can understand things a lot better without having to crank it up [TS]

01:36:24   but it's not it's not the speaker quality it's the mix like [TS]

01:36:27   when they mix five point one they put out they put the dialogue mostly in the center [TS]

01:36:31   and louder on the center channel is actual separation a five point one [TS]

01:36:34   and a good five point one mix with so you can you need the center channel speaker because they're not going to send the [TS]

01:36:38   signal to the stereo [TS]

01:36:39   and in fact the more a signal leans toward that the less you can hear the dialogue because there's almost no dialogue [TS]

01:36:45   in the left and right almost all dialogue is in the center. That's only if your receiver is terrible. [TS]

01:36:51   Every signal like almost everything Blu rays D.V.D.'s almost everything has a stereo mix [TS]

01:36:57   and things things that only have a five point one mix will be down next. [TS]

01:37:02   I know but I don't want them to know their hearts this around modes that will take it take the stereo signal [TS]

01:37:07   and send it out to the centers and saw in like a or just to the stereo mix [TS]

01:37:10   but I want I want to trust the person who did the five point one mix to properly makes it between left right [TS]

01:37:16   and center I find them because I've I've done it the other way yes you can do I can just you know I can just power on [TS]

01:37:20   the left and right speakers and put on a stereo mix [TS]

01:37:24   and compared to what it's like with the five point one of the center channel [TS]

01:37:26   and I think I think I spend more time on the five point one mixes [TS]

01:37:29   and I think I find them you know better than than the stereo mixes. [TS]

01:37:35   Well regardless so I have in my opinion a very very close approximation to the value of a full system a full five point [TS]

01:37:42   one But which of these two relatively small bookshelf speakers that are each about eighty two inches taller than the [TS]

01:37:49   new MacPro and about twice the deep and serious about the no that's because I hate external subs. [TS]

01:37:56   I absolutely hate subwoofers. I've never had it. [TS]

01:38:00   One system that I cared about for good reason because I don't like the way they sound. [TS]

01:38:04   I don't like the imprecise kind of the source of where it's coming from you know wherever that's you tucked it behind [TS]

01:38:11   the T.V. or Whatever it doesn't it never sounds right. [TS]

01:38:14   I like speakers that are big enough to do their own sub offering so these you know bookshelf speakers for T.V. [TS]

01:38:20   Is a perfectly fine [TS]

01:38:20   and for low volume audio it's perfectly fine to if I if I want to get a lot more volume I would go with force [TS]

01:38:27   and like you know the full floor height speakers. [TS]

01:38:29   I really really hate actual subwoofer they didn't they do not sound good they never sounded good. [TS]

01:38:34   Well there are always there is configured terribly people houses like if you've only heard them in stores [TS]

01:38:40   and people thousands there are just massively miscalibrated over Boston just super terrible I hate them because they're [TS]

01:38:45   gigantic I mean there's no getting around the fact you know you have you have this gigantic thing [TS]

01:38:48   but other than that like [TS]

01:38:50   when correctly calibrated in most of the good receivers these days have some usually pretty crappy were way better than [TS]

01:38:56   nothing calibration or you can just put a you know a directional mike where your head would be [TS]

01:39:01   and it just runs test tones that adjust the levels [TS]

01:39:04   and I was amazed at how how low level it put the sub like this guy was like is a sub working at all. [TS]

01:39:09   I didn't you didn't hear that annoying kind of where is that rumbly think coming from the propre level for subs [TS]

01:39:16   according to the judgment thing [TS]

01:39:17   and I tell you live now is basically like I can hear it at all it just sounds like my speakers have more bass [TS]

01:39:24   and in the few movies that really just you know thunder that out with an explosion it works well there. [TS]

01:39:29   But otherwise you should basically not hear it just make you know my crappy tiny even smaller than bookshelf speakers [TS]

01:39:34   feel like oh they actually have low end it's a miracle of science but really it's like that. [TS]

01:39:39   That's like you're not even sure and turned on but this we'll see if you need that little of it [TS]

01:39:45   and then I think you know if you know your speakers are smart that's that's a different story [TS]

01:39:49   but like you know if if I'm going to have bookshelf speakers even compact bookshelf speakers I think that's big enough [TS]

01:39:55   you know the you know the woofers on them are big enough to provide How big is the. [TS]

01:40:00   How big is the biggest cone or whatever you use including the rubber gasket around it's five inches across. [TS]

01:40:12   Yeah that's probably I mean five or six inches is probably quite a bit my speakers are super tight [TS]

01:40:16   and I was one of my requirements right speakers is because you've seen the room that they're in like I have no place to [TS]

01:40:19   put speakers on like well he's just they could kind of be really small so I can tuck them in you know they get a lot of [TS]

01:40:25   the pictures on my mantle. [TS]

01:40:26   One of the surround speakers is like there amongst the pictures so it has to be pretty much the height of a picture [TS]

01:40:31   and conspicuous as possible you know. So I defined it is about those otherwise it would just be you know nothing. [TS]

01:40:38   My biggest con is like three NEVER four inches and they're you know I also I greatly you know as much as I can alter [TS]

01:40:45   and of course you know the influence of my wife [TS]

01:40:47   and I want to keep the house reasonably looking is is a different impact as well [TS]

01:40:51   but certainly as I get older I value it more and more having fewer smaller things you know [TS]

01:40:57   and less complexity in the set up like. [TS]

01:40:59   That's another reason why I don't want to receive it like just and why I don't want five point one [TS]

01:41:03   or seven point one surround like I'm so happy just having a decent left right speakers. If the T.V. [TS]

01:41:09   Could power them that would be one more thing that I could remove [TS]

01:41:11   but it can't so a well I just I'm very happy just keeping things as simple as I possibly can and then you [TS]

01:41:18   and I had a kid. [TS]

01:41:21   Well hey that now there's less for him to wreck or pull down or you know pull the wires out of or eat or anything else. [TS]

01:41:26   So it's all good. [TS]

01:41:29   They saw two or three sponsors this week transporter King and Squarespace and we will see you next week. [TS]

01:41:36   The show is over accidental. And you are sitting on the current system that can live and so I went on this trip. [TS]

01:42:41   Did you survive it. I did I think the trip was my my my friend from my friend from high school is getting married. [TS]

01:42:49   I'm the best man and for his bachelor party he want to do the ski trip in Seattle [TS]

01:42:54   and one of the things that we we also had the idea you know what let's try a leg in because we we were the two that [TS]

01:43:00   always start all the land games back in high school and we had games of total annihilation and then later on me [TS]

01:43:07   and more recent games mostly total annihilation. [TS]

01:43:09   So we thought you know we we would have like Apple laptops [TS]

01:43:12   and if you if you the other guys were coming on the trip also were part of this group [TS]

01:43:16   and also had laptop so let's let's just try to set up you know basic when game. [TS]

01:43:21   OK You would think in this day [TS]

01:43:24   and age this would be easy that we're trying to run a game that came out in one thousand nine hundred six. [TS]

01:43:30   How hard could apartment twenty seven to me. How hard could it possibly be to run this game in twenty fourteen. [TS]

01:43:37   And so I first tried a few things I tried like you know what would be easiest is if I can get it running in virtual box [TS]

01:43:44   because virtual boxes free and then I can just copy the V.M. [TS]

01:43:47   Between anyone's computer that needs it and just launch it [TS]

01:43:50   and we could be guaranteed to have the same set up in everyone's computer isn't just copying a V.M. [TS]

01:43:54   That would be the best. [TS]

01:43:55   Well first of all what version of Windows do you run well if you want to pirate from or do you want. [TS]

01:44:00   Like you know you know how do you deal with copying if it's activation all this crap then I settled on I was going to [TS]

01:44:06   get the version of Windows eight point one that Microsoft is offering for a developer preview right now for free [TS]

01:44:11   because that you can download it there's no activation and it only runs for ninety days [TS]

01:44:14   but that's all we needed to meet we needed to run for so fine right. [TS]

01:44:18   So I get all that and try installing it in a virtual box and the game just does not run right. [TS]

01:44:27   Virtual Box You know we want to play three games total annihilation movies commander [TS]

01:44:32   and if possible Supreme Commander which is much newer and higher higher needs. [TS]

01:44:37   So we want to run those three games and you know virtual box just doesn't or doesn't run right. [TS]

01:44:43   We tried parallels I've heard of before I got there. [TS]

01:44:47   Parallels are supposedly the best one of these things of gaming disaster by the way. [TS]

01:44:52   Really annoying like parallel that like the crap installs that asking you is really of noxious really. [TS]

01:44:58   Yeah I want to recommend a V.M. [TS]

01:44:59   Ware but they can see parallels that are the games they only say because well I'll try that next year. [TS]

01:45:05   There was always my choice because it was always the much more professionally made of the two [TS]

01:45:11   and you could feel it like in in all the different variants and just seemed like the more adult version. [TS]

01:45:17   So I try to V.M. [TS]

01:45:18   Ware also didn't work right for these games [TS]

01:45:20   but OK well I guess I can try boot camp so I tried to camp Everything works great now I get everything set up [TS]

01:45:28   and I in order to try to mitigate having to mess with computers for hours on exam knew we wouldn't have time [TS]

01:45:35   or motivation to do that on a ski trip where we you know we would get home from a ski resort get home from dinner [TS]

01:45:40   and just want to like try to start a game in ten minutes [TS]

01:45:43   and play you know if it takes more than ten minutes to set up once where there were no was no want to do it so let's [TS]

01:45:49   make it simple so that our boot camp I know that even the most recent version of Windows bootcamp works great [TS]

01:45:56   and I bought the steam versions of these two games. [TS]

01:46:00   Because people like Moon base [TS]

01:46:01   and sub come about the steam versions so they were there so chiefly the social games a total of eleven dollars to buy [TS]

01:46:07   both of them so I said All right so he mailed everyone I said are here for you to do if you have a P.C. [TS]

01:46:12   Laptop bring it install the steam versions of these two games. Here's the links. [TS]

01:46:16   Able to see only eleven dollars please install them now before you get here that way when you get here. [TS]

01:46:22   Everyone has the same version of the game ever has the same games everyone has the same maps everything's updated. [TS]

01:46:28   No one has to deal with cds or CD checks or CD cracks [TS]

01:46:31   or any of that crap to deal with trying to get my games going we were teenagers. So this should work perfectly. [TS]

01:46:37   So I get there. One guy doesn't have a dimple camp it's only in V.M. Ware which doesn't work and can't boot it. [TS]

01:46:47   One guy had installed one of the games the other game [TS]

01:46:49   and hasn't launched even while serving us to update on this like satellite connection in the woods that we have the [TS]

01:46:54   disc. [TS]

01:46:55   We spend probably a good forty five minutes trying to get one game started of the simple as possible thing passing [TS]

01:47:02   U.S.B. [TS]

01:47:03   Keys back and forth copying all this crap between the two computers having steam launch and failed [TS]

01:47:07   and not going to the Internet in the not [TS]

01:47:09   and then want to update itself not have the updates of course of course nobody had actually done what I said [TS]

01:47:13   or they didn't half of it or they don't you know a half assed job of the thing they didn't say [TS]

01:47:17   and finally we get the games both launched both running and can't see each other over the network. [TS]

01:47:24   Emmett is like Screw it. [TS]

01:47:25   Let's get some bourbon and that then I became a bourbon one instead of a video gaming night [TS]

01:47:30   and this is like I tell this here because this is the this is still like the state of trying to get a land so I mean in [TS]

01:47:42   the end of the day though your evening became better because it involved bourbon instead of old P.C. [TS]

01:47:49   Games to be fair it probably would have ended in Bourbon regardless but at least that way even after the games [TS]

01:47:56   or maybe during you know halfway through the games. Yeah. [TS]

01:48:00   They should have brought in tennis sixty four you could hook up the T.V. [TS]

01:48:02   and Play God [TS]

01:48:02   and I know a man I want to work that actually does that we'll be able to get a lot of that too that we're actually [TS]

01:48:08   living better the whole time I was thinking like of course we all had to be like the difficult nerds [TS]

01:48:13   and like these weird P.C. R.T.S. Games like why couldn't we all just like an X.-Box game and be so much easier. [TS]

01:48:19   No no we had we had to be difficult for a little while anyway. [TS]

01:48:22   Pretty soon you're not going to plug in Tennessee or into the back of a T.V. [TS]

01:48:25   Because the you know nothing we have composite parts but in some crappy hotel was probably there for a while. [TS]

01:48:31   You probably can get some sort of like cheap a converter box to have has H.D.M.I. [TS]

01:48:36   Out on it you know that's more thing you got to bring like you know a couple laptops take up less space in a bag than [TS]

01:48:42   in sixty four [TS]

01:48:42   and a few controllers I know that in their divorce like you control that that's that's the flaw in your plan which [TS]

01:48:47   we're relying on other people to successfully do something you like well I've done the hard work [TS]

01:48:51   and you know what you guys need to do or you know right now is execute on the simple plan [TS]

01:48:54   and that was you know that's the downfall of like here if you want to work you should have been like calling each [TS]

01:48:59   person on the phone a week before three days before a day and say hey I don't want to set up. [TS]

01:49:04   Have you launched a ham not running in a V.M. Are you I know you might be doing that. [TS]

01:49:08   Boot camp means you reboot the whole computer [TS]

01:49:10   and you just say Windows No it's not going to you know like you have to like nag them to death until you confirm [TS]

01:49:15   and then I do test games very good you know to make sure you can see each other than that we're going to have different [TS]

01:49:19   theme ideas in your blog. [TS]

01:49:22   You're connecting this team for the first time from this computer please grant your password Oh I don't know what it is [TS]

01:49:26   like there's so many there's so many places you can go wrong it does not surprise me that you were unsuccessful. [TS]

01:49:31   Well and another idea I had was to use rent like four laptops before I got there [TS]

01:49:36   and because you can rent labs from some from some places including tech serve here in the cities [TS]

01:49:39   and like you can just rent a laptop like let me just configure them before even go [TS]

01:49:42   and bring my own bring a stack of four like thirteen inch map with pros pre-configured to work exactly the way I want [TS]

01:49:49   to but that would've cost a thousand dollars [TS]

01:49:52   and didn't I thought you know everyone will have laptops in a way that would be wasteful. [TS]

01:49:57   But you know let's see let's see what we can do I'm sure. [TS]

01:50:00   It's so easy to install any version of Windows install the steam versions of these games [TS]

01:50:04   and bring your computer that's it. [TS]

01:50:06   No that's not at the thought that this is the good version like Steam is just you know is that the mirror the modern [TS]

01:50:12   miracle of P.C. Gaming is that it makes it so much easier you know right. [TS]

01:50:17   No serial number of none of that crap ever of the same version it's always updated like come on. [TS]

01:50:21   Nope can't even do that. [TS]

01:50:23   Sounds like fun although you know I'm a little disappointed that you didn't try to bring all these computers through [TS]

01:50:29   neither gate checked or through baggage claim or whatever because there's no reason why that should be a problem [TS]

01:50:36   but there would have been a humongous problem with that. Oh yeah like you know why does one person need four laptops. [TS]

01:50:42   Clearly you're trying to hack the N.S.A. [TS]

01:50:45   but What else could you be using for laptops for all you know what I was gonna buy the pano thing there's not much to [TS]

01:50:52   say about pano I wrote a thing about it a few months ago into it again tonight I think. [TS]

01:50:58   But basically it lead to an article by my favorite writers Dan Rather of Dan's data [TS]

01:51:04   and he wrote this big thing basically debunking the whole collecting a whole bunch of debunked this in one place [TS]

01:51:10   debunking the whole thing about how you know it it turns out you can't hear the difference between you know over forty [TS]

01:51:17   four point one kilohertz files and over sixteen bit resolution [TS]

01:51:20   and you know all the all of the supposed benefits of this like high bit rate high you know high sample rate high high [TS]

01:51:28   density music. [TS]

01:51:30   I definitely music rather you know there is a real thing with remastering [TS]

01:51:35   and you know you have like the loudness war making music sound terrible the way it's released on CD and stuff [TS]

01:51:41   and then a lot of these a lot of these high definition releases that are like it you know one hundred to kill or hurt [TS]

01:51:47   or something like that twenty four bit thirty two bit flow whatever it is a lot of them will have a better more more [TS]

01:51:55   even less F.M. Radio like mastering so that they will sound better just because. [TS]

01:52:00   It's like they were mastered love better and they were you know crushed and compressed less in the dynamic range. [TS]

01:52:07   So there are lots of reasons why some of these things sound better [TS]

01:52:09   but none of them are the bit rate of the sample rate above a certain point and that point is pretty much CD quality. [TS]

01:52:18   And so you know these things like pot I mean a guy could talk forever about audio file stuff and I won't. [TS]

01:52:24   But let me quickly interrupt you for those who don't know. [TS]

01:52:27   Pano Pono pony cone the whatever it's called is this thing by Neil Young where it's supposed to be a high fidelity [TS]

01:52:37   portable music player and I'm assuming there's a store associated with that is that correct. [TS]

01:52:43   You know it's a it's basically trying to be like a high definition version of i Tunes So it has the device plus the [TS]

01:52:51   music store that goes along with a device [TS]

01:52:53   and this will you know this it's a whole new ecosystem that is I believe funded on Kickstarter shortly [TS]

01:53:00   or about to be fun to kick start or at least it will be put on Kickstarter. [TS]

01:53:04   Sure if it will succeed but it's already like funded like double funded like a one of a hundred grand [TS]

01:53:09   and they've got one point six pledged already. Yeah that's not good. [TS]

01:53:12   Well [TS]

01:53:12   but I think that is good I'm rooting for the ecosystem to become vibrant because that what it means is that we'll be [TS]

01:53:17   able to get like you know two fifty six kilohertz Lossie rips of all of their well mastered tracks [TS]

01:53:22   and part of the time. [TS]

01:53:25   Yeah I mean that's like you know this is one of those things where it would be nice for you know mastering engineers to [TS]

01:53:34   have like a market force to make things better. [TS]

01:53:36   Unfortunately I think they're already do I think you know the general drop in the Rev In the relevance of radio helps a [TS]

01:53:43   lot. I believe Apple's called mastered for i Tunes. [TS]

01:53:47   Yeah they're better but [TS]

01:53:48   but opening up an audio app it's still kind of like a wall of like it there then I am a great range as best we were [TS]

01:53:54   looking for the like you know from the loudest sort of quiet is that you just look at the wave form of the waveform [TS]

01:53:59   looks. [TS]

01:54:00   One big screen goal that's that that goes the full height of the thing all across that's that's your problem [TS]

01:54:05   and there are the massive Rogers ones are better in that regard [TS]

01:54:08   but they're nothing like if you look at like the levels on like vinyl [TS]

01:54:11   or whatever where there was the quiet sections were really little ripples [TS]

01:54:14   and then the loud sections just started to go close to touching the edges all I can to graft on a line where the next [TS]

01:54:21   you know amplitude over what I think I have faith in the mastering of these people are going to do with their crazy [TS]

01:54:27   high bit rates [TS]

01:54:28   and everything that that mastering will be more aggressive in terms of the manic range than even the master tried to [TS]

01:54:33   and so that's why actually I was serious I really do look forward to if I can get you know some of my favorite songs as [TS]

01:54:40   as a six kilobit rips of those last was crazy high bitrate ones that I'll be able to experience a song in a new way [TS]

01:54:49   with a much bigger dynamic range and even better than the Manson tried to write I mean [TS]

01:54:54   and that's that's all very valid [TS]

01:54:55   but like it's like you know it's not like the placebo effect is like well you can argue that it works [TS]

01:55:02   but it doesn't work for the reason people think it works. [TS]

01:55:04   It's like they've been the kind of thing like these these tracks might sound better [TS]

01:55:08   but it's not because of any of the technical things that they have on a platform it's entirely because of the input. [TS]

01:55:15   You know how the media has mastered going in like that that would be why they sound better. [TS]

01:55:19   You know if it turns out if you do [TS]

01:55:21   and there's a there's a number of sites that offer this like man I forget if I have them our complete Yeah this is [TS]

01:55:27   really cool if you go to M.P.'s three or not dot com This is this is hilarious. [TS]

01:55:32   So it lets you play to play basically automate an ab X. Test. [TS]

01:55:38   So an A B X test in brief and please people of science on the part of the from messing this up. And A B X test. [TS]

01:55:46   So Eve heard about a beat try try one thing and for another thing and see which one you think is better [TS]

01:55:51   and the problem with that is what the problem is that but it's easy to like hear things that aren't there [TS]

01:55:56   or perceive things that aren't there and you don't really know so a V.X. Test. [TS]

01:56:00   Is you have two unlabeled inputs or even label doesn't matter to inputs A and B. and Then you have this X. [TS]

01:56:07   and You say here's a here's B. Listen as much as you want. Here's X. He's a little as much as you want is X. A or B. [TS]

01:56:17   and So M P three or not this size is an example one of these things. So it says All right so you have you know A and B. [TS]

01:56:23   Like a is a high bit rate and B. Three B. Is a lower bit rate M P three. What is X. Is it the is it the three twenty K. [TS]

01:56:30   or The one twenty eight K. and P. Three. [TS]

01:56:32   And I tried I tried the site on my set up which I currently have [TS]

01:56:37   but many people would argue with the best headphones in the world. [TS]

01:56:40   I could not tell the difference between these two I have I failed. [TS]

01:56:44   I got it right about half the time which means that I'm failing. [TS]

01:56:47   You know that's that's you know random guessing so I could not tell the difference reliably on this site [TS]

01:56:54   and you know people there's always more things you can blame you can blame my lack of sophisticated years you can blame [TS]

01:57:01   some other part of my setup you can blame the fact that these are both M P three S. [TS]

01:57:04   and Neither one of them is a loss of file or whatever the case may be. [TS]

01:57:08   But it's one of the things like hearing the difference here is a larger psychological with a lot of these things [TS]

01:57:16   and if you add in a lot of the a lot of the possible upgrades and enhancements and fidelity [TS]

01:57:22   or hardware advance notice in the audio world a lot of them don't seem to be accessed including things like fancy [TS]

01:57:29   cables or even fancy apps a lot of this just does not hold up [TS]

01:57:34   and you know the reality is most people even even the audio files who own and buy [TS]

01:57:40   and talk about these things usually even they have a pretty hard time in a B.X. [TS]

01:57:44   Testing tell the difference between things like M P three bit rates fancy cables [TS]

01:57:48   and fancy amps for every three bit rates a lot of it depends on if the actual specific song they're playing to you [TS]

01:57:54   happens to hit one of the areas that M B three encoding is bad it's encoded like this pathological case. [TS]

01:58:00   It's like you know you get that M P three sizzle [TS]

01:58:02   but only for certain sounds with a certain cadence in a certain frequency so if you play some song that does not have [TS]

01:58:08   any of that noise in it you won't die. [TS]

01:58:09   That's what people are going to look at the artifacts like it's fine [TS]

01:58:12   when you know you're not running into one of these areas where the way the N.B.A. [TS]

01:58:15   Three cheats end up becoming visible [TS]

01:58:19   and so I could it's like you know just I don't even know the sort of like sort of middle of the road classical music [TS]

01:58:23   was sort of like nice tones and it's not like high frequency high pitched drumming [TS]

01:58:28   and cymbals where you might start to hail here a little bit those artifact the sizzles [TS]

01:58:32   but that's basically what I have better still if I was trying to listen for something of what I'd be listening for [TS]

01:58:36   those artifacts and I know those are in fact from the days of like you know ninety six kilobit [TS]

01:58:40   and all the rigs you know super overcompressed like those same artifacts like oh in this part of so I can totally hear [TS]

01:58:47   all this fuss keep cranking up the bit rate around one twenty eight pretty much almost all that fuzz goes away [TS]

01:58:52   but there's maybe a little bit left to fifty six. [TS]

01:58:55   I can't hear anything in three twenty Certainly I can hear any difference [TS]

01:58:58   but what I do hear definitely from you know as I have lots of copies of the same music bought on remastered on CD [TS]

01:59:04   and stuff like that in the original on CD and in the crappy original CD release I hear differences in the mix [TS]

01:59:09   and that's more important to me than the bit rate at this point. [TS]

01:59:13   Yeah I definitely notice older like I still live pretty much my entire music collection from whenever I start first [TS]

01:59:22   started amassing M P three S. [TS]

01:59:24   So ninety six something like that and the empty trees that were ripped way back then when our tools weren't as good. [TS]

01:59:33   Nobody knew what settings to use arguably nobody does today but certainly more do than ninety six. [TS]

01:59:39   I can absolutely hear compression artifacts particularly with symbols especially there I can I can hear a lot of [TS]

01:59:46   artifacts but compare that to anything ripped in the last five to ten years [TS]

01:59:51   and I agree with you that once you hit for me it's about one hundred to over one hundred two I don't think it makes a [TS]

01:59:57   difference I feel like one twenty eight maybe it's. But I feel like one twenty eight. [TS]

02:00:01   I can still hear the artifacts one ninety two is all I need now I'm happy. So titles. [TS]

02:00:07   Let's go to the ticker All right let's go to bed. [TS]

02:00:11   Well I will say that I am very close to releasing the Iowa seven update for fast text [TS]

02:00:17   and I really need to do it well in the next six months so I didn't overcast. [TS]

02:00:21   Can you put a foot a feat based Easter egg in there for me to figure something out [TS]

02:00:27   and if you don't beat overcast you should really feel ashamed because of the relative complexity of the that locations [TS]

02:00:32   is not damaged John don't you sell fast tech shortly. [TS]

02:00:35   No such I just set myself back a month you should be able to beat me pretty easily. [TS]

02:00:39   You know I've been working with a designer Jason Jacob's Ladder and he's been very good [TS]

02:00:44   and on a wildly unrelated note I've been playing with no J.S. What I really like it. I kind of feel dirty. [TS]

02:00:52   That's good man that you're actually doing something more recent than anything John [TS]

02:00:55   and I will probably ever do think about it I do know it's awful to seriously makes me hate javascript even more. [TS]

02:01:05   Web Developer united capital times I was kept at the fact of life. Sad sad fact of life. [TS]

02:01:10   Well yes [TS]

02:01:11   but doing javascript in the browsers in many it's a far cry I know it's not the browser writing real programs with [TS]

02:01:19   javascript which prevents the what in your web developer is doing at this point you're not just like those the way for [TS]

02:01:23   me to script the browser that age path long ago were writing real programs and jobs covenant and [TS]

02:01:27   when you had to write a real program in a language that's what makes you really hate it because you like it if I had to [TS]

02:01:33   speak your language this wouldn't be so stupid. [TS]

02:01:36   For a start it not a little balls and all the things that are like still kind of half built and still immature [TS]

02:01:41   or even just like every time I do that a distressing manipulations like you were so close you had all the features I [TS]

02:01:46   find access stupid. Of course a Perl programmer would complain and moan about string manipulation. [TS]

02:01:51   Anything I'll take a pic in a language P.H.P. Ruby said awk anything has better more time and more convenience. [TS]

02:02:00   String manipulation than javascript every time I got to do like you know string dot match [TS]

02:02:05   and then wrap the whole thing in parentheses [TS]

02:02:07   and sub script off the first one because it was the original strain going for some insane read like I just it's not [TS]

02:02:14   that it's not huffman code to use Perl parlance the most common things are not short and simple. [TS]

02:02:19   The most common things are just as stupid as the complicated things you are so bitter [TS]

02:02:24   and cheated in the old money with no notice [TS]

02:02:28   and now it is a fun way to have a trial that goes thing that's speaking of a nice note to look at what Ghost it's like [TS]

02:02:35   what he called that would change his blog to it I heard about it from him. [TS]

02:02:39   It's a way to run a blog and they have a hosted version that they charge an arm and a leg for but it's open source [TS]

02:02:44   and you can just download and run on your system [TS]

02:02:46   and it's just a node based blog engine it's like well that's exactly what I'm writing right now because you didn't [TS]

02:02:51   Marco didn't I didn't want to be left out dammit I did not make a blog an engineer made a way to produce the H.T.M.L. [TS]

02:02:57   Files that I are sent up to anyway. [TS]

02:03:01   But yeah I like and I said mine is not it's not a system at all but a ghost is [TS]

02:03:05   and if you're making one yourself download ghost and just look at the source because it's eminently understandable [TS]

02:03:12   and it's a neat little app like I don't like it particularly I wouldn't use it as a blogging engine [TS]

02:03:16   but seeing it's kind of the first like example because Open Source of like here you go here's the whole thing. [TS]

02:03:22   Run it yourself if you want and it's small enough you can understand it here but then that defeats the whole purpose. [TS]

02:03:28   But then I could just use Tumblr now. [TS]

02:03:30   No just look at it to get like ideas of how this structure things is like I thought it was a protest vote was ample of [TS]

02:03:36   how do you write a modern inode based web application without including umpteen billion for a mark so they do install a [TS]

02:03:44   lot of other modules but it was pretty straightforward when you have to consider that. [TS]

02:03:49   I'm way too self obsessed to do anything smart like that. [TS]

02:03:54   Plus I'm way too bad it note and I'm sure if I looked at this which I will and I would look at this code and be like. [TS]

02:04:00   I don't know what the hell's going on now. You will find it completely understandable. [TS]

02:04:04   Like everything is extremely straightforward and I think fair enough. [TS]

02:04:08   Well my blogging engine which is barely an engine that basically just regurgitates markdown and as a couple [TS]

02:04:13   and builds an R.S.S. Feed and does a couple other very small things. It is sitting at three hundred nine lines of code. [TS]

02:04:19   Him By that I mean there's three hundred nine lines in this file some of which are comments a lot of which are [TS]

02:04:24   whitespace etc So there's nothing much to it. [TS]

02:04:28   I'm really enjoying it for basic stuff I would want to do it for you I would want to use note for anything serious [TS]

02:04:34   or complex but the basic stuff is pretty nice. [TS]

02:04:37   No if it were rails you could build the entire blogging system in one line of code. [TS]

02:04:41   I've never done rails actually [TS]

02:04:42   nor Ruby ever I've done I've dabbled with Python I've done like Basic Basic Basic Python and basic basic basic P.H.P. [TS]

02:04:49   Which is to say I've never done object oriented neither. [TS]

02:04:54   And go to school in Java scripting so bad makes you think about things differently which isn't much time to me [TS]

02:05:01   and I'm glad you agree. Jerks. [TS]