The Accidental Tech Podcast

64: It Never Died Because It Never Lived


00:00:00   When someone says something funny first and that we are ignorant of most or all get right on that. [TS]

00:00:06   Those another case where we got a bunch of feedback that I thought talk about something we had covered the previous [TS]

00:00:12   show but apparently we did not do a good enough job so if we don't get the job done the first time we'll go back [TS]

00:00:16   and try again. [TS]

00:00:18   This was about three games and the topic came up when both of you had said that you would play video games [TS]

00:00:25   when you're younger and didn't play them as much now we talked about why that might be [TS]

00:00:28   and I talked about the average age of a gamer and I brought stats from the USA I think on the last show [TS]

00:00:33   and talk all about this and couple people wrote in to talk about the difference between people who play video games [TS]

00:00:41   and people who are self identified to gamers. [TS]

00:00:44   Some people wrote in to say oh I just play a couple hours games now and then I certainly wouldn't call myself a gamer. [TS]

00:00:49   One of the best ones as I was Joe Lyon who wrote in to say a section from what he wrote having put in hundreds [TS]

00:00:55   or thousands of hours playing games over the past couple of years I by no means consider myself a gamer. [TS]

00:01:01   Tell him in a lot of people in the argument terms a time my God just play once in while not a big deal [TS]

00:01:06   but this guy plays games all the time and it only counts hundreds [TS]

00:01:10   or thousands of hours like him playing during the commute just obsessively playing games finishing games or whatever [TS]

00:01:15   but does not consider himself a gamer and the discussion was not about what I would call a self identified game [TS]

00:01:22   or it was just about the idea that you know the market that most people you know like you thought it was a common thing [TS]

00:01:28   that like you play games when you're younger and you didn't play them anymore as an adult. [TS]

00:01:32   Self identify gamer is a whole other ball of wax human as many people point out including Joe line like I watch T.V. [TS]

00:01:38   All the time. Do I identify as a television watcher. [TS]

00:01:42   No it's not it's not like it's not the games you play is not how long you play them. [TS]

00:01:47   Identity is totally up to the person I would call myself a self identified what I would call myself a gamer Cerise [TS]

00:01:53   and Harley outside. [TS]

00:01:55   How many games I play how long I played and I guarantee I play games that last for less amount of clock time. [TS]

00:02:00   Then then almost anybody else who considers themselves a gamer so that's more of an identity in a cultural type thing [TS]

00:02:06   and has nothing to do with that [TS]

00:02:07   and it certainly has nothing to do with what we were discussing which was Is it common for people to play a lot of [TS]

00:02:12   games and young and stop when they're older [TS]

00:02:13   and by going through the stats on gamers they discover that that's not the case that in fact there was [TS]

00:02:21   but one of the stats we've all of us like twice as many adult women play games as males under eighteen [TS]

00:02:27   and the average average gamer is like our age so it's very clear that the majority of the people who are playing games [TS]

00:02:33   today did not stop playing games when I got older. [TS]

00:02:37   Up on a second I've got to go and say good night to one of my children [TS]

00:02:41   but I always back you can you can you can just vamp for a sec and make a nice cut point and I'll add something in [TS]

00:02:48   but they have the other back and I will know you're never going to be able to make a reasonable out of this [TS]

00:03:00   but tough like those I think who are left. [TS]

00:03:02   I believe you finish that follow up bit so we're moving on to other follow up. [TS]

00:03:07   Yeah I guess that's all I had to have a video games a bit. [TS]

00:03:09   Basically that the thing the message that we failed to get across was that the entire discussion was not about self [TS]

00:03:14   identify gamers [TS]

00:03:15   and I was not part of this feedback from July into that we needed to define the terms better if we did a bad job [TS]

00:03:21   or that I'm sorry [TS]

00:03:21   but that's we were not talking about stuff that we're just talking about the phenomenon is common for people to play [TS]

00:03:26   games and then stop playing them [TS]

00:03:28   when they're older regardless of during any of those times were they considered self-evident of high gamers [TS]

00:03:33   and like I said I don't think that tag has anything to do with any criteria you might bring up that you could measure [TS]

00:03:39   like how long you play what types of games you play how obsessed you are of the games I mean like that's more [TS]

00:03:43   and you know you choose to identify yourself as you choose. [TS]

00:03:46   If that's some part of your identity again with television I don't mind. [TS]

00:03:50   Part of my den meis not that I watch television but part of my identity is that I play games. [TS]

00:03:54   Why because that's what I choose to do and it's up to each individual person [TS]

00:03:57   but that's not what we're talking about right. [TS]

00:04:00   So we also got a lot of feedback about our discussion what was really my source here because this discussion about [TS]

00:04:07   comics ology and in app purchase an apple in who's at fault who's on first What's on second I was on third [TS]

00:04:14   and a lot of people wrote in to compare your arguments John to the arguments [TS]

00:04:20   and I hope I get this I think it was right against Net Neutrality So this whole discussion about fast lean on the [TS]

00:04:27   Internet [TS]

00:04:27   and oh if Netflix is pumping a crud loaded data across Comcast pipes then you know what Netflix should probably have a [TS]

00:04:35   discount or maybe even pay more depending on who you ask and so can you address how this is either the same [TS]

00:04:41   or different to net neutrality. [TS]

00:04:43   It doesn't really matter whether the people who are sending the feedback were for against net neutrality [TS]

00:04:47   and in fact I think what they want wanted to say was that all those people who said that feedback I would guess the [TS]

00:04:53   real debate they want to have is about net neutrality because regardless of which side they are on the Apple thing what [TS]

00:05:00   they're trying to say is this apple situation is similar to net neutrality [TS]

00:05:04   and if you don't have the same opinion about both situations you're being inconsistent therefore you're wrong about one [TS]

00:05:08   of those two things [TS]

00:05:08   and it doesn't really matter if I think you're wrong about Apple comics ology they were wrong about an editor Audi [TS]

00:05:13   or whatever they just want to see some consistency and I didn't like a lot of this is over Twitter [TS]

00:05:17   and I have time to send back tweets that explain this whole big long thing. [TS]

00:05:21   Although I tried to a couple times on Twitter before I realized it was pointless [TS]

00:05:24   and for e-mails if they could we would address it on the show because like one or two [TS]

00:05:28   or three sponsors came in you know like no big deal and wanted to trade it [TS]

00:05:31   but it was super common that everybody was like you're going to give. [TS]

00:05:35   You're saying that Apple should cut a deal with Amazon [TS]

00:05:40   and how is that any different than the iris P's cutting a deal with Netflix or Amazon or anything like that [TS]

00:05:47   and I think it's different in a couple of ways. [TS]

00:05:50   Some very important some less important or you can decide which ones you find more convincing. [TS]

00:05:55   The biggest and most important difference and what I tried to express and what are good I thought oh here's this. [TS]

00:06:00   Think way to express this is Apple doesn't sell access to the Internet. That was not convincing to anybody. [TS]

00:06:06   There's like so. So what what's different about the Internet and Apple selling access to its customers. [TS]

00:06:12   Give us a thirty percent cut we let you use our payment system and get access to our customers [TS]

00:06:17   and I wasn't about to try to explain in one hundred forty characters what difference between access to Apple's [TS]

00:06:23   customers and the Internet is but I will try to do so now. The Internet the Internet is that it's a series of tubes. [TS]

00:06:34   Yet by definition there is one internet anything you connect to the internet becomes part of the Internet the Internet [TS]

00:06:41   is the way we are all connected to each other there are not multiple internets there's not one not two there's not five. [TS]

00:06:47   If you made a second one [TS]

00:06:48   and it connected to the internet it will become part of the Internet because every place in the Internet is reachable [TS]

00:06:53   to every other place plus or minus Nat knows stuff that's like. [TS]

00:06:56   Conceptually that's what the Internet is it's how we're all connected to each other. [TS]

00:07:02   That is very different than getting access to the customers of the second placed cell phone you know platform [TS]

00:07:12   or any other type of thing like that like maybe if Android didn't exist and I guess of Microsoft didn't also exist. [TS]

00:07:20   You would have a little bit more of an argument [TS]

00:07:22   but I would say that even in that case the possibility of something coming up that would be similar to us like a vendor [TS]

00:07:30   didn't exist like well Google could enter the phone space and make their own operating system and platform [TS]

00:07:34   and bizarre Apple could or enough of our Amazon could [TS]

00:07:37   or Microsoft could write no one is saying well what about one competitor to the Internet comes along there's this whole [TS]

00:07:43   Internet thing could be you know replaced by just some hungry competitor comes up with the in the new Internet the [TS]

00:07:47   Internet too which is a thing that exists look it up in any way I like. [TS]

00:07:50   Still you know I'm sure it does and I'm sure it will eventually be connected. [TS]

00:07:53   What about the I P V six Internet will come to replace the old Internet. That is not much of a possibility. [TS]

00:08:00   I think happening these days the Internet access is the the Internet itself is a very perhaps the only unique singular [TS]

00:08:07   or different than everything else. In many many different ways. [TS]

00:08:13   Like I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the Internet is so different from the I was that store that doesn't [TS]

00:08:19   apply but if you know fine I can hear there. [TS]

00:08:20   They're basically the same thing it's a bunch of people connected through tubes into each other you know. [TS]

00:08:26   It should be the same. [TS]

00:08:27   The second part of this thing and this gets into the nitty gritty does net neutrality is in the United States. [TS]

00:08:33   Your choice for getting internet access are much more limited than your choice for a cell phone provider pretty much [TS]

00:08:38   anywhere in the United States can get an i Phone has the opportunity to if it's in they go for the i Phone they get a [TS]

00:08:44   phone that is team Mobile Prepaid they can you know get an Android phone you can get on one of my dumb phones like that. [TS]

00:08:50   Your choices for cell phone tablet so on [TS]

00:08:53   and so forth no matter where you live the United States you have many different choices [TS]

00:08:57   and a lot of places United States you only have one choice for internet access [TS]

00:09:01   and some of those places where you might have two choices [TS]

00:09:03   and you will have one choice because there is constant pollination a lot of these places have local monopolies. [TS]

00:09:09   And the reason they're local monopolies these are the third reason in the United States anyway I don't know about the [TS]

00:09:13   rest of the world [TS]

00:09:14   but in the United States a lot of our Internet infrastructure was built essentially with taxpayer dollars these [TS]

00:09:20   broadband companies got billions of dollars in tax breaks in exchange for OK well we'll give you these tax breaks we'll [TS]

00:09:26   help you out here the government said as long as you build out your network to provide more people with access because [TS]

00:09:31   we have the government to decide it's for the good of the nation then more people have broadband access Therefore here [TS]

00:09:35   is a billion dollar write off for you to continue to expand your networks. [TS]

00:09:39   So these networks of these speeds have some whom are a monopoly [TS]

00:09:43   and in their particular local markets weren't just built by those via speeds they were built with taxpayer money [TS]

00:09:49   and they have been operating for many years in a way that is neutral to that where they don't decide you know who's [TS]

00:09:55   traffic so they sped up and slowed down based on who will pay them all. This I think makes the Internet. [TS]

00:10:02   It's complicated by the fact that of course I was asked our runs over the Internet [TS]

00:10:06   and if you want to think about that you can say well OK what if Comcast decides they want forty percent of every bridge [TS]

00:10:11   to the App Store everybody go nuts right. [TS]

00:10:13   I think they are extremely different situations [TS]

00:10:17   and I don't see any inconsistency in saying the internet this strange singular thing that in the United States is only [TS]

00:10:24   accessible to people through a single broadband I speak in many locations there has been a partially paid for by [TS]

00:10:29   taxpayer money and has operated in this sort of common carrier situation for many many years. [TS]

00:10:36   Should be treated differently then one vendors app store [TS]

00:10:40   and put a link in the will put in the show notes the recent via hard video trying to explain that neutrality which is [TS]

00:10:47   kind of a boring weird thing to understand but she does these little things which he draws on a notepad [TS]

00:10:51   and talks over it and maybe will make it any clearer but at least you'll be entertained. [TS]

00:10:56   The fun thing about her example is the case you allude to when you watch the video. [TS]

00:11:00   The example she gives the way she tries to draw an analogy is that the customer who uses a lot like Netflix you know [TS]

00:11:06   it's like wow a huge amount of the traffic going through these high speeds Netflix uses the eyes these go the netbook [TS]

00:11:13   and say you know thirty percent our traffic is from your stupid movies why don't you pass some extra money otherwise [TS]

00:11:18   we'll throttle your bandwidth which is exactly the opposite of the situation that I was suggesting for Amazon [TS]

00:11:23   or at the App Store in general which is hey looks like you're selling twenty billion dollars worth of comic books. [TS]

00:11:28   But would you guys like a volume discount. [TS]

00:11:30   We'll take less of a percentage if you if you sell more because we want people to drive more [TS]

00:11:34   and more business through our store. [TS]

00:11:37   I don't think the direction you're turning it makes much of a difference the bottom line is I think Apple should have [TS]

00:11:42   the right to set whatever terms it wants for the people who sell through that store [TS]

00:11:46   and I don't think there's anything magical about it being thirty percent for everybody [TS]

00:11:49   and as many people pointed out it's not thirty percent parody if you saw a commercial commercial physical product [TS]

00:11:54   through the app store you don't have to pay Apple anything. [TS]

00:11:56   Why because Apple makes the rules of their app store that it's already not. [TS]

00:12:00   Uniform and all I was suggesting was continue to make it not uniform come up with a different rate take larger [TS]

00:12:05   or smaller percentage based on volume based on whatever the heck you want to do. [TS]

00:12:09   Unlike the net neutrality thing if Apple give them is on a break [TS]

00:12:12   and bad things start to happen they can change their mind and couple kind of any time change the terms [TS]

00:12:18   and they control their own apps third is a private thing that happens over the Internet [TS]

00:12:22   but it is definitely a private thing [TS]

00:12:25   and the only point where I can have the apple comics knowledge thing which they had chanced upon [TS]

00:12:28   and assurances for the most part the only feedback we got were the net neutrality ones [TS]

00:12:35   and people telling me that the App Store has to stay the way it is otherwise bad things will happen. [TS]

00:12:39   Oh and the third one is that Apple shouldn't budge because Amazon's in the wrong [TS]

00:12:43   and why should Apple change anything it's Apple's right to do whatever it wants. [TS]

00:12:47   Nobody wrote me [TS]

00:12:48   and to say that it was better for users this way they had not being able to buy comic books through the comic jab is [TS]

00:12:54   better for use and nobody argued that which makes me think that is a pretty slam dunk evern agrees that's worse. [TS]

00:12:59   So all the people arguing opposite are basically saying it's OK for things to be slightly worse than Apple's platform [TS]

00:13:04   because [TS]

00:13:04   and then the greater good like because they have to hold lying as if they give in now though to be giving in forever [TS]

00:13:09   and they'll lose control the App Store and so on [TS]

00:13:10   and so forth I think that slippery slope angle would be more convincing if this is the first time this happened [TS]

00:13:15   and if this hadn't been the case on the App Store for years and Amazon had shown it is not going to budge [TS]

00:13:20   and I think the other point about the situation is that the way I think about it is is this a bigger problem for Apple [TS]

00:13:27   or Amazon if you know Amazon says OK we're going to make you buy everything through a website and apples [TS]

00:13:33   and get those out there who is that a bigger problem for us that have a bigger problem for Apple now that they're not [TS]

00:13:37   getting a thirty percent of anything because Apple selling or into the Web site or is it a bigger problem Amazon [TS]

00:13:42   and that people won't buy as many comics do they have to go to the stupid web site I think [TS]

00:13:46   and as I tried to argue last time it is a bigger problem for Apple because it makes Apple's product from worse and [TS]

00:13:55   and Amazon always has the excuse of well yeah from a little worse but hey if you don't like. [TS]

00:14:00   By candle like they have their own platforms to promote in exchange right [TS]

00:14:05   and so yes Amazon is going to lose sales because people can't buy things easily [TS]

00:14:08   but their answer is so much more compelling than Apple's their answer is you should be buying the stupid i Pad anyway. [TS]

00:14:13   Buy Kindle Fire we have an amazing looking screen it's a great place to retire [TS]

00:14:16   and if you can buy them right on a device by the way it's also cheaper than an i Pad Apple's answer is yes worse [TS]

00:14:22   but trust us we really need to hold the line on this because if we give in to Amazon the world will come to an end [TS]

00:14:26   and I did get two different kinds of people were like oh this happened [TS]

00:14:30   and they kept using their mom the examples I'm just the messenger don't shoot me again it could be because their [TS]

00:14:36   mothers are much more technologically advanced in their fathers [TS]

00:14:39   and if I was not touch i Pads But anyway they were saying this happened on my moms i Pad [TS]

00:14:43   and i just put a shortcut to the you know to go to the Web site on her i Pad and she just goes that it's no problem [TS]

00:14:50   but not a big deal. [TS]

00:14:51   Another person said this happened about when the Kindle Store stopped having and in turn the web for the Web site. [TS]

00:14:57   This happened on you know back in two thousand and eleven for the Kindle Store. [TS]

00:15:00   And from that point on my mom always calls me when she wants to buy a book and I buy it for her [TS]

00:15:06   and then other people saying this happened [TS]

00:15:08   and then someone you know stopped even buying things because they said oh this is stupid it's broken now I'm not going [TS]

00:15:13   to do this anymore so I go eleventh on all sides whether this is a problem or not [TS]

00:15:17   but I think the one person who said that that is not a big deal just go to the web link. [TS]

00:15:23   But anyway I think this hurts Apple more than it hurts Amazon [TS]

00:15:27   and I think after several years it's clear that Apple is not going to win this by holding strong [TS]

00:15:33   and I just don't see the point anymore in holding the line [TS]

00:15:36   and making things worse for users with the expectation that with the argument that if you do anything else just the App [TS]

00:15:42   Store will come crumbling down if they do this [TS]

00:15:43   and it turns out that they still have total control Apple changed the rules at any time I think it's worth an [TS]

00:15:48   experiment especially to be a secret experiment where they have secret deals with Amazon and they call it off [TS]

00:15:53   and they have India isn't known to talk about it or ever like apples in the driver's seat here. [TS]

00:15:58   I just think it's time for customers. I'm suffering. [TS]

00:16:00   Well hold on though there was one of the point that that a few people pointed out that you know one of the reasons why [TS]

00:16:07   Amazon might not want to do apples in a purchase system has nothing to do with thirty percent cut [TS]

00:16:12   and everything to do with Amazon wanting to own that. [TS]

00:16:15   That buying experience and I lose that a little bit [TS]

00:16:18   but I'm going to number of people pointing out specifics of why that's important to them. [TS]

00:16:22   So one of the biggest of course is they want your credit card information to be entered into Amazon. [TS]

00:16:28   They want to you know they want to have the most credit card on file of anybody [TS]

00:16:31   and they want to they want your default behavior to be if you're going to buy something buy it from Amazon with one [TS]

00:16:36   click done done done. [TS]

00:16:37   And so for you to use an Apple system that's like that's one more customer than Amazon might not have using them. [TS]

00:16:46   Also Amazon extensively when possible [TS]

00:16:50   and this is the does it become less possible with big name ebooks because of the agency deal but [TS]

00:16:54   when possible Amazon users have a heavy price controls and price tweaking [TS]

00:16:59   and that's why if you go visit if you visit you know Amazon product pages for almost anything it's kind of unusual to [TS]

00:17:07   see the same price twice and the prices seem kind of random [TS]

00:17:11   and special individual goes where they can they can fudge numbers [TS]

00:17:14   and you know they reserve the right on their app store to change the price of apps at will and stuff like that. [TS]

00:17:20   There's all sorts of ways Amazon uses price control as a sales or data tactic [TS]

00:17:27   and they can't really do that at the kind of granularity and volume they would want to do it at [TS]

00:17:34   and Apple system at all. [TS]

00:17:36   So [TS]

00:17:37   and again so it's all I think with Amazon it's much more about owning that transaction getting user behavior getting everyone [TS]

00:17:44   using Amazon and paying their Amazon I don't think even if Apple system was free I don't think Amazon would use. [TS]

00:17:51   Now it is Apple's fault for disallowing them from using their own that you know that's certainly something Apple could [TS]

00:17:56   change if they wanted to. But again I think that opens up a lot. [TS]

00:18:00   Your can of worms and I think that would be a bad precedent to set. [TS]

00:18:03   Yeah I don't think I did I still don't think allowing alternate payment systems as reason I think anyone suggests that [TS]

00:18:09   a lot of people sent in email about this saying you know they all they should never allow altered Yeah they probably [TS]

00:18:15   should not alter payment systems like you can see how that could be chaos and terrible and everything [TS]

00:18:20   and if it's the case that all Amazon wants credit card numbers because Apple has way more credit cards Amazon does as a [TS]

00:18:25   home and to run a stat recently but it wasn't even close and you would think Amazon would have more credit cards [TS]

00:18:29   but apparently not. But if that's if that's the line in the sand and Amazon is making. [TS]

00:18:33   I still think this is Apple's problem [TS]

00:18:34   and I think it's even worse problem because it's like a what can we do in fact if we made it free they still wouldn't [TS]

00:18:39   buy like Amazon has things that Apple doesn't Amazon has a popular store where people buy tons of stuff Apple has a [TS]

00:18:45   kind of semi popular store people buy some things and the book sells comics too [TS]

00:18:49   but I'm saying it's a terrible experience [TS]

00:18:51   and you know like it's a problem you know it's a similar situation always with Google Google has something that Apple [TS]

00:18:58   needs and Apple decided we're going to make our own which is a good strategic move because you know [TS]

00:19:03   when to rely on your your deadly enemy to be providing you with a sense of optionality but it's really hard [TS]

00:19:08   and Google really good at what it does an Apple tried to do some of the same stuff itself [TS]

00:19:11   and didn't do that good a job and it's getting better. [TS]

00:19:13   What are they going to do now like it as a platform owner Apple has to figure this stuff out. [TS]

00:19:18   They can have a platform and say do everything our way but we're not to use anything regal him [TS]

00:19:22   or not he's learning from Amazon [TS]

00:19:23   and just everything's going to be a little bit worse like their job as a platform is to encourage a rich ecosystem of [TS]

00:19:29   people who provide awesome apps [TS]

00:19:30   and if everyone knows if you're going to buy stuff go to Amazon's platform if you're going to do anything with cloud [TS]

00:19:35   stuff go to Google's form but I guess anything else you know like this is Apple's problem long term [TS]

00:19:40   and I don't know what the solution is I'm just arguing for at this point being stubborn [TS]

00:19:46   and holding on for another three years as they've done with you know allowing you to purchase stuff inside applications [TS]

00:19:53   is not is going to hurt Apple more than it hurts Amazon or more than [TS]

00:19:56   or it's Google unless you know those solutions are going to tell tons of stuff. [TS]

00:20:00   Since his violence had ninety percent market share then suddenly this is back and they have it on Google's problem. [TS]

00:20:04   But they don't so for now it's Apple's problem. [TS]

00:20:08   Well they do have that kind of level of a lot of things like you know web browsing with purchase intent [TS]

00:20:13   and stuff like that like Apple the I was platform does represent itself way larger the installed base in things like [TS]

00:20:22   you know what percentage of people doing actual online purchasing of goods are using Apple stuff. [TS]

00:20:28   You know what percentage of people buying books online buying movies online you know that kind of stuff. [TS]

00:20:33   I bet Apple's platforms actually are big enough in those that Amazon for instance has to have [TS]

00:20:39   and I was there for their business to be healthy in that department. [TS]

00:20:43   Well I don't I don't know they were broken down by how many purchases were through apps for us is how many were through [TS]

00:20:47   mobile Safari some were going to Amazon dot com I'm just buying you know sweaters [TS]

00:20:50   and stuff like I don't I don't know if it's broken down by Apple Amazon's perfectly happy to let you use your i Pad as [TS]

00:20:55   a web browser and buy stuff from Amazon. [TS]

00:20:59   So can we go back a second to the is this [TS]

00:21:02   or is this not net neutrality debate because I feel like you kind of fluff that off well it's not the Internet that's [TS]

00:21:08   that's not the same. [TS]

00:21:09   So no it's in I don't know if it's quite so simple and the way I look at it [TS]

00:21:14   and it didn't occur to me until people wrote in about it [TS]

00:21:16   but if you look at the situation at my house today if I want to watch some content let's use Netflix as an example for [TS]

00:21:26   Verizon is standing between me and that content. [TS]

00:21:31   So somehow or another I need for rising to kind of orchestrate the exchange between Netflix and me in a similar vein. [TS]

00:21:40   If I have an i Phone and i want some content be it a comic or be it an app or whatever the case may be. [TS]

00:21:48   Apple is standing between me and the content I want [TS]

00:21:52   and I think what people are bothered by is at this point couldn't you make a reasonable argument. [TS]

00:22:00   At the same kind of common carrier stuff that applies to a risin Isn't that almost Are we almost at the point that that [TS]

00:22:09   applies to apple to apples not viruses not between you and the content you want for us in this venue in the Internet. [TS]

00:22:16   Sure and that's that's an important distinction because [TS]

00:22:19   when you're buying something through Apple you know you're buying something from Apple store right. [TS]

00:22:24   Someone uploaded to Apple Apple has it. [TS]

00:22:26   Verizon has nothing fries [TS]

00:22:27   and doesn't like you are choosing to go through a Verizon gate to get to the Internet at which point you can choose [TS]

00:22:33   wherever you want to go. [TS]

00:22:35   I mean you're going through the intra crowd are you going through the Internet to get to the app store if you want to [TS]

00:22:39   think of it that way Verizon is the gate between you [TS]

00:22:42   and buying they Why shouldn't rising get forty percent of every purchase to the App Store they are your gate into the [TS]

00:22:47   Internet and the Internet is a different thing it's how we are all connected to each other. [TS]

00:22:52   Verisign does not own anything on the Internet Verizon does not run the Internet [TS]

00:22:56   and doesn't run Netflix Arisan doesn't accept uploaded videos from for movie theaters the Netflix horizon doesn't [TS]

00:23:01   manage this is corruptions of people to Netflix. Brother nothing to do with Netflix. [TS]

00:23:05   They are a gateway to the Internet. [TS]

00:23:07   They like to put themselves in between [TS]

00:23:09   and say oh well the entire Internet is our oyster would no matter what you want to do there we can extort money from [TS]

00:23:14   whatever the most popular things are because otherwise we'll cut off their access [TS]

00:23:17   and we can do that because in the US anyway in many markets we have monopolies [TS]

00:23:21   and what are they going to do go to a different competitor for us [TS]

00:23:23   and has nothing Apple owns the app store except uploads they have a developer program they made the hardware that made [TS]

00:23:28   the software they allow people to upload things they accept your money they do it like that is Apple. [TS]

00:23:33   We're going through the Internet to get the apple is not the same thing as the Internet at all the internet is a [TS]

00:23:38   special unique snowflake I'm going to say that different than everything else the Internet is not the App Store for [TS]

00:23:44   crowd the gaps on the Internet without the Internet nothing works so simply because Apple made the App Store it we have [TS]

00:23:54   to play by their rules even if they're completely unfair and owns it and runs it and makes all decisions that. [TS]

00:24:00   Is it a private entity it's basically private versus public and I think the Internet works best [TS]

00:24:05   and has historically been treated as a public thing that we all share together because it doesn't work if we if we cut [TS]

00:24:10   ourselves off from it and try to divvy it up into little pieces [TS]

00:24:13   and disconnect if you disconnect a sub network from the Internet that's like it's not that you're not on you know on [TS]

00:24:19   the internet anymore it's pointless to anybody to north the says well we're not going to communicate with anybody is [TS]

00:24:23   not in the northeast like that's pointless. The whole point is we're all connected to each other through it. [TS]

00:24:28   That's what makes the Internet the Internet it is a unique thing it should be treated differently than everything else [TS]

00:24:34   that's totally different and they live on the Internet [TS]

00:24:38   and I mean it is complicated by the fact of the App Store then that would be simpler if it was just like you know [TS]

00:24:43   something something that was involved in. [TS]

00:24:45   But everything's all good [TS]

00:24:46   and now that they were net neutrality is like if you allow regional I a species to be gatekeepers [TS]

00:24:52   and extort money for things they're already being paid for on both ends they're going to choose the winners and losers. [TS]

00:24:55   Apple chooses winners [TS]

00:24:56   and losers in its own app store all the time they choose who to feature they choose who to be rejected they choose [TS]

00:25:01   every they choose to make the rules they change the rules once your application is in the App Store. [TS]

00:25:05   Of course they pick the winners and losers in the App Store it's their thing [TS]

00:25:08   but they don't choose whether you can get to the App Store for I would choose. [TS]

00:25:12   Well if Apple doesn't pay us we're not going to let people go to the app store over there. [TS]

00:25:15   I was devices wirelessly right. It's almost as if you're creating your own Internet. [TS]

00:25:20   Speaking of which our sponsor this is a glue it makes an Internet you'll actually like nothing even different Read this [TS]

00:25:28   time so the but I figured to better in there anyway so its quarterly earnings season. [TS]

00:25:33   Time to read those highly scripted texts about revenue margin and earnings data with that in mind. [TS]

00:25:39   Bigloo the makers of an Internet you'll actually like want to present a quarterly report that you'll actually like [TS]

00:25:46   they're a private company so it's hard to present the numbers you care about in a way it's easy to understand. [TS]

00:25:51   It's how to design their software to the quarterly report takes the form of the info graphic with fun stats about how [TS]

00:25:57   customers use their internet every day. One blog post every minute. [TS]

00:26:01   Hundred forty four meetings every hour nine hundred ninety five Wiki article is added every day [TS]

00:26:07   and it's blended with quirky facts about the people that work an igloo for example they've consumed six thousand one [TS]

00:26:13   hundred forty four cups of coffee in the past three months. [TS]

00:26:16   The farts develop with a cool parallax experience and some cool animations. So check it out. What. [TS]

00:26:20   Check out what's been happening this year. [TS]

00:26:23   Bigloo Software dot com slash earnings once again check out it was software the makers of the Internet you'll actually [TS]

00:26:29   like at Bigloo Software dot com slash earnings. [TS]

00:26:33   Thanks a lot for sponsoring our show once again they're pretty cool people there. [TS]

00:26:38   All right the last bit of follow up is on Affleck's quick little thing we talked about the Facebook project appliques [TS]

00:26:44   last week [TS]

00:26:45   and we got a bunch of feedback from people who are much more familiar with it than we are saying that the really the [TS]

00:26:50   point of Apple inks is mostly not about going from browsers to apps which is what we were mostly talking about. [TS]

00:26:57   It's mostly to more intelligently link from apps to other apps without bouncing through the browser. [TS]

00:27:04   So for instance if you know like in the Twitter app if they were with integrated appling send you into an Instagram [TS]

00:27:10   link Well assuming Twitter [TS]

00:27:11   and Facebook we're talking about Twitter would actually explicitly disable the Instagram link from working. [TS]

00:27:18   But anyway suppose it was some other service Twitter's friendly with like OK suppose is the tumblr app [TS]

00:27:27   and Teller Apostolate Instagram but I don't think they hate each other yet so the tumblr app [TS]

00:27:32   and you know link direct that Instagram instead of you know bounce of the web browser so it's still to fetch the page [TS]

00:27:39   but you know they have a library that handles that for you. [TS]

00:27:42   It's a kind of a fee it's still you don't have to fetch the page. [TS]

00:27:47   Well they have to fetch the extreme out now you know because like that's part of the A.P.I. [TS]

00:27:51   That's one of the things that people are pointing out to us is that this case you brought that up to the bone I was [TS]

00:27:54   looking at the docs like that the stuff is still in the page but that's like the protocol. [TS]

00:28:00   Like how do you provide this information the thing but Facebook or somebody like provides a library that like this [TS]

00:28:06   and you can crawl the pages self extracting immigration but we also provide an A.P.I. [TS]

00:28:10   That basically you just give us a U.R.L. [TS]

00:28:12   and We give you the equivalent like Apple Inc and oh that's right the discovery service that's right. [TS]

00:28:17   Right so like so well crawl them and like so then you don't have to go out to a page [TS]

00:28:21   and get it if you're lucky it'll be in like a cash or a local thing or you know boils down to the same thing [TS]

00:28:26   but basically like they want to be able to given you know given a U.R.L. [TS]

00:28:31   That I would go to want to web page instead of going to that web page. [TS]

00:28:34   Have something else that has already been to that web page. [TS]

00:28:36   Extract the information needed to build the Apple Inc And that takes me deeply into another application [TS]

00:28:41   and hopefully you don't think doesn't that actually go to their web page put up [TS]

00:28:44   and do that thing hopefully something is done it before [TS]

00:28:47   but that's the equivalency that's the I think the piece that I was missing the thing is basically like given to you [TS]

00:28:51   or all that works in a web browser. [TS]

00:28:54   They would they would work just fine like it shows you that the thing you're going to buy or whatever. [TS]

00:28:59   Tell me what is the equivalent location inside an application [TS]

00:29:02   and form that into an Apple Inc that I can use to get to the equivalent page inside another as well as a fantastic way [TS]

00:29:09   for Facebook to capture tons of click data on all the or else people clicking in apps. [TS]

00:29:13   Now see now I know what it launches there we go. That's the reason right there. [TS]

00:29:17   It's just a discovery service is just in the intimate patient detail don't worry about it. [TS]

00:29:21   Well you're right they want to bypass the web they be the only the only way you could get to places like you know [TS]

00:29:26   protocol helpers or going to your web page [TS]

00:29:28   or redirecting you to the like whatever protocol handler that Iowa says as long as your application is like no no no [TS]

00:29:33   we'll we'll get that you know given your oh we will tell you what the equivalent application page is based on all this [TS]

00:29:39   metadata that is in the euro [TS]

00:29:40   and that's where the stuff is on a web page it makes more sense to me now that like you know if you don't support [TS]

00:29:45   uplinks you just go to the page and the page will show you details for that book. [TS]

00:29:48   But if that pay to that link of her mission [TS]

00:29:50   and you tap on an Apple Apple Inc We won't show you that detail page for the book instead will take you directly to the [TS]

00:29:56   bookselling application that you know the page that shows it. [TS]

00:30:00   Inside the app instead of going to a web browser where [TS]

00:30:02   and for every single link you tap in any application that supports this it's going to first check with the Facebook [TS]

00:30:07   discovery service. [TS]

00:30:08   And yeah anyone else can run a discovery service but this is going to be the default one that's already built in free. [TS]

00:30:13   So of course everyone's going to use that [TS]

00:30:15   and that way every single link you ever tap in an app that supports this will first tell Facebook that you're clicking [TS]

00:30:19   on it. [TS]

00:30:19   That's fantastic but it's there I mean it will may only tell Facebook [TS]

00:30:24   but you know Facebook wants to have this constellation of applications surrounding their data [TS]

00:30:28   and so they want to use it for their purposes like OK well they don't have the Facebook whatever happens stalled take [TS]

00:30:33   them to Facebook dot com slash whatever [TS]

00:30:35   but if they do have the Facebook whatever out of style Don't bother sending the Facebook comes to turn into the app [TS]

00:30:39   because they think their big thing now is like you know customized experiences [TS]

00:30:43   and native applications instead of sending people to one big blue Web site we also have T. Shirts for sale. [TS]

00:30:49   We have teachers for sale for a very short time remaining We only have right now there is as we record there is like [TS]

00:30:55   four days remaining when we release is it'll be more like one or a day and a half or meaning. So please if you want a T. [TS]

00:31:01   Shirt which we greatly appreciate because we'll make a few dollars on each one if you want to T. [TS]

00:31:06   Shirt please get it quickly because we're almost out of time [TS]

00:31:12   but thank you very much everyone who's bought them so far the numbers have have really surprised me what we've sold as [TS]

00:31:17   we recorded just under a thousand which is amazing I think I was estimating like a few hundred maybe at best and [TS]

00:31:23   and so I'm very happy. [TS]

00:31:24   Thank you everyone for buying our shirts you know and that's very awesome of everyone who has and we appreciate it. [TS]

00:31:31   So if you want one go to a D.P. That F.M. [TS]

00:31:34   Slash shirt and we did announce this on last week's show [TS]

00:31:38   and that was that was like your advance notice so if you're hearing this show [TS]

00:31:41   and it's like Sunday you probably missed it already. [TS]

00:31:44   Yes this is all this is only for the people who are going down the show when it comes out on Friday [TS]

00:31:48   or I think Saturday you might have time so you did have an entire week to try to get the shirt. [TS]

00:31:53   I know people are going to be sad because they missed it is give away to the last minute can't decide if they want [TS]

00:31:57   or not so if you're listening to us now and you think you might. [TS]

00:32:00   I'm sure it just pulse the pocket [TS]

00:32:02   and go see if the sale store their price to move people some people are asking if they thought the source code in the [TS]

00:32:08   back or come out our answer is we have no idea [TS]

00:32:11   but we really hope it does I think you know you have no way to tell I mean I like I made it as big as possible [TS]

00:32:17   and I intentionally made the lines very short so that I could scale the text up [TS]

00:32:21   and have it fit in the back I also used the Monaco bold so everything is a should be a little sticker which should make [TS]

00:32:28   it a little bit more likely to come out I think so. [TS]

00:32:31   And we only used a few colors they can they can reuse the color but I haven't liked either it [TS]

00:32:35   or anything weird like that so I thought using Menlo Eden is mellow. Oh sorry it is memory right. [TS]

00:32:41   Yes I use memo so it so it doesn't look stupid. [TS]

00:32:43   But yes so it's it should be relatively thick so it should turn out but we aren't screen printers [TS]

00:32:50   and we aren't to spring and we because of the way T. [TS]

00:32:53   Spring works we can't really get a sample first like we have to get put [TS]

00:32:57   and put them for sale before any are printed including ours and we will get them [TS]

00:33:01   when everyone else does so we think the code on the back will turn out [TS]

00:33:05   but we really can't know for sure until it does so we can't really guarantee that [TS]

00:33:09   but we'll find out if it doesn't think of it this way you'll have the T.-Shirt equivalent of the upside down airplane [TS]

00:33:13   stamp. Yeah I mean like I and I have a few other shirts from T. Spring and their quality seems really good. [TS]

00:33:20   There are real screen printing shop that it isn't doing like what Cafe Press does where it's where it's basically like [TS]

00:33:25   a transfer. [TS]

00:33:27   They're actually like it's a real screen printer [TS]

00:33:30   and you know they were able to get quite a lot of detail on the run this writer had previously from them so I have high [TS]

00:33:34   hopes but we'll see. All right so we got some news about apt. [TS]

00:33:39   NET yesterday's error yesterday when we record this anyways [TS]

00:33:45   and it sounds like they're sunsetting their brand without sunsetting their brand another winding down. My apologies. [TS]

00:33:52   No no no sorry they're winding down just a developer incentive program. [TS]

00:33:56   After that will continue operating on a forward basis. Nobody actually dedicated to it right. [TS]

00:34:02   See this this is this is sad I mean I can't really say that no one saw this coming because we all saw this coming I [TS]

00:34:10   think but I just don't I think they should have just killed it. And Alex I'm sure we're going to kill it. [TS]

00:34:18   It's you know maybe they haven't killed yet because they want to wait out people who have paid so they don't try to [TS]

00:34:24   deal with issuing refunds for like partially fulfilled subscriptions. That's a pretty good reason. [TS]

00:34:29   But although they were to do that they should stop taking subscriptions now. [TS]

00:34:35   So it may be that it was maybe it was in their plan but you know now what they basically said is so a few weeks ago [TS]

00:34:44   and in mid April was [TS]

00:34:46   when all of the initial subscriptions expired so if you if you were one of the backers at the very beginning which is [TS]

00:34:52   where I think most of their user base came from most of their paying user base. [TS]

00:34:57   If you're one of those original backers that they did come to kick starter style thing [TS]

00:35:02   and they will they lower the price then you get extended [TS]

00:35:04   and so anyway all those occasions were up a few weeks ago in early April. [TS]

00:35:11   And so of that massive original wave of backers they basically said they didn't get enough renewals to be able to [TS]

00:35:17   afford any other or any full time employees anymore. [TS]

00:35:20   So there are now no more employees they will use contract work here [TS]

00:35:26   and there occasionally as the budget permits which is a fancy way of saying if you subscribe some more [TS]

00:35:32   and so it's it's basically like there's basically no one working on it anymore [TS]

00:35:36   and they said it's it's financially healthy enough to keep going indefinitely. [TS]

00:35:42   But you know that statement is probably based on the numbers describers that it has today. [TS]

00:35:47   And now they've announced it it's kind of dying or dead. [TS]

00:35:50   I suspect the numbers I will continue that can continue to go down. [TS]

00:35:55   So I suspect that you know an actual shutdown is is like. It with and probably I don't know six months. [TS]

00:36:02   So did you either of you guys really knew when the renewal went when the renewal happens. [TS]

00:36:07   I did and now I regret it of course not in here. Same here. I didn't actually because I just never use it. [TS]

00:36:14   I do use it I still use it every day and you know I'll be sad to see it go away [TS]

00:36:19   but you know I mean to me I don't really actively use it I well I use it to announce that we're live [TS]

00:36:26   and there's some more to the order of two hundred people that subscribe to that. [TS]

00:36:30   And actually two hundred four and I use it when somebody mentions me but that's it. [TS]

00:36:38   I never actively go tap dot net to just see what's cracking on the i time every go is if somebody is addressing me [TS]

00:36:45   or I'm announcing our life I discovered when when my but my rule is coming up I decided you know what. [TS]

00:36:52   I don't use anymore so I don't pay for again when they convert my paid account to a free account [TS]

00:36:57   and to do that you have to use the stay under a certain following limit I think it's like forty people that you can [TS]

00:37:02   follow it something like that. [TS]

00:37:04   And and so I had to reduce my following list down to that number and so what I did was I want to follow it [TS]

00:37:11   and I just opened up all those people's timelines on at that net [TS]

00:37:14   and anyone who had not posted any time recently I assume had been in the service [TS]

00:37:20   and therefore I could see if they don't follow them [TS]

00:37:23   and it was really really easy to get the number down by that method because so many people. [TS]

00:37:29   It was it was I was actually kind of surprised like how many people who I initially had followed were no longer using [TS]

00:37:34   the service. Like so many people hadn't posted in months. Some of them hadn't posted in over a year. [TS]

00:37:40   The service is about two years old some of them hadn't posted in over a year some of them had never posted [TS]

00:37:45   and they were like I had followed them because of like a Twitter friend finder kind of thing [TS]

00:37:50   and it was it was kind of sad [TS]

00:37:52   and it was it was kind of sobering I really think you know there are people who use it every day no question. [TS]

00:37:57   But I think it's a really small group. [TS]

00:38:00   And I've heard from from developers of net dot apps that it just they were just never enough users to really make [TS]

00:38:09   development for it feasible you know you need a critical mass of your friends to be there for it to be viable for you [TS]

00:38:17   and I went over there [TS]

00:38:18   and it became very clear very quickly that a critical mass of the people I you know interact with did not make it over [TS]

00:38:25   there from Twitter [TS]

00:38:26   and so it for a while like there was a tiny little bubble of people over there that I would talk with in that in that [TS]

00:38:33   arena. [TS]

00:38:34   But it was clear that most of my interactions were still going to take take place [TS]

00:38:38   and quit on Twitter because that's where everybody was [TS]

00:38:40   and after that became kind of like a back channel for Twitter because of the small subset of people who are you know [TS]

00:38:45   driven daft not met by anger at Twitter [TS]

00:38:47   or by just you know desire nothing like that could be interesting back channel for commentary and stuff [TS]

00:38:52   but it was never going to be like and enough people didn't move [TS]

00:38:55   and with with things like this with you know with with platforms where you're seeing things other people write [TS]

00:39:03   and other people seeing things that you write. [TS]

00:39:07   Audience is king and if you know the people you want to follow aren't posting on at the net [TS]

00:39:12   and the people you want to read what you're writing aren't on the net then you just you know it's not going to go there [TS]

00:39:17   and you know I didn't read Briana's post yet [TS]

00:39:20   but you just basically like I have an Instapaper of course that it's not a technology problem it's social problem [TS]

00:39:28   and as unfortunate as that is like we thought they had some of the social aspects from the developer pressing side they [TS]

00:39:33   had better than Twitter they figured out how can we make it. [TS]

00:39:37   You know how do you make a win win situation for developers to use as a platform but the biggest [TS]

00:39:41   when they didn't put it put in there which Marco pointed out is you've got to have a lot of users because there has to [TS]

00:39:45   be a large potential customer base and if you can't get that it doesn't matter if you do all those other things right. [TS]

00:39:51   Everything else flows from. Well yeah but who's there. [TS]

00:39:53   How many users do you have I mean a clone of that I go eyeballs and big growth rates and you know it's like. [TS]

00:40:00   But you don't have to make everything free for everybody and just make the entire world use it [TS]

00:40:04   but you do have to meet some minimum and they just never met it. [TS]

00:40:08   Then we can go you know twenty twenty hindsight and say what should they have done to get more users. [TS]

00:40:12   Margo I think has talked about probably the biggest reception waiting way too long to do a free tier [TS]

00:40:18   and that just put a stop around the entire service for like an entire year. [TS]

00:40:22   Yeah I mean that was the big thing like you know it was noble of them to try a paid model you know so they could avoid [TS]

00:40:29   the weird advertiser creepiness phenomenon that all these free services have to turn to to make money. [TS]

00:40:35   You know that was an idea but the problem is and you know we all think knew it at the time. [TS]

00:40:40   The problem is that for for a social product like that you need as many people as possible [TS]

00:40:47   and by putting up the paywall right at the beginning [TS]

00:40:49   and having no free tier having everything be paid only at the beginning for the whole for almost the whole first year [TS]

00:40:56   that that was really really fatal. [TS]

00:40:59   And furthermore they even after they they made a free tier in I believe last early last May or last April [TS]

00:41:09   but for a while you had to have an invitation from somebody else [TS]

00:41:13   and there were a limited number of imitation so you had to you had to be invited by a paid member now that that I think [TS]

00:41:20   was fatal. Also even more fatal beating a dead after even more people because they when they did finally go free. [TS]

00:41:29   There was a big asterisk. Well it's free but you can just go sign up. [TS]

00:41:32   It's free but you have to be invited and there's very few invites a hen [TS]

00:41:36   and they eventually remove the invitation requirement. [TS]

00:41:41   But everyone had already been told that this was now free but we need an invitation so it's like [TS]

00:41:46   and no one no one got the memo. [TS]

00:41:48   When that requirement was lifted and so even people who were on the fence about it once they learned it was free [TS]

00:41:55   and then were kind of turned away by that by the imitation requirement. They probably didn't. [TS]

00:42:00   After to check always that requirement still there [TS]

00:42:03   and it's really hard to strike that balance the biggest I can't you know the whole thing we're talking about if you [TS]

00:42:07   make it free for everybody [TS]

00:42:09   and nobody is ever motivated to do the pay thing you've just killed your service like that's the whole point they were [TS]

00:42:13   trying to make a service that was sustained by the people uses you have to trust you have to strike that perfect [TS]

00:42:17   balance and three that it gets people in the door [TS]

00:42:20   but the you know sort of like Dropbox has found I assume the balance for themselves which is yeah you can use Dropbox [TS]

00:42:25   for free until you reach a certain quota and enough people are going to reach that quota [TS]

00:42:28   and pay for it that it pays for all the freeloaders right [TS]

00:42:30   and that is really difficult to strike that balance making everybody pay on a service that is going to live [TS]

00:42:36   or die by the number of people who use it is really difficult. [TS]

00:42:40   Maybe they were fooled by the initial enthusiasm of an alternate services whatever [TS]

00:42:44   but everyone who joined quickly found out. [TS]

00:42:46   Well most people I know don't care about what they'll say but it is a doing to developers and their back over there [TS]

00:42:51   and what are so I guess I'm going to go back there too. [TS]

00:42:55   Yeah I like the invitation thing could have been you know throttling for a load or trying to build hype [TS]

00:43:01   or a combination of them a lot of big services of the G. [TS]

00:43:04   Mail was invite only in the beginning like that's not entirely crazy thing but it's all about timing and balance. [TS]

00:43:10   Did you do it for too long. [TS]

00:43:12   Is the bouncing correct all those people who found they can go to free all like those dedicated people like I use up [TS]

00:43:17   not that all the time but I can get by with a free tier. [TS]

00:43:20   Well that's bad like that [TS]

00:43:21   and the fact that you found it easy to get to the free beer like that is an incorrect bounce [TS]

00:43:25   but that point was probably too late anyway. [TS]

00:43:27   But I was thinking of the things they could do things they could have done a lot of people [TS]

00:43:32   and I think Marco's you blogged about this like focus that they seem to try a lot of different things [TS]

00:43:37   and a lot of people have said they were all over the place [TS]

00:43:40   but no one knew what they were they didn't concert anyone thing that's what I messed up on the other side of that coin [TS]

00:43:44   as well as they had tried to do one of those things the entire time we would've been saying you should try different [TS]

00:43:49   things you should try to file hosting maybe you could have been an A.P.I. [TS]

00:43:51   For application so I mean it all stems back to the same problem they did not find a way to get people into the service [TS]

00:43:57   and every other problem I have is like you know. [TS]

00:44:00   For all that of that may be but I don't know I mean at the same time like all these different things. [TS]

00:44:06   That was that was all effort that would like that was expended. [TS]

00:44:10   That was not trying to get people on the service it was trying to add value for Eagles already there to maybe in the [TS]

00:44:14   future maybe it's more people to sign up. But like every one of their major A.P.I. [TS]

00:44:20   Pushes every one of their major new products or [TS]

00:44:23   or as much of the service isn't the kind of thing like oh this will be great once more people are here [TS]

00:44:28   but that never came. [TS]

00:44:30   Well they were trying to get new customers like they say OK we can get people becoming is like Twitter. [TS]

00:44:34   Maybe we can get developers to use it as their back end kind of like some period of [TS]

00:44:38   or something like it was it was trying for another user base. [TS]

00:44:41   OK we can get enough regular people about it can we get enough developers of applications are we going to get enough of [TS]

00:44:45   them How about people who just want to host their files [TS]

00:44:47   and the thing that might have undone them is instead of doing the pivot thing where you could think this is where we're [TS]

00:44:52   going to go now. They never got rid of the old things. [TS]

00:44:54   They just added to them so it became a big long list of things that it did and that becomes difficult to support. [TS]

00:45:00   You know it's not as if they said OK what we were a Twitter like service [TS]

00:45:03   but now we're seeing here are two files in service of an hour and A.B.I. [TS]

00:45:07   Connecting thing like they did all those things at once [TS]

00:45:10   and to their credit engineering wise they seem to do a good job [TS]

00:45:12   and all the things like Man is very happy using them as an A.P.I. and A back end. [TS]

00:45:16   But again you got to you have to be able to show that you are sustainable or show that you get so many customers [TS]

00:45:25   and some V.C. [TS]

00:45:26   Is going to pour money down your throat forever until someone buys you out [TS]

00:45:29   and you nearing is one of the one least important things [TS]

00:45:32   when it comes to growing a social product like a look at My Space My Space You know it's easy to laugh at them now [TS]

00:45:38   but before Facebook was BIG My Space basically ruled the internet for a few years [TS]

00:45:42   and they had the worst technology in the universe powering that thing they still do [TS]

00:45:46   and it's like it is comical just how much in shambles that company always was my space has always been comically [TS]

00:45:54   dysfunctional before and after acquisition and you know their site was like held together by tape. [TS]

00:46:00   In glue and and yet it was the biggest social site on the web for a long time and still is no slouch. [TS]

00:46:07   And you know that you know the technology matters very very little [TS]

00:46:11   but matters for anything that is social is just the social network effect it's it's getting the people who you want to [TS]

00:46:17   talk to and reach on there [TS]

00:46:19   and you know there was there was never any hope for something that was paywall only for every single user to ever get [TS]

00:46:27   that big. You know if they were going to get big they should have had a free tier at the very beginning. [TS]

00:46:35   But that's hard like it like the reason they did imitations was probably not to build hype it was probably because they [TS]

00:46:40   were afraid of things like spam and abuse from bulk registrations which is a major problem it's hard to deal with. [TS]

00:46:46   But like that's that's the game like that's that's akin to you're signing up for if you want to have any kind of [TS]

00:46:52   socialization or have anything that requires you know strong network effect here [TS]

00:46:56   or the need to overcome the strong network effect. [TS]

00:46:58   So you know really what the I think what they should have done instead was had no social product at all [TS]

00:47:05   and focus purely on the developer A.P.I. [TS]

00:47:08   Stuff because then they have they have a lot fewer direct competitors [TS]

00:47:13   but even then the model of having the users pay instead of the developers is weird [TS]

00:47:19   and I think that I don't think that ever really had a chance that I thought that's credit I am the success they had [TS]

00:47:26   surprised me like [TS]

00:47:27   when they got real active helpers to make real app tonight clients instead of just like some random person doing it as [TS]

00:47:32   a lark you know like a bot thing like where. [TS]

00:47:36   I mean granted movies are used a lot of the work they had done for it we bought and everything [TS]

00:47:39   but you know they got actual attention from real developers [TS]

00:47:42   and they got some pretty darn high quality applications even someone's first application like those people hone their [TS]

00:47:47   after clients [TS]

00:47:48   and shape them up into you know applications that I would put up against any third party Twitter client you know [TS]

00:47:55   and some of them you know some of them weren't just like Tweet bipartisan about some of them a whole brand new outlook. [TS]

00:48:00   Patients out of whole cloth [TS]

00:48:01   and they were pretty darn good Granted there was prior art in terms of people it seem a Twitter applications were like [TS]

00:48:05   but I just think they managed to make something that was big enough to do that [TS]

00:48:08   and that was part of their goal like we're going to make an awesome platform for developers. [TS]

00:48:12   They did every part of that except the part where there's tons of customers [TS]

00:48:15   and they tried to make up for that by giving them a share of the money they were getting like. [TS]

00:48:18   It worked much better than I thought it would for longer than I thought it would [TS]

00:48:22   and so I give them credit for even achieving that level of access to it if you think about that you know who else has [TS]

00:48:29   tried that and been even remotely successful it is especially on something like a social network [TS]

00:48:34   and it's a tough sell so they they have nothing to be ashamed of in terms of that they had the guts to do this. [TS]

00:48:40   They made it happen and they got a reasonable level success. [TS]

00:48:43   They just didn't get over the hump and the just now they're sliding back down the hill. [TS]

00:48:47   Yeah agreed I mean you know there and you know I've talked to don't know if these are good people [TS]

00:48:51   and I I I I'm trying to you know be constructive here they I I don't think they're idiots they're I know they're not [TS]

00:48:58   idiots and I don't think they are I think they just they were trying something really really hard [TS]

00:49:06   and it did not work and you and I agree I'm it lasted longer [TS]

00:49:11   and got further than I thought it would i didn't even think it would get back to like I didn't think it would even make [TS]

00:49:15   their goal because it seemed pretty high at the time and they did and they blew right past it I mean and [TS]

00:49:21   and they let to last two years I mean I really would have guessed that either but I don't know [TS]

00:49:27   and I think now the way they're kind of you know winding it down. [TS]

00:49:33   I think they should just kill it because now it has nobody working on it [TS]

00:49:36   and then the user numbers are going to go down because now it's like a thing [TS]

00:49:40   and like it's almost like you know talk about it briefly I'm back to work this week. [TS]

00:49:47   Listen to that but you know it's a little weird it's like you're hanging out at a bar with your friends [TS]

00:49:53   and there are people filtering out for a while and now the owners just turn the lights on and left. [TS]

00:50:01   No with the lights on in his empty room like how long are you really going to stay there. [TS]

00:50:06   Somebody tweeted today that like if you don't like using something that doesn't have a full time people working on it [TS]

00:50:12   and you should trash half the application I with application to your phone make a difference because like obviously a [TS]

00:50:18   service is different than a bunch of bits on you but you know this is the problem. [TS]

00:50:22   All over like this is why people are wary about signing up for things or using applications [TS]

00:50:29   and that's why big you know big successful companies have some kind of advantage because you know it's like a fly by [TS]

00:50:34   night thing [TS]

00:50:34   and like well you know depending on the company like Apple Microsoft Google you figure if this thing goes away it will [TS]

00:50:43   be because the company went out of business. [TS]

00:50:45   It will because you know it could be because they change their mind or whatever [TS]

00:50:47   but you're not worried about the viability of the company because they have billions of dollars [TS]

00:50:51   and if you're going to give them at least a couple years before they go down the tubes right where things like this [TS]

00:50:55   it's all just you know how much do you believe in these scrappy group of people and how you know [TS]

00:51:01   and they made two years which is like a longer probably than some Google project so good on them. [TS]

00:51:07   So something Marco said a few minutes ago actually really made me think for a moment. [TS]

00:51:11   You had said something along the lines of Well if they screwed up having people there having the users pay for for [TS]

00:51:19   after net rather than having the developers pay [TS]

00:51:22   and it occurred to me that you could make a really legitimate argument that after net was further up the stack then a [TS]

00:51:28   lot of the things we're working with so if you look at the you know the lowest level we've got a physical machine that [TS]

00:51:35   say Marco owns for Instapaper or overcast or what have you that is colocated it's somebody's status center [TS]

00:51:42   and then you get a little less close to the metal [TS]

00:51:46   and you have a virtual machine that's still it's on these data center and so on and so forth so it's a shared resource. [TS]

00:51:50   Then you move up the stack a little more you have something like Heroku or Azure perhaps in the middle maybe [TS]

00:51:55   but something like that where you have sort of a platform as a service thing well that's. [TS]

00:52:00   What apps out there could've been I feel like it would be even further up the stack from like a Heroku where you have [TS]

00:52:06   this entire platform waiting for you [TS]

00:52:08   and it seems in retrospect it seems obvious to me now after hearing Marco say that the Dow would have been really [TS]

00:52:13   powerful for developers [TS]

00:52:14   and if the pricing wasn't god awful that would be a really really great way for a developer to get say the user [TS]

00:52:22   accounts set up easily [TS]

00:52:24   or you know data storage like you had mentioned there are so many things that happen that eventually end up doing [TS]

00:52:30   or ends up doing I don't know I don't know if I should use past tense or not [TS]

00:52:33   but anyway there's so much that they do that as someone who has no interest in running his own servers like myself that [TS]

00:52:40   is something that's very powerful I think man touched on this [TS]

00:52:43   and I keep getting reminded of I think as Brent Simmons had posted about hey why don't we have an A.P.I. [TS]

00:52:49   Kind of like this I think his point was a little bit different but it's a similar idea [TS]

00:52:54   and it really could be a wonderful thing if you don't want to go through the hassle [TS]

00:52:58   and effort of completely rolling your own stuff. Yeah totally I mean that's and I think part of the problem with that. [TS]

00:53:05   You know after the name and domain started out as something else and then Dalton [TS]

00:53:13   and company kind of merged in with this idea you know [TS]

00:53:17   when Twitter started being a dick they sort of merging them with this and kind of kind of took over [TS]

00:53:22   and you know became something else because it was a new cool thing that there was a need for. [TS]

00:53:27   And then as they ran after net they kept doing more [TS]

00:53:31   and more of those kind of things like hey let's take this this thing [TS]

00:53:34   and add this other thing to it will end of this other kind of prizes other kind of service [TS]

00:53:38   and keep with ads on ads on and I think that lack of focus really hurt them a lot [TS]

00:53:44   but I think if they if they would have skipped that first there that second step [TS]

00:53:48   but they would have skipped the step of let's make this into a Twitter alternative you know [TS]

00:53:53   or let's make this into a platform that could power a Twitter alternative. Please don't email me. You know if. [TS]

00:54:00   I would have skipped that [TS]

00:54:01   and gone directly from the old app developer services company into what you just described like like a high level [TS]

00:54:08   developer back end services company where the developers would pay them to post their back ends on this infrastructure [TS]

00:54:17   and users would never have to know about it just the same way users don't know don't know if your back end is on you [TS]

00:54:22   know eight of us or parse or Microsoft Azure like they don't like. [TS]

00:54:26   Users don't need to see that it's an implementation detail [TS]

00:54:29   and you the application developer would do your own you know user management in the sense that like you would say I [TS]

00:54:35   write this you know create a user [TS]

00:54:37   and you know here's here's an email password you know give me a user account for this [TS]

00:54:41   and then he with every call you make there right. Humidifiers for user ID X.Y.Z. Like that for my application. [TS]

00:54:47   Like that's that's a level up [TS]

00:54:49   and I think that's a probably better business to be in given all the services they were building on top of it like it [TS]

00:54:55   seems like they would've been better off targeting only developers and making the developers pay [TS]

00:55:00   and making all these great services they added to it just just developed services really boring though. [TS]

00:55:09   There are services out there like I mentioned same period [TS]

00:55:11   but is also well know that one before Game Center came out that all the game high scores [TS]

00:55:15   and later boards about that called Yeah I know everyone I always had to say no to it. [TS]

00:55:20   Yeah whatever about it but I went [TS]

00:55:22   and you know as you are of course one of my all sorts of all sorts of services that are like this that are essentially [TS]

00:55:27   offering alternatives to their alternatives to i Cloud [TS]

00:55:29   or trust accorded of course although it has the i Cloud don't have the advantage of the i Cloud doesn't that your users [TS]

00:55:34   are probably already logged in Open Feint was the game. [TS]

00:55:37   Yeah but that's you know [TS]

00:55:39   and some carriers like for for you know a sort of alternative the core data simpler kind of document data storage [TS]

00:55:44   and apt and was even more general like. [TS]

00:55:47   But the thing is I don't know any of those services are like burning up the charts in those companies are being wildly [TS]

00:55:51   successful at the very least apt [TS]

00:55:53   and that got to do something different which was this weird Twitter like thing they got to run the experiment of. [TS]

00:56:00   How does two fifty six characters feel compared to one forty. My my answer to that is it feels pretty good. [TS]

00:56:07   How I got I was what it was like that. [TS]

00:56:09   What about Arab embedded in the answer that was it's really hard to clients support it [TS]

00:56:13   but it's kind of a good idea in theory. You know the conversation threading Lots of all the experiments they ran. [TS]

00:56:18   I mean if Twitter wasn't a bunch of bots they would use it as like hey these guys did all the research for us by trying [TS]

00:56:24   to a bunch of crazy things and some work and some don't [TS]

00:56:25   but cleared her to care about any of this stuff anymore unfortunately [TS]

00:56:28   but if they did after that they did a good service that I think the the user goodwill to people who did enjoy a net [TS]

00:56:35   and didn't join the community that was there [TS]

00:56:36   and everything is probably going to have a more lasting impact on all the experiments there [TS]

00:56:41   and more lasting impact than if they had just become another company in line with those other companies that I [TS]

00:56:46   mentioned that I mean and I don't know how those companies are doing well maybe they're doing fabulously well [TS]

00:56:50   and I just don't know about it but it seems like there's a whole bunch of them [TS]

00:56:54   and every once in a while one of the big dogs comes [TS]

00:56:56   and squish them like I don't know how one fan is doing now to game centers out maybe they're doing great I don't know [TS]

00:57:00   but like Azure and stuff Microsoft has the invention of like you know after that would have to pay you know S three [TS]

00:57:07   or a WS arise or something because you know there are a reseller of other services [TS]

00:57:11   or software on top of them whereas Microsoft itself or Amazon itself [TS]

00:57:15   or Apple itself doesn't have that extra margin in the middle to give to some other party in the chain to they're always [TS]

00:57:20   going to be joined price and people own platforms or is going to be jump from integration [TS]

00:57:24   and that's a tough business to be in so maybe they would still be in business if they had chose that model [TS]

00:57:29   but I don't think it's a recipe for runaway success. [TS]

00:57:32   I want to know [TS]

00:57:33   but that I mean you know they would be a value added provider you know if they would have this this great system built [TS]

00:57:39   on top of raw hardware like if you look at a service like her to the markup is insane I mean there's tons of profit to [TS]

00:57:49   be made there by by adding convenience [TS]

00:57:51   and by building in functionality that developers want to write themselves like that [TS]

00:57:55   but they're never going to do like they don't they would have to pay Amazon if they use easy to to deploy. [TS]

00:58:00   They would have to pay you know doesn't hurt to do that. [TS]

00:58:02   But yeah I almost say Iraq was not part of the charity like I'm saying you're always going to some There's always going [TS]

00:58:08   to be someone who can offer the same service for cheaper [TS]

00:58:10   or the same service so that our platform integration so it's a tough business to be end like you're always kind of [TS]

00:58:14   you're trying to find a little area that someone isn't covering like Open Feint probably thought it was a great Apple [TS]

00:58:19   never been waiting with games were all set with and they would do well for a while and then games [TS]

00:58:22   and it comes which sucks and I hate but it really took the wind out of their sails. [TS]

00:58:28   Yeah I mean I suppose it is a harder business but hitting is harder than a paid Social Network. [TS]

00:58:31   Well I mean you know it's a risk reward like they went for the riskier play initially that had the bigger potential [TS]

00:58:36   upside [TS]

00:58:37   and I guess that I think the things they did with that are more interesting experiments than if they had you know tried [TS]

00:58:41   to sell services because they [TS]

00:58:43   and maybe do it on something more interesting they have it seems like more of the same like a wee wee over something [TS]

00:58:47   similar to these other companies but with different services [TS]

00:58:50   or whatever whereas no one tried to make Well no one made it as successful a sort of Twitter like application of that I [TS]

00:58:56   think was the other one tent [TS]

00:58:58   and used to be called dentists you know you get a change into something else anyway like they had a federated system [TS]

00:59:03   or maybe you know that's the thing about leaving the thing running. [TS]

00:59:07   I think tend to still running because it's like not centralized and you know it's called cupcake now [TS]

00:59:12   or whatever like you know don't never die because you'd never lived right [TS]

00:59:16   and that after that if it just limps along for years like sleeping [TS]

00:59:21   and who knows it could be like Irish people forget about it until you realize oh yeah are still there [TS]

00:59:25   and it still works and so those sort of supposed to do. [TS]

00:59:27   And especially if they are open source everything [TS]

00:59:30   but the particle in technology could rise again in the distant future. Stranger things have happened. [TS]

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01:00:56   So let's talk a little more thing tonight. [TS]

01:00:58   And this actually broke before the last episode maybe even the data we recorded Lesseps I wouldn't have time to talk [TS]

01:01:04   about it. And our friend Alan Pike wrote about how in a preview release of chrome there they've removed the U.R.L. [TS]

01:01:16   Bar or the Omni bar or whatever you call it. [TS]

01:01:19   And so we'll put the link in the show notes and basically where currently you have a full bore U.R.L. [TS]

01:01:26   and You know highlight the top level domain and so on so that it highlights like Amazon dot com for example. [TS]

01:01:33   Well now what it would be is it would show that you're on Amazon dot com and that's it. [TS]

01:01:38   And then everything else is just a search google box and the internet seems to be really upset about this [TS]

01:01:47   and I go on to a couple of conversations on Twitter with a couple of people about this [TS]

01:01:51   and people who are really fired up and really angry about it and not Alan Allen seems to be kind of violent about it. [TS]

01:02:00   What I recollect from reading this but anyways I I well I don't like it. [TS]

01:02:05   Personally I'm not so sure this is such a terrible idea and I'm curious to hear what you think about it. [TS]

01:02:13   I thought come up and I beta on the beta channel and immediately did I should let us first [TS]

01:02:20   but now I've learned that by the time something shows in the beta channel there are a thousand web pages explaining how [TS]

01:02:25   to turn off he just got that chrome restore address bar and like the number one hit is I'm telling you how to do it [TS]

01:02:32   but at this point I just not go immediately to chrome. [TS]

01:02:34   Cohen double slash flags and find the little setting that turns it off and do relaunch and restart it then [TS]

01:02:39   but the reason I had to restart is no web developer I need to see the address bar like it's kind of important to see [TS]

01:02:45   that and I'm assuming that they will always include the feature to turn on because some people are with DOS [TS]

01:02:50   but most people are not and that's where we get into like is it a good idea to hide this to this degree [TS]

01:02:55   and I'm not so sure I like not because I think oh you always have to show the address [TS]

01:02:59   and people like I don't think people care about the others but I don't think people ever even look at it [TS]

01:03:04   and I don't like the idea of people fishing with the things with a big long username with an ad using it looks like the [TS]

01:03:10   host name of people in their apple dot com they're not [TS]

01:03:12   and that's why Evy certificates are as a foul are good because they put the little green thing like there's a lot of [TS]

01:03:16   important progress we should make in terms of the U.I. [TS]

01:03:19   or Highlighting the parts that are important to people and making it not be free form text [TS]

01:03:25   but by the same token the web works on your rails and you may not need to expose all the nitty gritty details [TS]

01:03:32   but there needs to be something up there that now looks like a U.R.L. [TS]

01:03:37   Necessarily but that shows all the parts of the U.R.L. Shows through in all their glory. Because your L. [TS]

01:03:45   Design and you know and your Alice is a thing you can copy and paste out of an area [TS]

01:03:50   and send around I think is still an important part of the web. Like I mean it could work without it. [TS]

01:03:56   I can see a scenario where you have all the same features you don't need to swipe. [TS]

01:04:00   Some texting copy and paste and you can just use a sharing link [TS]

01:04:02   and say copy your relatives didn't journey a mailman when you paste into the email it could look different [TS]

01:04:06   and you never need to see those parts [TS]

01:04:08   but I think the paddlings resistance for this thing that we have like your L's are not going away [TS]

01:04:12   and people are going to want to share them over text medium's so they have to exist in some form so I'm all for [TS]

01:04:19   stopping all the things that are bad that people do with the orals and pinning down different parts of it [TS]

01:04:24   but I still think you have to be able to deal with it as text. [TS]

01:04:27   Even users who don't know or care what it is because even those people I want to send email about it at some point. [TS]

01:04:33   Yeah but there's a problem I have with what you're saying is I don't see any need to look at the full U.R.L. [TS]

01:04:39   Outside of what I'm trying to share it [TS]

01:04:42   and you know people in the chat are pointing out this is the behavior that Chrome is having it will have theoretically [TS]

01:04:49   is exactly how Safari works I was seven today. [TS]

01:04:52   So if you look at a Web site all you see at the top is the is the whole same time you know in so caseless dot com for [TS]

01:04:59   example and that's it and it's something you tap in your elbow [TS]

01:05:03   or if you go to share that you actually see the rest of the U.R.L. [TS]

01:05:08   In what I'm saying is I don't think there even needs to necessarily be a cap in the your L.. [TS]

01:05:13   Bar to see the rest of your L. The only time I think an average person would need to see the U.R.L. [TS]

01:05:18   Is just like you said John in like a share sheet or something to that effect. [TS]

01:05:22   Web developers or developers in general absolutely agree with you that they were going to want to see it. [TS]

01:05:27   But but your average user I just don't think it's relevant [TS]

01:05:30   and additionally from anecdotal experience I can't think of anyone other than my dad who's pretty good who would ever. [TS]

01:05:40   type in your L. Most people I know just go to google for what they want. [TS]

01:05:43   Yeah like I'm not saying it has to remain plain text [TS]

01:05:46   and that in the IO situation obviously for space constraints I think the i Pad I think I remember a guy with an i Pad [TS]

01:05:52   app like but I mean on the phone it makes perfect sense like you know have room to show us stuff [TS]

01:05:57   but I am not saying you need to show it is full bore text. [TS]

01:06:00   There are portions of it like I would like you know like sometimes they have something that ends up being Rotex for the [TS]

01:06:04   show for example like a comma separated list [TS]

01:06:06   but the show does little capsule bubbles because the theory is that people can deal with those capsule bustle bubbles [TS]

01:06:12   individually instead of you know a behind the scenes is just comma separated text you talk about like email. [TS]

01:06:16   Yeah like in the same way that they do with the VS sell certificates where there they show the big green boxes as Apple [TS]

01:06:22   dot com so you can be sure it's from Apple dot com like by all means and turn the address into a series of bits of U.I. [TS]

01:06:29   but I think you'd still want people to be able to like back up one level in the hierarchy like you can by command [TS]

01:06:35   clicking the title bar in Safari I don't want people to be afraid I don't want to become sort of like the thing that [TS]

01:06:42   you don't touch I don't want people to be afraid to go up there and like backspace [TS]

01:06:46   or you know that it's not it's not for the average person [TS]

01:06:50   but like for regular people like there's no reason to shut out more people people who are currently comfortable messing [TS]

01:06:55   with the address bar who are just not borderline like me down like this will scare them away [TS]

01:06:59   and I think that reason reducing the pool of people who care about you or else [TS]

01:07:04   and you know that way lies the madness of just you [TS]

01:07:08   or elles as generated by terrible web content generators in the early ninety's like Front Page [TS]

01:07:14   or else of the original original What is it the original city desk Urals member those narco zeroes like you were all [TS]

01:07:23   designed as part of the web and yes very few users ever touch it [TS]

01:07:27   but I don't think it's worth long like locking it down more like they're already ignoring it locking it down more [TS]

01:07:32   doesn't help them a cycle previously they were screwing things up no they weren't they don't even know the thing is up [TS]

01:07:36   there like those people can hide that if they want right. [TS]

01:07:39   But if you're going to have it's visible at all I would like you to get rid of the bad things that are about the [TS]

01:07:45   current You shouldn't you shouldn't be able to fish people with it it should be you know it should be parsed out [TS]

01:07:50   or made into some kind of U.I. [TS]

01:07:51   but I would like to strike a balance that still allows it to be sort of piecemeal editable [TS]

01:07:56   and selectable manipulable other people who do care about the art. Right people don't care. [TS]

01:08:00   The Arabs just hide it completely. I don't even include a token for it or anything just like that. [TS]

01:08:05   Make it you know like it like it is and I want to make a mess. [TS]

01:08:08   Make that the fault of the you want to it's just that I think there's no reason to. [TS]

01:08:13   There's no reason to scare away the people who are on the borderline now who just tweak it a little bit you know [TS]

01:08:17   because I think I think that is that is a reasonable interface like we don't want people to use a command line [TS]

01:08:23   or text or whatever [TS]

01:08:24   but I think our history with the GO has shown that while the glue is vastly superior for almost all things a couple of [TS]

01:08:29   things are actually a sort of text just think of all the email clients let you start typing in a two address [TS]

01:08:35   and then we like autocomplete [TS]

01:08:36   and turn into a little token that is a text interface with augmentation rather than saying oh every time you want to [TS]

01:08:43   send to somebody you have to open up the widget and scroll through and find the person or something like that. [TS]

01:08:48   These hybrid interfaces that allow you to type free form text [TS]

01:08:52   and also give you you know affordance is to quickly turn that into is sort of an immutable capsule so you're not afraid [TS]

01:08:59   you're going to screw it up or whatever. [TS]

01:09:01   That type of design for the address bar seems appropriate in the same way that the text fields for you to see see the [TS]

01:09:08   subject in a mail client Don't go away. [TS]

01:09:10   We just make really good versions of those [TS]

01:09:12   and I think that's what the address bar should be is a really good version of a place where people seem manipulate [TS]

01:09:18   techs who care about and if you know care about it. Yeah just hide it. [TS]

01:09:23   Yeah I mean it's it's a hard problem because we you know we as geeks recognize the significance of your L's [TS]

01:09:30   and the power of your L's But you know in reality in real world use they are a significant usability problem [TS]

01:09:37   and they're very confusing to people and people you know what. [TS]

01:09:42   What chrome did in this in this beta [TS]

01:09:44   and I've heard from various you know various people on Twitter said like this is this is probably not going to stick [TS]

01:09:50   around. But it was it was an experiment but we'll see. [TS]

01:09:54   I better get there eventually because it does benefit Google's tremendously but I think. [TS]

01:10:00   It's it's it's hard for us to accept but this is how people use the Internet [TS]

01:10:05   and not just like super novices like almost everyone. [TS]

01:10:10   And there's lots of problems if you or els like security and you know the phishing attempts and stuff like that [TS]

01:10:14   but the fact is showing little lock icon for S.S.L. [TS]

01:10:18   Pages showing the big green bar for Evie A sells for because of the company name in it telling people to look for you [TS]

01:10:23   know make sure you're on peep out dot com before you type in your Pay Pal password. The fact is it doesn't work. [TS]

01:10:31   Most people don't check for those things they're you know in practice. [TS]

01:10:35   But these efforts really are not worth a whole lot you know we think they're effective to us they make sense as nerds [TS]

01:10:42   but the vast majority of people don't even look at the stuff they don't pay attention to your own security they don't [TS]

01:10:48   they can't tell if there aren't people arrive it looks like Pay Pal It is Pay Pal to them stuff like that like it's [TS]

01:10:53   really hard it's really hard to meaningfully improve your L. [TS]

01:10:58   Security you know and it's all it's all down to just actual human nature and human behavior [TS]

01:11:04   and there's not a lot we can do about that. [TS]

01:11:06   You want to be able to tell them like it people won't do the right thing [TS]

01:11:10   but in the case where someone is asking I want to do the right thing tell me what the right thing is if you can easily [TS]

01:11:15   describe it to them that's a problem. [TS]

01:11:17   So I think at the very least of the bar should be if someone is on the phone with you [TS]

01:11:21   and saying I can't tell if I'm on Pay Pal dot com if you know a browser using you should be able to tell them something [TS]

01:11:26   quickly instead of telling them. [TS]

01:11:28   Grohl really far right in the address bar [TS]

01:11:31   and make sure there's no ad sign because that's a just a gigantic username that begins a pain pill dot com [TS]

01:11:36   or something you know I mean like if you could tell them look at the big green thing to say Pay Pal dot com And in the [TS]

01:11:42   chrome U.I. Like that's not nothing right. [TS]

01:11:46   I mean getting back to how this is good for Google though I think that's one of the dangers of this is that yeah people [TS]

01:11:52   use the internet that way but for example you see a billboard with your hours something [TS]

01:11:56   and imagine with Google you know being evil in the future or saying even. If you type in H.T.T.P. [TS]

01:12:01   Gone slash last triple the apple dot com We will do something different [TS]

01:12:04   or that will never take you to Apple dot com Even if you saw that in the magazine ad even if you saw it on a billboard. [TS]

01:12:09   Everything is a Google search and we control like suddenly we control a huge portion of the Internet. [TS]

01:12:13   The say chrome becomes way more popular like you don't want to give the browser vendor so much control [TS]

01:12:19   and there are situations where any human beings will have to deal with the orals in a non-electronic form [TS]

01:12:24   and I don't want to scan a Q.R. Code right. So I like this paper. [TS]

01:12:29   Paper is not going to go away [TS]

01:12:31   and I would be I wouldn't like a situation where no matter what anyone types nothing it does a Google search because [TS]

01:12:36   that gives too much control to Google or any any browser vendor. [TS]

01:12:41   I think you need to to strike a balance maybe the current thing is the right balance. [TS]

01:12:44   I haven't I didn't use it I merely turned it off like maybe maybe that is the bounce until recently [TS]

01:12:49   when the chairman saying is it more like back to the way I'm described as just that it's something to watch for. [TS]

01:12:55   You don't want to make everything into a search because then whoever you choose to search vendor is like your gateway [TS]

01:13:00   to the entire Internet. [TS]

01:13:01   But unfortunately that is how most people use the Internet anyway right [TS]

01:13:06   and that's exactly what I'm driving at is that one. [TS]

01:13:10   Why stand on tradition why not embrace the fact that it from from what I can tell anyone who wants to find out the [TS]

01:13:18   website's address. [TS]

01:13:20   They're not going to think to type in Facebook dot com They're going to just type in Facebook to Google [TS]

01:13:24   or have a bookmark perhaps and that's how they're going to get there so let's just embrace the fact that the U.R.L. [TS]

01:13:29   Doesn't really mean much to anyone but nerds. But on subsequent visits if you type a P.P. [TS]

01:13:33   A complete battle dot com on your return doesn't do Google's [TS]

01:13:36   or Travel dot com takes you right apple dot com I see my parents do this all the time like I mean maybe again if they [TS]

01:13:43   change or complete not to behave that way but if you visit a site frequently [TS]

01:13:46   and you start to type something people will figure out that like oh if I just hit return that well you won't go through [TS]

01:13:52   google search it will because you go to about COM constantly or google dot com [TS]

01:13:56   or you know whatever your local newspapers website is of ever it will be the first. A complete completion. [TS]

01:14:00   Not the Google search for it right. [TS]

01:14:02   If you're going to some random place you just type some a bunch of stuff then yeah you'll do a search [TS]

01:14:06   but if it matches a dot com That's usually the top thing in the result [TS]

01:14:10   and I think people fine like that better than going to Google and clicking the top result. [TS]

01:14:14   I think you'll like it saying you know they want to go Denver Post at the end [TS]

01:14:18   and it already has highlighted intervals dot com And every turn they would be annoyed if it went to Google. [TS]

01:14:22   Even at the top it was then a rose dot com that is going to go to Denver Post right [TS]

01:14:26   and I think bookmarks nobody uses them anymore. [TS]

01:14:28   Bookmark bar thing that people ever figure out how to configure them [TS]

01:14:31   or someone configure them for them they use that a lot. [TS]

01:14:34   I think there is still a desire to go immediately where they want to go without going through a search. [TS]

01:14:37   When people know where they want to go. Yeah that's true but why couldn't you. [TS]

01:14:43   In this on the bar Why couldn't you match against page titles rather than you [TS]

01:14:48   or else nobody knows of the titles of pages are half of the holes are probably the same set of rules I don't know the [TS]

01:14:53   titles are all spammed up with keyword crap anyway. Breaking News World News. [TS]

01:14:57   That's true as well but I mean if you're looking for Apple [TS]

01:15:00   and you've been to Apple dot com In the past I'm assuming that the title on Apple's landing page is something that says [TS]

01:15:07   Apple Inc or whatever. [TS]

01:15:09   I mean well the top level domain things that we talked about last about the last show have not come through [TS]

01:15:14   and wiped out all sanity in domain names. [TS]

01:15:16   The currency is still a cache an association with like something dot com People know what dot com is [TS]

01:15:23   and the reason they know about it is because they've been seeing in the address bar [TS]

01:15:26   and it is a way something to hang your hat on. [TS]

01:15:28   You know if someone says oh you can't you know you should check out blah blah blah dot com You know it's something you [TS]

01:15:33   should go home and type in your web browsing you know what distinguishes it as like this is the Web site. [TS]

01:15:38   Luckily we've gotten rid of the Triple W. More or less even K.C. [TS]

01:15:41   but There's still something to commit not just like reading up billboards but communicating with friends [TS]

01:15:49   or whatever you don't want to tell someone I just typed this into your thing I'm sure it'll be the number one result if [TS]

01:15:54   you know it's like go to Netflix dot com and you can sign up for Netflix. What about the Hell's Netflix dot com it. [TS]

01:16:00   When you type in an address bar the results to a horse and they don't know the details [TS]

01:16:03   but they know like that's different than saying if you just search for Netflix you'll find it which is also true [TS]

01:16:07   but communicating in dot coms with each other advertising them and telling other people about them. [TS]

01:16:14   I still think there is value in that. Our final sponsor this week is new relic going to new relic dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

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01:17:37   For a thirty day free trial. [TS]

01:17:41   So I open sourced my blogging engine during the time between the last episode [TS]

01:17:46   and today does the name of your blogging engine and then lists now. Wow she's called Camel analysts. [TS]

01:17:54   Now just camel which I still don't know how to pronounce the word right but it's a combination my first and. [TS]

01:18:00   All names port and something or other. John it's French I think. [TS]

01:18:04   Well portmanteau that we're talking about I don't know how to pronounce it either I think that's it. [TS]

01:18:07   Well thank you thank you for taking the fall for me this week. [TS]

01:18:10   Anyways so there's not really that much to be said here and I'm actually going to not say much like usually [TS]

01:18:17   but I did open source that it's on get hub and I already got a poll request which I accepted which was a one liner [TS]

01:18:23   but it was a one liner that I didn't think to include myself which was to set the content type for the R. Says feed. [TS]

01:18:30   But [TS]

01:18:31   but now it's been an interesting experience that it was very it was very stressful the thought of open sourcing it as a [TS]

01:18:37   kind of wanted to [TS]

01:18:38   but I was so scared that by doing so everyone will realize that I don't really know anything about node or express [TS]

01:18:46   and I just kind of hacked this together [TS]

01:18:48   and it's held together in the same way that My Space was as we were talking about earlier. [TS]

01:18:54   But nobody's really come out of the woodwork to say that I'm completely off the reservation which is good [TS]

01:18:59   and granted everyone's code does suck in some way shape or form but [TS]

01:19:04   but no it's been pretty quiet I'd like having it up there that now the biggest home I have is that I feel like it's [TS]

01:19:09   feature complete I don't feel like I really want to add anything I've since since last episode I added my loose [TS]

01:19:15   pagination which you can't see because I'm posted enough on my site yet but. [TS]

01:19:21   But now that it's now I'm like really into it really excited about it but I don't have anything else to do. [TS]

01:19:27   Well I guess any new project you tweeted about like that the line counselor was like four hundred lines of code [TS]

01:19:33   but it was hearing all of the stats but it let me run it real quick it's going to take me a second [TS]

01:19:37   but what I tweeted was that I had roughly four hundred five lines trying to get there right now on. [TS]

01:19:47   I had roughly four hundred lines of code that I had written with C. Clock camel So let's see. [TS]

01:19:54   OK so four hundred forty lines of code for me right now that I wrote myself. Now I'm going to look at the new modules. [TS]

01:20:02   So all the third party libraries that I imported [TS]

01:20:04   and it is nine hundred fifty six unique files ninety four thousand five hundred eighty lines of kind of how I feel less [TS]

01:20:13   bad about my ridiculous that a constant blogging thing because I was born in lines of code [TS]

01:20:17   and it's like I don't have four hundred lines of code in any single file I could [TS]

01:20:22   but then you know in in the pro world like I'm on the prowl but in my world I [TS]

01:20:26   and I like writing frameworks I like Marco I have this problem I like writing tools I like writing frameworks are not [TS]

01:20:32   going to use someone else's framework and then a first step in writing [TS]

01:20:34   and making a blog is first write a framework for making web occasions that I can read a blog using the framework. [TS]

01:20:40   Third you know like and so I have a tremendous number of lines but I have way less than ninety five thousand. [TS]

01:20:46   You know I was actually made my own and probably going to make your object systems I'm in my own object system [TS]

01:20:51   and use that objects is really serious. What a great language. [TS]

01:20:54   Yeah that's fantastic Yeah that definitely the best language of all the moronically which is all you can talk mature [TS]

01:21:00   javascript the javascript you're making your own object system too so let's not throw stones here [TS]

01:21:06   but we can make a class big system out of this prototype bassist amongst Anyway the amazing thing is that P.H.P. [TS]

01:21:12   Actually has a really good object system. It's probably the best between these three languages. [TS]

01:21:17   Well not to go on a sidebar the thing about products like the ability to build your own objects means that people keep [TS]

01:21:23   making your logic systems in Perl and it is allowed us to have five thousand different objects systems [TS]

01:21:28   and sort of you know evolutionary kind of lets that converge on something that's good to the bad ones go off and die [TS]

01:21:34   and we get new ones whereas if you have an object system built into a language and that's the only way you can do it. [TS]

01:21:39   If that object has them is bad or becomes bad in the future you have no choice [TS]

01:21:43   but to move in a language with Perl it's like whoa throw away that one was crap you make a new one and go again [TS]

01:21:47   and again and so it is a little test tube for different not a different experiment [TS]

01:21:53   and a lot of the experiments that have been done in provider of will lead to Perl six [TS]

01:21:56   but anyway I feel better about my giant codebase. Because it is still way US lines that all those no modules. [TS]

01:22:04   Even though I happened to write all of them because you know it is likely remarked Well in so on the one side I tweeted [TS]

01:22:10   it expects Pressley because I thought it was remarkable. [TS]

01:22:14   It was both remarkable that it took only four hundred fifty lines to write what I consider to be a full featured blog [TS]

01:22:21   engine at least for for the needs that I have [TS]

01:22:23   but it's also remarkable that I'm leveraging basically a hundred thousand lines of other people's code in order to get [TS]

01:22:29   there. [TS]

01:22:29   And on the one side I would tell you that that is a completely terrible idea to use that much code do you have no [TS]

01:22:37   control over and granted it's all open source but I don't have. I don't intend to to open up any of that source. [TS]

01:22:43   But on this side of the coin most of this code especially note the node community seems to be very into testing. [TS]

01:22:50   Let's show how to what the test coverage is how many of the tests are passing as of right now. [TS]

01:22:55   And so because of that I would argue that using all of this code is like how Marco talks about using my sequel because [TS]

01:23:02   he's not the biggest user of my sequel [TS]

01:23:04   and my sequels been proven it's been tested a million zillion people have used it and we know it's solid [TS]

01:23:09   and maybe that's not true of every package that I've chosen [TS]

01:23:12   but nevertheless I got to assume that most of them are pretty well tested pretty robust [TS]

01:23:17   and I really shouldn't have to worry about them so like I said half of me is freaking out about using a hundred [TS]

01:23:23   thousand lines of other people's code [TS]

01:23:24   but the other half means like well actually it's probably for the best that I don't roll my own on all that stuff. [TS]

01:23:29   Now you're supposed to be doing that everyone is using that. [TS]

01:23:32   That's not even the beginning of the count of number of lines of other people's code using their own toboggan as a [TS]

01:23:36   targeting works like on the same thing as us like you know in fact I would say that's a good measure of the health of [TS]

01:23:43   the javascript ecosystem is like you only had to write the code that was relevant to the thing you were trying to make. [TS]

01:23:49   Yeah I think everything else you could use a library that was reasonably well known that you didn't have to like you [TS]

01:23:55   know do hunting one hundred around for something. There was something suitable for your needs. [TS]

01:24:00   Like it was a reason we all supported so I deserve all good things I was just you know [TS]

01:24:05   when you had said it was four hundred lines of code I was like wow I'm a really getting a lot more Democrat less lines [TS]

01:24:09   of code [TS]

01:24:10   but then at the top of your thing you have a thousand require statements like that I make sense some of these libraries [TS]

01:24:16   I recognize it's not eight thousand how many years [TS]

01:24:19   and it's like tennis you know I get a comment for static strong language because I put it in air quotes here. [TS]

01:24:27   What would you relax. [TS]

01:24:29   Thanks what two or three sponsors this week Bigloo new reality and nature box and we will see you next week. [TS]

01:24:39   Now to be thin. It was accidental and accidental. [TS]

01:24:49   John and you are now getting access to that list [TS]

01:25:15   and we talk about the format of your flower box comments here to do you know have you not decided how you're going to [TS]

01:25:45   handle things and Javascript is clearly evened out the job is good naming conventions of capitalization [TS]

01:25:49   but the little box thing of the misshapen throne [TS]

01:25:53   but is that a formal use in C C four sponsored Is that a special thing that you may just read I was gripped. I'm. [TS]

01:26:00   After I've done it occasionally in the past I did it for Joe So in C. [TS]

01:26:03   Sharp I would use regions which basically is called code folding. [TS]

01:26:08   Same way that you would use pragma is in a jet to see [TS]

01:26:11   and that's what I would do there's Well little bit less cold so to call it God I can pronounce that code faulting in [TS]

01:26:17   Objective C. In more about the dropdown at the top of the editor but anyways that's right that's right. [TS]

01:26:23   Integration right is not a feature of the language you're just. Yes yes yes exactly what you just said. [TS]

01:26:27   But for this you know it's four hundred fifty lines [TS]

01:26:30   and I just wanted something that would catch my eye as I'm scrolling down the file [TS]

01:26:34   and so I thought a big three line comment would do the trick. Hideous troll would you have done like that. [TS]

01:26:41   Can we count the way this is bad maybe the flower box or my coding. [TS]

01:26:46   No the flower box are OK so it's not symmetrical because you've got the beginning end of the comments like at angles to [TS]

01:26:52   each other upper left lower right so right away it's all the shape the sides of the box because of the way the font [TS]

01:26:59   spacing is a giant gaps in the side but really tight things on the top right and then inside it you have some text. [TS]

01:27:06   It's all caps I get shouting at me it's it [TS]

01:27:09   and the with the day to come to know is like sixty I don't even know I just randomly is wide enough it's sufficiently [TS]

01:27:15   wide it's randomly sized I give them down to this. [TS]

01:27:19   This format for writing comment so I will I really think we have to see or could I do too. [TS]

01:27:24   Has the world ever seen your code in this time this time the stuff on SCI pedophilia feel free to go look at and laugh. [TS]

01:27:31   Anything recent though. [TS]

01:27:34   I mean like I update the things on the van frequently So like if you look at the date will be like two thousand [TS]

01:27:40   thirteen two thousand and fourteen but the vast majority of the code was written a long time. [TS]

01:27:43   That's not why it's hideous like it's just I mean if you look at what it does it's crazy you know. [TS]

01:27:47   I mean coat of ridge they were in the ninety's like so you know I put it up against anyone else's go they were in the [TS]

01:27:53   ninety's but I look at it now and it's very bad but aesthetically and formatting wise I'm very particular. [TS]

01:28:00   About that I like my you know I like my glow signs to line up in [TS]

01:28:03   when there's a bunch of assignments with each other I'm very sensitive of the formatting of comments so they look nice [TS]

01:28:09   and don't add visual noise and I get upset when there is no sane way to indent stuff with spyware [TS]

01:28:15   or go insane with Objective C. Because sometimes it's like look this is not going to work out for anybody. [TS]

01:28:20   Just like these are really sure knew the really long and no matter how you ended up it looks weird yeah it is. [TS]

01:28:25   Is tougher than if you're if you're like a whitespace formatting purist. [TS]

01:28:29   Good to see you basically has no standard that's good that's actually useful. Like I try to which came in R.C. [TS]

01:28:38   Style into it which does not work gracefully but it works well enough for me. [TS]

01:28:43   It's weird you had some similar problems in that there are some constructs that are just always ugly [TS]

01:28:49   and like there's no there's no system for formatting them all you know you can see [TS]

01:28:55   and simpler languages just have nicer rules especially like with the [TS]

01:28:59   when the pieces you're moving around are of similar size whereas if you're in a language for the size these things can [TS]

01:29:04   vary wildly like really long class names and really sharp surnames and really short class names as just [TS]

01:29:11   and square brackets versus Curly's versus per ends [TS]

01:29:14   and just no decision works that I get upset about that I like my code to be aesthetically guys who want to use Python [TS]

01:29:20   isn't. [TS]

01:29:21   Isn't it part of the language to learn everything and have underscores in front of [TS]

01:29:25   and it will be stabbing me in the eyes all the time. [TS]

01:29:28   Kareen awesome double underscore as before [TS]

01:29:31   and after that will show this is a special method with meaning to the language. [TS]

01:29:38   Well even the funny thing about this code. Mike code in camel is that I tried my darndest. [TS]

01:29:45   I think I succeeded in doing the thing that I hate so much in Objective C. and C. [TS]

01:29:51   Sharp which is when you have say like an if statement having the opening brace bracket brace brace on the same way. [TS]

01:30:00   See if statement I would prefer them so that the braces are all on the scene in the same column [TS]

01:30:06   and Java Script is not that way and so you know like in a function declaration is another example. [TS]

01:30:11   So function all post paginated you know some parameters open curly newline and I know it drives me crazy. [TS]

01:30:20   Yeah that's that's key in our C. Style like I've been doing that for a while. [TS]

01:30:24   It's the worst I hate it but it's the Java Script way and I'm trying to trying to learn [TS]

01:30:28   and if you look at all the Perl code they disposed of the chat room like that was my chosen style you know I always Max [TS]

01:30:36   up vertically opening closing Curly's in any language that I did in any C. [TS]

01:30:40   Like language but in my job for the past five years I've been doing it the other way [TS]

01:30:45   and I have to admit that my fingers have been rewired. It's unfortunate. [TS]

01:30:49   So now when I have to go at it my own code in like you know to fix bugs and I see band models or whatever. [TS]

01:30:54   I find myself doing it the other way [TS]

01:30:56   and it's like I had you know a lot of is why I still maintain that that other way is better [TS]

01:31:02   but it's not better enough the way where they are vertically aligned Yeah [TS]

01:31:07   but it is not something I was going to argue like it's not better enough to make a difference so you know there's not [TS]

01:31:13   only this code that I'm looking at of yours from Rose is absolutely terrible also aesthetically because it well in the [TS]

01:31:20   languages I'm used to. [TS]

01:31:21   If it's not a function call it should be if space open for [TS]

01:31:25   and yes I do know that that is that is an example of a style that I've changed I don't do that anymore. [TS]

01:31:29   I put spaces after the F. [TS]

01:31:31   I don't know why I didn't put [TS]

01:31:32   and spaces after the my like there's many things I like in this code that I did not do any more at all. [TS]

01:31:36   What about the not operator of space not no I don't I don't I don't I don't go to space out of the not the not stuck to [TS]

01:31:43   the thing that is negating I agree that's weird. Yes it would be if space open for em not like a local. [TS]

01:31:50   We may differ over these small things here and there [TS]

01:31:52   but at least we can agree that we're not animals like the people who don't put space around binary operators like those [TS]

01:31:57   people should just all be pushed off a cliff I don't even know what. [TS]

01:32:00   And there are people out there who will defend that it's like a water you know everyone can be out braces here braces [TS]

01:32:05   there. [TS]

01:32:06   You know space after the you know explanation point [TS]

01:32:09   but come on space around binary operators like that's just disgusting. [TS]

01:32:13   Like just jam out [TS]

01:32:15   and there are people you think they don't exist I don't know if you have met I've met them these people are like no no [TS]

01:32:20   there should not be spaces around Eagles are you crazy you know plus equals mind if they just jam it all together [TS]

01:32:25   and you know it doesn't matter what the context knows people are just I don't know what happened in their life that [TS]

01:32:30   made them do so P.H.P. [TS]

01:32:33   Had the stupid idea of let's make the string nation operator at the dock which is also used for other things [TS]

01:32:38   but it will point out that the street again operator editing they got that from the Pro way. [TS]

01:32:43   Yes stupid that's not a compliment. [TS]

01:32:46   Probably got a for Mark it's great it's much better than plus as you'll learn [TS]

01:32:49   when you try to do stuff in Java Script of it as a number or a string you'll find out whatever following it. [TS]

01:32:57   Yeah [TS]

01:32:58   but yes that was allowed to really discover the whole thing about like how javascript doesn't really have a good integer [TS]

01:33:05   type like like written a lot about everything slowed down that I was here yet so you have like you have basically the [TS]

01:33:13   equivalent of I think fifty three bit integers at best. So if you were using it sixty four then your app yet. [TS]

01:33:20   Good look at the Java Script and others that this is the money one of the many reasons the gyroscope sucks [TS]

01:33:25   and one of the many things that people who try to write serious applications and jobs here very soon discovered [TS]

01:33:30   and by the time that by the time they discover they're like it's a formal part of the learning would scream I think [TS]

01:33:35   it's so funny that like you know like just like like when Gruber and Brent Simmons did that video for Microsoft [TS]

01:33:42   and I said like Wouldn't it be funny if you went back to like you know two thousand and six Gruber and showed him this. [TS]

01:33:48   You know wouldn't be funny if you went back to two thousand and six programmers and said in two thousand [TS]

01:33:53   and fourteen the cool new hip language everyone is writing everything is javascript if you told me in twenty. [TS]

01:34:00   Thirteen that I would take this on for fun. [TS]

01:34:03   A little laugh in your face I absolutely would laughed in your face like oh so many other things like Objective C. [TS]

01:34:08   For that matter. People are excited by what they can do with it. [TS]

01:34:11   How web applications are cool if you know right away about the Asian Brown modern browsers run javascript really well [TS]

01:34:17   everybody has them. [TS]

01:34:18   Suddenly Java Script this crappy language you know you can do cool things that people may hate Objective C. [TS]

01:34:24   The way you do with the data so you can write [TS]

01:34:26   and I was happy I was that circle that's appealing you know so that's that's what it all comes down to if Javascript [TS]

01:34:32   did not exist in browsers it would be about as popular as Perl. [TS]