The Accidental Tech Podcast

65: The Year Of Casey


00:00:00   Why do you keep saying you'll be at one. Probably why I don't know that is how to spell what you're saying. [TS]

00:00:05   P R O M high school prom. Oh you're one of those people leaves off of the problem are going to get is from Ohio. [TS]

00:00:11   Yet it was never the you know there's never the brown from the front of it. You're going to the prom. [TS]

00:00:17   Yeah that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard you know the rest the country of them New York is right as always you are [TS]

00:00:24   the worst. [TS]

00:00:24   But we also don't put mustard on our hamburgers [TS]

00:00:27   and that's right so there you know you don't put mustard on the hamburgers Now McDonald's is not for mustard on [TS]

00:00:33   hamburgers and into the New York metro area. [TS]

00:00:35   Interesting I thought I didn't know that it is the rest we got here so I went to Boston [TS]

00:00:38   and asked for a hamburger from a gal that I must know what the hell's going on. So what's going on this week. [TS]

00:00:46   Well let's start with overcast. Something happened over the last few days. [TS]

00:00:51   Yeah I ship the overcast beta and it's been really awesome Actually I've been extremely impressed and happy [TS]

00:00:59   and just overwhelmed [TS]

00:01:01   and humbled by the amount of feedback I've gotten from the beta beta it went to about you know thirty or so people [TS]

00:01:06   and let me interrupt you right there you are not currently seeking any more testers is that correct. [TS]

00:01:12   Well I'm running on U.T. [TS]

00:01:14   Ideas of the problem is like you know you have these thirty people plus my own device that's about forty devices you [TS]

00:01:21   only get one hundred per year [TS]

00:01:23   and I have to realize also like in the fall half these people are to get a new phone so if I want to have them keep [TS]

00:01:29   testing I'm going to have to overlap for a little while and you know your your device when it resets. [TS]

00:01:35   Like on on some calendar anniversary of your developer kind of something and so and I don't I don't even know [TS]

00:01:40   when I think it's that that's like in July for me [TS]

00:01:42   or something so it's sometime not ideal for the i Phone release cycle so so basically I have to like keep my number of [TS]

00:01:49   actual devices I care about under fifty. [TS]

00:01:52   Plus if I ever make an i Pad version I account for people's I've had [TS]

00:01:55   and that's a whole other thing so it's really a pain in the butt but overall the. [TS]

00:02:00   It is going fantastically I'm getting tons of feedback. I'm extremely happy about it. [TS]

00:02:04   Meanwhile Casey you have way better news than that. Yes indeed. [TS]

00:02:09   So the great news is my blogging engine works and can and can sustain traffic from your site which is significant. [TS]

00:02:16   Great moving on moving on I just remember he's the reason I know that is because I now it's a couple days ago that Erin [TS]

00:02:24   is pregnant finally which is extremely exciting. Congratulations Thank you. [TS]

00:02:30   We have been working on this for quite literally three and a half years [TS]

00:02:32   and I will go into the details here on the show because we are an explicit show. [TS]

00:02:39   Well here's what we did we went to the bench. [TS]

00:02:42   So anyway I wrote a blog post about this entitled finally which I thought was hysterical [TS]

00:02:49   and only a couple people I think really picked up on the joke there. [TS]

00:02:52   But anyway I wrote a blog post about this which Marco you linked to when tweeted about [TS]

00:02:57   and John you tweeted about that was very kind of you guys. [TS]

00:03:00   And so I went into a kind of the nitty gritty of the journey from from saying in twenty ten hey we should probably [TS]

00:03:07   start trying to have kids to being here we are all the way in twenty fourteen saying oh my God we're finally pregnant. [TS]

00:03:14   And it was a long and difficult road but we are here and that's all that matters and so far everything sounds good [TS]

00:03:21   and is healthy and will meet our little sprout as we're calling it in the first week of November. [TS]

00:03:26   So we're so seriously seriously excited I'm glad to see that you got to go public before over tested. [TS]

00:03:33   Yes although if I'm honest it's still it's still wearing on me that I haven't gotten my Iowa seven update for fast text [TS]

00:03:41   out because I cannot get all the layout working right and I'm too stubborn to revert to springs and struts [TS]

00:03:47   and I've got something. [TS]

00:03:49   The compose message view is just not working properly and I think it's the what is the content inset [TS]

00:03:55   or something like that so basically I have a I wasn't planning on going into this but. [TS]

00:04:00   So I have is that under the nav bar you know that's a very common thing. [TS]

00:04:03   Yeah yeah and I can figure out how to fix it yet and I've been trying to go back [TS]

00:04:06   and look at the old auto layouts talks from the old of the Seas [TS]

00:04:11   but I haven't really had time because well it had something else coming up on lately and it's a pretty good reason. [TS]

00:04:17   Yes I like to think that is a good reason [TS]

00:04:19   but I was real I well I will be upset if I don't get the Iowa seven update in before over cash EPS I won't be [TS]

00:04:26   necessarily upset if I don't get it in before Iowa State is in beta [TS]

00:04:29   but I will be upset if I don't get it in before over cash so I gotta find some time to do that you have some time to [TS]

00:04:36   bring this back around Cam all my blogging engine which I believe I mentioned I open sourced [TS]

00:04:40   and we can have you know some like that that did survive. So I'm pretty excited about that. [TS]

00:04:45   It seems like it didn't crumble Heroku although I will say that and I probably shouldn't [TS]

00:04:51   but I will say that I noticed in my Google Analytics refers to some domain I genuinely don't remember what it was [TS]

00:04:58   but it was like Daily something dot Heroku dot com which I tried to load [TS]

00:05:03   and it challenge me for authentication which makes me wonder if I had actually hit some sort of threshold where in the [TS]

00:05:11   Hiroko people were like what's going on over there. [TS]

00:05:16   But today to this moment I'm running on a single day I know which is a Rochas speak for you know one process [TS]

00:05:22   and I'm using Knode and things haven't crumbled. So a lot of big things going on. [TS]

00:05:28   This is really this is like the year of Casey. This is great. [TS]

00:05:31   Well it's weird to be in the spotlight which probably sounds really weird given that I'm on this part cast [TS]

00:05:37   but it's where to be in the spotlight. [TS]

00:05:38   Sounds like you know that's true but I know we were super super excited [TS]

00:05:43   and know I such a jerk I forgot to mention that after I put up this post you know a lot of people came out of the [TS]

00:05:50   woodwork to send e-mails and tweets and just unbelievably unbelievably kind things [TS]

00:05:56   and if you were one of those people thank you so very very much and I'm. [TS]

00:06:00   So going through all the e-mail and trying to reply to every single one of them and I will at some point [TS]

00:06:04   but that the support has been amazing [TS]

00:06:08   and not to completely get us to do railed But it it's been interesting seeing how many people come out of the woodwork [TS]

00:06:14   and say we too had fertility problems. [TS]

00:06:16   Or alternatively Alternatively we know someone who has had fertility problems and oh man this really rings true [TS]

00:06:24   and that's been that's been really kind of it while it's sad is that I would never wish this upon anyone [TS]

00:06:30   but also really awesome to know that it's not just us and that [TS]

00:06:35   and that people appreciate talking about something that's actually fairly taboo [TS]

00:06:39   and not something you hear talked about a lot so I I'm happy I'm happy as can be. [TS]

00:06:43   Aaron is overjoyed it is a tragedy that Aaron isn't already a mom because I think she'll be a great mom. [TS]

00:06:49   So I'm really really excited. Awesome. A phobia of Casey goes better than the year of Luigi. [TS]

00:06:55   I wish I understood the joke. That's OK. Is that intended joke about the one. [TS]

00:07:01   Well yeah you're going to win that one sorry. [TS]

00:07:05   It was the beginning of two thousand and thirteen [TS]

00:07:08   and said this is going to be the year of Luigi which means they're going to release games featuring Luigi more [TS]

00:07:13   prominently [TS]

00:07:14   and twenty thirteen was not a good year financially for the company should ever have me explain these references to you [TS]

00:07:20   on the show go by you can you can acknowledge that you don't get them. [TS]

00:07:25   But rest assured I was surprised at the chair I'm going to make this show and the kind of disappointed in them [TS]

00:07:29   but you too expected [TS]

00:07:31   but like whoever like Luigi's like I was the whole point of this the whole point of the year of the review all over the [TS]

00:07:37   year. [TS]

00:07:39   Right that's terrible like who [TS]

00:07:40   or who was ever in a million years has who's ever said like you know intended needs more Luigi I would like to play [TS]

00:07:48   more games with Luigi please and the games to support local players I want to put in more time playing as Luigi. [TS]

00:07:53   They launched the Game Cube with what we do with the we didn't answer because they didn't have a murder game [TS]

00:07:57   and look how well that went against you. [TS]

00:08:00   They did much better than that we will tell you everything is done better than we do [TS]

00:08:04   and we will probably get to that later. I think the three D. O. [TS]

00:08:06   Did better than the one you know while we have another piece of follow up. [TS]

00:08:10   And speaking of things that are expected Marco did you do your homework. Of course not. OK I did my homework John. [TS]

00:08:17   Do I get a gold star. [TS]

00:08:18   I thought maybe you tweeting a screenshot What a shame Demarco are or reamer reminded him that this homework existed. [TS]

00:08:24   Let's start with that reminded him that it existed as we know that look at the notes files though. [TS]

00:08:28   Well to be fair last night I told him about the game and she installed it [TS]

00:08:33   and she played it next to me in bed so I heard some of it I hope [TS]

00:08:38   and she thinks it's pretty good that she found it doesn't take long right. If I'm selling you finish it. [TS]

00:08:43   Yes Well that's the funny thing is OK so let me back up so we're talking about Monument Valley which was which came out [TS]

00:08:50   what would you say a couple months ago maybe a month ago. Some like that. [TS]

00:08:54   OK So came out fairly recently [TS]

00:08:55   and as we've talked about in the past you know it seems that there are there are often times premier I.O.'s games you [TS]

00:09:03   know letter press is a great example three's is a great example. [TS]

00:09:06   Flight Control way back when was a great example and so Monument Valley was was one of the premiere games recently [TS]

00:09:12   and so I downloaded it last night and started playing it and Aaron was watching over my shoulder [TS]

00:09:18   and was like well it's an interesting and so we share it out an i Tunes store account [TS]

00:09:23   and so she'd you know had it already [TS]

00:09:25   and so there we were sitting on our i Pads next to each other playing Monument Valley [TS]

00:09:29   and I definitely have some thoughts about it but the funny [TS]

00:09:31   and frustrating thing about it was I'd started playing somewhere between five and thirty minutes before air [TS]

00:09:37   and I wasn't paying close attention. [TS]

00:09:39   And sure enough by the time we finished which is only about an hour to an hour and a half later she finished [TS]

00:09:44   and easily just a couple minutes after I did [TS]

00:09:47   and we had started quite a bit more than a couple minutes apart so I was a little annoyed by that [TS]

00:09:53   but I guess she's a smart one in the family. Nevertheless it was very good it was very very good. [TS]

00:09:58   I quite liked it did you. Did you want to play it for any particular reason John. [TS]

00:10:02   Oh no I was the last show talked about it. [TS]

00:10:06   So the game I was mentioning a lot of people thought they'd gotten stuck on it or that it was hard [TS]

00:10:10   but that I couldn't tell if they were joking because I thought it was just relentlessly linear extremely easy [TS]

00:10:14   and then I thought since you two had been playing a lot of the kind of games you used to play [TS]

00:10:20   but more play more casual games of this was the casual game that you might enjoy [TS]

00:10:23   and it had I thought it had some interesting aspects to it like the artwork I thought was great [TS]

00:10:29   and the idea was very clever. [TS]

00:10:31   I took advantage of touching in an interesting way like a type of game that wouldn't have been as interesting if you [TS]

00:10:36   didn't on a console or on a P.C. [TS]

00:10:39   As I think you should give it a try but that thing the one that I was basically did you find it easy [TS]

00:10:44   and then want to do or what do you think of it overall. [TS]

00:10:47   At the beginning I most certainly did not find it easy and when you download Monument Valley what you should do it. [TS]

00:10:53   It was absolutely a great game and it's when it's worth the four dollars but we'll get to that later when [TS]

00:11:00   when you down though they kind of just dump you want to level. [TS]

00:11:03   I almost thought something was wrong because they don't explain anything and I've seen this before [TS]

00:11:09   but it seemed surprising how little explanation there was and [TS]

00:11:15   and it took me a minute to realize what the crap I had to do in Monument Valley if I were to summarize it is kind of a [TS]

00:11:22   game playing off the drawings of the MC I'm sure is that correct. [TS]

00:11:27   OK so there is going to get a fair sky so it's its geometry that can't really be real. [TS]

00:11:34   But you know it's I don't know how to explain it so I won't try [TS]

00:11:37   but suffice to say I had to I had to explain to my kids and this is what I came up with. [TS]

00:11:42   If it looks like it touches it touches and it's a good way of looking at it [TS]

00:11:45   and two things that look like they shouldn't be able to touch with one in the same intermediary piece depending on how [TS]

00:11:52   things are set up may actually touch if you like spin that interment intermediary piece around so anyways so they don't. [TS]

00:12:00   Two into this game and I didn't have a lot of explanation and at first I was like What the crap is going on [TS]

00:12:05   and I was and I almost started to get frustrated at the very beginning and then right [TS]

00:12:09   when I was going from THIS IS WEIRD TO ALL MY GOD WHAT THE HELL. [TS]

00:12:12   That's when I figured it out [TS]

00:12:14   and then I was OK And so for the first half to two thirds the game I did not find it easy I found it to be the correct [TS]

00:12:22   balance of hard but not annoying. [TS]

00:12:25   And I also would not say it was terribly linear in the way I experienced it because I did think about things. [TS]

00:12:32   Then there were a couple levels I should've taken a note on which ones they were [TS]

00:12:35   but there are a couple levels where I was like OK this is seriously linear and it's beautiful and it sounds great [TS]

00:12:42   and I didn't realize that I should've been wearing headphones to play it [TS]

00:12:44   but I heard after the fact that it's I guess it uses you know stereo to its advantage or whatever [TS]

00:12:50   but it sounds great it's beautiful. [TS]

00:12:52   But there were some levels I think there was one going into like a dungeon it actually I think is what leads up to the [TS]

00:12:58   picture I tweeted that it was extremely linear [TS]

00:13:01   and as you're tapping about moving this little girl around the stage that you're playing. [TS]

00:13:07   Things are happening so it's not like boring but nevertheless it was very linear. [TS]

00:13:11   Then after that there were other levels like the one with the box that I just took forever to figure out and I did [TS]

00:13:18   and I wouldn't have said it was linear at all. What did you think John. [TS]

00:13:21   Well here's what I mean by linear we're going to be about linear [TS]

00:13:23   and the sense of this game is that every time you solve some problem you're presented with a new problem. [TS]

00:13:31   And there's one way to do it more or less like you know if you had to switch it over the door. [TS]

00:13:37   The next step of the you're going to go through that door [TS]

00:13:38   and then you're not going to be able to go any place except for one place [TS]

00:13:41   and to get that place you do something it takes you there like a basis to solve this problem. [TS]

00:13:45   Here's your new problem solvers problem here is your new problem. [TS]

00:13:47   You know like it's not linear in that it's like a long series of corridors or whatever but gameplay wise [TS]

00:13:52   and flow chart wise it doesn't make you. It does make you do ten things that doesn't make you like him. [TS]

00:13:57   Set this up of here let me set that up over there. [TS]

00:14:00   Go through and do this and do this and then go there and do that and come back here [TS]

00:14:02   when I come back here again you know it doesn't it doesn't ask that of you which many you know games for more [TS]

00:14:07   experienced gamers do. [TS]

00:14:08   So this is definitely in the category of casual game [TS]

00:14:11   and it's more of like a game like experience in that you feel like you're participating in a narrative where you're [TS]

00:14:17   it's very clearly you're just pushing the character along a certain little arc. [TS]

00:14:20   My main complaint is not so much with the casualness because again they are some of the Paschal a lot of people can [TS]

00:14:25   make the same complaint about Journey. [TS]

00:14:27   It's very linear to realistically and there is just a there's there's more freedom within linear the linearity [TS]

00:14:32   and there's more of an overarching story to get you wrapped up in this one had kind of like a hint of the story [TS]

00:14:37   but it didn't. [TS]

00:14:38   You know I don't want to ruin journey for journey for people [TS]

00:14:40   but I think comparing my new value journey would be very instructive for like a game design perspective because they're [TS]

00:14:47   so similar in so many ways we had the experience of playing them is so very very different [TS]

00:14:51   and people like mine you're going to get reviews that I don't think any game critic would hold it anywhere near journey [TS]

00:14:57   and figuring out why. Why is Journey so much better. [TS]

00:15:00   Again the Monument Valley despite them sharing so many characteristics that that I think is an interesting thing to [TS]

00:15:08   think about it. [TS]

00:15:09   I'll probably blog about if I ever bought it [TS]

00:15:12   and the funny thing is if I were to describe Monument Valley in just a couple of words you would be broken promises [TS]

00:15:20   and an example of this is the level selector which I didn't realize when [TS]

00:15:26   when it was first introduced to use this is kind of like I'm using huge air quotes here the menu system. [TS]

00:15:32   It's a building and you twist the building to advance from level one to two to three etc etc Well [TS]

00:15:39   when they show you this building originally they spin the building around [TS]

00:15:43   and I didn't pay close attention so I get through level one level two level three level four [TS]

00:15:48   and at this point I've seen all four sides of the building and so I'm like OK well my going to see a new building now [TS]

00:15:53   or what's going to happen and sure enough there's a fifth side of the building and that was a silly. [TS]

00:16:00   Ample of just can see a continual series of broken promises [TS]

00:16:04   but that's that's part of the catch that being part of the theme. [TS]

00:16:07   Like how can something have more than four sides thing possibly on trees. Absolutely and it's not a bad thing. [TS]

00:16:12   I don't mean to make that sound like it's a bad thing [TS]

00:16:14   but any time that you didn't think that something was an option like for example walking vertically [TS]

00:16:21   or walking off the side of something where in the real world you would just fall right off. [TS]

00:16:26   It's when one used or at least I didn't suspect that such moves were legal and then you find out. [TS]

00:16:32   Oh you can do that and so it's like one series of broken promise [TS]

00:16:36   or one broken promise after the other which is what made it so magical and wonderful [TS]

00:16:40   but at the same time it was like oh OK I guess that's a thing. So I really liked it. [TS]

00:16:45   The only thing is and I didn't get a chance to press Aaron on this because I really wanted to hear her opinion [TS]

00:16:51   and we didn't do any research at what it was all over and it lasted like I said about an hour hour [TS]

00:16:57   and a half it was all over an air and said Wait that's it. [TS]

00:17:01   How much did we pay for this [TS]

00:17:03   and it was so interesting to me because my first reaction which I didn't say out loud was wait that's it. [TS]

00:17:09   How much should I pay for this. [TS]

00:17:11   And then immediately after that I was like well you know a lot of work went into this game. [TS]

00:17:15   It costs half as much as a movie ticket and it lasted about as long as half a movie right. [TS]

00:17:19   It's funny it's funny you say that because I didn't talk to Aaron about this [TS]

00:17:22   but that's exactly what I thought to myself [TS]

00:17:24   and in our case we shared this quote unquote movie ticket because we have the same store account. [TS]

00:17:29   So we paid four dollars once and got each got an hour to an hour [TS]

00:17:34   and a half of enjoyment out of it so really it's a great deal. [TS]

00:17:38   But something about software has just programmed both of us I wish I could. [TS]

00:17:44   I don't mean that way [TS]

00:17:45   but I kind of wish I could throw in the under the bus to go well she doesn't know what you're talking about she's not a [TS]

00:17:49   developer but no I had the same thought and it's really kind of crummy that that there's this race to the bottom [TS]

00:17:55   and race to free. But I enjoyed it I'd recommend spending the four dollars I would have done. [TS]

00:18:00   It again but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think to myself wow that was short. [TS]

00:18:06   Well they have said the production values were super high I don't like that game is so so polished like the everything [TS]

00:18:11   there is no part of the game that looks like it's broken that looks artificial like every part of it even bikes of the [TS]

00:18:17   menu system it's all of a piece it is a beautifully made game like I mean if there's a bug in that game I didn't find [TS]

00:18:25   it if there's any if this is some visual element out of place I didn't find it and it's not a simple game as I go. [TS]

00:18:31   I mean not to say that Three's a simple but like graphics wise [TS]

00:18:35   and gameplay wise threes is a much simpler game than the things that mining valuables often did an amazingly well made [TS]

00:18:42   game in terms of just the construction of how the pieces apart to get some production values are high so I don't mind [TS]

00:18:47   paying more for it and I don't buy things based on Linked In price or anything like that. [TS]

00:18:51   I just wish that if it's not going to have difficult gameplay for for experience gamers it should have a more [TS]

00:18:58   compelling story like your walk was like that [TS]

00:19:00   and that the gameplay in your walk is not particularly difficult for anyone who's played Point click adventures their [TS]

00:19:04   entire life. [TS]

00:19:06   But the atmosphere and mood and story pulls you in and feel [TS]

00:19:10   and like makes it feel like more an experience I feel like your walk with it was a better game overall [TS]

00:19:15   but also one that would probably repel most casual players. [TS]

00:19:20   Monument Valley I don't know like I hate it I hate coming down like a mediocre opinion some people feel like I'm sent [TS]

00:19:27   pushing them away like you shouldn't get this game so I want you to play it to see if someone who doesn't who is not a [TS]

00:19:34   you know doesn't consider himself a gamer doesn't play games all the time all they find this game much more compelling [TS]

00:19:39   than I did and it seems like you identified a lot of the same problems as I did [TS]

00:19:44   and one thing you brought up that I didn't realize was that I didn't think of is that if you're not familiar with sort [TS]

00:19:49   of be the joke like the not the joke [TS]

00:19:52   or that the background a theme like the moment I saw a screenshot of this game I'm like oh it's an N.C. [TS]

00:19:57   Entry and I know exactly what to expect of the entire game because I played a lot of. [TS]

00:20:00   No I'm sure they're now going to be walking on walls I know it looks like it touches it touches like I see the whole [TS]

00:20:06   game before I installed the thing whereas if you come into a cold they have some vague memory of some moral impossible [TS]

00:20:12   waterfall looking thing or you're not you know a big game [TS]

00:20:16   or maybe you won't realize immediately all that's what this game is going to be about I think that's a lot of the [TS]

00:20:20   complaints that gamers have about this is that you show them a screen shot [TS]

00:20:23   and they feel like they've played the whole game and you play the whole game you're like yeah it's more [TS]

00:20:27   or less what I expected. Beautifully made you know nicely constructed but didn't add a lot on top of that. [TS]

00:20:32   Yeah I would agree and I was familiar with Asher [TS]

00:20:34   but not intimately familiar in so I knew what the point of the game was [TS]

00:20:41   but it still took thought in order to figure out what I needed to do to accomplish things [TS]

00:20:48   and as a casual gamer I absolutely recommend it I thought it was very good I will say the story either was way over my [TS]

00:20:57   head or was way too esoteric for me to understand what they were saying and I'm not going to spoil it or anything [TS]

00:21:03   but I definitely think the game is worth it. [TS]

00:21:07   It is to John's point about half a smile probably at this point heard it's not just a movie ticket [TS]

00:21:13   and will probably keep you occupied occupied about half as long. [TS]

00:21:16   So Marco I do recommend playing it so only about an hour maybe two time to spend but it's really really good [TS]

00:21:24   and I definitely definitely want to Marco it out and play it when I think he'll be able to do well on it. [TS]

00:21:31   He's too but will write so maybe every couple years if you can I play it he can play and report back to you. [TS]

00:21:37   We are sponsored this week once again by our friends a smile software they are promoting this week. P.D.F. [TS]

00:21:42   Pen scanned plus P.D.F. [TS]

00:21:45   Pen scan plus they recently did a great update to the software Now what this is is it's a scanning O.C.R. [TS]

00:21:51   App for i Phone and i Pad and all the O.C.R. Takes place locally right on the device so it doesn't have to wake up. [TS]

00:22:00   If your file or some cloud O.C.R. Service get the O.C.R. Results send it back. [TS]

00:22:04   It's all happening right there locally on your device and small so if I use a lot of the stuff I use P.D.F. [TS]

00:22:11   Pen [TS]

00:22:12   and they make high quality stuff they really do this is it's the kind of stuff that like you know you might think you [TS]

00:22:18   don't need some kind of P.D.F. [TS]

00:22:20   Adjustment tool until you do and then you go to them [TS]

00:22:23   and their software has saved my butt so many times doing some quick thing or doing an editor [TS]

00:22:29   or you know having like sign something send it back and you know you can do some of the stuff with Preview on the Mac. [TS]

00:22:33   But trust me you can do a lot more P.D.F. [TS]

00:22:35   Pen and I end up turning to turn to it quite a lot of people have ten scanned plus for i Phone [TS]

00:22:41   and i Pad let you scan directly from your i Phone or i Pad camera [TS]

00:22:46   and that they have batch canning batch scanning a speedy with you can do post processing and editing there. [TS]

00:22:53   You can automatically crop the scanner you can do it manually quickly imprecisely you can preview the result [TS]

00:22:59   and you can copy the text out immediately for use elsewhere so if you want to like scan a document copy the text page [TS]

00:23:05   or something else you know edited email you know whatever you want to do put it in draft into a billion things that you [TS]

00:23:10   can do all that stuff right there with P.D.F. Pen scan plus this new update has been outed for maximum usability. [TS]

00:23:17   It has an improve U.I. [TS]

00:23:20   but Effortless multi-page scans with post process image editing they have customs paper size settings for receipts. [TS]

00:23:26   You can also customize the paper size that is to whatever you want you can preview the O.C.R. [TS]

00:23:30   Text overlayed right on the page which helps you proofread make sure you've got everything right. [TS]

00:23:36   So really and of course you know they're always improving the accuracy of the O.C.R. [TS]

00:23:40   Engine and the text layout and everything so well it's a fantastic update and critical acclaim [TS]

00:23:46   and once again this is from Smile software and they make really good stuff. The whole P.D.F. [TS]

00:23:49   Pen family is really great. To learn more about this go to smile Software dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

00:23:56   Once again that is smile Software dot com slash A.T.P. Thanks a lot. Up to them and to P.D.F. [TS]

00:24:01   and Scan plus for i Phone and i Pad All right so there's breaking news breaking. [TS]

00:24:07   They hang about an hour or two ago and apparently Apple and Google are sitting in a tree now. [TS]

00:24:15   K S S I N G Yeah what is that about [TS]

00:24:17   and I don't know I don't know if we can really talk about that it just happened we don't really know it [TS]

00:24:21   but we know enough. [TS]

00:24:22   I mean what I posted [TS]

00:24:23   and the note that you should be looking at is enough people know about it by the time they listen to this is our US [TS]

00:24:30   whatever but it's all Apple into them [TS]

00:24:32   and suing each other over patents because that's a big companies do these I mean have they had a diagram in some [TS]

00:24:38   article ones like the diagram of who's going to every once a year anyway. [TS]

00:24:42   But Apple and Google to show each other you know over the over you'd expect i Phone patents and Android stuff [TS]

00:24:47   and who knows what else. [TS]

00:24:49   And now they're not anymore they have agreed to dismiss all current lawsuits that exist between two companies [TS]

00:24:56   and they have agreed to work together on patent reform of some core some form [TS]

00:25:00   and they haven't set one on some Nothing will come of that. [TS]

00:25:03   But anyway they basically agreed to put their guns back in the holsters for now on the path. [TS]

00:25:09   They're not doing a patent cross license which is that was Apple is done with Microsoft in the past which is OK you can [TS]

00:25:14   use my patents [TS]

00:25:15   and I can use your patents so they're keeping their own bat I don't I don't know how that works like we just agreed we [TS]

00:25:20   want to each other anymore. [TS]

00:25:21   Generally we don't just say they're stopping all current lawsuits I guess they're probably both reserve the right to [TS]

00:25:25   sue each other about it later. But and they declined to comment as to why. [TS]

00:25:29   And so both companies this is like the net neutrality thing. [TS]

00:25:34   Technology companies I mean I heard a person can mean so I've been a droughty [TS]

00:25:38   and they assume that technology companies like Microsoft Apple Google or if they're really old comedian I.B.M. [TS]

00:25:45   Are you know are on the bad side of net neutrality that or they're against it. [TS]

00:25:50   When that's not the case in fact that companies like Apple Google and even A.O.L. [TS]

00:25:53   I saw recently are on you know the good side of net neutrality they are in favor of no tragedy and Apple and Google. [TS]

00:26:00   Hey Pat if you ever have millions of pounds they have to have them [TS]

00:26:02   but they don't like the systems any more than anyone else does it's just it's just the cost of doing business a [TS]

00:26:06   terrible cost center for them there to spend billions of dollars on defending their you know Pat I mean maybe Steve [TS]

00:26:12   Jobs who disagreed. [TS]

00:26:13   He seemed to love patents and love patenting things [TS]

00:26:16   but in general technology companies I think would all agree that patents there's a problem with the current patent [TS]

00:26:22   system and it's just an annoying thing they have to do so these two companies agree now [TS]

00:26:26   and see jobs thousands perhaps to say OK let's stop all these buses to just costing us money. [TS]

00:26:32   No one's going to really win definitively it's just going to distract us for a long time [TS]

00:26:36   and let's concentrate our love our lobbying efforts in Washington however meager they may be getting some sane for [TS]

00:26:43   patent reform through and my first reaction to this which I tweeted [TS]

00:26:47   and also put in the show was I guess Tim Cook holding up a picture of a Samsung logo and saying fight the real enemy [TS]

00:26:55   and tearing it up on screen which is a reference I assume either one of you would get so I actually did I did. [TS]

00:27:00   I honestly did. Yeah maybe this is the year of K.C. [TS]

00:27:04   and Norco didn't get that reference [TS]

00:27:07   or enough course not can I run the weights in the show no advantage we had to you can look at it [TS]

00:27:11   but I mean that's just the knee jerk reaction to the idea being that Apple Apple [TS]

00:27:15   and Google that's not the real problem. [TS]

00:27:17   Samsung which is ripping off not just their patents but like their entire phone experience or whatever so where [TS]

00:27:23   and to be clear this doesn't really have anything to do with Apple findings and so on. [TS]

00:27:27   Yeah just the whole idea is fight it fight the real enemy and say oh maybe Google's not the real enemy [TS]

00:27:32   or whatever so I think this is a good thing overall for both companies because lawsuits really are a stupid distraction [TS]

00:27:36   and they are expensive [TS]

00:27:38   and after the Samsung you know whatever that the result that lawsuit where the Apple got peanuts you know like the cost [TS]

00:27:44   of I don't even cover the cost of litigation. [TS]

00:27:46   They are like one hundred twenty million dollars settlement [TS]

00:27:48   or something after years of fighting like I think River is saying that he thought it was like the principle of it like [TS]

00:27:55   well we're willing to waste all of our money and just fight you in court to the death even though we know. [TS]

00:28:00   We're not to win anything at the end just so how mad we are to have to show how Apple is irrationally aggressive with [TS]

00:28:05   his intellectual property to try to stop people from stealing their things [TS]

00:28:08   but that if that is their purpose which I don't think it is it's stupid because whatever else I've learned from this is [TS]

00:28:14   if you have deep enough pockets you can steal everything Apple does [TS]

00:28:17   and you get a slap on the rest after a couple years [TS]

00:28:19   but you will reap the huge market benefits of having stolen their stuff. [TS]

00:28:23   Again this presumes that you believe in patents and all the other stuff which I do not [TS]

00:28:27   and I don't think Marco does either. But anyway I'm glad to see it on Google dismissed their current lawsuits. [TS]

00:28:33   Glad to see them concentrated on doing better things making their products better [TS]

00:28:38   and maybe helping patent reform maybe. [TS]

00:28:41   Do we really think that you're actually going to do anything to try to reform patents and be even if they want to. [TS]

00:28:49   Is there anything we can really do. [TS]

00:28:51   I think they will like they do they do lobbying Apple [TS]

00:28:53   and Google do lobby for their interests in Washington that just that their money is massively outweighed by the people [TS]

00:28:58   on the other side of this [TS]

00:29:00   and so you know I mean it's good to see more of the good guys the good guys being people that I agree with obviously [TS]

00:29:07   getting getting into the fight [TS]

00:29:09   but realistically speaking the bad guys on the other side have way more money away more influence [TS]

00:29:15   and the whole thing's about Patton's like was the reason. [TS]

00:29:18   When I talk about plans that have are going to go that I was didn't talk at all about changing the system because it's [TS]

00:29:22   like it's in the Constitution like good luck with that. [TS]

00:29:24   You can't get people to agree you can have your laws passed that ninety percent of the people in the country agree with [TS]

00:29:29   good luck trying to get some things in the Constitution so I have them hope that things will get fixed there but [TS]

00:29:34   but I do like to see these companies you know actually fighting for their interests [TS]

00:29:40   when their interest align with mine. We're also sponsored this week by our friends back please. [TS]

00:29:45   So back please is quite simply is online back up. It's five dollars a month. [TS]

00:29:51   It is needed to the mac it is unlimited and throttled and uncomplicated. [TS]

00:29:56   So it's exactly what it sounds like it's online backup there's no tricks. No like up cells are different purchases. [TS]

00:30:02   You pay five dollars a month for unlimited space for one computer if you have multiple computers each additional one is [TS]

00:30:07   just another five dollars a month. Really very simple. [TS]

00:30:10   I've used it for years [TS]

00:30:12   and it's it's fantastic I have you know from my computer I have about a terabyte for my wife's computer we have about [TS]

00:30:20   another two terabytes from that I back up my mom's computer too. And it's it's fantastic it's just a great service. [TS]

00:30:28   You can easily restore all your files [TS]

00:30:31   or you can just restore one file to the web interface you know you can use it even as like an extended time machines [TS]

00:30:37   you can say oh you know I deleted that file a month ago [TS]

00:30:40   and they keep some retention there so they can go find out stuff like that you can see if it's there [TS]

00:30:45   or if you're like on the road somewhere and you need a file off your desktop. [TS]

00:30:48   You can get the file right from back please. They also have I O. S. and Android apps I believe at least they have I O. [TS]

00:30:54   S. S. I forget this every time. [TS]

00:30:56   Anyway I'm going to go with that at least they have i OS app where you can access any of your files [TS]

00:31:01   or better to back plays from anywhere you are from your US device simply and securely. [TS]

00:31:05   And of course as usual it's unlimited and simple and Native it was actually founded by X. [TS]

00:31:11   Apple engineers which is one of the reasons why the mac software is so good it's native and everything else. [TS]

00:31:17   So try it they have a fifteen day free trial no credit card required you just enter an e-mail in a password [TS]

00:31:23   and then you're off. [TS]

00:31:24   Once again it's online back up [TS]

00:31:26   and you know we always recommend this because you can have a local backup that's great [TS]

00:31:30   but local backup does not really help if like there's a fire in your house or like a flood [TS]

00:31:35   or let's say like you have like water damage from the you know the apartment above you floods in the new direction to [TS]

00:31:40   your place and flood your computer desk and mess the fire equipment. [TS]

00:31:43   You know it's a protect you from that theft is all sorts of like environmental things that can happen that can knock [TS]

00:31:48   out your computer and anything connected to it are plugged in nearby [TS]

00:31:51   and back ways takes care of it online back if you have all your files off in the clouds somewhere [TS]

00:31:56   and they're really great great company. Thanks for the back ways. Back Blaze dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

00:32:03   For just five dollars a month. [TS]

00:32:04   Simple unlimited on throttled back up as another reason to go back to Comet they have a great blog where they do what I [TS]

00:32:11   think every tech company should do is they blog about not like oh here they do blog about that here's the new feature [TS]

00:32:16   of our new version two point of the product they blog. [TS]

00:32:18   Instead what they do is mostly blog about the crazy things they have to do to store your data like they're big devices [TS]

00:32:24   filled with hard drives and all the stats on their hard drives [TS]

00:32:26   and the failure rates the most recent one was trying to correlate failure rates with temperature changes. [TS]

00:32:32   Just awesome stuff if you care about storage just to look at you know it's kind of like you know open source type [TS]

00:32:39   development where they discover things over the course of doing their work [TS]

00:32:44   and then they write about it in a sort of an open way like don't join your competitors not knowing how you do things [TS]

00:32:48   like they don't care here's here's everything we learned here's here's the reliability rates for hard drives over [TS]

00:32:53   multiple years. [TS]

00:32:54   You know they have like like thirty four thousand articles on things that are a pretty good sample size going I love [TS]

00:32:59   reading that stuff and it makes you know it should be unrelated to the product [TS]

00:33:02   but it makes me feel better using the product reading those blog posts. [TS]

00:33:05   Yeah I definitely enjoy those myself as well so beats Yeah. Apple supposedly is spending some serious money. [TS]

00:33:14   Well so that's the best part of the story before you can get the story. [TS]

00:33:17   The favorite part of the story is that and I'm sure you do both do the same thing. [TS]

00:33:23   You'll see some tweets go by [TS]

00:33:25   and you can infer what it is they're about because they like the first maybe the first couple to be D.C. [TS]

00:33:30   Don't link to any story but they make some kind of vague comment and you know something's up. [TS]

00:33:34   Sometimes you know a company's involved but you're not sure what the deal is and you have to like scroll [TS]

00:33:39   and you see a couple more. [TS]

00:33:41   If you're lucky some personal put a link in a link to a story that explains what it's like for a lot of the times in my [TS]

00:33:46   experience anyway. [TS]

00:33:47   I'll just get the commentary I won't get the story and I had to figure out what it's about [TS]

00:33:51   and you know I do my own piece on you go to Google and you just type in a couple key words [TS]

00:33:55   and then you find like that the top result is this one was that you know Apple the. [TS]

00:34:00   They in talks to buy Beats Music company to make the headphones and have the streaming media music service [TS]

00:34:06   and stuff like that [TS]

00:34:07   and the next question is did they already buy them then people are writing snarky tweets about the fact that it [TS]

00:34:12   happened or is it just the rumor [TS]

00:34:13   and so more Glee around you right now it's just like you know an article that says Apple is in talks about mobile right [TS]

00:34:21   and that process repeated itself [TS]

00:34:22   and continues to reveal itself to this very day every time I see people tweeting about it. [TS]

00:34:26   People write headlines like why Apple bought Beats [TS]

00:34:29   and I told that they don't know why I should buy Beats OK I kind of got that one you know it's like why Apple buying [TS]

00:34:36   Beats is the best thing ever I can't really tell. [TS]

00:34:38   So I'm constantly every time he tweets like they announce it to they announce something going on for one week now more [TS]

00:34:43   than a week. [TS]

00:34:44   It's just yeah it's both frustrating [TS]

00:34:46   and hysterical that this can be a story without actually there being an announcement yet. [TS]

00:34:52   So suppose it's real because I think there's there's enough. Oh yeah. [TS]

00:34:58   Now this tons of smoke and there's been no denials from anybody yet right. [TS]

00:35:04   And it's been reported by The Wall Street Journal a first look these are you know there's this is pretty substantial [TS]

00:35:08   smoke so I would say it's very likely to be real at this point. [TS]

00:35:13   All right so the next question is Why has it not been similar we all believe that it's real [TS]

00:35:17   and everything points in that direction. Why no one else. Well you know they could just be delaying it until W.D.C. [TS]

00:35:24   To combine into one big P.R. Announcement it could just really not be finished a New Year not be a done deal yet. [TS]

00:35:29   So they kind of can't [TS]

00:35:30   and shouldn't talk about it yet you know there's lots of plausible reasons why it was you know leaked [TS]

00:35:34   but not announced yet though it was my guess as well [TS]

00:35:37   but then like one leaks so early it seems like if it was a plan that early. [TS]

00:35:42   Well I guess maybe I'm in denial about what I'm going to be on a plane for six hours but [TS]

00:35:50   but yeah I think this is a little bit weird because normally Apple sort of planned leaks happen in closer proximity. [TS]

00:35:58   Maybe they're you know maybe this just was that. [TS]

00:36:00   Unplanned leak or whatever [TS]

00:36:00   but anyway it's a weird story of the fact that it just lives on in the zombie mode like everyone is reading is that has [TS]

00:36:06   already happened which will be funny if it doesn't happen for some weird reason. [TS]

00:36:11   But just like we've moved on now now we're just talking about like the repercussions of this deal it hasn't been [TS]

00:36:15   announced yet talk about the actual deal. Yeah I mean so if if it's true let's assume for now it's true. [TS]

00:36:22   So you know it's it's really interesting because you know first of all you get for three billion dollars [TS]

00:36:27   and that's more than what they bought next for [TS]

00:36:28   but these days you know that's that's a mid price acquisition that's not even like a massive acquisition in tech [TS]

00:36:35   anymore. [TS]

00:36:36   So you know OK it's it's a lot of money [TS]

00:36:38   but they are a profitable Harbor company I think somebody somebody said that beats makes like a billion dollars a year. [TS]

00:36:46   Some like that so the price really isn't that crazy for that but anyway. [TS]

00:36:51   So it's unusual for Apple it's worth mentioning because this is not the kind of Appalachian Apple has really ever done [TS]

00:36:59   that you know this is you know normally they buy like small technology companies that are doing something cool [TS]

00:37:04   and they buy them for the technology or for the people [TS]

00:37:06   and you never hear about you know they don't they don't buy big established consumer brands and [TS]

00:37:13   and you know like beets and do God knows what with it like that's a very this is very unlike Apple. [TS]

00:37:18   But you know this is a new Apple this is Tim Cook's Apple and it's a shifting landscape [TS]

00:37:24   and Apple does what they think is best [TS]

00:37:26   and I think a lot of reasons why this makes sense you know a lot of people like what are they going to do this is going [TS]

00:37:32   to sense this is true but I do this makes tons of sense. [TS]

00:37:36   Before I explain why WOULD us think about it I don't really have that much of an opinion which bothers me because I [TS]

00:37:43   know I should but I've thought about it on and off since we since we heard this going on [TS]

00:37:49   and the only opinion I have about it is that I'm really pissed off that I didn't in the media at least think to pitch. [TS]

00:37:57   Dr Dre as ne. [TS]

00:38:00   Beer bash artist it took me a couple days to read to think that you know it's way too big for the now I know [TS]

00:38:05   and it took me a couple days to figure that joke though and I'm a little bothered by that [TS]

00:38:08   but I mean I guess it makes sense. [TS]

00:38:10   It's hard to there are two wildly different businesses that beats has there's the streaming music service kind of [TS]

00:38:17   similar to Spotify although I never used it and then there's the headphones [TS]

00:38:22   and from everything I've heard from audio files which I don't want to piss them off ever again. [TS]

00:38:31   By God that was a mistake that was awesome. Then you and I have different definitions of awesome anyway. [TS]

00:38:38   Every audio valid ever heard us had a set of Beats headphones on their head says that they're terrible. [TS]

00:38:44   Now I am not saying that's right I'm not saying that's wrong I'm just saying that's what I've heard [TS]

00:38:49   and I've never tried them. [TS]

00:38:51   I probably should find a pair somewhere that's been on three thousand years because like a Best Buy or whatever [TS]

00:38:56   and try them but there's the hardware business [TS]

00:38:59   and then there's the streaming music business which supposedly is very very good [TS]

00:39:04   and then once you talk with streaming music business is there do they get Does Apple get licenses if they if they just [TS]

00:39:11   buy up beats [TS]

00:39:12   and otherwise leave them alone just beats keep licenses there's like so many different moving parts here [TS]

00:39:16   and I just I don't know what to make of it and I can't decide if it's good bad or somewhere in between. [TS]

00:39:23   John what do you think we're in a couple of ways a lot of them have to be speculative ways be it because it hasn't been [TS]

00:39:30   announced we don't know anything about it [TS]

00:39:32   and so everyone has to first decide OK assuming it's true does Apple keep the beats brand [TS]

00:39:37   or do they fold it in to that will keep the streaming service [TS]

00:39:40   or just use technology make a new service that will keep the headphones or ditch them [TS]

00:39:44   and so everyone has to sort of build their own beats acquisition like I don't they're going to take the brand they're [TS]

00:39:49   going to drop the headphones they're going to integrate the streams [TS]

00:39:52   or reside in radio I think they're going to keep the brand and keep the streaming service [TS]

00:39:55   and drop that if I think they can keep the headphones but drop the streaming service [TS]

00:39:58   and you know there's so many possible. [TS]

00:40:00   Think the licenses won't come with them desired to be renegotiated No actually I think licenses will come of them [TS]

00:40:04   actually I don't think it doesn't matter because they're going to have the beach guys negotiate with the record label [TS]

00:40:08   instead of apple know do better why will they do better is [TS]

00:40:10   and once they become part of Apple don't they become the enemy as well you know it's like so many permutations [TS]

00:40:15   and so many unknowns it's hard to solve with things a few things I think we can dress [TS]

00:40:18   and I think Marco talk about some of them already are one the people saying this is a sign of weakness because if Apple [TS]

00:40:24   has to go outside for the stuff it should have to go outside the company for this is that strength. [TS]

00:40:29   Why does it have to buy another company to do streaming music what is as a buyer the company you headphones why is that [TS]

00:40:34   the by another company to do to make deals with record labels as a sign of weakness. [TS]

00:40:37   Strategy was work for Microsoft keep everything in-house don't never look anything outside never going to be outside is [TS]

00:40:43   better than what you have. [TS]

00:40:44   Well the thing is Apple has never been like that [TS]

00:40:45   when they wanted to get semiconductor manufacturing expertise they bought P.A. [TS]

00:40:49   Semi [TS]

00:40:49   when they wanted to you know the cost of that example they want to upgrade their store they buy the company that did [TS]

00:40:56   the you know the App Store thing that chomp [TS]

00:40:57   or whatever it was like they're constantly buying outside companies right in the areas like these because it's hard to [TS]

00:41:03   hard to staff up. You know it's much easier to buy a bunch of experienced people who've already done what you want. [TS]

00:41:08   They're constantly buying these small companies they're buying it's because they have people in technology that Apple [TS]

00:41:12   wants [TS]

00:41:13   and yes they do fold them in the separate question so I don't think this acquisition is a sign of Apple's weakness [TS]

00:41:17   and I don't think it's unprecedented to acquire companies that have things that Apple wants instead of building them [TS]

00:41:24   all in house that's all fine on President would be keeping the beats branding keeping it separate from Apple if they [TS]

00:41:29   don't do that once you get acquired by Apple Store Clee your people in your technology become part of the apple fold in [TS]

00:41:34   whatever branding and product you have before it goes away and that works with small companies [TS]

00:41:38   but once you're buying companies for multiple billions of dollars it's like do we really want to throw away that brand [TS]

00:41:43   and that brings me to me to what I think this acquisition is about this phantom acquisition with no announce parameters [TS]

00:41:49   so that I have to just speculate about and this says one thing to me [TS]

00:41:53   and one thing about the future of Apple I will talk about wearables is fashion which is always been a part of what I. [TS]

00:42:00   Well does you know every part of the research on Apple has been about fashion in some way from the from the you know [TS]

00:42:06   Bonnie Blue Eye mac to the i Pod [TS]

00:42:10   and you know that all their advertising is on television with a dancing silhouette people like yes fashion is always [TS]

00:42:16   been part of Apple. [TS]

00:42:17   This I think is going further down that road with a possible wearable coming out line [TS]

00:42:22   and what does beats bring beats is a fashion phenomenon you talked about the quality of the headphones not the [TS]

00:42:29   integrate in fashion it doesn't matter that much because I have the headphones as is the fact that they're cool [TS]

00:42:35   and that people like them and you can say they're right or wrong to like them [TS]

00:42:38   but they are definitely in fashion the streaming service is well Could Apple do a string Service sure you know beats is [TS]

00:42:46   not a big streaming services you know Spotify an R.T.O. Way bigger. [TS]

00:42:51   But it seems to have a good brand and it's positive and people like their streaming service [TS]

00:42:56   and if Apple got behind it they could get the numbers up [TS]

00:42:59   but this just me without knowing anything this just seems like a fashion acquisition and [TS]

00:43:03   when you buy something a fashion like of Apple bought Versace [TS]

00:43:06   or something which I'm probably mispronouncing sorry fashion people they would not get rid of the brand like you buy [TS]

00:43:12   Calvin Klein You don't say and we're not going to use the count by name anymore. [TS]

00:43:15   Of course you can use the name like that's what you bought. [TS]

00:43:17   So if I'm right in that Apple has bought beads because of it for fashion reasons I have to think that it's going to [TS]

00:43:23   keep the brand because you don't buy something you know by a fashion company and then throw away the name brand. [TS]

00:43:30   Yeah I think I think you're on the right track with all this I mean so I think again first to address that questions [TS]

00:43:36   everyone's asking you know what they do with the beats brand I think it's a no brainer the beats brand is really strong. [TS]

00:43:41   They're going to keep it. [TS]

00:43:41   No question like that it's it would be really stupid to you know shut all those down [TS]

00:43:48   and there are these are now just Apple headphones [TS]

00:43:50   and this is now the new i Tunes Radio to point out that would be a huge mistake. [TS]

00:43:54   I really I don't think Apple is is stupid that would be that would be really stupid. [TS]

00:44:01   So that's one thing the other thing is you know the if you look at this is two this is two very different businesses [TS]

00:44:08   right. [TS]

00:44:08   This is headphones headphone hardware that's you know this premium price segment that is very high margin versus this [TS]

00:44:17   music service which is probably very low margin and not very popular yet. [TS]

00:44:23   So here's you know here's where I think basically they had to be tape of it you know people people think I'm all up in [TS]

00:44:30   arms about Beats headphones because they're bad and the fact is I don't think that they're not great [TS]

00:44:36   and you can you know it's like Bowe's Bose headphones are not bad headphones you can just get better sound quality at [TS]

00:44:44   those prices from other brands [TS]

00:44:47   or you can get better sound quality for less from other brands that are that are less well known or less fashionable [TS]

00:44:53   or just you know just targeted differently or prioritize differently. So Beats headphones are not terrible. [TS]

00:45:01   They're better than ear buds. Certainly they're better than any year but I've ever tried. [TS]

00:45:07   And they look nice and they're pretty comfortable with most of them are. [TS]

00:45:12   So really that's pretty good and you know they don't necessarily sound accurate. [TS]

00:45:19   They don't they do not accurately represent like with like a flat frequency response. [TS]

00:45:23   But most people don't like flat frequency response as most people like a boost in bass and treble [TS]

00:45:28   and that's what they supposedly do. And so you know they make the sound more appealing even if it's artificial. [TS]

00:45:37   And so why don't you combine that you know the whole package here is pretty appealing to people. [TS]

00:45:42   You have good looking headphones that are cool they are from a popular brand and they sound appealing to you [TS]

00:45:50   and they make you look good [TS]

00:45:52   or you know they make you look like a status symbol like that's it that's a very appealing thing now you know I was in [TS]

00:45:58   an Apple store a couple days ago. [TS]

00:46:00   And they had these two giant table set up with all premium headphones like the cheapest pair headphones on these tables [TS]

00:46:07   wasn't within two hundred bucks probably to pose eighty series. [TS]

00:46:11   And I tried a bunch and I had to wait a little while [TS]

00:46:13   and the beach ones are fine like you know they they didn't sound amazing [TS]

00:46:18   but they sent a good you know not just not great. [TS]

00:46:21   They didn't sound like three hundred dollars but they sounded like maybe eighty bucks. [TS]

00:46:25   You know I've had I've had headphones on [TS]

00:46:28   or worse than that you know really quickly what is the price point for a set of Beats headphones because I genuinely [TS]

00:46:33   don't know. I believe they spend two to four or two to three at least one hundred. [TS]

00:46:37   Yes I'm like OK [TS]

00:46:39   and I'm actually not that familiar with a product I like I'll try to mount the Apple store every once in a while [TS]

00:46:43   but I don't I don't usually do more than that [TS]

00:46:47   but if you look at everything else in that segment in the store everything else they have at the Apple Store on those [TS]

00:46:52   tables. [TS]

00:46:53   There are all these like premium fashion brands that brands like bows or Bang [TS]

00:46:57   and Olufsen like these these like super high end branded audio files really don't even look twice at because their [TS]

00:47:04   sound profiles are almost never very neutral. [TS]

00:47:07   They usually have a pretty pretty wacky sound profile like the frequency response one is nowhere near flat. [TS]

00:47:17   And so you know for audio files that's not really what we're looking for [TS]

00:47:20   but the fact is if these headphones are popular they're expensive. [TS]

00:47:24   They're nice they're they're well made they look cool. [TS]

00:47:27   They are usually extremely comfortable [TS]

00:47:29   and light weight some of them have noise canceling which is a very useful feature for travelers air travelers specially. [TS]

00:47:34   So like they're they're useful to people they're practical So it's a very successful headphone brand in a very [TS]

00:47:41   successful segment that is booming partially in fact a lot because of beats beat has made this segment popular among [TS]

00:47:48   young people who previously was wearing crappy ear buds. [TS]

00:47:51   So if you'd like beats to me and I mean this in a good and bad ways there are good ways here. [TS]

00:47:57   Beach has done to headphones what Starbuck. Did for coffee you know it. [TS]

00:48:02   It isn't the best coffee but it brought coffee to the masses that was above above and beyond both the price [TS]

00:48:10   and the quality of like seven eleven crap that you get a gas stations and that you know has done it to headphones. [TS]

00:48:15   It's way better than ear buds by a long shot. [TS]

00:48:19   It's way better than the crappy little you know twenty dollar things you get you know at the drugstore. [TS]

00:48:24   It's a lot more expensive and you can do a lot better. [TS]

00:48:29   But it's bringing it brought full size headphones to the masses again [TS]

00:48:34   and it's bringing this whole category of expensive headphones to the masses [TS]

00:48:39   and making that cool making it cool to walk around wearing anything beyond ear buds I mean I would love to walk around [TS]

00:48:46   wearing nice big headphones the sound good [TS]

00:48:48   but until about this year I would have felt like an idiot walking around like that so I would look ridiculous. [TS]

00:48:54   Now everyone's wearing big headphones. That was and that was largely started by beats. [TS]

00:48:59   So anyway it's a very good headphone brand it's not for me but it's a very good successful brand [TS]

00:49:06   and they're selling a lot of three hundred are things in Apple stores [TS]

00:49:09   and it's a very high margin business so I look at this primarily as a retail buy like I think the music service I get [TS]

00:49:16   about a second I think the service is actually a secondary deal here. [TS]

00:49:20   I think this is primarily about the retail headphone brand and they already have tons of real estate and Apple stores. [TS]

00:49:27   Apple sells a ton of them and they're going to get a nice boost in just retail margins from this. [TS]

00:49:33   But do they really need that. [TS]

00:49:34   I mean I don't know I don't buy that they're not going to make beats headphones become Apple headphones because they [TS]

00:49:41   don't need more money I mean they're freakin printing money Apple is well [TS]

00:49:45   but it think of it as a strategic thing I like about wearable. [TS]

00:49:48   What how many things is Apple sell that you wear that they're successful selling. [TS]

00:49:52   I mean your buds I guess them and they kind of like the i Pod Nano at various times IS GOING TO YOU are the shelf. [TS]

00:50:00   Stuff like that [TS]

00:50:00   but like it's clear that seems clear that he wants to get into wearables beats as a company that sells something you [TS]

00:50:07   wear that is very popular [TS]

00:50:09   and like even though I said I think I'll keep the brand that the reason this build your own acquisition thing is so [TS]

00:50:14   much fun is also in areas are plausible because it would be plausible that they bought Beats they will destroy the [TS]

00:50:21   beats brand and never use it [TS]

00:50:23   and merely have bought it because they want the expertise of people who know how to sell something expensive that you [TS]

00:50:28   wear that is cool and say please do that for us [TS]

00:50:31   and they want to me I mean to do deals with the record labels because he knows them [TS]

00:50:35   or whatever like that is less likely than what I think [TS]

00:50:37   but it's not it's not outside the realm of possibility like most people aren't talking about that [TS]

00:50:41   but I think that's impossible that they would ditch the headphones turn the streaming service into an Apple streaming [TS]

00:50:46   service [TS]

00:50:47   and what they would be getting a deal is relationships with music companies if not necessarily license agreements [TS]

00:50:52   but debating with legality as [TS]

00:50:54   and the expertise of a company that had figured out how to build something that three hundred bucks the people wear [TS]

00:50:58   that they'll happily buy. [TS]

00:51:01   Well so let's look at the music because this I think again i Phone business is way too big [TS]

00:51:08   and successful for Apple to you know shut down that brand or you know get rid of that. [TS]

00:51:13   I still disagree but people love beats everyone except audio files loves beat [TS]

00:51:18   but if they kill the business it would leave a vacuum in the market because as Marco pointed out the like of the [TS]

00:51:23   Starbucks moment for big headphones kind of like a retread of the seventy's where big ads on screen briefly are the [TS]

00:51:28   sixty's and seventy's were big had phones were [TS]

00:51:30   and then pick it mostly because you couldn't have been something small had [TS]

00:51:34   but you know I don't think it's implausible that they would get entirely right [TS]

00:51:40   and I think if anything they would become beats by Apple [TS]

00:51:43   and then it would become just Apple like maybe they don't maybe don't flush the beats brand in its entirety immediately [TS]

00:51:50   but I don't know if if their app after headphones at all which obviously none of us know if that's the case [TS]

00:51:55   but if they're after headphones I don't see the point in owning. [TS]

00:52:00   A company that continues to operate out of autonomy Asli when you've already got a crap load of money. [TS]

00:52:06   It be one thing if Apple was barely profitable and then they buy this hugely profitable business. [TS]

00:52:11   OK well not case don't mess with what works. But Apple like I said they're printing money. [TS]

00:52:16   Why would they not fold that into the Apple brand and hopefully bring those those customers with them [TS]

00:52:23   but they would by getting rid of the beats brand you'll be putting a void in the market [TS]

00:52:27   and who fills that void you're hoping you'll be able to sell that [TS]

00:52:29   but you'd be immediately it's like of Starbucks fold it and then I'll be like well [TS]

00:52:33   but someone's got to buy their you know high priced coffee [TS]

00:52:36   or in some way I'm not saying stop having Starbucks stores I'm saying put the words blue bottle in front of them on the [TS]

00:52:43   store instead of Starbucks you know [TS]

00:52:45   or whatever you know what they're what they're selling what they're selling is the brand. [TS]

00:52:50   Like you know I mean like it is not the headphone. [TS]

00:52:53   If someone else sold their headphone that look slightly different didn't have the word beats in front of it. [TS]

00:52:57   Someone asked you how does a new pair beat it said no it's what insert name of credit knockoff you would be creating a [TS]

00:53:03   void in the market about to be filled by somebody [TS]

00:53:05   and it will be up to Apple to fight with all the other people to fill that void Oh please buy our Apple headphones [TS]

00:53:10   or design both him guys who design beats. [TS]

00:53:12   Find beats by Apple that will take over the cache be to establish And I mean it's fashion you know if Calvin Klein goes [TS]

00:53:19   away you don't immediately get their market share because you made them go well you acquire Calvin Klein [TS]

00:53:24   and sunset the brand you don't get all those customers automatically everyone's going to fight for him again. [TS]

00:53:29   Yeah [TS]

00:53:30   and also like you can't underestimate the impact it has had on the market if you look around at any other headphone company [TS]

00:53:37   like you know even old companies like Sennheiser a K.G. [TS]

00:53:41   You know these big old old headphone company that making these things forever. [TS]

00:53:44   They all now have headphones in the one to three hundred dollar range that have like certain colors colored cables like [TS]

00:53:52   all this stuff like all these design cues and adjustments and these brands variants that all these like these these. [TS]

00:54:00   These old boring brands made these like new young model names like the Sennheiser momentum and all the stuff like. [TS]

00:54:07   And they all look what beats like they all took all those design cues they it clearly inspired beads. [TS]

00:54:15   If nothing else like [TS]

00:54:17   and yet they sound way better than I would have the size of momentum over beats any day even though I don't like the [TS]

00:54:21   momentum that much. [TS]

00:54:22   But but it's impossible to understate how dominant beat is in this in this market [TS]

00:54:29   and how much their brand is really worth [TS]

00:54:32   and how much people have been inspired by in Qatar are aspiring to be like them and other headphone brands [TS]

00:54:38   or copy them left and right trying to be more like them [TS]

00:54:41   but they are dominant in this market so here's here's where I think this all ties in. [TS]

00:54:45   So the Harvard Business I think is very good. [TS]

00:54:49   You know it's a nice boost to their retail margins and everything else that's fine. I think the bigger M. [TS]

00:54:53   And John I think you're right that this is more about Apple becoming a fashion [TS]

00:54:58   and lifestyle company that that is a very very good reason for this but I think the music angle [TS]

00:55:04   and the cool factor is the biggest you know if you look at what i Tunes is i Tunes is is it's never been that [TS]

00:55:12   financially important to Apple but it's always been spiritually important [TS]

00:55:17   and important for their for their public perception and marketing and branding. [TS]

00:55:21   Steve Jobs said a long time ago you know he's a long time ago he had dismissed streaming services [TS]

00:55:28   or the demand for them saying that people want to own their music and that it's proven to be wrong. [TS]

00:55:34   Like many like many Steve Jobs dismissals over time I'm sure I'm sure if he were still around today he would totally [TS]

00:55:40   deny that and say oh yeah this room service is great because now we have one you know but in typical job style [TS]

00:55:46   but you know Steve Jobs was wrong and it turns out and sorry Marlon. [TS]

00:55:53   Turns out that a lot of people don't care about their music and a lot of people want streaming [TS]

00:55:57   and that's all they want. I know so many people. [TS]

00:56:00   Look at the prompt every week I talk about this you know that is so many people just use streaming music now [TS]

00:56:06   and they don't like they don't even keep itunes libraries anymore. [TS]

00:56:10   I Tunes like Apple is dominant in that in the digital music realm like in selling digital music [TS]

00:56:17   but I think the world of selling digital music is on the decline [TS]

00:56:20   and i Tunes posted pretty disappointing numbers recently and it's been kind a kind of you know in the analysis [TS]

00:56:26   or in the end the analysts were a little bit [TS]

00:56:28   but I think it's pretty clear that Apple is the king of a sinking ship here this is a terrible mixed metaphor. [TS]

00:56:37   You know Apple Apple is so dominant in this world that a whole bunch of people no longer care about [TS]

00:56:45   and they try to use the streaming of i Tunes Radio and nobody cares. [TS]

00:56:50   It isn't I think radio is not that good I've I've used it here [TS]

00:56:52   and there because I don't use streaming enough to get one of the better services. [TS]

00:56:56   But even I can look at Hundred Year and say this is I think the worst of the strings [TS]

00:57:01   and they're just not they're not getting it. You know they and beats. [TS]

00:57:10   If you look at the other streaming services that are more successful than beats [TS]

00:57:13   and we're all user numbers I think they're a little bit less. [TS]

00:57:15   Apple like like Beats is much more about like editorial choice and like feature playlists made by actual artist [TS]

00:57:24   and editors and stuff like that. [TS]

00:57:25   It's less about like just pure algorithms and I think that's more Apple's style [TS]

00:57:30   and I think that would fit in better with the i Tunes store if it was ever merge [TS]

00:57:33   and where like it's more just it's more about like editorial curation from the music industry. [TS]

00:57:38   Right that's that is that is kind of very Apple versus R.T. [TS]

00:57:41   or Spotify so I think it makes sense for me to buy [TS]

00:57:46   and I think you know there's only they have to be realizing that you know Apple is run by a for the most part the same [TS]

00:57:55   very longstanding group of pretty uncool middle. [TS]

00:58:00   White guys who work at a tech company in California and that was cool for a while and I think that time is past [TS]

00:58:06   and I think they know it and it's pretty clear now that Apple is no longer inherently cool they make good stuff here [TS]

00:58:13   and there the people like. [TS]

00:58:14   But Apple as a brick [TS]

00:58:16   and is no longer like just the coolest thing in the world where it was you know three to five years ago say it is no [TS]

00:58:24   longer up on that peak and beats is you know it's not as big as Apple but is probably better we go hard. [TS]

00:58:32   And it's certainly in the area of music alone you know obviously beat of the make phone everything in the area of music [TS]

00:58:38   alone I think beats is a way better [TS]

00:58:42   and more promising brand now in the future than i Tunes as i think i Tunes is really on its way out of dominance just [TS]

00:58:49   because the thing it does is falling out of favor so quickly and probably more quickly than Apple even imagined. [TS]

00:58:54   And beef is really good at it and has a really good foundation [TS]

00:58:58   and they can bring these people in the you know they're going to bring in the executives from beats [TS]

00:59:02   and you know if the rumors are true they're going to take on executive roles [TS]

00:59:06   and like lead the music division an apple that's awesome because it's exactly what Apple needs. [TS]

00:59:11   Think about why why downloads why Steve Jobs thought the streaming wasn't a thing of the downs or better. [TS]

00:59:19   I mean a lot of this is that you know times change [TS]

00:59:22   and you know that the infrastructure changes that make streaming more feasible but even [TS]

00:59:27   when he said it if he had thought about it a little bit differently I think he would have realized that streaming was [TS]

00:59:32   inevitable maybe he did because he very often did not reveal his inner thing you other things [TS]

00:59:36   but it was like he was coming from an era where there was two ways to get music you bought a record of the record store [TS]

00:59:42   or you turn on the radio and listen to it and one you control entirely and you purchase music in your own [TS]

00:59:46   or you could pick which songs you want to do go to the store and buy them you can play them whenever you want [TS]

00:59:50   and the other one you had no control over other than changing the radio station even that was limited control due to [TS]

00:59:55   payola and limited bandwidth and various other things. But. [TS]

01:00:00   As in coming is that OK we're offering a digital version of you going to the record store and buying music. [TS]

01:00:05   There will be a digital version of the radio [TS]

01:00:07   but you will have some control over it it won't be like the radio radio where it's broadcast over a certain you know [TS]

01:00:13   wavelengths and you do all this receive in the certain stations. [TS]

01:00:16   Why shouldn't the listener be able to have almost as much control over what it was [TS]

01:00:20   and to want to streaming services ado bindings [TS]

01:00:22   and that's basically what's happened no one to listen to just a radio station you know that just plays music radio [TS]

01:00:29   sucks you know. They want control and the service is like a fine we can give you that. [TS]

01:00:34   Give us a seed it will make your playlists will have people editorially picked things will have you be able to say [TS]

01:00:39   songs you don't want to hear again or songs that you do like and don't like all that technology is there [TS]

01:00:44   and once that's there like you know you've got the buying music [TS]

01:00:48   and now you've got the listen to the radio to listen to the radio starts to have almost all the advantages in fact sort [TS]

01:00:53   of enters the buying is doesn't have which is you surprised it's going to come next you're going to discover new music [TS]

01:00:57   that way [TS]

01:00:58   and you know the business model is different is not free with interminable as you have to pay some money for it [TS]

01:01:03   or you know our i Tunes does have I don't have ADD it's not paid here frightens radio on even though it's hot [TS]

01:01:09   and i Tunes Match if you pay for i Tunes Match You don't get ad i Tunes Radio. [TS]

01:01:12   Yeah but anyway it's as you know it's streaming [TS]

01:01:17   but it's streaming with many many of the advantages of purchasing music so it seems like it was almost inevitable that [TS]

01:01:22   like radio some popular wherever Why were people willing to put up with that crap while it was a nice way to Ambien we [TS]

01:01:27   have music on the go [TS]

01:01:28   and be surprised relatively no it wasn't just Standards Real Well we had no real turn it really was always been the [TS]

01:01:36   idea that like somehow purchasing music of your own would completely replace any kind of broadcast medium that was [TS]

01:01:41   never going to happen and it was clear the streaming would be able to become the thing that is the day [TS]

01:01:46   and just beats And speaking of streaming everything people talk about how beats [TS]

01:01:50   and I decided earlier is so small in the stream market compared to the big players in the stream market [TS]

01:01:55   and even the headphones market I mean you know the big roll and big expensive headphones. [TS]

01:02:00   But in the grand scheme of things are things like Casey was getting at. [TS]

01:02:04   How much money is that a billion here a billion there are ample loses that it's over. [TS]

01:02:08   Right and so but when you're going to buy a company [TS]

01:02:12   and we talk about this with Facebook you want to buy it before you have to pay nineteen billion. [TS]

01:02:17   If you think a company is going to be a nineteen billion dollar company buy it [TS]

01:02:20   when you can get them for three billion and the like all the people saying why would they buy the small company. [TS]

01:02:26   You don't you know it's Buy low sell high or buy low sell never it's not wait until they're gigantic [TS]

01:02:32   and say oh I want to buy the number one streaming company has a bay trying to buy you know the number one streaming [TS]

01:02:37   company ever that is spotify this point will probably cost them more [TS]

01:02:40   and it's not this is a safer bet because like it's a three billion dollars if it goes out that beats fizzled out [TS]

01:02:46   because fashion things often do it ends up not being Calvin Klein [TS]

01:02:49   but it ends up being like I don't know the Swatch watch or something something else from the eighty's come it came [TS]

01:02:56   and went as that happened the fashion all the time. Hey you're only out three billion dollars no big deal right. [TS]

01:03:03   Also I mean this is probably a much smaller concern but it might it might grow to be a bigger one. [TS]

01:03:09   Beats is on all the platforms. [TS]

01:03:11   Early for android I mean who cares I wouldn't know [TS]

01:03:13   but it's on you know so beats might be a way I don't think Apple would ever swallow its pride [TS]

01:03:18   and bring i Tunes to Android. [TS]

01:03:21   But but having beats radio whatever What's the music service called it's called beats but beats music. [TS]

01:03:27   Yes speech means of it I don't think Apple would be opposed to keeping beat music on Android to maintaining [TS]

01:03:33   and growing their business there too so it's a way for them to you know for their music streaming business to to be to [TS]

01:03:41   get as many people as possible. [TS]

01:03:42   I Tunes for Windows I mean that's the precedent is sometimes in some businesses Apple wants to be in you have to be on [TS]

01:03:49   other platforms. [TS]

01:03:51   If you want to be seventy cent market share of digital music players you need ideas for Windows [TS]

01:03:55   and if Apple ever wants to be some big number market share in streaming. There had been a plot. [TS]

01:04:02   Where is Beats music available is it only in the States. [TS]

01:04:05   I think so so it's a very young service that usually the streaming services start out in one country [TS]

01:04:12   and they broaden as they can negotiate the rights everywhere else. [TS]

01:04:15   Beach has only been around for a few months right it's a very young service launched at the end of January. Yeah. [TS]

01:04:21   So it's I'm I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure that's not really that much of a concern right now I'm sure if if Apple [TS]

01:04:28   really is buying Beats that they will make it available worldwide as soon as they can negotiate all that [TS]

01:04:33   and I don't think that this is going to come inherently with the deal to be to negotiate already I have a feeling [TS]

01:04:39   there's got to be a clause in the contract that says that they are that they get renegotiated on acquisition. [TS]

01:04:43   But yeah I should also point out that beats apparently was M O G E. [TS]

01:04:47   Way back when an M O G was available is available or was available in the US and Australia [TS]

01:04:53   but I believe Peter's only available to us. I think you're right but we don't build the world what tell us more. [TS]

01:05:00   Our next monster Lynda dot com L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

01:05:05   when The dot com helps you learn to keep up to date with your software pick up brand new skills [TS]

01:05:10   or explore new hobbies with easy to follow video tutorials. What do you want to learn a new programming language. [TS]

01:05:16   Create a graceful user experience for your website were here first code up [TS]

01:05:19   and running with a just to see Lynda dot com offers thousands of video courses in a variety of topics over twenty four [TS]

01:05:26   hundred courses taught by industry experts and add more every week. [TS]

01:05:30   When the dot com works with software companies to provide you with updated training the same day new versions hit the [TS]

01:05:35   market. So you're always up to speed with things like the new version of Photoshop or Illustrator or final cut. [TS]

01:05:40   They have all these courses on applications programming languages all the stuff [TS]

01:05:45   and this is for all experience levels whether you're a beginner or advanced. [TS]

01:05:49   They have all this available for one low monthly price of just twenty five dollars a month. [TS]

01:05:55   They get you unlimited access to the entire Linda dot com library. [TS]

01:06:00   So you can if you want you can be like me and learn P.H.P. They have a course on your website with P.H.P. [TS]

01:06:07   You can learn everything from using P.H.P. [TS]

01:06:09   A web page to building applications for Facebook because you know the you know I once heard a wise programmer say the [TS]

01:06:17   world needs more P.H.P. What if you want to go with common wisdom like Casey and there are no J. S. [TS]

01:06:24   They have that as well you can learn to create entire jobs for publications with no J.S. [TS]

01:06:28   Right and [TS]

01:06:29   when the dot com They even have courses right there are new stuff like that even of courses on Britain doing so you can [TS]

01:06:35   learn how to manage your perceived online and off with personal branding strategies. [TS]

01:06:40   Oh my God I'm hoping they put that in there knowing how to relate that will find out if you can use [TS]

01:06:47   or you can learn it [TS]

01:06:48   and come along with a lot of more useful stuff like programming so you can bring they have new stuff at Iowa seven new [TS]

01:06:55   new you know everything is new S.T.K. New video I'm sure this fall will have a new video you can even explore as P. [TS]

01:07:03   Dot net If you want to join Katie at his day job. [TS]

01:07:06   You can learn the structure behind robust if you don't have applications and the tools you need to manage data [TS]

01:07:12   and establish real time web connections with a cork they call up and running with after net a sorry speed up net. [TS]

01:07:19   That would not be very useful these days anyway so when the dot com L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

01:07:28   and You can start a free seven day trial once again it's twenty five bucks a month after that gets you access to the [TS]

01:07:35   entire catalog unlimited access to everything I've learned things about logic [TS]

01:07:39   and audio editing there for editing the show [TS]

01:07:42   and look at the few things about some of the languages I was interested in so really this is a very good service. [TS]

01:07:46   The videos are top notch they're really professionally made they have nice little by a trench on the side you can [TS]

01:07:51   scroll around you can see it right there in the transcript it's amazing you know watching on an i Phone [TS]

01:07:55   or an i Pad really great stuff. When the dot com L Y N D A dot com slash eight. Thanks a lot. [TS]

01:08:02   OK so there's been some interesting developments in the javascript world lately. There have. [TS]

01:08:07   Yes like you doesn't even read my Twitter feed or the show. No I've been a little busy. [TS]

01:08:14   Oh protest is going to ship this year. So why bother Halo anyway. All right. [TS]

01:08:20   So there's been some interesting motion and web kid in Javascript [TS]

01:08:24   and it's funny because I put a link in the show notes and put it in the chat [TS]

01:08:29   and it's about how Jarvis excuse me what kid is leveraging L L V M to do some optimizations [TS]

01:08:38   and we get into what that means in just a second. [TS]

01:08:39   But it's funny because in the show notes I knew that one [TS]

01:08:42   or both of you probably just mark I was going to get snarky about javascript. [TS]

01:08:46   And so when the show notes I have transcript optimization work easing L.T.M. [TS]

01:08:50   Which is the link then in the show notes I have or in our show notes I have. [TS]

01:08:54   When do we realize that javascript is for real. Marco explain to us how this is works worse than H H B M. [TS]

01:09:00   And I don't want to go there yet but start thinking so what the crap are we talking about. [TS]

01:09:04   So I'm a little fuzzy on the boundaries and I and John interrupt me whenever you're ready. [TS]

01:09:08   But basically when you run Java Script in Web Kit there are different stages of compilation [TS]

01:09:14   and in turn for Taishan that the Java Script will go through. [TS]

01:09:18   So at first crack it'll just run the Java Script interpreted which is which is very quick to get going [TS]

01:09:24   but not terribly efficient because it doesn't look for ways to make the code that other people have written to be a [TS]

01:09:31   little leaner and a little more efficient. [TS]

01:09:33   If your code if any bit of code runs so many times that it crosses a threshold and this is where I started. [TS]

01:09:40   If I see it it will do you like a kind of quickie compilation into native code is that right John. Going off the rails. [TS]

01:09:50   You are such a broad generalities but they're OK. Well let's keep a broad and that's fine. Good call. [TS]

01:09:56   So basically with time you can go through. [TS]

01:10:00   Stages where each further stage requires a little bit more up front work in some cases a lot more up front work [TS]

01:10:08   but the results are that much quicker [TS]

01:10:11   and the final stage was after the final status should say the developer started paying themselves well you know what we [TS]

01:10:20   really should optimize this code that we've generated so we've taken Java Script [TS]

01:10:23   and kind of translated into a different kind of code. [TS]

01:10:26   We should try to optimize this really well because if you've gotten all the way down this path this is something that [TS]

01:10:32   we feel like is running a lot. Oh and to be clear Web Kit is the rendering engine that's used in Safari chrome. [TS]

01:10:38   So if you got all the way to stage three which is the maximum stage up until now then you're running this code a lot [TS]

01:10:45   and where it's already made as quick as can be without some serious optimizations. [TS]

01:10:49   Well they thought All right well let's optimize this code instruction to cut things out that we don't need kind of like [TS]

01:10:54   P three S. If you will. And so then they decide weighted colossi. Now OK fair enough now to get here be amazing. [TS]

01:11:03   Give me time to get there. [TS]

01:11:06   So they decided well you know what there's another project that's really really really good [TS]

01:11:10   and that is about optimizing and that's L O V M which is half of the client our V.M. Compilation combo. [TS]

01:11:17   And so they thought well why don't we just leverage L O V M to do this optimization for us [TS]

01:11:24   and so if you've got java script that runs in Web Kit so often that it escalates all the way to all the way to this [TS]

01:11:30   fourth level or fourth tier I believe they call it compile a compilation optimization. [TS]

01:11:37   In theory it will get optimized the same way a native object of C. [TS]

01:11:41   Code gets gets optimized and so in principle it should run pretty darn fast. OK that's that's the set up John. [TS]

01:11:49   Go ahead and tear me apart [TS]

01:11:51   or add what you have to add here though I would have summarized it because I don't have I don't have the thing in front [TS]

01:11:56   of me so I don't know the details of the thing but if they had all the points but. [TS]

01:12:00   For people who want the even shorter summary of it it's basically a java script comes out of the bunch of text [TS]

01:12:07   and you have to you have a trait to things you have the balance here. [TS]

01:12:11   One is how fast can I start running code and second is how fast is that code when I run it [TS]

01:12:16   and that's an important area because if you have some tiny little snippet of Javascript you don't want to wait like you [TS]

01:12:22   know I'm going to make of numbers here these are real but you know no wait a second to start running it [TS]

01:12:27   and then run the code for like a tenth of a second. That's a waste. [TS]

01:12:30   You want to start running immediately right and that continuum exists. [TS]

01:12:33   They have had three tiers previously to do this we can run code immediately [TS]

01:12:38   but I could be that fast we can take a little bit longer [TS]

01:12:40   and then the code will be a little bit faster we think even longer than that and it'll be really fast [TS]

01:12:43   and they're adding a fourth tier this is the F T L is a fourth tier. [TS]

01:12:49   Some of that is I'm looking back you know fourth tier L.L. V.M. [TS]

01:12:57   Forth here all the on the journeyman Twitter that you know and people think F.T.L. [TS]

01:13:01   I think best in light obviously the but the secret internal code name might as well be as far as I'm concerned. [TS]

01:13:07   F this language because they have already had they already had existing three tiers of figuring out how to power can we [TS]

01:13:14   run this language you know fast we want to start running immediately and also how to run fast [TS]

01:13:19   and figure out which one of these two years ago. [TS]

01:13:21   That's the trade off they're making in the fourth tier is all right for code that you know we've gone through all three [TS]

01:13:27   of those other two years and we still want to go faster [TS]

01:13:29   and this is just in the speed the code that's running you know it's running all the time is in some tight loop it's [TS]

01:13:34   using a lot of C.P.U. [TS]

01:13:36   We will take a huge amount of time relatively speaking [TS]

01:13:39   and figure out how to compile it with our actual compiler are actual you know the their core compilers [TS]

01:13:44   and all the end system and the tricky part of this and the reason why I say it's F. [TS]

01:13:48   This language is because all along those three tiers you don't want to stop [TS]

01:13:52   and be like OK we compiled everything with a really fast when the starts running stuff immediately. [TS]

01:13:56   But it's kind of slow when it's running you know we got running really fast but kind of slow when it's. [TS]

01:14:00   Running we would like to for this function in this function is function use the second tier. [TS]

01:14:04   You can't pause the world and say wait a second wait a second. [TS]

01:14:07   Turns out these two functions are called LOT I want to take a little some time here to compile this in a faster former [TS]

01:14:13   run it you can't pause execution of a kill your your performance you have to sort of you know the old programmer [TS]

01:14:19   analogy you have to swap the engine while the airplane is in the air right. [TS]

01:14:24   So you have to let everything run along and make an optimized version of this thing. [TS]

01:14:28   Another thread in the background and swap it in for the new [TS]

01:14:30   and always on line in the same thing with the L V M thing the forth here is it's going to take you a long time to [TS]

01:14:36   compile what you know you finds out something you think is running so much you really want to be super fast we're going [TS]

01:14:40   to spend the time to compile this what their actual compiler. [TS]

01:14:44   You cannot pause execution that's going on you have to compile it with the compiler and then [TS]

01:14:49   when it's ready swap it in. [TS]

01:14:51   And this technology responding in the faster versions of functions take longer to compile they already had more [TS]

01:14:55   or less [TS]

01:14:56   and forth here is more difficult because what they're compiling is like L V M As you say compiling it's more static [TS]

01:15:02   languages like C. C. [TS]

01:15:03   Plus plus where variables don't change their type for example and where you know the type of things up front [TS]

01:15:09   and they had to put in they have to make a pile version they can sort of self modify they say OK well it turns out this [TS]

01:15:15   optimization [TS]

01:15:16   or this assumption is violated so bump back down to one of the slower version that has the more dynamic properties up [TS]

01:15:22   with turns out this we don't actually know the type of this is actually a different type now swap in a different type [TS]

01:15:27   there that you can read the article which appear in the show as it is very long a very complicated [TS]

01:15:30   but this is the center of it. [TS]

01:15:31   The trick they're doing is they're doing this tradeoff between how fast can we start running how fast we run [TS]

01:15:36   and they're doing this thing all in parallel where they don't stop the running of the program to swap in the faster [TS]

01:15:41   versions [TS]

01:15:42   and finally in the fourth tier they're shoving in a much more rigidly optimized version in the hopes that all their [TS]

01:15:48   assumptions about their version will be correct and when they're not correct they have fallbacks [TS]

01:15:52   and it's a really great article in the same sense as the back place thing telling you the internals of like how they'd [TS]

01:15:58   decided to do something. It's great insight into how do you make javascript faster centrally. [TS]

01:16:06   How do you ask this language and how do you apply like brains and engineering experience [TS]

01:16:11   and say we're going to make javascript fast I don't care a terrible language clear incredibly resistant optimization. [TS]

01:16:18   We're just going to throw engineering resources at it until we get bason and same thing with a Ph D. M. [TS]

01:16:24   If you have enough money and enough anything resource and you can make any language you know [TS]

01:16:29   and that's what they're doing they're just you know and it's an amazing engineering feat [TS]

01:16:33   and by the way the other job script engines used by Firefox and you know [TS]

01:16:38   but Chrome is doing with their V eight engine Google's doing in the V eight engine [TS]

01:16:42   and by the way Casey said that a web that is used by chrome it's not that's blank now which is for the web give it [TS]

01:16:47   anyway. Right right right. [TS]

01:16:49   They're all they all have similar things to this they all have they all have to make the same exact tradeoff how do we [TS]

01:16:54   start running immediately but also be able to run the thing that runs a lot faster [TS]

01:16:58   and they do similar similar type of things are tracing execution seeing which things around frequently compiling them [TS]

01:17:03   into a faster form [TS]

01:17:04   and slopping them in like this is not an amazing breakthrough from Apple that no it is unprecedented in the job is [TS]

01:17:09   going to be we have tons of really smart people all trying to make jobs faster and as your question Casey Wian [TS]

01:17:16   when you realized I was get this for real I think everyone realizes we're stuck with it. [TS]

01:17:21   Like maybe Google is trying to make that like it's in web browsers everywhere [TS]

01:17:26   and so that's why we're like well we're just going to have to make it faster and we're trying to make her better [TS]

01:17:30   but that's a slow process you have to wait for all the Web browsers to turn over and to get a new version of a risk [TS]

01:17:35   or proven it's just such a long time line it's like Java Script is what we've got is it for real. [TS]

01:17:41   Well it's what we're stuck with and so we're just going to do what we can to make it best [TS]

01:17:44   and I think everybody who is into dynamic programming languages pick your favorite you know P.H.P. Perl Python Ruby. [TS]

01:17:53   We all wish that we had the engineering resources put towards our favorite language to make it fast because it suffers [TS]

01:17:59   from all the same hard. [TS]

01:18:00   It's about you know typeless variables or dynamic types [TS]

01:18:03   or things that you know could be faster it's like man can you imagine how fast like Python would run if it has this [TS]

01:18:10   amount of engineering resources or a Ruby a pearl or I mean P.H.P. [TS]

01:18:14   Is kind of getting some amount of resources thrown at it by at least by one company. [TS]

01:18:17   So it's interesting not so much because it's novel [TS]

01:18:21   but just because you can see Apple doing what it does best which is great engineering the Web good team is very skilled [TS]

01:18:27   and yes they're doing something similar to other people dumb but in a slightly different way [TS]

01:18:31   and it's smart of them to leverage the compiler that they've sort of brought up to be a world class compiler which is [TS]

01:18:38   it's open source other people could have use L V M as well [TS]

01:18:40   and I think I saw a lot of people who pooing L V M saying words to slow you can't use that for just [TS]

01:18:45   and I'm going no you can't you have to save it for the bits that you really know are going to be running quickly [TS]

01:18:49   and you have to be able to swap them in and they did some clever changes to L V M itself to make this happen. [TS]

01:18:54   Which is nice when you're kind of steering The L.V.N. [TS]

01:18:56   Product as well so I think if we did I don't know whether to give a standing ovation or weep [TS]

01:19:03   and a standing ovation a big good job guys this is great engineering and you know it's interesting. [TS]

01:19:07   Great blog post about it. [TS]

01:19:09   Thumbs up you know I like jobs for being faster [TS]

01:19:12   and we have to say you guys have got to go to heroic measures to make jobs fast [TS]

01:19:17   and why give us the language we're all stuck with. [TS]

01:19:20   So I guess I've turned a new leaf in my appreciation for javascript because in so many ways it really is a terrible [TS]

01:19:29   terrible language and I forget the name of the Gary Barnhart did a great literally two [TS]

01:19:35   or three minute video about how Java Script and Ruby are really kind of wonky and we'll put a link in the show notes [TS]

01:19:45   but be that as it may I feel like Javascript like it or not whether [TS]

01:19:52   or not it academically a good language it is just like you said it's here [TS]

01:19:57   and this is a real this is the real deal in work. [TS]

01:20:00   This is what we're using and or what we're using for certain things and certain times [TS]

01:20:04   and I just come back to I've started to write a lot or do a lot more dominant elation my day job with javascript and J. [TS]

01:20:12   Query [TS]

01:20:13   and the things you can get done are really really impressive with not so much code I wrote not a lot of code to get my [TS]

01:20:20   blogging engine going Now granted I stood on the work of many other people in a lot of code that they wrote [TS]

01:20:26   but I did write that much [TS]

01:20:27   and I feel like in this is the same guy Gary Barnard did a really great talk about the birth and death of javascript [TS]

01:20:33   or put that in the show notes this one is about half an hour but it's worth it. [TS]

01:20:36   And really I agree that javascript is academically just a terrible language in so many ways [TS]

01:20:44   but at what point do we realize you know what it's good enough. [TS]

01:20:49   And to me I don't see why it's that terribly different than P.H.P. [TS]

01:20:55   Which in some ways is far superior academically but really in the same boat. [TS]

01:21:01   You know it's kind of slow or slow enough that you need to be M. To make it quick. [TS]

01:21:06   So Mark I'm trolling but I'm also one hundred forty asking you like how do you feel like P.H.P. [TS]

01:21:12   and Javascript are not very similar. Why or why do you like it so much. No why do you like P.H.P. [TS]

01:21:18   So much I'm not talk about the particulars of the language why do you like P.H.P. [TS]

01:21:20   So much why do you snicker so much of javascript. He is actually a pretty C. Like language. [TS]

01:21:28   There's a lot that I like about that is that is because it resembles the way C. [TS]

01:21:33   Works and not at the low level of course but conceptually syntactically some of a lot of the direct mapping to C. [TS]

01:21:40   Libraries that are that are available within it stuff like that. I like that about it. [TS]

01:21:44   I like that everywhere it is way faster than javascript even like five years ago when it was way past [TS]

01:21:51   and like even before. Just inherently it is it is possible to make way faster I think. [TS]

01:22:00   Enough about to say that for sure but it at least always has been WAY faster [TS]

01:22:03   and like no one has ever really complained that oh my god or P.H.P. [TS]

01:22:07   My server is too slow except Facebook only because they have a billion servers so it actually matters for them. [TS]

01:22:13   But P.H.P. In general is has always been very fast. [TS]

01:22:16   There's lots of other problems with it but but performance is never been one of them [TS]

01:22:20   and you know obviously it's not as fast as like C. or A really fancy compiler like like the way the M. [TS]

01:22:26   Can can make it super optimized and just component thing [TS]

01:22:30   but it's a really fast four for what it is so I don't see a whole lot of parallels here honestly except that they're [TS]

01:22:37   both academically bad languages that we are stuck with by ubiquity. That's a very good point. Or by familiarity. [TS]

01:22:45   You know I I still like I don't like to me. I still don't look forward to having to use javascript to do anything. [TS]

01:22:53   I try to avoid it or possible even on even on the web. [TS]

01:22:57   I will use it sparingly [TS]

01:23:00   and I certainly have never been tempted by node because of the language that it is like I like the idea of a node of [TS]

01:23:08   its structure and its event driven system. [TS]

01:23:11   I don't like the transfer of language at all [TS]

01:23:13   and so I've That's why I've never been tempted by it can it can I try to tempt you for a moment. Yeah sure. [TS]

01:23:19   So the temptation to get you into javascript is that it lets you run your code on other people's computers instead of [TS]

01:23:26   your servers and let you make your servers act more like boring transaction processes that send [TS]

01:23:30   and receive Jaison response like restful requests [TS]

01:23:34   and it's kind of refreshing that someone has sort of gone from the server side programming to the client side [TS]

01:23:39   programming through throughout the history of the web to suddenly be able to run all your crap on someone else's [TS]

01:23:44   computer their computer is way faster than your server. [TS]

01:23:46   Way faster than the proportion of the of your server that they're going to get right. [TS]

01:23:50   They're not going to get your entire server they get one thousandth of a Depending on how people hitting and [TS]

01:23:55   and there's a lot of freedom in that and then it lets you write your server in a more. [TS]

01:24:00   Our sort of structured boring way where it is just like you ended just writing an A.P.I. [TS]

01:24:07   That doesn't make the language any better [TS]

01:24:09   but it is kind of an interesting change if you think a Web development is all I have to write things on the server that [TS]

01:24:14   spit out H.T.M.L. To my clients with a little bit javascript and changing it to. [TS]

01:24:18   I send my clients something once and they run a persistent javascript application that talks to my server through A.P.I. [TS]

01:24:24   and Point to just talk [TS]

01:24:25   and data that is it's a refreshing trencher of development I may make you think on it less harshly. [TS]

01:24:33   I mean that's certainly that's certainly interesting and there are some benefits to that. [TS]

01:24:37   By all means that you know I'm not denying that at all. [TS]

01:24:40   Specially with with modern brothers Apoorva things like pushing on to the U.R.L. [TS]

01:24:44   Bars without actually making a request so that like you can kind of you can like take over the back [TS]

01:24:48   but a new kind of simulator hierarchy without actually causing page reload stuff like that there are a lot of benefits [TS]

01:24:53   to that to a lot of different location types but I hardly write web applications anymore. [TS]

01:24:58   I hardly ever thing to begin with and you know usually like I write web back ends and then I started writing i O. [TS]

01:25:04   West Front Ends and my web applications have always been like all do the minimum required to get the job done. [TS]

01:25:12   But as I mention in the past [TS]

01:25:14   and I'm really not I'm not into it OK I'm not driven to make an amazing web front end for anything I don't care if you [TS]

01:25:23   ever needed one though since you have to read the bag and stalk your i OS app you've already got a back [TS]

01:25:28   and it's ready for your jobs are about to talk to. Like you wouldn't have to. [TS]

01:25:31   You wouldn't have to you know duplicate that code in like having direct queries from your P.H.P. [TS]

01:25:35   To your database that does the same thing with the A.P.I. [TS]

01:25:38   and Point like you did if you do it once for your i OS app you can use that same back end if you've done a good job to [TS]

01:25:42   do to do your web friends as well and that would save you some time. [TS]

01:25:46   Right and one of the things one of the things I like and like in overcast I'm actually using a C.D.N. [TS]

01:25:53   For part of the A.P.I. As a way to and thinking well you know what A.P.I. Requests can be cashable at the C.D.'s. [TS]

01:26:00   They're so it's like it's another layer of caching that is both faster for a client to access [TS]

01:26:05   and doesn't involve many hits to my server [TS]

01:26:08   and so that makes killing a lot easier because not every single request will hit me. [TS]

01:26:14   And so like you know it from looking at it from a job your perspective that could be useful there too like if I can [TS]

01:26:19   pull you know feeder episode data off of the C.D.N. [TS]

01:26:23   Because like you know a feed to matter who's looking at it has the same episodes [TS]

01:26:26   and it might have different you know different progress different settings of like that [TS]

01:26:31   but you know the episode list itself is shared data and they can do with that [TS]

01:26:38   but I just I don't see myself putting that much effort into the Web site I think so I'm I'm a bad example to even to be [TS]

01:26:45   asking this question too [TS]

01:26:46   but I don't like I see this this whole thing with with Josh about MS ation is a really technically interesting progress [TS]

01:26:56   and solution to a problem I just don't care about [TS]

01:26:59   and that I don't really personally have very often I don't even use very many like heavy javascript web apps like I [TS]

01:27:06   Google Maps on the web but that's it like I don't use G. [TS]

01:27:08   Mail I don't use a whole lot of like crazy web stuff like that so I don't even. [TS]

01:27:14   This will benefit a lot of people but not me. [TS]

01:27:16   I will definitely benefit because the bottleneck on mobile clients still is javascript execution speed. [TS]

01:27:23   You don't think it is you think oh this page is loading slowly but javascript tons of it everywhere [TS]

01:27:28   and the speed of job as best you can on mobile phones is still a limiting factor. [TS]

01:27:33   I mean just compare the render times on desktop versus you know it's not like over the same connection dust operates as [TS]

01:27:38   mobile phones are getting faster but in Javascript is not you know it's difficult optimized look at all these things [TS]

01:27:44   and optimize it so I you'll benefit from it as a user more [TS]

01:27:46   and more than a developer perhaps you know if they do a good job it should again not in web view is probably because we [TS]

01:27:52   assume this is called and it only be in Safari [TS]

01:27:54   but hey at least in mobile Safari things will get a little bit faster like in some respects what Apple is doing. [TS]

01:28:00   There's just the cost of being in the web browser business if you want to be if you want to be in this business which [TS]

01:28:04   is we make a web rendering engine and Apple does want to and should be in it. [TS]

01:28:08   You've got to keep up with the Joneses and you know competition is good and ever [TS]

01:28:11   and getting faster along the same rate. [TS]

01:28:14   So I you know I think you will benefit from it [TS]

01:28:17   and if you don't think you will try loading the same web page pick one of these web pages that you think doesn't use [TS]

01:28:21   any javascript to speak of loaded in in a web view which for simply run without the Appalachians [TS]

01:28:26   and then loaded in mobiles far in this time [TS]

01:28:28   and see which one takes longer before you can interact with the page before it renders I think you'll be able to [TS]

01:28:32   measure a difference with a stopwatch. [TS]

01:28:34   Now John out of curiosity you I didn't think you did very much front and development at your day job. [TS]

01:28:42   So what is the stack that you use are using like angular [TS]

01:28:45   or something like that I know you're using both the full stack developer Casey to me [TS]

01:28:50   but I caught in the resumes that we need a full stack developer anyway. [TS]

01:28:54   Web development as a legit rock star as being a web developer means you like in most places they don't have these [TS]

01:29:04   regimented roles where you are back and in your front [TS]

01:29:06   and you're like you end up having to learn everything the whole stack it's not it's not a ridiculous term to say call [TS]

01:29:13   stack developer. I've used a lot of different frameworks. [TS]

01:29:16   The thing about javascript that people love [TS]

01:29:18   and hate is that like the framework that's popular now will not be popular in eighteen months as it's a lot of churn. [TS]

01:29:24   There's a lot of sort of the Cambridge explosion of different species him are hoping there's some sort of his holiday [TS]

01:29:31   but it never seems to come so it is it is a young and vibrant community [TS]

01:29:35   and yeah I've tried a lot of the ones that are out there a certain point you have to commit to one library [TS]

01:29:41   or framework or a set of them and then use them for a long period of time [TS]

01:29:44   and then the next thing you do will go through the same process [TS]

01:29:47   and you make different choices including new things that didn't exist when you made the first choice. [TS]

01:29:51   So so what's the flavour of the month over it where you are. Well I mean J. [TS]

01:29:56   Query seems to have more or less won out over. [TS]

01:30:00   The alternatives all the alternatives are still out there and people still like them so it hasn't totally squash and [TS]

01:30:04   but Jake where is fairly dominant in the realm of let me manipulate the DOM without crying thing. [TS]

01:30:11   Underscore and backbone. [TS]

01:30:13   I'm not so they have their individual market sewn up but they seem to be pretty popular these days. [TS]

01:30:20   Yeah well so that's why you hate javascript so much they take away some of the pain like in the same you know Jake [TS]

01:30:26   Weary as I like the yet very little I've hardly used it honestly I used to carry very little. [TS]

01:30:31   I just haven't had the need to like most of my Dom stuff is simple and I just use the DOM straight for it. [TS]

01:30:38   Yeah so the use is down straight used to be a nightmare because of I.E. [TS]

01:30:41   Right and maybe you miss those days [TS]

01:30:42   but like I've never cared about the poor part of the big selling point initially of God I got it on the eight thousand [TS]

01:30:49   things they have to do to the DOM directly because the abs are just so incredibly different semantically in different [TS]

01:30:54   function names and everything is like I need something to paper over that and these days the dye you know are more [TS]

01:31:02   or less the same on all popular browsers. [TS]

01:31:04   You still don't want to use them directly because you want to do stuff like you C.S.S. [TS]

01:31:07   Like there's disliked elements [TS]

01:31:08   and you're relying on Jake Reed to do something fast it's kind of like using a database we're like oh I can just have [TS]

01:31:13   arbitrary C.S.S. [TS]

01:31:14   Like you're going to do a query and I'll get the elements that I want and my problems are all soft not like that. [TS]

01:31:18   The honeymoon period J. Query like the query plan of the makes for life choices. [TS]

01:31:23   You said I'm going to write now Little do you know get elements like last name which is native [TS]

01:31:27   and then assume after Does that it will do no it is not the query optimizer [TS]

01:31:32   and again it has to the same tradeoff Trafford tween start doing what you asked me to do right now [TS]

01:31:37   or spend time thinking about what you asked me to do come up with a really awesome plan and execute that [TS]

01:31:41   and so like in a database you have to learn well you can write this expression in J. [TS]

01:31:45   Grab you Total be ten times faster if you split up into two degree selectors [TS]

01:31:50   or if you use native Dom to get these elements then you Jake we're on them [TS]

01:31:53   and anyway I think I've lost my thread with one string and yesterday Greg the question was what what. [TS]

01:32:00   These your framework or framework steals your at the moment you had mentioned underscore and J. [TS]

01:32:05   Query and one other one that is backbone for you know what else are we using that's talking to David Smith [TS]

01:32:12   or a different underscore an underscore Yeah most people don't like that show them are often very different circles. [TS]

01:32:19   And the other thing is like how do you modularized javascript because the designers were kind of not to include name [TS]

01:32:26   spaces just like some of the language we are all familiar with the various conventions for defining javascript modules [TS]

01:32:34   are standardized into the model that the necklace thing or not but anyway does require J.S. [TS]

01:32:39   Which is sort of empty like modules and there's no it's not all system with actually is empty I believe in [TS]

01:32:44   and they're sort of half compatible with shims [TS]

01:32:47   and this whole practice of how do I write javascript application drowsing of application by writing a big long single [TS]

01:32:54   Di J.S. File from top to bottom right. It's not P.H.P. [TS]

01:32:58   Would either way are you going to do it in modules and head of the modules that require each other [TS]

01:33:03   and integrate with each other and stay out of each other's name spaces [TS]

01:33:07   and you know that's I mean he's married with a because he's done a little bit of the node stuff [TS]

01:33:11   but that's what modern Java Script looks like these days and it's not great [TS]

01:33:15   but you can every part of it if you squint at it you're like yeah I kind of see why if you're going to write a serious [TS]

01:33:20   application you need something that does this and you need something that does that [TS]

01:33:23   and if you manipulate Adamu be nice to have something like Jake where they can paper over some of the things for you [TS]

01:33:27   and and rights inconveniences and if you want to go really insane it's about was the media [TS]

01:33:33   or thing with the lets you query the database directly from javascript which seems like a terrible idea to me [TS]

01:33:39   but anyway there's lots of interesting things out there [TS]

01:33:42   and for an angular are the cool things that I've only vaguely looked at is not used to do anything serious in every [TS]

01:33:49   case you can write an X. [TS]

01:33:50   Blog engine using one of those and belt out a couple co-workers using angular and have very good things to say about [TS]

01:33:56   and I'd like to check out react both react and Javascript. [TS]

01:34:00   In reactive cocoa but I have the time [TS]

01:34:03   and should know that I was going to say the other one the other reason that javascript is really appealing to me which [TS]

01:34:08   will mean nothing to Marco is that in my day job I tend to work on top of content management systems things like Share [TS]

01:34:18   Point although not always share point in a recent project we did we did we did it using this really not awesome [TS]

01:34:25   cloudbase to manage a system where we had not a lot of control over what C.M.S. [TS]

01:34:31   Was doing [TS]

01:34:32   and so kind of management system if you're not familiar basically means it's easy for a regular schmo to go in an add [TS]

01:34:38   an edit the things that are on the Web site. So in our case we had this cloud based C.M.S. [TS]

01:34:43   That we really couldn't do all that much to and so what we ended up doing was basically just making an A.P.I. [TS]

01:34:50   To get data in and out of its database and then hitting that with Java Script with J. [TS]

01:34:55   Query with handle bars which is a templating engine [TS]

01:34:58   and in that situation was great because it I couldn't do a lot of the things that I would have otherwise chosen to do [TS]

01:35:05   server side. [TS]

01:35:07   So just like John was saying earlier I push that to the client and it actually worked out really really well [TS]

01:35:11   and that's that's that was the beginning of perhaps not my love affair with javascript that's [TS]

01:35:16   when I started to turn the corner from Marco's point of view of this is crap to you know what this actually can be [TS]

01:35:22   pretty good if you're using it for the right reasons as it oh I forgot to mention handlebars mustached guy was have [TS]

01:35:28   templating said his all which I think terrible but they have like people always looking for a speaking of node. [TS]

01:35:34   Like you don't want to duplicate code of the client side the service side [TS]

01:35:36   and if you write any serious job was your double cation you end up having to do that like what if we just use [TS]

01:35:41   javascript on the server side. Plus you know nodes S. [TS]

01:35:44   Then we can do the same go to clients our answer is I would have a civil case and what if we had you know [TS]

01:35:49   and then you well I want to thank him playing system clients [TS]

01:35:51   and servers I do so they came up with these terrible templating system using multiple curly braces that I hate because [TS]

01:35:55   they're so why do you hate them. You know many template systems that have been in peril. [TS]

01:36:00   Like a line of ours [TS]

01:36:01   and we've got all the way past the like this is like my first temple I'm not an idea you know let's let you put [TS]

01:36:06   variables [TS]

01:36:07   and we don't have too much logic because they don't mix coding templates all make some kind of simple conditional [TS]

01:36:12   but no loops is OK I will have the loops and we only have a simple kind of [TS]

01:36:16   but I'll yell STOP make a ball in the check or you just present a flag like stomach we did this already [TS]

01:36:20   but I have two decades doing this. Never mind I'll figure it out in ten years I think. [TS]

01:36:27   What drives me nuts about about this what turns me off from learning a lot of this new web stack stuff is like [TS]

01:36:34   when you're talking about like I I was in the chat I've never heard of almost anything that we're talking about [TS]

01:36:39   somebody paste a link to react and so I looked at that [TS]

01:36:42   and for a second unlike reality we look at react it is not javascript it's react it's own thing like it Jake already is [TS]

01:36:50   kind of like that too. [TS]

01:36:51   Exactly exactly like that where like they add so much on top of the language [TS]

01:36:56   and they replace so much functionality with their own way of doing it that they become like a little sub language of [TS]

01:37:03   themselves like the language like when we haven't even started talking about like coffee script [TS]

01:37:08   and coffee typescript Yeah yeah right [TS]

01:37:11   and like if you if I were if I were to invest a whole bunch of my time learning quote javascript What does that include. [TS]

01:37:18   And you have all these late it seems like the Web developers these days are so happy to pile on a pretty large [TS]

01:37:25   framework in components pretty pretty complex stuff that replaces so much built in stuff that like you're really [TS]

01:37:32   develop or you're really a reactive Elop or you're really an extra helper and [TS]

01:37:36   and the problem is that changes quickly over time and and that fragments everything [TS]

01:37:41   and so like if I have a problem with something in in you know I O. S. Development using a vector C. [TS]

01:37:47   and The cocoa frameworks everyone's using that everyone using the same thing and it doesn't change over years [TS]

01:37:53   and years and years and so it's easy for me to like to both learned to master it and to fine. [TS]

01:38:00   Answers to questions I have about it because everyone's working with with the same base and with the same A.P.I. [TS]

01:38:07   Whereas if you go into the Web development world and C.S.S. [TS]

01:38:10   Has the same problem of all the crazy stuff they have all this other crazy frameworks they have going on C.S.S. [TS]

01:38:15   Javascript all this crazy stuff. [TS]

01:38:17   There are all these like bolt ons that all want to be radically different [TS]

01:38:21   and all want to provide like extremely rich functionality Well if you write three characters [TS]

01:38:26   and have a blocking engine and you like all this stuff and that it's it piles on so many layers and layers [TS]

01:38:33   and layers that it all feels not only very brittle [TS]

01:38:37   but you specialize your learning to this one little set of what you have [TS]

01:38:43   and you can be constantly updating your knowledge [TS]

01:38:45   and throwing away expertise to keep up with all the crazy new stuff it's always coming out with you know there's going [TS]

01:38:50   to be a new jobs or framework next week and after that like they're going to be a new C.F.O. [TS]

01:38:54   Compiler or the month after that like there's so many of these things and none of them are ever dominant. [TS]

01:39:00   J Query is a dominate and have of ever become and that's even pretty old buddy. [TS]

01:39:04   But to stay [TS]

01:39:07   and so you end up having such fragmented knowledge that you want to be like a master in you know liquid markup [TS]

01:39:14   or whatever you know one of these crazy things and like OK well the next year that's out of fashion [TS]

01:39:17   and you got to relearn everything from whatever is new then it's not as bad as you make it out to be because Jake where [TS]

01:39:22   is vastly more popular than Objective C. [TS]

01:39:25   In the grand scheme of things [TS]

01:39:26   and it's like what you end up doing is you pick the technologies for your current project [TS]

01:39:31   and you use them for your project and your current project is I'm making and I was up [TS]

01:39:34   and yes you're lucky that in Iowa technologies change much more slowly than I do in just a robot a certain point you [TS]

01:39:38   pick where you're going to use them I use core data and I can use our layout or whatever [TS]

01:39:42   and you may change your mind and evolve that product but [TS]

01:39:44   when you go your next Friday sale this one I'm going to use our layaway as are I'm going to use arc where previous [TS]

01:39:48   when I didn't. So it's a slow motion version of the same thing but in terms of like be able to find an answer. [TS]

01:39:54   Believe me you can finance a C.J. [TS]

01:39:55   Quick questions your background questions on his her questions like I mean you know there's enough. [TS]

01:40:00   Hilarity because the total market size of people who write web developers is so much bigger than the size of people [TS]

01:40:05   or I was that you'll be able to find the answers but you're right there is more turnover and less stability [TS]

01:40:09   but the analogy I would use in terms of building on top of things is first you learn C. [TS]

01:40:16   That will really help you understand Objective C. Be subject to C. Is essentially a program written in C. [TS]

01:40:20   The object of C. Runtime if you understand how C. Works and you can understand. [TS]

01:40:23   Check to see runtime work then you understand this new syntax it is basically like off a script to run you know I read [TS]

01:40:29   this crazy sex with square brackets and it calls the C. [TS]

01:40:31   Functions and of the runtime and the runtime is fairly small and understandable [TS]

01:40:35   and once you understand it like that's the layering and it's like oh no I'm not a C. Programmer Objective C. [TS]

01:40:40   Programmer you can go a bridge too far I would say things that are like source filters like coffee script [TS]

01:40:44   and stuff that maybe is taking it too far [TS]

01:40:47   and obviously you're not going to dive into one of those expecting to disappear [TS]

01:40:50   but at this point you're pretty sure Objective C. [TS]

01:40:52   Is not a flash in the pan fry with development and even though it's like based on C. and Is a C. [TS]

01:40:56   Runtime if anything it's evolving into a direction where that may not necessarily be the case if they can help it [TS]

01:41:02   but it's not much different than that. First you have to learn the job script language. [TS]

01:41:06   Without that you'll be lost in the same way you have to learn C. Before you know Objective C. [TS]

01:41:10   At least these days anyway and then you Bill you go and pop that and pick a library and a framework [TS]

01:41:16   and use it for an entire project and use it like A.F. [TS]

01:41:19   Networking is very popular in the Iowa space so for example using A.F. [TS]

01:41:23   Networking in overtasked I'm using the only part I'm using is the category that lets you load images off the network. [TS]

01:41:32   Because I just haven't had much of a reason to rewrite that but I actually like the old. [TS]

01:41:37   All this networking before I was seven. Made a lot more sense. It added a lot more value. New F. [TS]

01:41:42   Networking with the U.R.L. [TS]

01:41:44   Session stuff is such a thin layer on top that I actually don't think it's necessary for the most part [TS]

01:41:50   and I have my own like A.P.I. [TS]

01:41:53   Layer wrapper around my eyes so I can generalize things like you know what different return values me [TS]

01:41:58   and stuff like that and so. I read everything through that. [TS]

01:42:01   But so it's a little bit different you know I think is Tom's reason to use if not working [TS]

01:42:06   but I think if if what I presented was a vastly different interface like like reactive cocoa is something that I don't [TS]

01:42:13   know a lot about but I've seen a few things here and there about it [TS]

01:42:16   and reactive cocoa is very very different from the way you'd regularly write stuff [TS]

01:42:24   and to me that's a big risk because it's so different and it's so specialized [TS]

01:42:29   and so you know that that's not from the platform vendor like we're all talking about third party Things like to give [TS]

01:42:35   an example something that sort of from the platform vendor in Web parlance it would be like local storage where it's [TS]

01:42:39   like if you're deploying a web application for people with i Pads like hospital or something right [TS]

01:42:44   and you know they're all going to have i Pads [TS]

01:42:46   and Apple advocates storage to mobile Safari you have more confidence in that than you do in like I'm going to build [TS]

01:42:51   everything in a reactive cocoa even though it's awesome because one of the company that makes writing code goes out of [TS]

01:42:56   business whereas you know I worry about Apple going out of business because of it because you have bigger problems than [TS]

01:43:01   whether local storage and you know and I don't think that was the first [TS]

01:43:05   and I thought of I mean you made me this isn't a part of them as much as as much as I'm thinking but [TS]

01:43:10   but you know I generally like I don't I don't add a lot of third party code that requires dramatic changes in [TS]

01:43:16   everything I'm doing in something like I try to add things that are small [TS]

01:43:20   and thin like you know a self-contained utility functions like I had a thing called Lock Box which is a [TS]

01:43:26   and E.'s wrapper on the key changes which are terrible. [TS]

01:43:29   So if you like it it's a perfect thing to have like cocoa pod installed just given the size of the wrapper that's a [TS]

01:43:35   couple of files around this terrible A.P.I. So I can use it simply. [TS]

01:43:38   Done and done but the jobs are writing the same things but they've written them for you like it's like they're there. [TS]

01:43:44   There's also writing you know there's not a writing cocoa and so right. [TS]

01:43:50   But they're writing a different cocoa every six months but yeah I know but like [TS]

01:43:53   but if you pick the ones that you want to use again there's different cocoas for how am I going to lay out spring to [TS]

01:43:57   start our lay out how am I going do my did accorded a bunch of. [TS]

01:44:00   Found something like this always choices within the stack [TS]

01:44:02   and Apple keeps adding new choices granted it a slower pace [TS]

01:44:05   and with more definitive like this is officially supported in the javascript community [TS]

01:44:09   but it's not all that different and a lot of the things that you're writing yourself to get like the key chain A.P.I. [TS]

01:44:14   If you're doing the job was compiled someone of already written several different wrappers that you would have found a [TS]

01:44:19   reasonable one and you could if you like I think you'd be working it at a higher level and the job is super old. [TS]

01:44:25   It may be more confusing especially if you don't know which ones to pick or whatever [TS]

01:44:29   but a lot of the work you're doing with the model is like it's not like there are a quibble in Java Script frameworks [TS]

01:44:35   that multiple ones of them that have already had stood out and there have been one [TS]

01:44:38   or two ones that have sort of come out on top and you could use and you wouldn't have to do that [TS]

01:44:43   and you'd be like I'll just use Back when I had to write a few like it's already there for me or whatever. [TS]

01:44:48   Maybe when Mike it may be dry when yourself anyway but it's not that different an experience as you might think. [TS]

01:44:55   Coming in from the outside it's just that I think I'm more comfortable doing the things you're doing and in Objective C. [TS]

01:45:00   Because it seems like you have a more idea of like the apple is the firmament upon which I build [TS]

01:45:05   and they provide so much stuff already like all those libraries. [TS]

01:45:10   They're not they're part of the first part of the entire framework of everything there is from Apple [TS]

01:45:13   and you can trust it and when they add new stuff you can choose your own [TS]

01:45:16   and then you just add a thin layer of third party stuff on top of that. [TS]

01:45:20   Right because [TS]

01:45:20   and you know that's what I prefer like the strong rich rich framework for built in platform to link to the official [TS]

01:45:28   language like the Microsoft one is very much like this right. [TS]

01:45:31   The dot net framework is very rich and full featured [TS]

01:45:35   and you know if you like how I mean I haven't done Microsoft stuff ever professionally [TS]

01:45:41   and even as a hobby not for about fifteen years. [TS]

01:45:44   But [TS]

01:45:46   but how how much third party code do you end up having to add to a typical dot net project says that this is a very simple [TS]

01:45:55   question. Question with kind of a complex answer but the short version. You don't really have to add anything. [TS]

01:46:04   But there's a project called nougat and U G E T That is approximately the equivalent of an PM [TS]

01:46:15   or cocoa Pods And so because of that it used to be that nobody ever used third party anything because it was impossible [TS]

01:46:21   to add to the project. [TS]

01:46:23   But now with new get it's just like Cocoa Pods is just like M.P.'s where you can just pull in the case of Microsoft [TS]

01:46:30   obviously point and click your way into getting a package and it into your project. [TS]

01:46:35   And because of that what used to be a pain in kind of taboo is now actually fairly popular [TS]

01:46:42   and you'll see a lot you'll see a lot of projects that are that are like underscore in javascript [TS]

01:46:50   or reactive cocoa is probably not the best example of networking is a better example so you'll see a lot of that [TS]

01:46:55   but that's a very that's a very new thing [TS]

01:46:58   and Microsoft actually started bundling New get in with Visual Studio which is a big deal because this is a third party [TS]

01:47:04   thing that they decided to kind of on officially officially bless as being the package manager for for Dot Net [TS]

01:47:12   application so years ago you never saw third party code used or certainly not often today. [TS]

01:47:18   Yeah that happens relatively often. You know that's having a good mannerism like Cocoa Pods or N.P.N. More C. [TS]

01:47:25   Band with Pearl [TS]

01:47:26   and make such a difference in the experience of using a language like I mean it's kind of it's not surprising that [TS]

01:47:32   Apple wasn't all going whole [TS]

01:47:33   but let's give you guys a great way to add you know the community had to come up with its own way to do it [TS]

01:47:38   and it seems like Cocoa Pods is the popular right now. [TS]

01:47:41   And having that really changes the culture in terms of there is not just like a bunch of people sharing their products [TS]

01:47:48   or if you want to have networking go to get paid [TS]

01:47:49   and they can get it like it's so much easier if there's like a command you can type and set up [TS]

01:47:53   and now you've got it now that it's your project and I was doing that without Apple Support is itself risky and weird. [TS]

01:48:00   Never know when Apple does something that makes cocoa Pods stop working or have to update stuff [TS]

01:48:04   and you would hope that Apple would do something about you. [TS]

01:48:07   The of the of Apple had a way to share like basically the equivalent of C. Band in Perl or and V.M. [TS]

01:48:13   Even though it was just a giant directory of third party code in a particular format that you could easily integrate [TS]

01:48:19   with your Xcode products and share between projects and do it like the developers would love that. [TS]

01:48:23   I'm not sure Apple would love it because Apple was saying what do you think of networking for that shows as a whole on [TS]

01:48:27   our A.P.I. We're going to go back to the drawing board and come out with a S.Q.L. Session or what is it called an S. [TS]

01:48:32   It's a and if you're of us in any way [TS]

01:48:35   and like same thing with all the file handle like every time they would come up with an A.P.I. [TS]

01:48:39   That you probably just sit there and get it and look at all the third party cocoa things [TS]

01:48:43   and see what people are rapping I mean I got a grant it has an application yet so sorry Marco [TS]

01:48:47   but you know you see the things that people are wrapping and then come back the next year. [TS]

01:48:52   W You think they stopped doing those wrappers we don't like that we don't like it all around. [TS]

01:48:56   Locations are using this particular wrapper we don't like [TS]

01:48:59   when all our applications are built on Power Point a power plant way back in time [TS]

01:49:04   and talk about a dark time that both of you missed that's a bad situation to be in. [TS]

01:49:07   And now Apple is totally crazed about avoiding that in the future. [TS]

01:49:12   So I don't know if it's a healthy dynamic but I'm glad something like Cocoa Pods exists [TS]

01:49:17   and I wish it was even better than it is. [TS]

01:49:19   Yeah and I think in the end of the day what we're running against in Marco you and I went back [TS]

01:49:23   and forth about this on an episode [TS]

01:49:25   or two ago is that you tend to have this just deep rooted need for control over almost everything [TS]

01:49:34   and so that makes you reticent I think to use some of this third party code. [TS]

01:49:39   It makes you reticent to use Heroku where you would rather just roll your own B.P.'s in so I think this is another [TS]

01:49:48   reflection of that that you want to control everything and I think that is both your greatest strength [TS]

01:49:52   and your biggest weakness all at once. [TS]

01:49:54   Well certainly there's like there are some weaknesses there are some downsides to that no. [TS]

01:50:00   And I do I am overly controlling in some ways however a lot of that comes from having gotten burned in the past. [TS]

01:50:07   Sure [TS]

01:50:07   and that's what people as they get older tend to get more conservative with choices that they make because they are you [TS]

01:50:15   know they're fighting the last battle like they're there. [TS]

01:50:17   They're trying not to repeat bad things have happened in the past even to a fault [TS]

01:50:22   and so I try to avoid third party code he said. [TS]

01:50:26   I've relied on so much bad third party code before that I had to like replace [TS]

01:50:31   or rewrite under pressure because it stopped working or it broke [TS]

01:50:35   or it had some major shortcoming that I didn't hit until a certain point and Oh crap this is a really bad [TS]

01:50:43   and the server's down as a result and stuff like that or the report was going to use anymore [TS]

01:50:48   and stuff like that you know there's little you know just stuff that that you know it has caused small [TS]

01:50:56   and large problems in the past and I also try to get by with as little code as I can [TS]

01:51:00   and you know I try to to not have thousands of thousands of lines of third party includes in my files if I only need [TS]

01:51:09   like one function that's why like I'm trying to remove networking from my project because I'm only using it for that [TS]

01:51:16   one small thing now and as soon as I can you know write my own thing or just even just pull those files out [TS]

01:51:21   and just use those I'll do that if it hasn't been worth the time yet but it's so easy [TS]

01:51:25   and so so common to get burned by this stuff that you know that's why I'm so conservative [TS]

01:51:31   and from a lot of it's also from a laziness angle. [TS]

01:51:34   You know like when it comes to learning a new language or learning a new platform [TS]

01:51:38   or learning a new library I don't want my knowledge to be out of date in six months [TS]

01:51:42   and so that's why I like I look at the at the web language landscape [TS]

01:51:46   and there's there's oh it's so easy now there's so many people who make new frameworks [TS]

01:51:52   and new tools a new compilers a new languages a new library on top of everything else like there's there's going to be [TS]

01:51:57   a new everything every six months and. [TS]

01:52:00   And all the cool kids are going to switch to it and then switch to the next thing right after that [TS]

01:52:04   and so if I take that six months to learn something and to really get involved in it [TS]

01:52:09   and to be to become an expert in it but she is one of those ones usually [TS]

01:52:13   but if I if I invest a whole bunch of my time to become an expert in something that girl [TS]

01:52:17   or fashion soon after I become an expert in it that sucks. [TS]

01:52:20   That's a lot of wasted time and effort [TS]

01:52:22   and I don't want to spend all of my time gaining expertise in constantly new things I want to sell my time applying [TS]

01:52:29   that expertise to build stuff. [TS]

01:52:31   That's where that's where I get more satisfaction [TS]

01:52:33   and a lot of programmers are like that a lot of programmers get more satisfaction out of learning the new stuff [TS]

01:52:39   and that's fine but that's not me. [TS]

01:52:41   And so it's much more important to me to master a small number of things [TS]

01:52:47   and then use that knowledge to produce stuff that that is satisfying to me. [TS]

01:52:52   So you don't want your knowledge to be out of date in six months. There's I would she just said Yeah that's right. [TS]

01:52:58   Well you better get the hell off page because that's all it is now. Thanks a lot. [TS]

01:53:03   Two or three sponsors this week when the dot com P.D.F. Ten scanned plus and back please and we will see you next week. [TS]

01:54:17   We were we went along with that felt good. [TS]

01:54:19   I really didn't want to stop in fact I kind of want to keep going in this conversation to try for the best so we killed [TS]

01:54:23   it. [TS]

01:54:23   Yeah I mean there's just there's so much to say I you know because it's [TS]

01:54:27   and this isn't even the first time we've had this conversation. [TS]

01:54:29   Yeah [TS]

01:54:30   but there's always more to say you know this topic is Markos developer therapy work there is issues as a developer [TS]

01:54:38   and trying to make sure that everything is doing the right thing. [TS]

01:54:41   Yeah you know and the only point I wanted to bring up so now we're starting again. [TS]

01:54:44   It's my fault [TS]

01:54:45   but I wanted to part of the reason you're so against using third party code is because so much of the P.H.P. [TS]

01:54:50   Third party code and I'm sure that's a big part of it. By far the Objective C. [TS]

01:54:56   Code that I've used from third parties has been way better than any third party P.H.P. [TS]

01:55:02   Code I've ever seen from anybody from Zend all the way down it it's it's a P.H.P. [TS]

01:55:08   Code and I've seen third party is awful. Now granted I haven't because of that I haven't looked at their part of P.H.P. [TS]

01:55:14   Code in probably three years [TS]

01:55:17   or so for the most part so I missed the whole composer revolution that's happened since composers like a new package [TS]

01:55:23   manager for P.H.P. [TS]

01:55:24   That that everyone loves and I miss a whole revolution so maybe it's better now [TS]

01:55:29   but it was so terrible for so long I'm not going to try it again and I don't you know my P.H.P. Needs are pretty small. [TS]

01:55:37   I have my own framework that I've written over the last you know eight years whatever. [TS]

01:55:41   It's great it works for me it's fantastic open source eventually if I even bought a DA plumbing domain [TS]

01:55:49   or anything because I figured that you know if it is plumbing so that makes sense [TS]

01:55:54   and there were no other good ones available so you know P.H.P. Works for me the way. [TS]

01:56:00   I'd do it [TS]

01:56:01   but one of the reasons why I have an Open Source of three Merc in the last eight years yet is because I don't think [TS]

01:56:07   anyone cares except me. Everyone has their own way of doing P.H.P. and That's fine. [TS]

01:56:12   There's the whole community of pro P.H.P. [TS]

01:56:14   People that I that I not only are not a part of but never want to be a part of [TS]

01:56:18   and have never wanted to even pay attention to because it's so different in the way I do things at the language. [TS]

01:56:24   Whereas like with just to see I care a lot about the way the community does that like I write my bit of C. [TS]

01:56:29   Code with the goal of it looking like Apple code and with the A.P.I. Is looking like Apple A.P.I. [TS]

01:56:35   Is and [TS]

01:56:36   and to to to the standards of third parties consider best practices you know like I want to be part of the good elite [TS]

01:56:44   Objective C. Community or at least pay very close attention to it if I can't be a part of it whereas P.H.P. [TS]

01:56:50   Had always been so awful I've never even want to be a part of the community. [TS]

01:56:53   It's hard for me to reconcile you kind of slandering is the right word [TS]

01:56:58   but you're being very dismissive of the community yet being and sometimes often even the language [TS]

01:57:05   and yet being such a repeat customer for lack of better way of phrasing it of this language like I I don't love the [TS]

01:57:15   Microsoft community but man do I love language. I really do love C. Sharp and it is really really really good. [TS]

01:57:23   It's got problems but it's a really really good [TS]

01:57:26   and I just it would be it would be really crummy I think for me to be a part for me to use a language that I don't [TS]

01:57:36   respect that much. [TS]

01:57:37   I'm not trying to put words in mouth but in language I don't respect in a community I don't care about [TS]

01:57:42   and make my living off of that and if it works for you which it clearly does there's nothing wrong with that it's just. [TS]

01:57:47   Man that's so different than what I would want. [TS]

01:57:50   Well [TS]

01:57:50   but again it's like I don't care as much about the web side of things I care about the client side of things a lot. [TS]

01:57:55   And so you know if it was flipped if I if I was very unhappy. [TS]

01:58:00   I'm critical of the community and not you know not caring about quality relative to what other people think about it. [TS]

01:58:06   On the client side where I really care that would be discouraging at least. [TS]

01:58:14   But because I just don't care about the website like the reason I use P.H.P. [TS]

01:58:18   Still and I keep using the same framework that I keep modifying over time. It's still basically the same thing. [TS]

01:58:26   The reason I keep doing that is because it allows me to get done with the website quickly in a way that I know will [TS]

01:58:35   work that will scale and that will be cheap to run and easy to run. [TS]

01:58:39   That's why I do it and I do respect the language for a lot of those things [TS]

01:58:44   and there's a reason why I like the biggest reason why I haven't learned a language you know on the web side any time [TS]

01:58:51   recently is because they haven't really been motivating me to like like there is been no language that I've been very [TS]

01:58:56   tempted to learn you know on the web side. [TS]

01:59:00   Like the advantages they offer just don't get me that they don't they don't motivate me to go through the massive cost [TS]

01:59:06   of switching so like I'm like because I have to keep mine like you know with with overcast the last thing I want to be [TS]

01:59:13   doing is if I launch a thing if it gets popular. [TS]

01:59:16   The last thing I want to be doing is having to mess with the server for days [TS]

01:59:20   and weeks on end to just you know get an optimized at the scale I just can't possibly add that would crush my spirit if [TS]

01:59:28   I had to spend a lot of time doing that. [TS]

01:59:31   If I stick with what I know on that side of things I know I have to do very little. Do you want to do titles. [TS]

01:59:39   We probably should do tiles. [TS]

01:59:41   It is self-serving I do think the are Casey's a doorway [TS]

01:59:43   but I think if this language is probably my second favorite although a little on the risqué side I'm I think I'd go [TS]

01:59:50   years Casey Casey is better is a better title if this language. It's also the clear winner by a long shot. [TS]

01:59:57   That's true we haven't had it. Well accepting. [TS]

02:00:00   Some stupid title like a circus a county title which will never you know we haven't had a clear winner in a long time. [TS]

02:00:06   All the more unfortunate that you two both didn't get the reference and made me explain it. [TS]

02:00:10   Someday John someday we will get a reference the sad thing is I saw John [TS]

02:00:14   and I were having a conversation in the google doc and I rode in it on the side and yet it was it was pretty bad. [TS]

02:00:22   Please the speaking of ways different mediums for communication please go to google doc is instant message has he this [TS]

02:00:27   is that as a hybrid of your discussion and I.R.L. [TS]

02:00:29   Thought I know I know but yes so we were kind of fighting back and forth very briefly and I wrote. [TS]

02:00:36   You're killing me Smalls [TS]

02:00:37   and I felt compelled to indicate that I knew that was sandlot by putting Sam on what you were making there aren't you [TS]

02:00:44   know I don't mean the you know your own reference. [TS]

02:00:46   I just I want you to know that it wasn't just something I've heard somewhere that I knew where it was from. [TS]

02:00:52   Have you seen the movie yet I didn't like it and I go I seem to also didn't like it but I gather friends. [TS]