The Accidental Tech Podcast

76: Not Suitable for Any Purpose


00:00:00   Well not the right environment. Other people talking you know what's going on. How's overcast going great. [TS]

00:00:10   I talked for two hours about on debug last night. [TS]

00:00:14   Go there to hear more because I know I want to for our show too much too late so I flooded their show instead. [TS]

00:00:19   And a guy asked me to be on the blog a while ago and I kept delaying [TS]

00:00:23   and I kept saying oh I'll just wait until I reserve a cast that we talk about and I can promote it and whatever [TS]

00:00:29   and I've been putting it off because that was probably back in February that I said that. [TS]

00:00:32   And so putting it off for quite a while. [TS]

00:00:35   So finally I went and and talked about there for a while with some of the more low level tech stuff [TS]

00:00:41   and then kind of app business [TS]

00:00:43   and social stuff like how do you break into the social crowd a break in the business stuff like that. [TS]

00:00:48   I'm pretty happy with how turned out so we'll see I don't know [TS]

00:00:50   when to post it will say I haven't heard all of your overcast Torah so maybe you talked about this already you don't [TS]

00:00:58   want to talk about it [TS]

00:00:58   but I think it's no one has asked What are your conversion numbers like if you want to share that I don't even know off [TS]

00:01:04   top of my head but they're there they're pretty good I would say. [TS]

00:01:10   I don't even know what percentage would be because I just know like dollars and I don't want to share [TS]

00:01:15   but they're going to ask just to be a jerk but anyway you're happy with it it's more or less what you expected. [TS]

00:01:20   Yeah I mean the thing is like it's so early right now that you know because it's all it's only been out now as we [TS]

00:01:26   record this for eight days [TS]

00:01:29   and so it's still on its launch high you know it's still feature in the App Store I think today was the last day so it [TS]

00:01:36   was featured in the App Store until probably midday today it might be featured somewhere else this week [TS]

00:01:42   but I probably not unless they do two weeks in a row for anything [TS]

00:01:46   and it had all that launch press so I really have no clue what what like the resting point will be like what's that [TS]

00:01:54   what's going to be like the common every day income from it you know it into paper. [TS]

00:02:00   That number and you know it wouldn't. [TS]

00:02:01   It wasn't always the same but you know it would be the same for like a month [TS]

00:02:05   and it was it was always in the same ballpark. It would gradually go down over time. [TS]

00:02:11   If I didn't do much you know with with the app. [TS]

00:02:13   But it was it was pretty predictable for the most part and so I don't know what that level will be for overcast yet [TS]

00:02:20   and I won't know until probably like a month or two from now you know what really what that is. [TS]

00:02:27   I can tell you that I've had something like one of the exact time or something like a hundred thousand [TS]

00:02:34   or hundred one hundred sixty thousand downloads [TS]

00:02:38   and of those a little more than half have actually made a user account and that's an interesting ratio. [TS]

00:02:44   The problem is again that will be more interesting later like will be more interesting and in a few weeks [TS]

00:02:50   or months once all the stuff is settled down. [TS]

00:02:54   I wasn't sure it like you know because the whole thing about needing to create an account to use it. [TS]

00:03:00   That was a decision I made for various reasons that I think aren't from somewhere [TS]

00:03:03   but they're they're pretty boring reasons but that was a conscious decision. [TS]

00:03:07   I know I could you know just generate a random idea and use that [TS]

00:03:10   but there were lots of reasons I didn't want to do that. [TS]

00:03:14   Mostly involving sync to new devices and people forgetting that they have this account and create and duplicate N.T. [TS]

00:03:19   Accounts and that is a support issue and I think a lot of the data. It's a bad scene anyway. [TS]

00:03:26   So you know roughly a little more than half right now have actually created a user account. [TS]

00:03:30   I don't know I'm not doing any analytics yet in the afternoon like how many of those people who didn't make the user [TS]

00:03:37   account have even launched the app yet you know like it could just be people download the app that was featured [TS]

00:03:42   and they haven't even launch a still has a blue dot next to it [TS]

00:03:44   and so on springboard you know it could be many of those it could be people launch the app if you the logon screen it's [TS]

00:03:51   out I want to create an account and then they close the app and never watch it again of the delete it. [TS]

00:03:55   I'm sure it's probably a mix of both. I don't know the ratios are. [TS]

00:04:00   So anyway that's probably something I should put in a Linux in the apps or could know of a decision going forward. [TS]

00:04:05   But right now Matthew Palmer asked an interesting question in the chat have you been paying close enough attention to [TS]

00:04:11   like server load to see roughly [TS]

00:04:14   when the peak was the peak of just like server activity in general was a few hours into launch day. [TS]

00:04:22   As far as I can tell the being featured in the App Store does not cause a big spike. [TS]

00:04:28   It causes like a general rise in the whole week because people aren't all checking the App Store at the same time [TS]

00:04:34   and so that like that that I just like lifted the average for the whole week [TS]

00:04:39   and I expect next week's average to be substantially lower. [TS]

00:04:43   But I don't believe I'm not going to really know that again until you know a couple weeks now when I can look back [TS]

00:04:48   and see see the pattern see the data. [TS]

00:04:52   As far as I can tell not going to need all eight of my web server that I created [TS]

00:04:56   but I haven't killed any of them yet because I want to do some experiment stuff doesn't matter. [TS]

00:05:03   Anything else you'd like to share about over test. I don't know I don't think so. [TS]

00:05:07   I mean I don't want to bore people who already heard me talk about it for about six hours now. [TS]

00:05:11   But I guess if you have any specific questions write it and we'll we'll see if we can answer them but I don't. [TS]

00:05:18   John any other questions regarding overcast [TS]

00:05:21   and know nothing except for like Tech Support question a lot of you know Marco on attitude. Fair enough. [TS]

00:05:29   All right so we've heard we've heard something that is possibly follow up possibly not depending on how you classify it [TS]

00:05:34   and it's been in the show notes for weeks now. [TS]

00:05:36   But we had more important things to talk about [TS]

00:05:39   and it's about the e-mails that Ed Catmull from Pixar had written long ago that were recently revealed. [TS]

00:05:46   And John I think you're probably most qualified to talk about this. [TS]

00:05:49   Do you want to give us kind of the World Wide Web and I was trying to remember and get a link for the show. [TS]

00:05:53   It's a passion where we discuss the Apple Google sort of not really. [TS]

00:06:00   Wait fiction but the little agreement they had to not put each others' employees. [TS]

00:06:03   It was more than just them it was it was a lot of big tech companies. [TS]

00:06:06   Yeah Apple and who are they were the headliners because they're you know [TS]

00:06:09   and they had their emails it was part of a court case that's why we got to see emails from Steve Jobs [TS]

00:06:13   and we were I was incredulous about the Google sending me emails talking amongst themselves. [TS]

00:06:19   We want to hire this guy but Steve Jobs might not like it so get his Ok first [TS]

00:06:23   and then Steve Jobs says No I'd actually rather you not hire this guy and they don't hire him. [TS]

00:06:28   We complained about that. [TS]

00:06:31   This story is about a I think the same thing for a courtroom case where that's why we're seeing these internal e-mails [TS]

00:06:38   and that's why this information is public. [TS]

00:06:40   This time involving digital special effects companies or some of them anyway. [TS]

00:06:45   One of the stakes are over the other one it was a Sony was the one who was not playing by the rules it was poaching [TS]

00:06:50   people from Pixar and Pixar was all cranky about that. [TS]

00:06:53   And Catmull is heavily featured both on the witness stand and in these e-mails [TS]

00:06:57   and the last time we talked about a camel was about his book creativity and which I really liked [TS]

00:07:02   and talked about on the incomparable episode we did just on that topic [TS]

00:07:06   and these e-mails show that he was involved in this wage fixing you know what I call we check some of the best way to [TS]

00:07:14   describe this needs fixing. Waitressing is the result. [TS]

00:07:19   It's it wasn't quite the action they took but that was definitely the result of the actions they took. Yeah. [TS]

00:07:25   Anyway I think the same thing that the other tech companies were involved in all these companies like the heads of [TS]

00:07:30   these companies are like it's best for all of us involved if we just promise not to poke each other's employees in a [TS]

00:07:36   cold call our people at their desks if you get their number [TS]

00:07:38   and say hey come work for our company we do a similar thing [TS]

00:07:41   and we'll pay your money just don't do that to each other because it's just a hassle for all of us to have to worry [TS]

00:07:45   about these people leaving and so on and so forth and it's the exact same situation with Apple and Steve Jobs [TS]

00:07:50   and Google and all these other tech companies in that. [TS]

00:07:54   The result is that the marketplace for these people skills is not as competitive as it should be. [TS]

00:08:00   Guys are essentially agreeing not to pay the people what they're worth just to make their lives easier. [TS]

00:08:05   Head to the companies and as much as I admire Ed camel he's doing the exact same thing here [TS]

00:08:10   and seeing this both in the case of Steve Jobs who I also admire and camel [TS]

00:08:14   and takes on his company he just have to think about what is it that makes these people think that this is an [TS]

00:08:19   appropriate thing to do especially a camel makes a point in his book of specifically highlighting instances where he [TS]

00:08:26   did something for the for moral reasons even though you know like not taking advantage of employees not working them to [TS]

00:08:33   death not doing all the strategies that other companies in the tech business do not because it's bad for business not [TS]

00:08:39   because it's immoral because you'd be exploiting your workers exactly is as immoral I don't think like what happens [TS]

00:08:46   what happens to you that you get into a space where you believe you're being you're doing your job well [TS]

00:08:52   and you're also a good person and these are the decisions you make. [TS]

00:08:56   Do you think you came down from jobs that he maybe didn't want to do it. [TS]

00:09:00   But Steve Jobs said you have to this is the way it is things like I mean it's kind of a Masters of the universe thing [TS]

00:09:08   where at a certain point. [TS]

00:09:10   And despite all the things I say in creativity Inc And one of the things that Cavil talks about is it's very difficult [TS]

00:09:15   to know when this is happening to you so the relevant part of creativity is when they're having these meetings [TS]

00:09:20   and they want to have these meetings where everyone could have a voice [TS]

00:09:23   and they didn't want there to be said he sort of class structure and they were invited everybody these meetings [TS]

00:09:28   and you know we're all talking either they were intentionally trying to make it don't feel like you can't speak up [TS]

00:09:33   because you just got hired a week ago and you know I'm the president of the company everyone's input is important [TS]

00:09:37   but I forget the details but it was something like that's all well and good but [TS]

00:09:41   when you came in the room they had like a range seating so the important people got the good seats in a place where [TS]

00:09:46   everybody could hear them and other people had to be like sitting on the radiator in the corner [TS]

00:09:49   and of course they never felt like they could jump in [TS]

00:09:51   and they did this for a long time until the executives realized the reason other people aren't jumping is because we [TS]

00:09:56   you know we are the executives and we get the good seats and it makes you know. [TS]

00:10:00   We're marginalizing them unconsciously and so they abolish the assigned seating let people sit wherever they want. [TS]

00:10:05   Executives are automatically get the good seats or whatever [TS]

00:10:08   and you know again creativity is all about you're not going to see that that's happening you're going to think you're [TS]

00:10:12   doing everything in ACT little man and you're not. [TS]

00:10:14   And this seems like an even worse case where he's on the witness stand. [TS]

00:10:18   He doesn't seem you know like he's apologizing for this. He doesn't even seem regretful or whatever. [TS]

00:10:23   He's just sort of stating the facts the way they are. [TS]

00:10:26   When you're running a company like I'm doing a good job [TS]

00:10:28   and I like this kind of churn of employees going from place to place that's bad for everyone's business like we want to [TS]

00:10:33   just you know I'm going to treat my employees well and do right by them. [TS]

00:10:36   But it's no good if these employees keep going to better offer from one place to the other if you know that's just [TS]

00:10:42   that's just too much churn and maybe it is inhumane for the people who run these companies. [TS]

00:10:47   But that's not if you're the head of the company it's not your job to dictate the lives [TS]

00:10:51   and job prospects of the people under you. Right. It's not indentured servitude it's an employment at will. [TS]

00:10:57   You can fire them never you want they should be able to leave whenever they want [TS]

00:10:59   and you buy illegally colluding with other people in the same industry. [TS]

00:11:03   To say don't give that guy a better opportunity a place else. [TS]

00:11:06   If you read about I'll agree that fewer people would risk people are people we don't have to pay them what they would [TS]

00:11:10   get paid otherwise. [TS]

00:11:12   How do you square that circle like [TS]

00:11:13   and I think it's more like you just you just feel like you're doing what's best for the company you're doing your job [TS]

00:11:20   well and you're trying to make your people happy like OK. No one is hurt there and you don't see that. [TS]

00:11:24   You're essentially deciding you're controlling people's lives in improper way [TS]

00:11:29   and I think as you as you move up in the executive ranks [TS]

00:11:32   and I've seen this in many places to varying degrees you lose touch with the rest of the world. [TS]

00:11:36   You start to think you are different people even in the sort of egalitarian company where they don't like having a [TS]

00:11:41   science eating in meetings but most companies are not like that. Most come in like I am big people your little people. [TS]

00:11:46   I make a salary that has more digits than your salary. I drive a nicer car. [TS]

00:11:50   I have a personal assistant I have a secretary. I don't get my own schedule. I get to come and go as I please. [TS]

00:11:56   You know like all these things just build up this sort of image of yourself. [TS]

00:12:00   That you are different than the other people and even if you're magnanimous [TS]

00:12:02   and you know you know you like I'm the benevolent dictator you're still the king. [TS]

00:12:06   But I love my study said treat them well but you know [TS]

00:12:09   and it's really difficult to fight against that even apparently even if you read Catmull No no analytical engineering [TS]

00:12:15   style brain is apparently enough to completely reverse that although I'm sure there are exceptions I can think probably [TS]

00:12:20   John that would never happen to John Carmack because he has too much energy in this [TS]

00:12:24   and not enough of those things to ever get him into space [TS]

00:12:26   and I also mentioned to me a story about John Karr Mike doing something similar and I'll trust him [TS]

00:12:30   but I'm sad to hear about you know my personal hero is making a mistake [TS]

00:12:35   and I'm sadder to see that as far as I can tell from you know [TS]

00:12:37   when to stand us the money which may not be representative of his lawyer probably advised him just to just stick to the [TS]

00:12:42   facts that you know your heroes our flaws too and they make mistakes and this is a bad move and it makes me sad. [TS]

00:12:52   You know it reminds me of the episode of Top Gear where James and Mary drives you knew I had to go there [TS]

00:13:00   and wear jeans major I can tie everything we want to do you've ever so true it's kind of sad but anyway. [TS]

00:13:07   James drives a coon tosh which is his favorite car when he was you know growing up or whatever [TS]

00:13:13   and he realized that this is fantasy car was not a piece of crap because you can't get into it can't get out of it [TS]

00:13:19   can't see out the back. [TS]

00:13:20   It's impossible to drive impossible to park and it's awful [TS]

00:13:23   and he said you know we kind of wished he had never driven it in the first place because it ruined it for him [TS]

00:13:29   and I'm not saying that this is a perfect analogy but it reminds me of it nevertheless how I felt [TS]

00:13:35   when I finally played a say to Saturn you know the king of terrible analogies kings [TS]

00:13:40   and terrible announcers I mean like none of that I thought anymore as part of like Steve Jobs is the perfect example [TS]

00:13:45   anyone who knows anything about Steve Jobs you can marm all you want [TS]

00:13:47   but there are so many terrible stories about him that no one is ever thinking you see jobs as perfect [TS]

00:13:51   and then how is the strange part [TS]

00:13:53   and parcel of the reputation whereas Catmull reputation is just so much like everything that's bad about other high [TS]

00:13:59   powered executives. [TS]

00:14:00   Not bad about this guy because he's you know he's the you know the nerds in there [TS]

00:14:04   and he's the engineer he's able to not fall victim to all of the things he's not a jerk in the way those guys a joke [TS]

00:14:09   he's soft spoken in a thoughtful and he look at his great book he wrote and look at all these talks he gives [TS]

00:14:13   and although this doesn't take away from all that all that is good just as much as this thing is also bad. [TS]

00:14:18   Right and so and you know it just it just goes to show that everyone makes mistakes [TS]

00:14:23   and like the worst thing about it like this. [TS]

00:14:25   Does he think it's a mistake [TS]

00:14:26   or does he think like well if if we didn't do this it would have been you know years about the rest later that we [TS]

00:14:31   didn't do this it would have been worse for our employees because of reasons X. Y. and Z. [TS]

00:14:34   but and You say well the laws against collusion I don't agree with them I think those laws shouldn't be there [TS]

00:14:39   and therefore I'm breaking unjust laws it's not a big deal [TS]

00:14:42   but I would hope that in any sort of extended conversation a topic you brought around to the notion that is so clear to [TS]

00:14:48   all those of us who are the piano workers that this is a terrible thing to do to anybody to collude with other [TS]

00:14:54   companies to limit the employment opportunities like that's not how you keep your employees by just making sure that [TS]

00:14:59   they don't have other job prospects even if you treat them super well which by all accounts they do [TS]

00:15:03   or at least tried to. [TS]

00:15:05   Doesn't matter you don't get to do that you don't get to say because I'm so important not only will I be here not spent [TS]

00:15:11   treating well [TS]

00:15:12   but we're sort of making sure that you don't have any better prospects elsewhere despite the fact that if we didn't [TS]

00:15:16   have this deal you know like Sony who wasn't on Israel's like we'll offer you more money will put you in charge of an [TS]

00:15:21   entire movie called our company and you know employees would leave in it like oh we don't want that. [TS]

00:15:26   Well if you don't want that pay those people more make them happier that's called a competitive marketplace. [TS]

00:15:31   It's it's disappointing it's sad it makes me angry that this happens to people because you know not that I'm in the [TS]

00:15:37   digital animation field but if if the similar thing was going on you know and I was looking for a job [TS]

00:15:44   or you know not just looking for drugs. [TS]

00:15:46   If I had a job and I knew that some other company wanted me to work for them [TS]

00:15:49   but they had an agreement with my company that they wouldn't vote for me now because I would be too. [TS]

00:15:54   And marketers know what that's like. So tell me about something that's awesome. This week we were sponsored by a. [TS]

00:16:00   Friends once again. Hover hover is in my words to make sure that is actually good. [TS]

00:16:07   There are many do a mega stars that are not good in fact I would say pretty much every other one I've tried [TS]

00:16:13   and I last time I was very certain demands looking to leave the what say the elephant in the room. [TS]

00:16:22   I got suggestions from all sorts of people about whatever you know whatever a show they use basically is where people [TS]

00:16:28   ignore him and like when you ask people for recommendations on anything but they just tell you what they use [TS]

00:16:33   and I tried a lot of them actually and I really didn't like any of them very much and hover was definitely my favorite. [TS]

00:16:42   It was the one that it was not only the only one I really liked but clearly the best in the bunch [TS]

00:16:49   and I don't even use most their features honestly because they have all sorts of cool stuff like the basics hover of [TS]

00:16:55   course lets you register to me names you guys know what that is I'm not going to not going to explain it. [TS]

00:17:01   You can raise it remains you can you know get a host I think I don't know if they offer full on web hosting [TS]

00:17:06   but they do offer email hosting [TS]

00:17:08   and you know all the domain stuff you need D.N.A.'s all the stuff that you think should come with it does come with [TS]

00:17:14   that you have privacy. Who is privacy built in for free for any field that supports it. [TS]

00:17:20   Some of them have wi restrictions don't allow anyone to do that [TS]

00:17:22   but most of them support it covered no charge they have amazing support [TS]

00:17:28   and they have a beautiful interface you know managing the stuff is all they decide whether a face of amazing support [TS]

00:17:33   where not only can you go online of course they have those options but you can even call them on the phone [TS]

00:17:38   and a human being picks up the phone they have a no hold no wait no transfer phone policy so you call this number [TS]

00:17:44   during business hours and you talk to a human immediately who can actually help you. It's really quite amazing. [TS]

00:17:50   They're running a sale right now so we have all these new domain extensions things like you know dot plumbing [TS]

00:17:57   and all this all these all these crazy to me extensions. Now they're running it until until September first. [TS]

00:18:04   These are half off. And over time I don't know what sail it but they're on sale. [TS]

00:18:10   I believe there are I believe they're pretty deeply discounted so all these new domain extensions of come out over the [TS]

00:18:17   last few months that are mostly useless because a couple of good ones. [TS]

00:18:20   All of those are on sale now at However through September first [TS]

00:18:25   or until September first I believe this is a doctor greater than or less than operator and swift for this range here. [TS]

00:18:32   So until September first these are on sale. C.M. Learned Swift I told you I would learn it or something. [TS]

00:18:38   It's a new and learning language guys give me some credit. [TS]

00:18:42   I even pay attention when they change the syntax like oh you see I read I read the Internet. [TS]

00:18:48   So going to head over to hover dot com see the full list of all these Krishna domains [TS]

00:18:52   or you can buy any old ones they're fantastic. [TS]

00:18:54   They have also this great value transfer service one of our friend of the show Joel Housman was telling me that he had [TS]

00:19:00   a transfer and I don't know I don't think about to go into all the details [TS]

00:19:03   but he he had to do a pretty large transfer of many domains into hover and he used a valid transfer service for it [TS]

00:19:12   and it's a number that I you know I would I would assume that if hover had some asterisk somewhere saying we won't do [TS]

00:19:18   this for more than X. [TS]

00:19:19   Domains I would've assumed this number was above that but they did it and it worked great [TS]

00:19:26   and they did this whole transfer of many domain names from the old record. [TS]

00:19:31   If you choose to you can you basically just give them the log in to your old registrar [TS]

00:19:35   and they will move it all over for you if you don't have to of course you can move it yourself [TS]

00:19:39   but moving them a name such as you got to make sure you got the D.N.A.'s settings correct [TS]

00:19:43   and you know don't drop anything on the floor otherwise than your server goes down for eight hours. [TS]

00:19:46   New things propagate anyway go to hover dot com It's just a regular That's good basically [TS]

00:19:52   and that's that's quite a feat in this industry. I use it lots of people use it. Check it out. [TS]

00:19:57   Go to use our promo code. New this week promo code. I hate you so much. [TS]

00:20:06   Maybe one of the one of the host of the show might say that frequently. I think ever could that be something like that. [TS]

00:20:12   So go to hover dot com and use promo code. [TS]

00:20:15   I hate you so much and that will get you ten percent off your first purchase [TS]

00:20:19   and tell them that you came from us which we can to sponsor our show make us keep making shows. So everyone's happy. [TS]

00:20:25   Thank you very much to hover for sponsoring our show once again. Excellent all right. [TS]

00:20:30   So today the day that we're recording this which is probably roughly a week before we release it is the first day of [TS]

00:20:38   the public beta for Yosemite. And I haven't even registered for it. [TS]

00:20:44   You should it's cat is kept to a million people here [TS]

00:20:47   but a hurry so I guess I would assume they were all just taken at as soon as they started. [TS]

00:20:51   But I don't know it's been outstanding thing about it was [TS]

00:20:56   when I heard there was kept in a million like to a million people really want to run a beta beta app maybe even a beta [TS]

00:21:04   O.-S. [TS]

00:21:04   Like I thought you know you got to do the whole installation procedure and it's all different and weird [TS]

00:21:08   and I don't think a million people are probably equipped well. [TS]

00:21:13   Man I guess maybe they're equipped in terms of having Do you think a million mac users have good enough backups that if [TS]

00:21:19   they install the assembly bed and immediately race their entire discreate would be fine. [TS]

00:21:23   No definitely not but they will make it. [TS]

00:21:25   How many I mean what is the base of mac users I don't know I would guess in the maybe around one hundred million range [TS]

00:21:32   like that I don't know. [TS]

00:21:33   So like one percent of you think about one percent of people I think one percent of mac users might have good backups. [TS]

00:21:39   But with time machine everything eighty millions as a chat room style base of mac users I don't. [TS]

00:21:45   Anyway it seems I mean we know that most of the people who stole this bit are not going to have good backups [TS]

00:21:49   and chances are they'll be fine but like you know people are people their own worst enemies [TS]

00:21:53   and people just like to be daring [TS]

00:21:55   and as with magic kids like I mean I know if I was like yep uninstallers on the family computer right now. [TS]

00:22:00   No question I mean like I did with Windows two thousand when that when I came out here [TS]

00:22:05   when I tweeted about this I was like look I don't generally talk about on the show I don't generally recommend people [TS]

00:22:10   install data as a beta means it's not finished means there's going to be bugs have backups blah blah blah the whole [TS]

00:22:16   nine yards. [TS]

00:22:17   It's best if you could do it on a spare machine if not that on a spare hard drive all like all the stuff went of like [TS]

00:22:22   oh you're being too conservative or whatever I'm like you know I mean like I said [TS]

00:22:26   when I was a kid I would just what I'd done. [TS]

00:22:27   But like that's why I kept screwing up our computers [TS]

00:22:30   when I was a kid as part of the learning process I don't tell people they can't do it but if someone installs this [TS]

00:22:35   and you know this is going to happen no matter how many disclaimers you give [TS]

00:22:38   and there's some bug that causes data loss they're going to be super pissed like how dare the apple like you know like [TS]

00:22:44   you did it to yourself. [TS]

00:22:46   You know even the version like is always going to be bugs like every piece of software comes with that big giant all [TS]

00:22:52   caps thing that says the software is not useful for any purpose like whatever the hell that text is the you have that [TS]

00:22:57   there weren't a disk. [TS]

00:22:58   It's like a warrant ability something with disclosure of disclaimer are going to build these with [TS]

00:23:02   and not suitable for any purpose. [TS]

00:23:04   Yeah no matter what you think the software is good [TS]

00:23:06   but we're saying nope we do not save the software is good for anything even if even if it directly contradicts what was [TS]

00:23:11   on the box. Right like you know if we put on the box the software can add numbers here. [TS]

00:23:16   Nope we're not promising anything. [TS]

00:23:18   If my just erase your disconnect it anyway so you know people just have to use their own conscience and like kids [TS]

00:23:26   and adults will make mistakes people will lose data that's life. [TS]

00:23:31   But just because Apple releases something publicly doesn't mean it is of the same stability [TS]

00:23:35   but it actually does have a meaning and it means not done yet. [TS]

00:23:39   So you know go for it use your conscience as your guide so that I mean that's why I thought million is maybe not so [TS]

00:23:46   there are a bunch of like as a million people may want to do this. [TS]

00:23:49   There's probably a million kids who and saw it on a parent's computers [TS]

00:23:53   and have an Apple ID so that there's your million right there. Yeah I mean. [TS]

00:24:00   The real question is not so much who's going to start and how are they going to go I was going to go for them [TS]

00:24:04   but why is that we're doing this. Yeah now that's a very good question. [TS]

00:24:09   I would you know I wonder if it has to do with the I.B.M. [TS]

00:24:12   Thing I wonder if this is about enterprise stuff you know how so like giving like giving enterprises being able to go [TS]

00:24:19   to enterprise customers [TS]

00:24:20   and say look we're becoming more open we're now doing public betas to make our stuff a little more palatable purity [TS]

00:24:25   departments [TS]

00:24:26   and I don't think of him that I think of arms if he if you remember they did public betas for a ten nine three in ten [TS]

00:24:32   nine four and you remember that probably not because most people know. [TS]

00:24:35   But they actually did do probably it is August and the ten one three releasement [TS]

00:24:39   and Ivan who cares to have a public bit of a point release because like there's nothing you know it doesn't look any [TS]

00:24:44   different really they probably pick some driver issues of lever. [TS]

00:24:46   I don't even install the point releases you know I even though I'm on an active program to get all the emails about it [TS]

00:24:51   but this is a public beta of ten one hundred ten and four [TS]

00:24:53   and I was sort of the warm up around for you know the public beta of these things [TS]

00:24:58   and I think Apple got good results from the ten wondering to inform is again the debate is like why why bother going to [TS]

00:25:05   the public especially with tend not to be really careful like regular non developers download ten one three is like [TS]

00:25:11   getting you any information that you're not already getting from developers [TS]

00:25:15   and the answer is yes the answer is that different a different class of person use downloads this type of thing [TS]

00:25:22   and they use it in a different way than developers use it develop really probably using it to test their apps [TS]

00:25:27   or to test whether their pet bug is fixed but regular people don't have apps [TS]

00:25:31   and they don't have maybe they have pet U.I. Bugs but they don't have like penne A.P.I. Bugs. [TS]

00:25:35   Right so they're going to they're going to start and use it like a regular computer [TS]

00:25:39   and find things that developers wouldn't find and that's I think why Apple is going with the larger beta [TS]

00:25:46   and people in chat room. [TS]

00:25:47   Yes of course there was there were there were ten public beta as in before ten point zero if anyone remembers way back [TS]

00:25:52   when that you had to pay for the privilege of installing is like thirty bucks [TS]

00:25:57   or something I think I saw the box sitting off to my right here somewhere. [TS]

00:26:01   And that was a similar type of thing in that they had had a Developer Preview releases a voice ten [TS]

00:26:07   but it was probably some schedule pressure to say is this a real things people can buy [TS]

00:26:10   and be having a wider test group is is a good thing so it's good to buy something then it was good about thirty bucks [TS]

00:26:16   and the knowledge of that it exists and now it's created by this million people [TS]

00:26:21   or whatever the public beta has a public feedback application that it's right in the docket isn't solved all the beta [TS]

00:26:28   read for the show it's a little purple icon right in the dock with a nice looking little app where you can send your [TS]

00:26:33   feedback [TS]

00:26:33   and I guarantee you they're going to get very very different feedback from people type in little application [TS]

00:26:39   and they would get from developers [TS]

00:26:41   and they've made it as easy as possible soon as you launch a public beta throws the feedback in your face explains what [TS]

00:26:45   it is it stays in your doc says quick big giant button click here [TS]

00:26:49   and start typing stuff if you think you've got a suggestion or a problem or whatever. [TS]

00:26:53   So I don't think there's any particular downsides to this except for the poor suckers are going down the road [TS]

00:26:59   and then encounter some bug and be sad. But for Apple it seems like all upside. [TS]

00:27:04   I don't think that any reputation that they get from people who download a beta find a bug get said about it is going [TS]

00:27:10   to really hurt them especially since they're capping it and especially since those people will probably get over it. [TS]

00:27:16   I wonder if one of the big driving factors for this might have been the ten nine O G email issues because that was that [TS]

00:27:24   was like this massive issue where you know we were mavericks Dato had and even I think that one [TS]

00:27:29   and two that the first few average releases had many issues using G. [TS]

00:27:34   Mail and Mail that [TS]

00:27:35   and that's the kind of bug that you don't tend to find in large numbers among developers because they're usually not [TS]

00:27:42   making it their primary machine like moving into it and bring their e-mail over and everything. [TS]

00:27:47   Developers who were testing you know just testing out their apps are probably you do a clean install on some external [TS]

00:27:52   drive or some or some different partition and testing their app and that's it. And so and that was a pretty severe and. [TS]

00:28:00   Bug for Apple to fight a lot of people and a lot of you know everyday users [TS]

00:28:04   and it definitely should have gotten caught in the betas but I think that's a weird one because I did put my real G. [TS]

00:28:11   Mail account into Apple Mail and that thing as I do with all those ten things [TS]

00:28:16   and the reason I didn't notice this thing is because G. [TS]

00:28:18   Mail never has worked for me you know like every time I do it I go to like first latest Triton the default config like [TS]

00:28:27   you said steam Apple now you just do the right thing and it doesn't you know doesn't work right. [TS]

00:28:31   I move things they go back to where they were [TS]

00:28:32   and things appear in one place not in the other it's not in sync with the Web you while such things then I go to [TS]

00:28:37   Google's Web site [TS]

00:28:37   and say Google do you have any updated advice on how I'm supposed to configure Apple Mail the work thing another [TS]

00:28:42   release different under fault I configured bagels and it still works in crazy ways. [TS]

00:28:46   I think that's not a tenable configuration. I'd never would recommend anybody if you have a G. [TS]

00:28:52   Mail account do not use Apple Mail that the only thing that works if you have a G. [TS]

00:28:55   Mail can you money that mail it to pop which G. Mail still supports pop your mail that way which is terrible. [TS]

00:29:02   Who wants to use pop right [TS]

00:29:03   but at least that works in a understandable consistent fashion so I you know I feel better for the people who have this [TS]

00:29:10   problem but I feel worse for these people have been you seem hell [TS]

00:29:13   and Apple Mail for years like maybe they sort of got to a steady state where they understood the foibles like you know [TS]

00:29:19   you know the civil or just don't you know hide all mail from the label for my mouth [TS]

00:29:23   and do all the things you're supposed to like. [TS]

00:29:24   Whatever recommended guy that they read this year last year the year before because there have been many many guides of [TS]

00:29:30   how to get Apple Mail to work with G M L First of all those guys are different. [TS]

00:29:33   I go back through the years and find a different guides all the guys are different they can't all be right. [TS]

00:29:37   Apple Mail may have changed behavior that may be updated. [TS]

00:29:39   Eyes but anyway they get something that they sort of understand that works the way I think it does [TS]

00:29:43   and then the behavior changes. [TS]

00:29:44   And yet there were legitimate bugs in here that apparently were worse than they were before [TS]

00:29:48   but there still have to be crazy idiosyncratic behaviors that I mean there was when I was testing it. [TS]

00:29:53   If you can't use it is now quiet. [TS]

00:29:54   I can't trust that it's going to do what I want and the web interface to G.-Mail when I move something Mark. [TS]

00:30:00   As Read archive something label it [TS]

00:30:01   or wherever it works it always does what it was supposed to do it never undoes itself there's never any mysteries [TS]

00:30:06   or anything like that. An Apple Mail I never know if it is completely up to date. [TS]

00:30:11   If my actions are going to take place [TS]

00:30:13   when I think rise of the web you will I know the stuff so I think that is kind of a lost cause [TS]

00:30:19   but you're right that if there are complaints about this. [TS]

00:30:23   Like if suddenly people's existing Gmail Apple Mail set up that they were used to like the set of bugs they're used to [TS]

00:30:28   shift to a different set of bugs or add the worst bug people will tell them about it [TS]

00:30:32   and they won't miss it so I think that you know if they had done this for mavericks they would have caught that bug as [TS]

00:30:38   well I'm just saying it in the specific case of this bug. [TS]

00:30:40   I don't recommend anybody use Apple Mail with you though not in this release not in any future release until like I [TS]

00:30:47   think I think pretty sickly ever because as much as email want to support I'm out I'm out has a different model than [TS]

00:30:53   the G. Mail model and I don't feel you can ever bridge those worlds without some compromises. [TS]

00:30:57   Well [TS]

00:30:57   and also from what I understand you know I'm after is a pretty complicated standard And also Apple Mail apparently is [TS]

00:31:04   not the best. [TS]

00:31:05   I'm app client like it takes some liberties like I was playing with a problem earlier [TS]

00:31:09   and some guys on Twitter told me that he wrote on app server once and dealing with Apple Mail was hard [TS]

00:31:15   and I have heard that I've heard that before throughout history from a lot of people I suspect that the Google attitude [TS]

00:31:22   like if some kind of behavior in mail that is not quite doing what kind of spec says is correct [TS]

00:31:27   or ideal if something like that is causing issues with G. [TS]

00:31:31   Mail Google is exactly the kind of company to say well we're not going to fix up Apple's problem. [TS]

00:31:36   Well a global does seem like it wants to work with Apple Mail because they do publish the detailed guide to the [TS]

00:31:42   screenshots of how to configure Apple Mail to work at G M L Like I think there is an effort there on Google's part to [TS]

00:31:49   make their web service work with Apple's not quite mostly because I think a lot of people who use Macs [TS]

00:31:53   and like to use Apple Mail. You think they use Apple Mail in corporate and Google Yeah there's Macs. [TS]

00:32:00   All over go and I can imagine every single person in the web U.I. [TS]

00:32:03   There and you're not like there's a lot of people who just don't like to use whether you are from L. [TS]

00:32:06   I would love to hear from somebody who works google to confirm or deny this. [TS]

00:32:10   Well you the way I think that Apple is actually more apt to be like where screw those Google guys G.-Mail doesn't [TS]

00:32:16   really try to map the way it should which is up for debate [TS]

00:32:19   but you know they do that label thing they do all this weirdness into lead is actually archiving screw those Google [TS]

00:32:26   guys we're going to do it our way which is the way the spec says we should maybe and it's actually Google's problem. [TS]

00:32:32   I think that's much more likely than Google being bitter about Apple not handling things right. [TS]

00:32:38   I also imagine that Google does not care that much about getting all the details of my map exactly right you know. [TS]

00:32:45   Yes You know if this is their problem like I mean I said on Twitter a while ago that I suspect a Google map is is not [TS]

00:32:52   long for this world. [TS]

00:32:54   I really don't think Google gives a crap about I am that [TS]

00:32:57   and that shows throughout history with how bad it's been hasn't just been like client side bugs actually been like [TS]

00:33:04   server failures frequently and stuff like that like Google I map you know and that has always sucked [TS]

00:33:10   and so I have to imagine it's just not a big priority for them because it doesn't serve any of their any of their [TS]

00:33:15   interests [TS]

00:33:16   and they probably just look down on it like some kind of crappy compatibility layer they have to have for certain [TS]

00:33:21   stubborn people who won't use the web at. That's the that's the attitude that I get from them. [TS]

00:33:25   They still support pop though in the same way you know like they support pop in the way I support I.E. [TS]

00:33:30   Six but they support pop correctly like a pop is not a complicated protocol. [TS]

00:33:34   They support it why would they still have pop around who in the world who are using POP for their G.-Mail than me by [TS]

00:33:40   the way the reason I use I use pop for G. [TS]

00:33:42   Mail and outlook and the reason I do that is that is my backup of all my e-mail you know I pop everything from G. [TS]

00:33:47   Mail down and you know just get siphoning to a big bin doesn't you know get filtered after that you know what I mean [TS]

00:33:53   but that is one hundred percent reliable and there's no way I'm ever going to launch my app [TS]

00:33:57   and it's going to synchronize with G.-Mail unduely all and they always are. [TS]

00:34:00   I'm app [TS]

00:34:00   and they get confused about the world because of things the prefix is different it's going to be like oh I don't think [TS]

00:34:06   you have an email [TS]

00:34:06   but I've always local files let me just delete them all for years never going to do that with Pop Pop is like it comes [TS]

00:34:11   then he goes I don't [TS]

00:34:12   and after you get it I don't care what the hell you do with it I'm never going to touch it again unless you delete it [TS]

00:34:17   locally I'm not going to you know so it's just so much simple so much simpler so I hope they never do get rid of [TS]

00:34:22   popular centrally how I have my real time backup of my G. [TS]

00:34:26   Mail [TS]

00:34:26   but yeah I don't know who you are I'm not I don't even know if I'm out as one of those standards where there's like eight [TS]

00:34:31   hundred different nuances [TS]

00:34:32   and there's no like official one so you can argue about why I'm complying with the standard is an arse is there an [TS]

00:34:37   R.F.C. [TS]

00:34:37   and I'm up [TS]

00:34:38   or is it just a million different weird implementations caused the Web used to be in the battle days I don't know for [TS]

00:34:43   sure I do know it is a very large complicated protocol that can do a lot of things like I no can do calendar sending [TS]

00:34:50   note saying all this crazy stuff that almost no clients actually set out how to use it for notes. [TS]

00:34:55   Right exactly [TS]

00:34:56   and so I would imagine the kind of thing where like every client supports a different eighty percent of spec. [TS]

00:35:01   It's probably that situation. [TS]

00:35:03   Yeah and then Apple Mail does those weird stuff about like where do you want to put the deleted messages [TS]

00:35:08   and then I'm happy I like is that am I putting that in a place that also exists in the world [TS]

00:35:13   or opening in the local one it's like I'm always fighting with Apple Mail to get each account to keep track of its own [TS]

00:35:19   where to put my drafts folder of my deleted messages wherever my sent mail in a sane way because it's just so so [TS]

00:35:25   confusing which is why I recommend everybody uses e-mail who is not technically inclined should just use the G. [TS]

00:35:33   Mail web interface [TS]

00:35:33   and funnel all their email there because the Juno web interface will never be out of sync you can send to [TS]

00:35:39   and from any kind of account from there and is like the Rosetta Stone of the mail [TS]

00:35:43   and I get your punishment is that there was some of the exactly wrong analogy don't send me email. [TS]

00:35:49   But if you're going to Sherman is that you have to use a web U.I. [TS]

00:35:53   but It will always be in sync [TS]

00:35:54   and I came to get my own parents to do that so I am unsuccessful in this campaign to try to get my ma. [TS]

00:36:00   Other insists on using Apple Mail and she insists on having multiple e-mail accounts one is for spam she says. [TS]

00:36:08   Anyway it becomes more complicated much simpler if you don't put the R.V. [TS]

00:36:13   In a chat room for I'm out they say it's R A C thirty five o one so maybe there is a spec [TS]

00:36:19   but yeah like like Marco said there was a long history of all this on maps are very good [TS]

00:36:24   and the service doesn't end like in G. Mail you're totally right there is no I have a server it is G. [TS]

00:36:28   Mail and someone put some sort of I'm out like adapter on front of it [TS]

00:36:31   and had to decide OK well what is the closest analogy in the way the GMO works to this operation [TS]

00:36:37   and I'm out I may just have to make choices and it's weird. [TS]

00:36:41   So as riveting as all this email conversation is can we go back to the assembly beta because I have a couple questions. [TS]

00:36:47   We are sponsored this week once again by Lynda dot com at L Y N D A dot com Go there slash A.T.P. [TS]

00:36:55   Lynda dot com has amazing video tutorials to help you learn new skills whether it's programming languages applications [TS]

00:37:03   like Pro Apps Office apps created creativity apps whatever you need. [TS]

00:37:07   When the dot com has amazing professionally produced video tutorials [TS]

00:37:11   and you get all of that they have let me see they have over twenty four hundred courses they say they add more every [TS]

00:37:17   week. [TS]

00:37:18   They work directly with software companies to get new new new versions and new betas In fact I guarantee you [TS]

00:37:23   when the dot com is definitely working on a new seventy video right now because now that there's a beta [TS]

00:37:27   and then as soon as it is released they'll have videos to support it. [TS]

00:37:33   Lynda dot com They have people at the top of their field professionals who work in these fields making these videos [TS]

00:37:39   and they put in like animations [TS]

00:37:40   and diagrams everything is very high production value video it's not just like some crap thing you find in You Tube [TS]

00:37:45   or you know some guy yelling in front of a computer. It is way better than that. [TS]

00:37:50   I view Lynda dot com videos myself to do things like learn how to better edit pod cast using logic. [TS]

00:37:56   Some things with Garage Band you know like I can't play. [TS]

00:38:00   He does have to go try it out [TS]

00:38:01   and the good thing is you can go try to because you can get a special free trial from Lynda dot com for seven days girl [TS]

00:38:08   in the dot com site A.T.P. To start your seven day free trial. [TS]

00:38:11   If you decide to sign up all the all the videos it's a flat rate you don't have to pay per video. [TS]

00:38:16   You get access to everything unlimited for twenty five dollars a month flat fee and matter how much you watch. [TS]

00:38:23   Twenty five bucks a month that's all it is so I mean really. [TS]

00:38:27   Hey I say Sanford seventy trial and see how much you can fit in a week. [TS]

00:38:31   and help you out with that they even have a new app for i O. S. [TS]

00:38:35   They also support a very I think [TS]

00:38:36   but I I start paying attention to that part so they have a new app at least for i OS [TS]

00:38:40   and that's a fourth cellular playback wife I play back [TS]

00:38:43   and you can even damage videos to save offline to watch you know on the subway or whatever on planes. [TS]

00:38:49   It's really an amazing service these videos and they set are very very good. They're highly produced. [TS]

00:38:56   I was blown away by how good they are you. [TS]

00:38:58   There's a transcript on the side you can follow on the transcript you can click to a different part of the transcript. [TS]

00:39:02   Ill see to that part of the video. It's really incredible. Go to Lynda dot com L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

00:39:10   You can learn P.H.P. [TS]

00:39:11   or You can learn a real language you can learn applications like logic you can learn Photoshop Illustrator all these [TS]

00:39:16   terrible apps that are really hard to use because they're all made for professionals. [TS]

00:39:20   You can be one of the professionals and learn how to use these terrible apps in good ways. [TS]

00:39:24   Anyway thanks a lot to Lynda dot com on the dot com slash A.T.P. Thank you very much. [TS]

00:39:30   Right so I have a couple questions about this year some of the data. [TS]

00:39:33   If Apple really wanted to appeal to the enterprise I don't recall which one of the two of you said that wouldn't do you [TS]

00:39:40   think there are better levers to pull than just issuing a public beta for example was a new John that it that it [TS]

00:39:46   complained and moaned and justifiably about the Cisco V.P.N. Client or whatever V.P.N. [TS]

00:39:51   Client was that didn't work with Mavericks for forever or am I making that up. Still doesn't because I didn't try to. [TS]

00:39:58   You're somebody I have no idea. [TS]

00:40:00   Yet they built in Apple built in a bunch of you know capability to work with a lot of common VBN clients using like [TS]

00:40:08   whatever the open protocols are for secure IP and so on and so forth. And for a little while my company used to be P.N. [TS]

00:40:15   They conform to these standards [TS]

00:40:16   but it's basically the fault of the company saying well we can't have that we can't have just built in our support for [TS]

00:40:24   V.P.N. [TS]

00:40:24   We need to innovate and so we need to make a new protocol of this so it doesn't support [TS]

00:40:28   and then make every install the world's worst software which is like you know V.P.N. [TS]

00:40:32   Software from random and vendors who don't really know [TS]

00:40:37   or care anything about the mac it's gotten better over the I still feel a little be using it to give an example of the [TS]

00:40:44   type of thing that really makes no difference but just makes me feel bad about V.P.N. Software when I launch my V.P.N. [TS]

00:40:51   Software it has a little dialog box to the connect button on it that little window that the first window that appears [TS]

00:40:58   appears in just some location like the top of it is jammed up against the menu bar by the right side is like an inch [TS]

00:41:04   away like it's an arbitrary position I don't understand how to position a spect. [TS]

00:41:07   If I move that window doesn't matter next time a launch apps can be right back to the spot I don't know where it stores [TS]

00:41:12   that window location every time it launches I feel like I have to move it. It's taunting me anyway. [TS]

00:41:19   Yeah it's not going to appeal to the enterprises [TS]

00:41:21   and I don't think this move has to do is a way to do it because it is so clearly focused on the public as in people who [TS]

00:41:28   might like that. [TS]

00:41:29   If you've heard both of you to go through the process like sign up [TS]

00:41:32   and go through the process it is so consumer like aimed at a consumer super friendly big giant tech screen shots. [TS]

00:41:39   When you try to sign up for it's like here's what you can do back up your computer you can do it this way you can do [TS]

00:41:44   the other bit like it's a step by step and then [TS]

00:41:46   when you download it it makes you go through another big long list it doesn't even show you the download link so you [TS]

00:41:50   can't rush through quick stuff you have to read text and then eventually like it is so consumer focused [TS]

00:41:54   and same thing with installation put in the feedback thing right in your face. This is for regular people now. [TS]

00:42:00   Suppose I T. [TS]

00:42:01   People can do it as well but I see people they would just sign up for a MAC developer account [TS]

00:42:06   and have access to all that have seeds anyway and they would probably be using it more like a developer [TS]

00:42:10   and they have specific apps or specific you know things they're testing compatibility with [TS]

00:42:14   but they're not going to install on the person morphine [TS]

00:42:17   and use it every day for their work they really just install it on a test machine [TS]

00:42:19   and try out all their supported software and report bugs to whoever is appropriate for the stuff it doesn't work. [TS]

00:42:25   Right now that's my point is that a public beta doesn't really help with this moron and V.P.N. [TS]

00:42:30   Company what helps with with enterprise adoption is getting these moronic V.P.N. [TS]

00:42:36   Companies like Cisco that insists on having their own god awful clients to actually support new operating systems I [TS]

00:42:42   just feel like if though if what they're trying to accomplish is enterprise adoption I don't feel like a public beta is [TS]

00:42:48   the right lever to pull to get there. Yeah it was in there. Then we go through the whole thing with the Cisco V.P.N. [TS]

00:42:53   I'm not going to call them ironically as again their software works hasn't crashed hasn't caused kernel cracks unlike [TS]

00:42:58   some other companies Symantec antivirus please kill me. It's just the U.I. [TS]

00:43:06   Wise look I think last time I was it more or less that they had an update but sort of a release train [TS]

00:43:11   and they couldn't get their update to support Mavericks onto the release trainer will be out soon [TS]

00:43:15   or they had to get it out on the lawn later you know I think that software like that that is essential. [TS]

00:43:22   Should you know you get a long time to test with the assembly. [TS]

00:43:26   Whatever long it's been since June and into the fall like it should be available [TS]

00:43:30   and they want to say something about the O. S. Some bug in the O. S. That Apple has and fix that. [TS]

00:43:34   That you told them about an issue is like well we can't go until they fix that bug I don't you know do has a way a [TS]

00:43:40   couple weeks is that a big deal. Not really it's better than not being supported for years. [TS]

00:43:44   Again to be an example of that from my passes [TS]

00:43:47   when Oracle didn't have a sixty four bit client library for O S ten for literally years like [TS]

00:43:53   and it was just you know that's just inexcusable neglect Cisco was just behind by a week or two whatever [TS]

00:43:58   and there Macsoftware is not. [TS]

00:44:00   Great but there's a range of stuff here but the public beta is not even on the radar I think of these I.T. [TS]

00:44:07   People unless they're worried about their individual employees know about the public beta and trying to install it [TS]

00:44:12   or agitating that way. [TS]

00:44:14   Right and then that's kind of my point is that the public beta may do a lot of things for Apple [TS]

00:44:18   but I don't think it helps with enterprise adoption. [TS]

00:44:20   The other question I had which I don't know the answer to this would be [TS]

00:44:24   but where did these what did you call the thing that was on the dock that lets you submit feedback whatever the [TS]

00:44:30   feedback app is what it what is the output of that internal to Apple like oh those radars. What is that. [TS]

00:44:36   I bet it's I mean they probably use everything is probably all goes into radar eventually [TS]

00:44:40   but I'm sure they're tagged as coming from public that in some way. [TS]

00:44:43   Yeah it's just I know that Marco [TS]

00:44:46   and a couple other people friend of the show Daniel Jack in a few other people right around to be to be D.C. [TS]

00:44:51   Time were coming on back and forth about well is any real utility in filing radar blah blah blah [TS]

00:44:56   and this is not exactly a forgive me apples to apples comparison but nevertheless much kind of wonder. [TS]

00:45:04   I just kind of wonder if this is going to radar that sounds just freaking terrible because I got to imagine they're [TS]

00:45:11   overwhelmed with radars as layers I hope. [TS]

00:45:14   Well you'd be able to feel like if it is going to read I would only be because that's the only bucket they have [TS]

00:45:19   available for this [TS]

00:45:20   but it's not as if it would be suddenly cluttering up people's in boxes because there's got to be a process whereby [TS]

00:45:24   someone you know there's a first level three eyes of sorting through the giant avalanche of crap because it's coming [TS]

00:45:29   through the feedback agent to find anything actionable [TS]

00:45:31   and then throw it off into an engineering bucket like I don't think. [TS]

00:45:36   Suddenly after this launches people who would normally troll the radars for bugs have a big flood of stuff has got to [TS]

00:45:41   be layers of processes before it because so much of it is going to be like you know someone just put in the chair [TS]

00:45:48   and I think the new Finder icon is ugly. [TS]

00:45:49   Well maybe that was not you know not really actionable in the cemetery ten ten zero time frame. [TS]

00:45:56   Right and I mean I think you're right that the smart money says that it's. [TS]

00:46:00   If it is radar it's just radar with some sort of tag or whatever indication that it comes from the public [TS]

00:46:06   but currently I mean if we thought that that radars were black hole before all of this. [TS]

00:46:12   Well I got to imagine going to become an even bigger black hole after. [TS]

00:46:16   But like you said like they're not doing this just for their health. [TS]

00:46:19   They really believe that they're going to get I mean they have been ten one three [TS]

00:46:23   and four found things that they wouldn't of found otherwise for the developer stuff with the developer using it they [TS]

00:46:29   really believe that this way this is the only way [TS]

00:46:32   and the best way to get to find the bugs that they're just not finding [TS]

00:46:35   when just developers are using it so they're not going to let it just all sit in a bucket the whole point of this is [TS]

00:46:40   that they're mean it's you know it's a little like system for gold [TS]

00:46:42   but they're going to sift like they're not just going to let it all set there they're going to set for that gold [TS]

00:46:46   and hope to find like a one or two weird things or someone with an unexpected configuration [TS]

00:46:51   and they're going to look for the big ones crashers data loss kernel panics all all that good stuff. Right right. [TS]

00:46:56   And then my final question not because I would actually advocate you giving advice of this capacity [TS]

00:47:01   but I know we're going to get a million e-mails of already seen quite a few tweets if you were to recommend a backup [TS]

00:47:08   strategy that is the minimum viable backup strategy in order to safely install the assembly beta What do you think that [TS]

00:47:16   would be in broad strokes. [TS]

00:47:17   A super duper [TS]

00:47:19   or a time machine back up to a different Dr I think is what you have to protect yourself from is some catastrophic [TS]

00:47:28   stuff. [TS]

00:47:28   So there's a problem the install process like it doesn't even install successfully now you discus unbuildable you [TS]

00:47:33   shouldn't be sad because you just clone that entire disk superduper [TS]

00:47:36   and you just take out the bad disk boot off the super duper disk immediately clone from the super duper just back on [TS]

00:47:41   top of the bad disk [TS]

00:47:42   and you're OK But here is the thing that I could not fit in a tweet that people should understand there is still a risk [TS]

00:47:49   even if you install beta [TS]

00:47:51   and it seems to work fine for long use if you use it as your main machine that there's some sort of problem like oh I [TS]

00:47:56   use that for like a week and everything was fine but then there was some kind of bug. [TS]

00:48:00   Thing became unbelievable and I don't know what to do even if you have a super duper backup from a week ago. [TS]

00:48:05   There's a week's worth of work and maybe just a day's worth of work [TS]

00:48:08   or an hour's worth of work there's always a chance a day lost if you did something somewhere [TS]

00:48:12   and that stuff is not backed up and people can be just as pissed alike [TS]

00:48:16   but I wrote you know two thousand words of an article yesterday. You tell me the two thousand words are gone. [TS]

00:48:22   Like uh well you know you just did a back of yesterday should be fine no that was a whole day's worth of work like [TS]

00:48:26   people are pissed. [TS]

00:48:27   Sort of not in proportion to the amount of data that they lose it's just an emotional thing like all that was super [TS]

00:48:33   important or their restore from backup [TS]

00:48:36   and go oh I didn't realize that I was actually writing a draft locally in my email client a draft is gone you know. [TS]

00:48:42   Or like you you can lose data even [TS]

00:48:45   when you have a back up because if you keep using the computer you're producing new data [TS]

00:48:49   and if you're not backing up everything you produce every second [TS]

00:48:51   and nobody could possibly be backing up stuff every second you get I mean this is a learning lesson I guess maybe we [TS]

00:48:56   should let people go ahead learn learn better about like if there's no such thing as I am instantly backed up all the [TS]

00:49:02   time and I never lose any data. Not yet anyway. [TS]

00:49:04   Like I mean maybe with some crazy redundant realtime synchronous RAID system [TS]

00:49:09   or something you could have some chance of you know zero data loss even that you could you still could end up in a [TS]

00:49:18   situation where it's insisting on disk [TS]

00:49:20   but it's still meaningless because something was in the middle of doing something on a kernel pack anyway. [TS]

00:49:25   Yeah so to remember a time machine and you're still not entirely protected. You're never entirely protected. [TS]

00:49:31   Even you using a non bedo ass when you're working if something bad happens and the oldest goes corrupt [TS]

00:49:37   or you have a hardware failure you're going to lose everything that happened between your last backup and now [TS]

00:49:42   and nobody backs up every three seconds so that's you know that's life [TS]

00:49:47   and half what else is good these days Mark better than not backing up. [TS]

00:49:54   It is equal I mean I was typing this month this week. But instead it's a clue and they're pretty cool too. [TS]

00:50:00   So a clue is the Internet. [TS]

00:50:02   You actually like and I mean so first of all they have some important let me tell you quickly they didn't include this. [TS]

00:50:10   Internets are terrible usually theirs is good they have all these great features it's built by people you know who care [TS]

00:50:15   and that's saying a lot for an Internet company. That's that's unusual in that market. [TS]

00:50:22   A Lucent has a it's free for up to ten people who check it out. [TS]

00:50:25   Now they have a super exciting release coming this summer called The Unicorn. [TS]

00:50:30   We talked about you know corn on the show before it has a ton of new features [TS]

00:50:34   but the best integrated task management that will change how you stand track with your work. [TS]

00:50:39   It was a task can be assigned a different way depending on the work you're doing. [TS]

00:50:42   So one of the coolest ways to use task is you can create them directly on your content. So why do you need this. [TS]

00:50:48   Let's say when requesting updates on a graphic [TS]

00:50:50   or a text correction in a Word document you can create these tasks right on your content so you [TS]

00:50:55   and your team stay up to date on what has to be done next and it's all right there in one place. [TS]

00:51:00   When you're viewing content universe a blog event [TS]

00:51:02   or form topic Insider it will because it will support all those cool things. [TS]

00:51:06   These tasks are right there informing everyone of all types have been completed or some need additional work. [TS]

00:51:12   You could assign these tasks to yourself [TS]

00:51:13   or a team you can comment on these tasks you can keep all your changes all in one place and [TS]

00:51:18   when you're the one who's been assigned a task. [TS]

00:51:20   First of all I'm sorry [TS]

00:51:21   but all your tasks show up in a unified dashboard within your igloo as far as I know they don't have to stay in the [TS]

00:51:27   parking lot outside. [TS]

00:51:28   They are all unified dashboard with due date clearly marked making it super simple to manage your day to day work [TS]

00:51:33   and clarify your priorities. Unicorn is a free for all it will customers coming this summer. [TS]

00:51:40   Once again igloo is awesome their Internet is free for up to ten people check it out. [TS]

00:51:44   Learn more at a glue Software dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

00:51:49   Thank you very much Lou software once again for sponsoring our show they're really good. All right. [TS]

00:51:54   Anything else on the beta. John you said you installed it so what one has to install it. [TS]

00:52:00   Well I mean I don't have to visit the bill that's one of the first events like we discussed this way back [TS]

00:52:05   when we were first discussing the bit I think was after that and I said well they're going to do betas [TS]

00:52:08   but I'm sure that the developer releases are you know it's going to be a couple of data is like milestone wise [TS]

00:52:16   but in between it is going to be dead releases [TS]

00:52:18   and that is the case then the seeds will if you're on the mac developer program they will continue to release seeds of [TS]

00:52:24   Yosemite every two weeks or so they're going to have bigger gaps for the beta. [TS]

00:52:28   Mostly because you don't expect regular users to be subject to that kind of churn like regular users don't want to even [TS]

00:52:33   just doing through software update don't update their oh I said with that frequency so the public betas are going to be [TS]

00:52:39   sort of milestone releases [TS]

00:52:40   and in between there there's going to be smaller releases of developer use which means essentially public betas may not [TS]

00:52:46   necessarily correspond to any particular Deb release [TS]

00:52:48   and I believe that is actually the case with the public beta where on developer preview release four I can tell you [TS]

00:52:54   that to all the pre-release four is different than the public beta [TS]

00:52:57   and developer preview release three I think was also a different build. [TS]

00:53:00   So anyway those are just two different trains all pulling from the same source repository [TS]

00:53:06   but that is a difference in the program so developers you're not really missing anything by not being in the public [TS]

00:53:11   beta [TS]

00:53:11   and seeing that experience the reason I'm doing it is not for development reasons on developer for journalistic purposes [TS]

00:53:18   just to see like what it was experience like and what is Apple doing there they have a big fact on the thing [TS]

00:53:23   and interestingly in the fact I was wondered how they were going to handle this like how do you like come on [TS]

00:53:28   and do a beta thing [TS]

00:53:30   and if you want you know if you decide you don't want to know what are they going to tell them like Oh hi try this beta [TS]

00:53:35   I don't like it I want to go back to my old thing that's in the fact it says if you need help returning your mac you're [TS]

00:53:40   shipping version of O S ten and we started from a time machine back up which they told you to it too early [TS]

00:53:45   or you can call Apple Care to speak to a support specialist [TS]

00:53:48   or reference online documentation so they're basically saying look if you join this program [TS]

00:53:53   and you decide you want to go back [TS]

00:53:54   and you can't figure out how co-op of care I suppose that's something to the same Apple Care rules as everything else [TS]

00:53:59   like you. [TS]

00:54:00   Yet whatever ninety days free after they charge you but I suppose you could also shop at an Apple store [TS]

00:54:04   and say hey I joined this is seventy beta and I don't want any more. [TS]

00:54:08   Probably back to mavericks and then a lot of people are going to have a conversation and the person on the phone [TS]

00:54:13   or the genes are going to say OK so where's your backup [TS]

00:54:16   and you're going to go the what's my what I guess is what you guys get paid for [TS]

00:54:22   but the thing that Apple's essentially saying you know we will we're here for you if you want to like if you want to do [TS]

00:54:29   this really complicated thing anyone about out of it. [TS]

00:54:31   They also go on to say [TS]

00:54:33   but really if you just want to wait a little bit longer eventual Yosemite will be a shipping version of worst [TS]

00:54:38   and you'll be fine [TS]

00:54:39   and at the final interesting point I want to make is that Apple is explicitly promising that if you get this beta [TS]

00:54:45   and you just continue to run software update you will update right through to the retail version which I tweeted about [TS]

00:54:51   that and people like oh you've always been able to do that like more [TS]

00:54:54   or less most of the time you've been able to it's not a software update to the release version certainly install on top [TS]

00:55:00   to get the release version [TS]

00:55:03   but this is the first time that I can recall that Apple is explicitly saying this train of pre release software will [TS]

00:55:12   lead right into the really software. [TS]

00:55:15   It's a completely officially supported is not like you know you can get away with it and it will probably work [TS]

00:55:19   but you might have some weird like POS files left over this is a configuration Apple is supporting [TS]

00:55:24   and that they're going to presumably test [TS]

00:55:26   and make sure it really works of there's no weird left over turds from the pre released old screw with the release one [TS]

00:55:32   so that that is the technical term that some people are afraid of the like. [TS]

00:55:37   Some preface file will have changed format that it won't rewrite itself [TS]

00:55:40   when you install like the retail version of the O. S. [TS]

00:55:42   So you'll be left with the profile from the last build blast of building every time that launches it'll crash because [TS]

00:55:47   that you know some crappy thing like that that is eminently solvable [TS]

00:55:52   but just never came up in Apple testing because they'd never they didn't really support you taking the last day of [TS]

00:55:57   building and trying to install the retail on. Part of it. [TS]

00:56:00   Without like first erasing it or whatever but here they're giving it their blessing [TS]

00:56:04   and saying you'll be fine which I mean they have to do obviously you have to tell these people OK now erase your desk [TS]

00:56:09   and you know or restore from your backup and install the retail they just want people to get the beta [TS]

00:56:14   and of keeping software updated that will carry them right through to the release build. [TS]

00:56:19   Well that's convenient I still don't really get the motivation for installing a beta less like on like on my phone [TS]

00:56:26   when I was a developer for that that made sense. [TS]

00:56:28   I still now I am a developer for the phone and I still haven't sold the I was a beta. [TS]

00:56:32   I keep I keep planning on it on the beta for but I keep having other more important things to do [TS]

00:56:37   but like on the mac I would I would never install a beta less on my Mac. I'm like that's where I get my work done. [TS]

00:56:43   Well yeah you would if you were trying to hand off the overcast. [TS]

00:56:47   No I wouldn't even thought of a megaphone phone unlike a laptop. [TS]

00:56:50   Oh yeah our developers have lots of spare Macs or whatever you like installing. [TS]

00:56:55   Most people only have one MAC That is their main value of the whole thing was like That's why I don't think most people [TS]

00:56:59   are going to back up so installing a spring in my spare macaroni max three is right of course developers developers [TS]

00:57:07   have a million of them and hoarders like me have no hit home or not it is never throw them out or sell them [TS]

00:57:11   but regular people don't act that way so I mean I don't think there's going to be lots and lots of spam X. [TS]

00:57:17   or If you know they didn't have spare mags the spare ones are going to be old and I don't like I thought the old one [TS]

00:57:22   or the spare Macs exist for some purpose if the kids computer is ongoing or it's you know it's a MacMini on the T.V. [TS]

00:57:28   or Something like that. There's a server in the house is something. [TS]

00:57:31   Usually there's some kind of purpose for people to have multiple computers so fun fact [TS]

00:57:35   when I was a kid I don't remember how old I was but like twelve or something like that. [TS]

00:57:41   Dad brought home a box full of three and a half inch diskettes from work I want to say it was like thirty of them [TS]

00:57:48   or something like that. [TS]

00:57:49   And sure enough that was the I was to warp beta which I installed from three [TS]

00:57:53   and a half inch disks which took went down and a half and that crap was awesome. Then work was great. [TS]

00:58:01   I miss those days. Me I'm dying wish I think we're the only ones and miss it I miss it. Who ever used. [TS]

00:58:07   Also true that eventually T.M.C. That was it that it. We good things. Oh thank God we're three sponsor this week. [TS]

00:58:16   However Linda dot com and igloo and we will see you all next week. Now this show is over the weekend. [TS]

00:58:29   It was accidental accidental John and you are now sitting on the thing itself to that skill list [TS]

00:59:00   and the did you guys unfolding right into now. No want to do that. Yes you so nice I can listen I still read. [TS]

00:59:31   I have I haven't been testing some new headphones but of course you have a rich person headphone rental service. [TS]

00:59:39   I don't I would think they would have a thing. [TS]

00:59:41   I got of the whole thing about being a rich person is you don't rent the headphones to just buy them. [TS]

00:59:46   Well these headphones require a special amp and to buy them both. [TS]

00:59:50   I'm sure they do like regular amps don't even like the Cell phones are so ridiculous that a regular amp doesn't have [TS]

00:59:58   enough power to power them. Once you connect the speaker terminals of a speaker amp. [TS]

01:00:03   My goodness is that the one I read your big heads on poles [TS]

01:00:06   and you said you mention one of the headphones that you didn't that didn't have the power as a new different pair of [TS]

01:00:11   crazy headphones. [TS]

01:00:12   This isn't this is not mentioned that pose this is the paramount in the footer saying I would love to try these on time [TS]

01:00:17   but I don't know I don't know where I could try to find them and then email people email you [TS]

01:00:21   and say the service runs them. [TS]

01:00:22   Yeah exactly and so I But you know to buy the headphones and the amp would be like three thousand dollars [TS]

01:00:28   and for that you pretty much can't try them in person anywhere you know you can't walk into a Best Buy They don't have [TS]

01:00:34   they don't have things that are the specialize you know because they come with a single directional oxygen free crystal [TS]

01:00:39   enhanced cables are now you know that's a most of that crap is what the after market people in the hobbyist do the the [TS]

01:00:45   ones that come stock even on the fanciest cables [TS]

01:00:48   or even the fan his headphones the stock cables are like pretty low on the B.S. Meter. [TS]

01:00:53   Like you know the they they're balanced cables which means they're four pins that are three [TS]

01:00:57   and a huge giant axle are plugs Minette that's that's to provide some kind of benefit I'm not quite sure on the on the [TS]

01:01:05   rationale there but. So these headphones on a girl I mean come on their amazing. Yeah yeah they're shockingly good. [TS]

01:01:11   That's that's that's the gist of it but I don't I'm not crazy about the amp it's giant and the volume knob. [TS]

01:01:19   It's one of these things this is really ridiculous I feel bad for even talking about this rather than a typical pot on [TS]

01:01:27   a volume knob because just like I believe there usually goes like a variable resistor right potentiometer that's what [TS]

01:01:34   pot is short for India. [TS]

01:01:36   Well headphone nerds don't like regular volume knob pots because they apparently they're imprecise [TS]

01:01:43   and they maybe affect the sound quality somehow [TS]

01:01:46   and that in some other ways like there's there's issues with like Channel imbalance where like the left channel like [TS]

01:01:51   it's slightly lower than the right a certain position of an obvious because of the I guess the waiter made [TS]

01:01:55   or their quality level whatever and so the volume knob on this fancy amp. [TS]

01:02:00   Is just like a notched selector and it turns this giant rob the ghost of the entire length of the amp [TS]

01:02:06   and it goes to this tremendous drum in the back where each Notch has a pair of resistors like regular resistors [TS]

01:02:15   and it's just like turning away it's like a giant like knife switch almost that turns between these pairs of resistors [TS]

01:02:21   to just alternate so that there is no setting like between not one and two [TS]

01:02:26   and it's just this giant drum of all these different resistors for all the different volumes of things that is crazy. [TS]

01:02:32   Yeah it's pretty funny I mean it's like it's funny how how crazy this is Anyway once I want to look over weren't [TS]

01:02:37   talking I look I'm talking about the hi fi man. E.F. Six amp and the eighty six orthodontic headphones. [TS]

01:02:44   Here's a question for your crazy audio file people which is just market here [TS]

01:02:49   but he can relate to what is the general accepted wisdom about headphones [TS]

01:02:56   or speakers like if you want like the best possible whatever the hell their definition of best as I can assume there is [TS]

01:03:02   a most accurate [TS]

01:03:03   or whatever listening experience is it better to have if you have unlimited funds to build like the building you're [TS]

01:03:08   going to have as a listening experience in right. Just unlimited fund is headphones the way to go or speakers. [TS]

01:03:15   I am not familiar enough with the speaker world to say I can at least say that in the headphone world [TS]

01:03:23   and one of the big differences is like really really nice headphones like the most of what people consider the best [TS]

01:03:30   headphones in the world. Cost about fifteen hundred bucks or less. [TS]

01:03:36   I'm pretty sure nobody in the speaker Aubut say that any of the best beakers in the world are below like ten grand. [TS]

01:03:42   Yeah I mean it's a pretty much it's a giant price difference [TS]

01:03:46   and so that that's one of the big reasons why people like high end headphones so much because they're so much more [TS]

01:03:52   accessible. You know high end speakers are basically expensive US cars like there you can see. [TS]

01:04:00   Or more you know one hundred thousand years it was like some you know because like there's arguments to where those [TS]

01:04:05   people are planning on the chat room. [TS]

01:04:07   The speaker argument is that no headphone is ever going to give you sort of that whole body base feeling that you get [TS]

01:04:13   sitting in front of a speaker that has you know a powerful speaker that I like it's not going to be a full body [TS]

01:04:18   experience just having on yours [TS]

01:04:20   but on the other hand you would think all the things they can screw up the sound in a speaker as it moves around the [TS]

01:04:24   room and I'm going I'm saying you can build the room you want like you have unlimited funds right. [TS]

01:04:28   Build it everyone but all over things that could go wrong there. [TS]

01:04:31   It's like we can cut out all the middlemen and just go like I can put thing right next year [TS]

01:04:36   and a half drive a lot of power because right next year year or so I can get you know super accurate [TS]

01:04:40   or whatever so you that that's the argument for headphones like we cut out all that crap that all the things all the [TS]

01:04:46   potential problems of the sound in an ideal situation like you're not going to build a building of your speakers yet to [TS]

01:04:51   put them in the room that you have. [TS]

01:04:53   And in that case maybe you're better off headphones because we don't have to worry about all the sound bouncing around [TS]

01:04:58   all over the place. Yeah I agree in my dad is a pretty big stereo nut. [TS]

01:05:02   And he has a really nice set up which is not limited to vinyl before I get a million e-mails he has a fancy CD player [TS]

01:05:09   as well. [TS]

01:05:10   But anyway it's a really nice set up with really nice speakers [TS]

01:05:13   and I don't even want to think about how much it all cost. [TS]

01:05:15   But he swears [TS]

01:05:17   and as I've sworn to Marco many times that the best speakers he's ever heard are some custom molded in your monitors [TS]

01:05:26   that he got from Ultimate Ears that are literally he had the molded for the shape of his ear canal I know Marco that [TS]

01:05:33   you swear that you can't use them in their own company and blah blah blah [TS]

01:05:36   but I would imagine based on the not custom molded Ultimate Ears that I have which are far [TS]

01:05:42   and away the best speakers I've ever heard. I can only I can only imagine how amazing these things are. [TS]

01:05:49   So to me I would guess that in in your monitor or something like it would probably be the best that you can get it. [TS]

01:05:56   Most people who have who are experts in the field and have tried it. [TS]

01:06:00   You're monitors and really fancy headphones do not share that opinion. Real new monitors are very well respected. [TS]

01:06:07   People love them no question. [TS]

01:06:09   However people love the headphones better and like the experts who review like all the top everything like [TS]

01:06:16   when it's a pretty small field really. [TS]

01:06:18   But in your model I mean and so I can't say that I as Katie said I can't really wear them they hurt my ears too much. [TS]

01:06:24   Even the ones there are ones that are more comfortable and I've never tried custom Yes please don't email me [TS]

01:06:29   but I'm very happy with those headphones instead [TS]

01:06:33   and I think you know it's it probably has a lot to do you know John I think you're right like headphones can do a lot [TS]

01:06:41   that that speakers can't do easily. [TS]

01:06:43   It is all about the room like for me to build an audio listening room with speakers that would be the same quality I'm [TS]

01:06:51   getting from from my headphones that cost of thousand bucks or less often. [TS]

01:06:57   And granted I know that sounds ridiculous to pay even that much for headphones I very aware of that [TS]

01:07:03   and I don't expect anybody to do that. [TS]

01:07:06   But if you're really into high quality music it's really a pretty amazing value compared to speakers [TS]

01:07:15   and it's just in practice like I'm usually listening while I'm at my computer working. [TS]

01:07:20   It's harder to do that with speakers it's harder to arrange the room it's much larger things [TS]

01:07:25   and then the rest of the house hears whatever you're listening to and you hear the rest of the house. [TS]

01:07:30   So it's it just is so much more practical and it seals you win. [TS]

01:07:36   And so you you're able to concentrate on things whether it's the music or something else or both. [TS]

01:07:42   You're not getting that full body bass you're not well but yeah depends what you like. [TS]

01:07:46   Like I don't need full body bass I think the other people like my neighbors and the rest of my family [TS]

01:07:53   and my dog probably wouldn't appreciate the full body bass either. Headphones are really fantastic. [TS]

01:08:00   A To immerse yourself in extremely high quality music. [TS]

01:08:04   For not that much money and you know you can go pretty high [TS]

01:08:07   but even like what most people consider the best headphones in the world are about five thousand dollars [TS]

01:08:11   and even those almost no headphone or even go to that level. That's extremely rare. [TS]

01:08:17   The in ear ones like that's even more cutting out the middleman like us you get right down [TS]

01:08:22   and they're actually there right next to the air dry was like you you know the next step is is kind of the ear drum of [TS]

01:08:26   the right to the nerves but like the limitation there I bet is [TS]

01:08:30   when you get that close you know you're limited by what kind of machinery to move there. [TS]

01:08:36   Can you fit in someone there can yes that's absolutely true. [TS]

01:08:39   And so that's I don't imagine that the that the the sweet spot for accuracy versus cutting out the middleman is [TS]

01:08:46   probably not shoved into your ear but you know when US [TS]

01:08:49   and I don't know I don't know if you have right so let's talk about something a little more accessible. [TS]

01:08:54   Three I wish I just put a link in the chat we'll have it in the show notes. [TS]

01:09:00   John do you remember this tweet that you tweeted at men a couple days ago as a new Did you get a Playstation three [TS]

01:09:08   or four so I borrowed a Playstation three and I bought a Playstation three specifically to play journey Lou [TS]

01:09:17   and I played journey what [TS]

01:09:20   and where you were you spoiled before you played you know anything about it besides it is called Journey. [TS]

01:09:25   I'm not really and you had some to do with the scarf and I was about the extent of it [TS]

01:09:29   but that's what the reasonable at this point as a result spoiler for it now were it was your Play Station connected [TS]

01:09:35   online when you played it. Yes And did you know that that that it should be or it was just an accident of ice. [TS]

01:09:42   OK so I guess I feared I didn't know that there was potential that I would run into other people in that I may [TS]

01:09:47   or may not be able to interact with them or if I could I like couldn't use like text [TS]

01:09:52   or anything in order to do so because I think I may have listened to the hypercritical we're going to use a [TS]

01:09:58   hypercritical but I don't my memory sticks. [TS]

01:10:00   Here is boiled just boil but you didn't but you're you're a spoiler freeness is powered by apathy. [TS]

01:10:05   You have heard spoilers [TS]

01:10:06   but you didn't care at the times the writing is in the Gotten of them yet you're both absolutely correct. [TS]

01:10:11   So let me start by saying that getting journey on to this Play Station is so fucking annoying that it is a testament to [TS]

01:10:21   how much I love you that I even played the game. [TS]

01:10:23   If you had told me you were doing this I would have told you I told Marco to do which is to buy a code on Amazon for [TS]

01:10:30   Playstation points so you don't have to give Sony a credit card. [TS]

01:10:33   Presumably Amazon already has your credit card and you're comfortable with that and then you get a digital code [TS]

01:10:38   and then enter that code. [TS]

01:10:39   Annoyingly Yes but if that's the you know the hang up that you don't do that [TS]

01:10:43   and it's super annoying to even enter your credit card in places anyway so. [TS]

01:10:46   Well it's funny you bring that up John because here's my experience. [TS]

01:10:50   Plugging in this Play Station and trying to use it again it's a Playstation three. [TS]

01:10:53   It's actually want to borrow it from my parents because my parents got it way back when [TS]

01:10:58   when they wanted a Blu ray player and at the time it was basically the cheapest we replay [TS]

01:11:01   or you could get him in keeping this for me all the time that your parents have this Playstation just sitting there. [TS]

01:11:05   Yeah that's true and it was a first gentleman that's even worse. [TS]

01:11:09   Yes it was very early on I don't know anything about Playstation three Zor really video games at all [TS]

01:11:15   but I know for a fact that this was bought pretty darn early might have one with hardware Playstation two support that [TS]

01:11:22   is actually a rare and wonderful thing that you probably don't care about [TS]

01:11:26   but it's significant that I don't care don't I understand the word you're saying [TS]

01:11:30   but I have no idea what why that's awesome. But anyway the point is I plug it in. [TS]

01:11:35   Well the first problem I had was when I borrowed it from mom and dad they didn't give me controllers [TS]

01:11:39   and I kind of forgot to ask for them. [TS]

01:11:42   I said going to make it hard to do anything you play with a Bluetooth remote I do it a few days until I actually had [TS]

01:11:49   the D.V.D. [TS]

01:11:50   Remote kind of how I was playing that flew Ray when I made that tweet about how loud it was [TS]

01:11:55   but anyway please tell me you didn't play journey with the bit with the D.V.D. Remote. No no no no no no. [TS]

01:12:01   So anyway still I eventually got a couple of controllers from them [TS]

01:12:05   and I knew enough to know that I needed to plug them in via U.S.B. [TS]

01:12:08   and That I was pretty sure that I could use them even though they were dead while the U.S.B. [TS]

01:12:12   Cord was plugged in which was fine OK whatever. [TS]

01:12:14   So the first thing I do when I turn on the Playstation once I had bothered to connect it to the Internet. [TS]

01:12:21   Of course I need to do a system update that work. I don't remember something like half an hour an hour fine. [TS]

01:12:27   So then I need to go to the Playstation Store I assume so I can buy journey time. Go to Play Station Store. [TS]

01:12:35   Well you need to do another update. Are you freaking kidding me I just did a system. No you need to do a store update. [TS]

01:12:41   OK well now I have to download the sixty five make update and install it that hook easily and I want to have two hours. [TS]

01:12:49   No idea why it was connected via Eastern MOCA bridge and then all the way up to the router. [TS]

01:12:55   I have thirty five thirty five Internet I have no idea what the brain is a bad piece in this chain was. [TS]

01:13:00   It's like you're reliving two thousand and six all over again. [TS]

01:13:03   Go back in time and look at all the webcomics they were claimed others exact thing. [TS]

01:13:08   Yeah the Playstation three is an update machine. [TS]

01:13:11   Yup so like two [TS]

01:13:13   or three hours after I connect the Playstation to the Internet which I should say before I connected it to the Internet. [TS]

01:13:20   I did a lot more stuff and was a lot more fiddly than I wanted but it worked. [TS]

01:13:24   I plugged in I put a Blu ray in the drive it played it and I was happy but then I connected it to the Internet [TS]

01:13:31   and all hell broke loose. [TS]

01:13:33   So anyway so I do the system update that takes like half an hour an hour I do the store update that's takes an hour [TS]

01:13:37   or two. Then I go to purchase journey. [TS]

01:13:41   I'm all excited with myself then and I'm going to purchase it and it says OK you're going to pay with such [TS]

01:13:47   and such credit card which was my parents' credit card. Well I don't want to do that. [TS]

01:13:52   No I don't want to do that so it says OK well you can't buy the game again if you had talked to me first [TS]

01:13:57   and told me you're going to tell you you can buy journey out. [TS]

01:14:00   An optical disk and then you were stuck in and the drivers are playing it probably wouldn't at first [TS]

01:14:04   but still it would have had to ask if that would ruin the surprise. [TS]

01:14:08   So here I am ignoramus extraordinary at least in this capacity [TS]

01:14:11   and I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get it to allow me to put in my own frickin credit card number so [TS]

01:14:19   eventually I give up and ask Erin who is sitting behind me to go ahead [TS]

01:14:24   and just Google how the after you've change your credit card number in the Play Station one why is that the fallback [TS]

01:14:31   frustration when you just buy it and give your parents fifteen bucks. [TS]

01:14:34   OK That was the other thing I didn't mention that I agree [TS]

01:14:39   but whatever the credit card number was which I called my dad and confirmed was the correct number. [TS]

01:14:44   He indicated that the Play Station would not accept which might have been an expiration date issue [TS]

01:14:50   but I couldn't even change that so I didn't know what to do. [TS]

01:14:54   Eventually I tried to get into or I find that I need to go into like my account [TS]

01:14:59   or dad's account I guess I should say go into its like Account Settings and billing settings. [TS]

01:15:03   Well even though I'm already logged in as my dad and it's happy with that. [TS]

01:15:09   When I go to go to the billing settings it says what your password so I enter the password that my dad has given to me. [TS]

01:15:14   Doesn't accept it. He goes to the Web site. [TS]

01:15:17   This is from his house I'm at my house he goes to the Web site enters the exact same password Oh everything works [TS]

01:15:22   magically So we do that whole dance for like half an hour trying to figure out how the crap to get me in to the point [TS]

01:15:29   that I can just update my payment. [TS]

01:15:31   All I want to do is give somebody fifteen dollars [TS]

01:15:35   and I'm going through at least half an hour to an hour of pain to do that. [TS]

01:15:41   So eventually we figured out eventually I can buy journey eventually it downloads [TS]

01:15:46   and I think did so quicker than the damn store update even though journey was like half a gig in the store it was fifty [TS]

01:15:52   or sixty max by the way is why I recommend forever [TS]

01:15:55   and I thought the play journey dedicated to installing it did not play it on the same day that you download. [TS]

01:16:00   Just take it day like and again this is all happened so this is all happening last night. [TS]

01:16:04   I didn't know if I would have time to do all this tonight I have a serious urgency because I really want to talk about [TS]

01:16:10   it today because I figured it would be a little bit of a shorter show. [TS]

01:16:13   I am freaking out and also because I'm high strung and ridiculous [TS]

01:16:17   but anyway eventually I finally get to the point that I can start journey and I played it and I liked it. [TS]

01:16:32   I do not think everyone will switch. [TS]

01:16:34   Not yet I've totally recommend staying they were [TS]

01:16:38   and the reason I recommend people take a day is not so much because like oh the Playstation always takes a day to [TS]

01:16:43   install anything is because the people I'm tying to play journey if they haven't already played it. [TS]

01:16:47   They're probably either not gamers or don't have a Playstation three which means they're going to be to borrow one. [TS]

01:16:52   Which is worse when it's like someone else's account and as you were being honored as your dad's [TS]

01:16:55   and measure of someone's account you weren't related to those issues. [TS]

01:17:00   If you have a Playstation and use it all the time yet still those annoying updates and still frequently [TS]

01:17:05   when you turn around I want to do not date [TS]

01:17:06   but you don't have like seventeen of them queued up like my Playstation three right now is completely up to date with [TS]

01:17:11   everything. [TS]

01:17:12   If I wanted to buy a game [TS]

01:17:13   and a place to store I go right into the store I buy it everything's all set up I have money in my play there's an [TS]

01:17:17   account. [TS]

01:17:18   Boom boom boom wait for the download refuse to take that long [TS]

01:17:21   and play so the experience for people who haven't used a Playstation three all the time. [TS]

01:17:26   Still not ideal but it's much better that used to be to give an example way back in the early days. [TS]

01:17:31   The Playstation three can even do background downloads so you beast. [TS]

01:17:34   Different thing would be paralyzed by downloading something like Oh just like the store was yesterday well that's like [TS]

01:17:40   more of an update on thing like you just buy a game has like was down on the game I'm going to play something else [TS]

01:17:45   and be like nope you're going to sit here and are going to progress bar. [TS]

01:17:48   So things have gotten better [TS]

01:17:49   and Playstation four is even better in that you can start playing the game before it even downloads because one of the [TS]

01:17:53   big features they tout because they're you know they have learned their lesson essentially all the things you complain [TS]

01:17:57   about on the Playstation three. Every one of those has something address. [TS]

01:18:00   Play Station four to make it not be that terrible. This is STILL have a giant loud fan all the time. [TS]

01:18:04   Oh the fan is so bad. Yeah I'll handle that. [TS]

01:18:07   The fan even on the slim one there and I haven't tried the current model which is the one even smaller than this one [TS]

01:18:12   but people say on that one the fan is better [TS]

01:18:15   but you can hear the optical drive more originally not a problem with a lot of games [TS]

01:18:18   but like they made it so thin like the sound of the little mechanism is loud. [TS]

01:18:22   You know all these things are are not great noise wise [TS]

01:18:25   but I mean the update issues are still a problem in that there are frequent updates [TS]

01:18:31   and no matter how smooth you make the update process an hour quickly it downloads if you're doing an O. S. [TS]

01:18:35   Level up that you have to reboot the thing [TS]

01:18:37   and it's frustrating if those come out more than if those come out more frequently than you play essentially every time [TS]

01:18:43   you turn on your Playstation three there will be an update. [TS]

01:18:45   Sure is for me [TS]

01:18:46   and that's what happened with this one is my my parents definitely use the Playstation as a Blu ray player [TS]

01:18:54   and to my knowledge when it's in their own house it's connected I to be even better there or their wife and I [TS]

01:18:59   but they never do things like go to the store for example to buy anything. The Playstation Store. [TS]

01:19:05   So you're exactly right that in my case I was set up for a complete and utter pain [TS]

01:19:10   and suffering because they don't do the sorts of things that I was trying to do even early on there was a place just [TS]

01:19:16   for the Blu ray player functionality. [TS]

01:19:18   I mean that sort of settle down and you know you didn't keep adding updates that the like [TS]

01:19:22   and general I like I would rather have more frequent small updates than have to wait till I get to our thing every once [TS]

01:19:27   in a while because I don't play the games on it that often these days I don't even use it for its like media streaming [TS]

01:19:34   capabilities because I have all sorts of other solutions mostly involving the phonology to do my media streaming I [TS]

01:19:40   don't mind when I turn on [TS]

01:19:41   and there's an update factored into the time I'm going to play I don't say OK I'm going to dedicate a half an hour [TS]

01:19:46   playing [TS]

01:19:46   and you know I assume is going to be there because the last time I turn the thing on was like you know three weeks ago. [TS]

01:19:51   I would rather have them update the software than just leave me [TS]

01:19:54   but for example my Tivo I know the new version if you go so far out but the update I keep going you know. [TS]

01:20:00   Updates like they roll it out slowly I want the update now so I like software updates. [TS]

01:20:04   This is one of those things that like I think it contributes substantially to game consuls now being so unappealing to [TS]

01:20:13   the mass market like so it's like there are to really enjoy a game console. You have to be extremely dedicated to it. [TS]

01:20:19   This is one of the reasons they've lost casual gaming as like a main market because like if you're a casual gamer the [TS]

01:20:26   experience of using a modern game console sucks way worse than if you don't time. [TS]

01:20:30   Well I know but like it's still way better than a P.C. Which is like the you know the it's all a spectrum. [TS]

01:20:36   Oh sure but you know compared to like in the olden days if you hadn't any answer Janice's you turn around [TS]

01:20:40   and you start playing the game and if you can turn on a form of Doesn't matter is just Arthur [TS]

01:20:44   but the thing is like there's benefits to offset that [TS]

01:20:46   and the benefits are that if you bought an original Playstation three when you first got it it was crappy [TS]

01:20:51   and it got better over time through software update it could do more things right [TS]

01:20:54   and it was you know like that that is a phenomena when you had your any acid [TS]

01:20:57   and getting new capabilities two years down the line whereas you got your Playstation it did get better over time so [TS]

01:21:01   that's not true. [TS]

01:21:02   What I got I got the memory pack thing for the in sixty four I thought and he asked at the end sixty four [TS]

01:21:08   and that's a hardware upgrade not a software upgrade but like I mean I'm just being silly [TS]

01:21:12   and then sixty four had no fans and their controllers didn't get their hands ugly Well that's debatable [TS]

01:21:20   but let me read parts of that here your your thoughts on the game not listening to this section of the after dark if [TS]

01:21:30   you have not played journey because we will spoil the spoil the entire game for you all Journey spoiler conditions [TS]

01:21:35   apply. [TS]

01:21:35   Marco is allowed to listen because he doesn't care to be seen as wife play both played it [TS]

01:21:42   but if you have not played journey did not listen to this part of the after dark. [TS]

01:21:45   OK So the first impression I have won't let me back up just a smidge I thought it was like some sort of side scroller [TS]

01:21:52   which I'm sure you know I know that I'm glad you thought that I know that's extremely ignorant of me [TS]

01:21:58   but I just really don't care. These sorts of things. [TS]

01:22:01   So I lie would lie would rather have you be a great I wish you knew nothing about it. [TS]

01:22:04   So the first couple of impressions I had while the first thing I wrote down was that the soundtrack was good [TS]

01:22:12   and then by the end of the game I upgraded it to incredible because I thought the soundtrack was on believe that if you [TS]

01:22:19   can buy an i Tunes It is one of the best soundtracks ever made Haas and wintery is amazing. [TS]

01:22:24   It was really incredibly incredibly good. [TS]

01:22:28   The second thing I had written down in was basically my second impression was that it was visually very big especially [TS]

01:22:33   when you know what it was going to be a side scroller the world in which you play is quite a bit larger than I had [TS]

01:22:41   expected it to be and and I really was impressed by that. [TS]

01:22:49   The other thing was I was within about five or ten minutes I started seeing other people [TS]

01:22:57   and I wasn't I wasn't one hundred percent sure if those were what is it what is the term N.P.C.S. or For actual humans. [TS]

01:23:09   And I thought they were humans. [TS]

01:23:11   But the way one or two people I'd seen they behaved in such a way that I I couldn't really tell. [TS]

01:23:18   And so most of the game I was having this debate with myself whether [TS]

01:23:23   or not they were actual people on the other end of those characters. [TS]

01:23:28   And this is despite the fact that you knew that there was a possibility you could see other people in the game. Yes. [TS]

01:23:33   And so I thought like the background knowledge I had made me think these were actual people. [TS]

01:23:40   But I tried to look at it objectively [TS]

01:23:42   and there was at first there was nothing that I saw that convinced me that this was a human being. [TS]

01:23:47   I think people who don't play games a lot have much more faith in computer control players than I don't think that [TS]

01:23:54   anyone who plays video games all the time can immediately distinguish a human from an AI because they are just so. [TS]

01:24:00   No in games. Yeah well you know I mean it's been a long time since I played these sorts of games but in any case. [TS]

01:24:05   So I went through I don't know the first I'll call it level which I don't mean that dismissively [TS]

01:24:11   but I went to the first level or two and eventually I got well firstly I realize that this was a puzzle game [TS]

01:24:17   and to me having played Monument Valley before this it felt vaguely similar to Monument Valley although clearly a very [TS]

01:24:26   very very different animal. [TS]

01:24:28   And again I don't mean that to be offensive I apologize to you John if there isn't anyone else that really likes [TS]

01:24:34   journey but [TS]

01:24:35   but that's what I thought I was you know this kind of Monument Valley there's puzzles there kind of self-explanatory I [TS]

01:24:41   did by the way I really like that. [TS]

01:24:43   The only sort of tutorial or help was occasionally a little outline or kind of overlay of the controller came up [TS]

01:24:49   and told you to either push or hold something. But anyway after a couple of stages levels what have you. [TS]

01:24:55   I ended up kind of going through a level with somebody and I didn't pay close enough attention to see that [TS]

01:25:06   when they spoke if you will if that symbol was the same symbol I saw two or three levels later [TS]

01:25:13   when I was still kind of playing with somebody [TS]

01:25:16   and what I did find however was that I I really wanted to see where this was going and be cooperative [TS]

01:25:25   and the indication I got from kind of body language for lack of a better description was that this other person also [TS]

01:25:32   wanted to play cooperatively [TS]

01:25:33   and so there were a couple of levels like one where you kind of got an A not to describe it [TS]

01:25:38   but there was like a center column and you had to go around different pedestals around the outside [TS]

01:25:43   and you had to climb I know I know the level. [TS]

01:25:45   OK And so I don't I don't look at it move on it at one point we kind of got separated [TS]

01:25:53   and I you know I was sad about that and then it occurred to me why am I saying. [TS]

01:26:00   Well I think I have no idea who this person is I'm not even one hundred percent convinced it is a person I think it's a [TS]

01:26:06   person. [TS]

01:26:06   Your motion ship was activated by motion ship had indeed activated it because your you know it's because your Play [TS]

01:26:12   Station has the Emotion Engine That was a Playstation two. [TS]

01:26:18   Exactly Emma he has the P S two hardware you know that I'm right. [TS]

01:26:23   Finally I made a reference that you bombed on her you know I don't buy monitors this [TS]

01:26:28   and it was not the right generation of capital. You were just wrong. [TS]

01:26:30   No I was saying it was because he is known in this fabulous weather has had [TS]

01:26:35   or is that it might have hardware is a part of we never he didn't know you just can't be wrong. [TS]

01:26:41   Act like I finally got you wrong on something. Anyway let's concentrate on the facts here. But you're right. [TS]

01:26:49   So anyway so I realized I was kind of sad about it and then eventually like a level [TS]

01:26:54   or two later I wound up being next to another person and it very well could have been a totally different person [TS]

01:27:01   but again because I wasn't paying close enough attention to the little symbol that that came up when they spoke. [TS]

01:27:07   I told myself this is the same person all my buddies back [TS]

01:27:10   and I was like all excited about it I was really happy again [TS]

01:27:14   and it just after the game was over to occur to me that that is a really peculiar reaction in motional investment I got [TS]

01:27:24   from something that I wasn't even unequivocally convinced was indeed a human being. [TS]

01:27:29   Well now you can read my article on here and if you haven't already. [TS]

01:27:32   I don't remember if I have I want to say I have not [TS]

01:27:34   but either way I was I was really taken aback by how emotional I got about trying to get through this with my buddy. [TS]

01:27:43   So when when you got to the underground level were you with somebody you know. [TS]

01:27:48   Yes I believe so but we got separated for a long time and I don't know if we finished together [TS]

01:27:53   and I think of that as like as you go on the levels become sort of more fraught with danger [TS]

01:27:57   and like companionship becomes more important. [TS]

01:28:00   Towards the end of the game [TS]

01:28:01   and it's like if you're with someone in the early kind of playing around levels then you know that's that's one thing [TS]

01:28:07   but like Later on I go I could be more important to be with somebody. [TS]

01:28:11   Yeah I got to tell you [TS]

01:28:13   when those like creepy shooter kill you preacher guy things came that scared the piss out of me and I wasn't. [TS]

01:28:22   I'm still not sure can you like can can you get actually killed by these things [TS]

01:28:26   or does it just take away like your ability to fly or whatever. [TS]

01:28:30   Now you should also listen to the after dark with Tiff and I [TS]

01:28:33   and the what he called the incomparable observer talking returning as we address these very issues that's the whole [TS]

01:28:39   thing about the game. You don't know there's no life meter There's no heart right. [TS]

01:28:43   There's no like well but you're your scarf got smaller right [TS]

01:28:46   but there is no there is no established gameplay mechanic where you are where you're sure can I die can I not die. [TS]

01:28:54   Do I take damage. [TS]

01:28:55   Does one hit kill me if I have you know the only thing you have going for you is like if I fall from a height will I [TS]

01:29:00   get hurt and they sort of train you on that early on that you sort of flowed [TS]

01:29:03   and you have the butterflies of pretty much are not going to die from a fall but everything else is up for grabs [TS]

01:29:08   and nothing threatens you and [TS]

01:29:09   when something does threaten you the game has not established up front rules that make you confident that you know how [TS]

01:29:17   much life do I have are you know can I can I get hurt or can I die. OK it was my abilities. [TS]

01:29:22   Yeah and it was it was weird [TS]

01:29:24   and I should also go back I forgot to mention I was looking at my notes that developing some sort of like a language [TS]

01:29:31   between you and your body is an odd odd odd experience [TS]

01:29:36   and I'm not sure if we really succeeded in developing a you know making air quotes language [TS]

01:29:41   but it was weird like does just saying it like just just just hitting what is that circle to like do a momentary ping [TS]

01:29:49   if you will is that a happy thing is that a sad thing. [TS]

01:29:53   If I mash on the circle repeatedly [TS]

01:29:54   and so on like blabbering is that happy is that said if I do the hold the circle thing. [TS]

01:30:00   Do the like really loud shouty thing is that happy yours. Did you figure out how to sit down. [TS]

01:30:07   You probably saw your companion sit down perhaps I want to be fair at how you yourself could sit down at like the end [TS]

01:30:11   of a level. No any time now. [TS]

01:30:14   Now I didn't know that they are like at this point if you see someone in the game chances are good that it's someone [TS]

01:30:18   who's played the game multiple times before and they're playing it again and they would know how to do that. [TS]

01:30:23   That's something you can do one of the one of the you don't have a lot of choices for actions the game that you can [TS]

01:30:27   move you can press your little circle button you can you know you can sing you can fly you can also sit [TS]

01:30:33   and just you know sit next to somebody and hang out. I don't know that. [TS]

01:30:37   So anyway so I get to the snow area and again the way they any time I play a game which is rare to begin with [TS]

01:30:46   and discovery is how they teach you to play the game and I feel like Monument Valley is a great example of this. [TS]

01:30:53   I'm just I really I really enjoy that and so like with the wind [TS]

01:30:57   and you have to stand behind a little pedestal things that was really neat because it was hard enough that it took me a [TS]

01:31:04   second to think about what am I going to do here but it was easy enough that it was pretty quickly obvious. [TS]

01:31:09   Oh tell you idiot you have to stand behind these like stone things. [TS]

01:31:12   Journey is not a puzzle game where you're going to get stuck [TS]

01:31:15   and if you do it like that's why I feel bad like if you get stuck [TS]

01:31:17   and you get frustrated like then you're not you're not like it. [TS]

01:31:21   The game has to meet you at your level [TS]

01:31:23   and journey is at a low enough level where there's not this big expectation of gaming knowledge to get through because [TS]

01:31:27   you don't want to interrupt sort of the flow of the game the point of the game is not like a text adventure like you [TS]

01:31:32   know where you're going to be stuck on a super hard puzzle [TS]

01:31:34   and figure out something really obscure to you know like the Hitchhiker's Guide text adventure like the whole point of [TS]

01:31:38   I game this game is supposed to you're supposed to be up to flow through it [TS]

01:31:42   and if you get hung up on things that have to do with the game even if it's the puzzles in the games that sort of [TS]

01:31:47   interrupting the flight it's not that type of game so I'm glad like that's you're looking for a little bit of challenge [TS]

01:31:52   but I think more of the challenge should be you know emotional investment in your relationship with this other thing in [TS]

01:31:58   the computer and your journey. [TS]

01:32:00   Until like they put it up right in front of the beginning of the game they show your big friggin mountain with a light [TS]

01:32:04   coming out of [TS]

01:32:04   and they've got a title it's pretty clear what you're doing in the game like that so they never had to ask you [TS]

01:32:08   when the game started was it clear to you what you were supposed to be doing in the game. [TS]

01:32:12   Yes with an asterisk at the end it was clear to me that I wanted to step into the light which made me wonder is this [TS]

01:32:18   like a post death journey pardon the pun but well [TS]

01:32:22   but I remember like you know in the beginning of the game you just start the game up like does the title sequence like [TS]

01:32:27   I guess the game is called Journey so you're obviously probably going to be going on a journey. [TS]

01:32:30   But other than that do you know where you were going maybe not why but where I figured I was going towards that way. [TS]

01:32:36   Yes Now right now what I will say though is at the various like checkpoints within a level where you look at a mural [TS]

01:32:44   and the like cut scenes where the exposed more of that tapestry looking thing I totally missed the point of all of that [TS]

01:32:52   and was not paying close attention to either of them. [TS]

01:32:55   That's a shame because they're trying to tell a story I mean that's the thing about well that's what I realized late [TS]

01:33:00   when I had already missed like two thirds if not three quarters of them. [TS]

01:33:04   Well I mean not just the tapestries that you find it likely that the cut scenes between levels where they show more in [TS]

01:33:08   tapestry style I guess that you mentioned earlier that you know they're just in the very beginning like the control on [TS]

01:33:13   the screen or whatever to tell you how to play. [TS]

01:33:15   There's no text in this game and you don't notice unless until to point out you have to [TS]

01:33:19   but there is no text which is great for localization but you're not going to say that the reason they did it [TS]

01:33:23   but it's an awesome like extra bonus pool yeah right nothing to localize. But there's no text in the game. [TS]

01:33:28   Everything is explained through I mean the note you can't type to people you can only do a little thing with your [TS]

01:33:32   little symbols that's not text. [TS]

01:33:34   The cut things don't have subtitles there's no no one speaks at any point of the murals tell the story through pictures [TS]

01:33:39   so do the cut scene so does everything in the entire game until the very end and the great sequence right [TS]

01:33:45   and so the one question was other than can you die or not [TS]

01:33:51   but the question the biggest question I had was Does everybody die. Yes Why.. [TS]

01:33:56   Just like life just like life because everybody dies K.Z. All men are more and that's that's fair. But a great game. [TS]

01:34:04   I mean that's part of that's part of that's part of your journey right. That's kind of you know I mean I did. [TS]

01:34:11   Did you feel like you had failed at that point because I think yes I think that I think that is an intentional natural [TS]

01:34:16   feeling because if you are not spoiled and don't know this captain happens you feel like boy haven't gone astray [TS]

01:34:21   or any advantage by the way did you get through the underground part with your scarf interactive did you get you know [TS]

01:34:26   didn't I guess we got bitten once or twice but I believe it just took a section of the scarf. [TS]

01:34:31   Really Were you trying to hide with your friend with you anywhere you both trying to hide. [TS]

01:34:35   Together we were trying to hide together for a while [TS]

01:34:40   and I think we both made it through although I definitely had more scarf than he did at the end of it [TS]

01:34:45   but it wasn't very clear to me the correct mechanism to hide I just kind of ran away from a little spotlight anything [TS]

01:34:52   in a hope that I was far enough away. [TS]

01:34:54   Yeah I mean like what they try to do with the jump scare and the underground level like the [TS]

01:34:58   when the thing first comes out they want to establish that you know I mean it's like a little kid that why should I be [TS]

01:35:04   scared of the things well because they jump they startled you. [TS]

01:35:06   That's why I was very scared and they seem menacing it's dark it's scary music or whatever [TS]

01:35:10   and the evasion mechanism is basically run away from the scary thing. [TS]

01:35:13   Don't worry there is a system as you go back through and play and you can see that they have they're activated [TS]

01:35:19   and become aggressive under certain you know like whatever [TS]

01:35:22   but like the whole thing is the jump scare a supposed to be like we don't have to explain how this game works do you. [TS]

01:35:27   Scary things are scary avoid scary thing [TS]

01:35:29   and the two things you have in your head is I'm going to journey I have to get to this place. [TS]

01:35:34   Therefore I know which direction I'm traveling in [TS]

01:35:36   but the levels kind of guide you like look I came from here I'm going to their big scary thing is between me [TS]

01:35:41   and there I have to get there without big scary things seeing me so it's sort of a hide and seek that game right. [TS]

01:35:45   It is not rocket science and they're just trying to sort of at a base level let's let you know what you have to do [TS]

01:35:52   and let you understand that you want to do that in a way that does not bring you in contact with the thing that just [TS]

01:35:58   scared you right. [TS]

01:36:00   So eventually I died and then I followed the light and then I made it to the game and then the big reveal happens [TS]

01:36:06   or what I consider to be the big reveal which was a new I don't recall the words that they used you probably do. [TS]

01:36:12   But these are the people that you encountered while you were playing the game and there were like five [TS]

01:36:15   or six of them [TS]

01:36:16   and that was an aha moment in so far as I realized OK that was definitely a real person that I had some modicum of a [TS]

01:36:26   emotional bond with [TS]

01:36:28   but it was also an aha moment in so far as oh that might not have been my one body that I had that I thought I was [TS]

01:36:34   playing with for most of the game that might have been three or four or five [TS]

01:36:37   or six different people that I was interacting with for most of the game companions met along the way by the way [TS]

01:36:42   and when you see a large number of those frequently frequently it's like [TS]

01:36:48   when they first before you sort of team up with somebody chances are good that you caught glimpses of other people who [TS]

01:36:54   you didn't team up with and a lot of the time [TS]

01:36:56   when you see a long list of things is not that it was a different person every single thing is that you encountered [TS]

01:37:02   many people before you to sort of decided to team up or decide [TS]

01:37:05   and that was a thing only way to know for sure is to get looked a little symbols which do vary from game to game in [TS]

01:37:10   person to person. [TS]

01:37:12   Yeah which I realized once I saw that screen and I started to wonder like Have I seen that same symbol or not [TS]

01:37:19   but my memory's so crappy that I couldn't remember with certainty whether [TS]

01:37:23   or not that was the same symbol I had seen on and off for most of the game. [TS]

01:37:28   After you died and the screenwriter whatever to doing the game was over at that point. [TS]

01:37:33   Yes and it was clear that the game was not over what do you think was going on there. I wasn't really clear like. [TS]

01:37:41   So here's the thing. I never had done well in English class or with movies at looking at deep symbolism. [TS]

01:37:47   I'm a very surface level kind of interpreter [TS]

01:37:50   and I knew that it was like the big white guys right now I don't mean that is a racial statement I mean the white the [TS]

01:37:56   people dressed in white clothing. Did they like kind of save mean. [TS]

01:38:00   Shoot me through the tube to like a happy place like this and I don't suppose. [TS]

01:38:06   Not this not deep symbolism here and it's not complicated [TS]

01:38:09   and they don't think they're like you can understand that I think entirely on a surface emotional level [TS]

01:38:14   or whatever like that it's open to interpretation of what's going on there. [TS]

01:38:17   Like I know what I took from it but like how did you put it this way nor who cares like what you think happened. [TS]

01:38:24   How do you feel after the game continued after you died. [TS]

01:38:29   I'm happy for the most part that I didn't actually fail because I knew for several reasons one I didn't want to admit [TS]

01:38:36   to you that I didn't make it to the end too. [TS]

01:38:38   I didn't know I knew I wouldn't have the time to like play it over and try to do better. [TS]

01:38:43   But also I felt a little bit just because I was like man what the hell I thought that I was actually dead. [TS]

01:38:49   And now it's like I'm not which is by and large a good thing. [TS]

01:38:52   What the hell does a bit of events where were you with were you with a companion in the snow now. [TS]

01:38:58   Not a tap not it in the beginning yes but they eventually they eventually collapse before I did. [TS]

01:39:04   But no but you're with them going up the Big Hill just a day. They collapsed before you did. Correct. [TS]

01:39:09   And so when you when you got into the after part where they were still with your no no. [TS]

01:39:14   All right so you go and that's why did you feel and how did you feel as you went through that last part [TS]

01:39:18   and came to the end of the game. You're by yourself at that point. [TS]

01:39:21   Yeah I mean at that point if memory serves it's basically just mashing forward on the analog stick until you get to the [TS]

01:39:27   end. [TS]

01:39:29   I felt like I was probably supposed to be more into what was actually happening at that point [TS]

01:39:36   but it was at this point that I was starting to reflect on what had just happened in the game [TS]

01:39:41   and the other thing I will note is I don't remember if it was before or after death I want to say it was after death [TS]

01:39:48   but there's some point where the screen eventually goes white [TS]

01:39:51   and you have to keep walking forward for like a freak an hour and I was I was really confused whether [TS]

01:39:57   or not the game it Hong if I was doing. [TS]

01:40:00   Right Thing if I'm just an impatient jerk or what the crap you're overthinking the case [TS]

01:40:04   and here are thinking it's all a game [TS]

01:40:06   and I encourage you to play it again in a more mellow environment it is not a lot of blood pressure so much pressure I [TS]

01:40:12   know how much you think highly of it I wanted to make sure I got everything I want. [TS]

01:40:16   Well I know that's the problem with things being hyped up like this [TS]

01:40:19   or whatever I mean if they had issues on her for her to play through as well anyway I get it it's never going to be for [TS]

01:40:26   you like it was for me [TS]

01:40:28   and for a lot of other people it just because like it's like if you see a movie you never heard anything about [TS]

01:40:32   and you love it and then everyone hypes it up for like six weeks [TS]

01:40:35   and you go see it like it's not going to be the same because you've heard all these people talking about it ever [TS]

01:40:38   and had set up your expectations change [TS]

01:40:40   and like versus just being like this is a new game just came out that I let me give it a try [TS]

01:40:45   and being you having your socks knocked off and even if you play this on day one like as I said to make you go play it. [TS]

01:40:51   You only get one chance for a first play through of this game [TS]

01:40:55   and if you have a first play through where you either don't meet anybody or meet people who come [TS]

01:41:00   and go like that's a big risk now because by how the game is about for years [TS]

01:41:03   and like you know all those chances are good that people are going to be sort of coming [TS]

01:41:07   and going versus trying to play to play through it as someone go who's going to stay with you how well they're going to [TS]

01:41:13   do how how much you're going to bond with them over the gaming experience [TS]

01:41:17   and in general how you're going to take the whole thing. [TS]

01:41:22   I can expect this game to hit people the same way it hit me because the way I played it in the environment I played it [TS]

01:41:27   in and my mindset and just the way I take in games like this is very different than people don't play games [TS]

01:41:32   but you were more cerebral definitely playing through this game than I was [TS]

01:41:37   and I think then if you can get yourself to be less cerebral you can have a different experience of the game [TS]

01:41:42   but you're never going to have another first experience of the game so that this was your first experience [TS]

01:41:46   and it was yours. [TS]

01:41:47   Yeah but I will say I very much like the game [TS]

01:41:50   and certainly I was struck by how emotional I got about being friends with my buddy and I and that may sound you know. [TS]

01:42:00   It's if a condescending I don't mean it that way at all. [TS]

01:42:02   Like I was really into hanging out with my buddy [TS]

01:42:04   and I really wanted the two of us as a unit to get through the game together. [TS]

01:42:09   And when he or she eventually collapsed in the snow I was pretty sad about it and I was really happy [TS]

01:42:16   when I saw that what it was what did you say companions that you met along the way or something like that. [TS]

01:42:21   When I saw that knew for a fact that that was a person that made me really happy. I definitely really liked the game. [TS]

01:42:27   I feel like the best analogy I can make is that I feel the same way about this in that I did about the movie Inception [TS]

01:42:36   and if you give me a second to explain I saw the whole I don't like that movie I know I don't like [TS]

01:42:40   but no hold on before you jump all over this coffee reminds me of Starbucks [TS]

01:42:43   and what I mean by that is I really like Inception a lot and we can argue another day as to whether or not I should [TS]

01:42:51   and that's fine but take it as fact that I really like Inception. [TS]

01:42:55   The problem I have with inception was I didn't see it until like a year or so maybe even two years after it came out [TS]

01:43:01   and everyone I knew was like oh my god inception is the best movie ever walks up to the inception of the best movie [TS]

01:43:08   ever You've gotta see it it's so good and I was coming or whatever guys I don't I don't care. [TS]

01:43:13   And so I actually went into an inception kind of wanting to dislike it which I did not do a journey well despite the [TS]

01:43:20   fact that I wanted to throw the Playstation out the window [TS]

01:43:23   but I wanted to journey just kind of wondering what the hype was about [TS]

01:43:27   and with both of them I knew that they were kind of overhyped. [TS]

01:43:31   But with both of them at the end I actually really ended up enjoying them [TS]

01:43:35   and I enjoyed journey enough that if I happened to come across a couple hours of spare time I probably played again [TS]

01:43:41   just to see see it all over and pay a little closer attention to like the murals or tapestries [TS]

01:43:45   or what have you that I would say if you do it again go into it in a lesser evil mindset. [TS]

01:43:49   Go into it more as a sort of motional sensory experience and worry less about the ciphering the plot [TS]

01:43:54   or worry about anything like that because really I mean you've got the whole campaign ship thing like that is [TS]

01:43:59   definitely. [TS]

01:44:00   Big part of this game you got at least fifty percent of the people making this game we're trying to educate the other [TS]

01:44:05   part is sort of the journey aspect of it like that you could get just playing by yourself even if there was no other [TS]

01:44:11   players this is other part of the experience that they're hoping to bring you through. But with the campaign thing. [TS]

01:44:18   Speaking of the mechanics are made out of cared about or picked up like the sitting when you were in the snowy bits [TS]

01:44:25   and you're kind of scarf was freezing and stuff did you realize that when you touch each other you sort of glow [TS]

01:44:31   and light up and that fights off the cold and it sort of urges you to huddle together over that mechanic not clean now. [TS]

01:44:37   No I knew that you glowed when you were near each other but I didn't put two [TS]

01:44:40   and two together in the snow section because that that becomes later [TS]

01:44:44   when you're going uphill in that you're like if you have established I had had it with your body. [TS]

01:44:49   I've now essentially physical closeness of like being a way to ward off the frost which robs you [TS]

01:44:54   or your scar does that eventually laid eats away at your scarf [TS]

01:44:57   and can you know I mean discuss go entirely in the finals no you are right [TS]

01:45:01   but just you know that the whole freezing textures encroaching on your outfit if you stay close to each other you can [TS]

01:45:07   warm each other up and so [TS]

01:45:08   when you're going up that final hill with that established pattern you will be huddled up close to each other because [TS]

01:45:14   that's what you've been doing for the whole snow levels like oh guys really cold we need to huddle together home [TS]

01:45:18   together eventually stops working on that hill that's you know eventually just freeze to death and die [TS]

01:45:24   and that is more heartbreaking [TS]

01:45:25   when you have this established sort of closeness type of thing that has been we've been saving each other thus far [TS]

01:45:33   and now saving each other isn't working and you have got the same thing with you were separate [TS]

01:45:36   when you saw him go down it's like you felt bad about that [TS]

01:45:38   but like it you missed out on that flight small part of the thing [TS]

01:45:41   but it's like yeah I would say you would think this is a game does not reward repeated platers because little surprise [TS]

01:45:50   it has to give you like solutions to puzzles or just the game itself or the plot. [TS]

01:45:55   It's all true now right you know everything's going to happen and yet as I think to fool a test. [TS]

01:46:00   It does have a place through value so I would I would give it a try. [TS]

01:46:05   Maybe not immediately maybe let it stew for a while I would definitely buy the soundtrack because if I have I like [TS]

01:46:10   video game music I like video games on track even if you don't throw a pick one [TS]

01:46:15   or two tracks on the soundtrack thrown into your random i Tunes Next see if you don't mind when they come on [TS]

01:46:20   and here are finally my final question about the game and faithfully proud of me. Did you watch the credits. [TS]

01:46:28   Yes I mean they were on but I was talking to Aaron [TS]

01:46:32   and my sister in law who happened to be over at the time not the right environment. [TS]

01:46:37   Other people talking you know I mean I had sort of kind of paid attention [TS]

01:46:43   but I would not say I read them read them now. [TS]

01:46:45   Yeah I do not do if it does I don't watch the credits in theater mostly because I want to get out of the theater [TS]

01:46:51   and it's not like you have to because a stupid scene is the end of the credits which drives me nuts and credit [TS]

01:46:56   and the credit usually aren't that interesting [TS]

01:46:57   but for video games I always watch the ending credits because videogame credits unless that's just a bunch of words [TS]

01:47:03   going were black but even then I'll see if there's any new and credits in general are not interactive [TS]

01:47:10   but an extension of the game experience. [TS]

01:47:12   So next time you finish turning I mean I encourage you to watch through the entire menu muster because you saw the [TS]

01:47:18   campaigns met along the way [TS]

01:47:19   but if you watch the whole I mean it's if you just like the traditional thing is to show you all the places that you've [TS]

01:47:26   been to make you feel like you've accomplished something are going to time is amazingly good at that to show you all [TS]

01:47:32   the people you've met all the places you've been the effect you've had on the world journey. [TS]

01:47:35   It shows you all the places you've been in reverse order all of them in different environments with other people in the [TS]

01:47:41   environment reminding you of the things that you're doing. [TS]

01:47:44   It's got great music during the credits nicely composed with the text you get to see the names of the handful of people [TS]

01:47:49   who made this amazing game and then at the end you get taken pains and along the way [TS]

01:47:53   and I transitioned into the menu again. Oh yes start a new journey or whatever you know the one thing. [TS]

01:48:00   That I wanted to say that I'd forgotten which occurred to me when you [TS]

01:48:03   when you mentioned the credits is that I noticed in what I had been programmed by the late ninety's to think of as a [TS]

01:48:10   cut scene. [TS]

01:48:12   Like a lot of times [TS]

01:48:13   when bridges were forming out of the like big stars for lack a better way of describing them I realized I could still [TS]

01:48:19   jump in move in see my character jumping in moving like you know the Nintendo sixty four era that we're going to cut [TS]

01:48:24   scene which was not interactive but by the magic of technology. [TS]

01:48:28   Now you can like still move around while that's going on which I was pretty impressed by that I'm sure for you that was [TS]

01:48:33   like completely unremarkable but I was like oh I'll go and press by the larger world and journey. [TS]

01:48:40   I mean the same things happened to me [TS]

01:48:41   when I had tried the N sixty four because I had not played a console since like the Nintendo Super Nintendo things had [TS]

01:48:46   come a long way. [TS]

01:48:48   If you're impressed by the large open world in Journey rest assured that actual open world games are just WAY bigger. [TS]

01:48:54   You know so and so yeah I really did like the game I would play it again if I could find a couple hours to do so [TS]

01:49:01   and I'm I am glad I played it. [TS]

01:49:03   Sorry Marco for boring you to death [TS]

01:49:05   and now the only problem I have is that I need to read basically everything you've ever written on the Internet [TS]

01:49:11   and listen to basically every pod cast you've ever been a part of in order to catch up one short article is like two [TS]

01:49:17   pages long it appeared in the magazine it's on my site you can just read it right there. [TS]

01:49:21   There's a pod cast which is shorter than the one we're doing right now and then and I love them [TS]

01:49:27   and I think that's about it. Just and then the after dark thing with depth which is even shorter. [TS]

01:49:33   So yeah which I'll need to go back to as well. [TS]

01:49:35   Q I'm up it's not that long you know in this time I have run an ALTER TABLE sixty three bugs sort of support e-mails [TS]

01:49:44   and paid my electric bill. You're welcome. [TS]

01:49:48   So the punishment for not playing journey when you when you were able you were all set to play journey for so long [TS]

01:49:54   and just wouldn't do it. So now you had to listen to several of the conversations about another once but twice. [TS]

01:50:00   Actually didn't didn't even listen winter was I guess you couldn't because you know that one's at sea now and K.C. [TS]

01:50:04   See your reward for doing your homework is John telling you to do it again telling you you have to tell test to play [TS]

01:50:12   again but she did and she enjoyed it so there you go making people happy market what are you doing. [TS]

01:50:21   Yes I think the top rated title not suitable for any purpose is pretty darn good. I do like that one. [TS]

01:50:28   Marco you're the want to chase market we need to give your middle course on title casing. [TS]

01:50:33   I would say about to make fun of the person who put one is for spam about their inability to Title Case I look to the [TS]

01:50:38   right author Marco you know what the title cases I can give you command line scriptable turning out to go to hide OK [TS]

01:50:44   stop common type the words in [TS]

01:50:45   and it'll give you you don't just capitalize every word I know there are confusing rules [TS]

01:50:49   but like if you don't know them just run through machine I am aware of that. [TS]

01:50:53   However I'm following precedent that we have always capitalized every word for all of our titles. [TS]

01:50:59   Only because you know no title. [TS]

01:51:01   If you know the one the dives in the titles that we not only not lately usually see lately it's not it's not a [TS]

01:51:06   precedent as the people establish our style guide to be established early mistakes not just because we didn't read well. [TS]

01:51:13   No time like the present to be correct. [TS]

01:51:17   I also just you know just to do like this that we're going to subtly drive you crazy over time. [TS]

01:51:23   You're punishing yourself it's going to be when you go back [TS]

01:51:26   and look at the Instapaper one point of screams out so I go God how did I even ship that these titles to be like this. [TS]

01:51:31   Later in your life you notice who Joe underscore underscore underscore underscore who suggested not suitable for any [TS]

01:51:37   purpose. He didn't capitalize the word for you knows what's up. [TS]

01:51:42   That looks weird to me like why isn't any then lower case doesn't make sense Don't argue just follow the rules. [TS]

01:51:48   Well there are certainly [TS]

01:51:49   but the rules about like you supposed to put the period inside the quotes at the end of the U.K. Versus the U.S. [TS]

01:51:55   I don't think a title casing rules change for you anyway doesn't matter we know what's going to rear end [TS]

01:52:00   and all that you can because he likes them better. [TS]