77: Full-Stack Businessperson

0:00:00Oh my goodness. His sausages are wonderful. If I gave you a playlist of M P three S.

0:00:10and It lasted say half an hour to forty five minutes would you play that instead of that god awful crap that you make

0:00:16everyone listen to every week. Probably not but I would at least be willing to consider it.

0:00:21Her honesty is both annoying and appreciated all at the same.

0:00:25Yeah I mean since chances are not great I'll tell you that but but I would consider it.

0:00:31Fair enough but as everyone in the chat room thanking you don't know the music yet.

0:00:37That's a good point I mean what if it's just like a bunch of Dave Matthews Band like is that really an improvement.

0:00:41I would argue not it it obviously would not be a bunch of Dave Matthews The only reason I would play a bunch of Dave

0:00:47Matthews is if I had absolute control of the live stream which would never happen

0:00:53and B I did it just to troll Marco which I don't think I care enough so I would like to offer my services as unofficial

0:01:03official D.J. or Official unofficial D.J. If you will if you ever find the need arises.

0:01:09I'm actually curious John what Lluvia your playlist.

0:01:13I don't know if I throw in some video game soundtracks some mash ups that I like weird things I would probably do is

0:01:20not going to like play songs that everyone's heard before give us boring.

0:01:24Well that's why I play fish because no one listens to it except me.

0:01:28I will say that I did find out I don't member who is you John that told me.

0:01:34But somebody pointed out to me that the journey soundtrack was available on i Tunes and it was like five

0:01:39or ten bucks and I pretty much insta bought that was me of course.

0:01:43OK I thought of my venue but I wasn't sure and it is excellent.

0:01:46So do you remember the transportation soundtrack was like really snazzy and snappy jazz.

0:01:52Yeah yeah it was actually pretty good. It was pretty good. Somebody eventually like made M P three S.

0:01:57Because was all MITI I believe just in a different. Extension file extension.

0:02:01But really it was just Mitty and somebody took the Middies and like sampled them

0:02:06or recorded I don't know what the correct term is

0:02:08but did something with them to create like a really good sounding M P three S.

0:02:13And at one point or another I had it long since lost it.

0:02:17I'm sure that the community of transfer take Hoon revivalists which is quite large actually

0:02:25and has I mean because if anyone out there is a fan of prints were taken and you don't know about open T.T.D.

0:02:32Let me tell you about open T.D.D.

0:02:34Fans have basically rewritten the entire engine of the game

0:02:37and it runs on everything it runs on Macs Linux Windows some a couple he leave important i Pad here

0:02:43and there over the i Pad ports are terrible but it mainly runs on MAC Windows and Linux and it is so good

0:02:48and they've added features to the game and even proving that like improve the the path finding of the trains

0:02:53and everything they've added different features they have a whole new signals hype and they say was more useful.

0:02:58It's fantastic.

0:03:00Oh man if if you if you ever played transfer take who never even Sim City two thousand

0:03:06and you're into trains at all you're going to love open T.T.D. and It's free.

0:03:10Yeah it's really fantastic in fact I think we've mentioned this on the show at some point or another

0:03:14but transports Akun in Visual Basic one were pretty much how you and I became friends. That's right.

0:03:19Yep the combination of those two that night in utter fear of the outdoors.

0:03:24Yeah that probably could have it doesn't mean we would have found something else to do inside of your computer.

0:03:28We didn't have those to the street the only time I've ever seen it was to warp those were the days.

0:03:34I got English I feel like O S two needs like a guy in wish bell just like file systems and each of us pluses.

0:03:41John's bell some some kind of like dull funk like you know to warp. But goodness what's going on. Any follow up.

0:03:55Yeah I thought when I remember Salva feeling lonely just like laughed off and follow.

0:04:00But I don't I qualify as well though I did it was the beginning of the show I just knew that

0:04:03when I'm going to do show no it's this makes it into the show that that I would want to look at it there.

0:04:09So it's not strictly follow up I'm sorry for tainting the sanctity of your follow up.

0:04:13We're talking about Apple Mail and Mavericks and the G.

0:04:17Mail related bugs and how the public beta program for Yosemite might help catch some potential bugs.

0:04:23Michael sigh I really hope I'm pronouncing that last name correctly.

0:04:28Tweeted or e-mailed one of the other the other alternate theory for the G.

0:04:33Mail bug it was not so much that Apple didn't catch it in Mavericks it's just that it was difficult to figure out how

0:04:39to fix in time for the ship date and they just shipped knowing that there were bugs

0:04:42and knowing they plan to fix them and were working on The Fix long before maverick ship

0:04:46and ship the fix as soon as they got it fixed. Considering there's a second party involved they're getting like G.

0:04:51Mail on the other end over there and maybe a bug that involves Google and also involved Apple.

0:04:58It's plausible theory and we didn't mention

0:05:00and on last show so I thought I just mentioned now I don't think it's worth mentioning so in the context of those who

0:05:06are talking about the G. Mail bug in Maverick's point No And and you know G.

0:05:12Mail various intended and everything

0:05:13and I believe John I believe you would asserted that certainly some people in Google use Apple Mail and there is

0:05:21and there's enough of them to be worth them making sure it works

0:05:23and I said I'd be pretty surprised if there were any significant portion of people who work for Google using an Apple

0:05:29Mail and I asked if anybody knew this they could write in

0:05:34and we heard from a few people who work at Google who said you know universally they all said nobody there uses Apple

0:05:41Mail or you know effectively nobody but they also that they've never seen anyone use it

0:05:45and pretty much everyone uses email because you know the workflow that are built around it

0:05:49and everything it's like Apple Mail's presence in among Google employees is apparently nearly zero which does not

0:05:56surprise me. Makes you wonder what kind of work flows to there like one of the.

0:06:00I was like oh I tried to use Apple Maps. They also that Macs are very prevalent there which you already know.

0:06:03Right so if it ever got Macs and one of the persons like when I came I tried using Apple Mail

0:06:07but it was like not the thing to do.

0:06:09Like everyone was using G M L And I'm wondering if they have some kind of like plugins

0:06:14or urge email labs things like what is it about the web interface that kind of makes it so that Apple Mail isn't viable

0:06:20if you're just doing mail stuff you know fine

0:06:22but I was like What is the is that just like peer pressure that everybody's using mail as it gets maybe integration

0:06:28with Google calendar or something I don't know

0:06:31but anyway yeah I guess they're not motivated to make it work with Apple Mail.

0:06:36But it's interesting to me that there is that.

0:06:39That it's that lease that one person felt like there was you know that it was not even a viable thing to do not just

0:06:45like personal preference

0:06:45but just like once you're in Google you're going to use email because the way it's done right you know it would be

0:06:51difficult for you to use that will melt just a bit and whether that was technical political or both.

0:06:58I think it was kind of less imagination but I'm guessing it's probably some of both.

0:07:03The weird thing about the political angle is like oh you know well it's like dog food like why wouldn't if you're not

0:07:07using your own mail client obviously than your own mouth white socks

0:07:10and you know like you could use your own your own things should be good enough for you to use.

0:07:14But like like I said and what wasn't it wasn't contradicted by any of the e-mails.

0:07:18Macs are all over the place in Google and how is that not a contradiction.

0:07:22You know in terms of like why

0:07:23or why a Chromebook not good enough for everybody I mean I guess Bill doesn't really make a sort of full fledged

0:07:28computer but for developers or whatever but they're there you know arch rival Apple they're using all their hardware

0:07:36and side I mean they're not using the phones I assume

0:07:38but for the laptops that are all mac so makes you wonder if like is Google motivated to make a sort of non Chromebook

0:07:44full fledged laptop I don't know though if it would run.

0:07:47I mean throwing out windows so they're like they're internally conflicted no matter what.

0:07:52Well

0:07:52and there is a whole I mean I think a lot of this is is kind of you know company culture as well like there's a whole

0:07:58lot of people out there. Who use a mac as their computing platform.

0:08:04But aren't all in on Apple's other stuff you know they use Chrome the browser they probably use G.-Mail in in a web

0:08:10window

0:08:10or something of their mail client like there's a whole lot of people out there who function that way just fine

0:08:15and willingly and happily because that's just their preference

0:08:18and I would imagine those people are more likely to want to work for Google than somebody who's all in the whole of

0:08:25Apple stuff.

0:08:25So you know probably among their employees going to self-selecting were like their employees probably just want to use

0:08:31Google stuff in the in its native interface because that's just their preference

0:08:35and it's one of the reasons they work there.

0:08:37But even so you've got chrome as your browser

0:08:38and then you have a bunch of terminal windows in which you run like emacs or something

0:08:41or maybe you have a favorite text but it's and that's like the whole experience

0:08:44but I'm like why do you need Apple hardware Why can't you get by with a chrome book that you know you know how you

0:08:49locally compiling things and go in C. Plus plus is that why you need to have a better C.P.U.

0:08:54Than the Chromebook you just want nicer hardware like you know I'm not that's not much soul searching searching about

0:09:00this because they're all that I Congress going to Apple hardware and then

0:09:03when I use it I mean the all Google services I'm using you know whatever weird version of Text Mate that I've kept left

0:09:08over I'm using the area Macs or whatever so I don't think there's much of an apple in their face miss

0:09:14but they're still using Apple hardware

0:09:16and I have to think that if Google continues this kind of Microsoft like march towards There is no market we don't want

0:09:24there is nothing we can do there is no reason we should rely on everybody like who really really crept up on that they

0:09:30didn't start off that way

0:09:31but now it just seems like if they were Microsoft like is there any business they don't want is there anything having

0:09:36to do with personal computers that they don't want to like well they're not you know they make applications

0:09:42but they don't make their tools well they make a compiler

0:09:44but they don't make it out you are going to make an ID Well they make all the applications there is do you know basic

0:09:49office OK Well now to have a paint you know well they don't make games you look at a flight simulator game consuls like

0:09:56it was like I want to do everything and Google is slowly going. So far Google doesn't want to do P.C.

0:10:02Hardware like the Chromebook is close kind of they're going to supersede P.C.

0:10:06Hardware with something that's not as problematic as a P.C.

0:10:08and Maybe they'll succeed in that someday but I have my eye on Google's megalomania.

0:10:14Certainly the apple that we just discussed last week about the Apple I.B.M.

0:10:17Thing is plenty of things that Apple doesn't want to do.

0:10:19Like it still doesn't really want to touch enterprise a ten foot pole which is why it's having a ten foot pole in

0:10:24I.B.M. Touch it for them. Is there anywhere to go from here other than some something awesome.

0:10:32Well actually before we do have a phone call I hope you have like follow up a draw like you have you CAN you were

0:10:38holding you you had you know you have to get some kind of fall out. Well so the Apple I.B.M.

0:10:44Thing we got some feedback from people who are like you know you're too down an apple about the Enterprise actually do

0:10:49a lot of enterprise and I tried to express that

0:10:51and I showed is that it's not like Apple really ignores it like they do do a lot of things for the enterprise they have

0:10:56come a long way but the question is always where are they willing to commit.

0:11:00Are they willing to go to the lengths that other enterprise companies go to so that you can the feedback we got were

0:11:05one to the people saying Apple is really doing much better in the enterprise they're not nearly as bad as you think

0:11:10they are and the other is are people saying as far as Apple has come they're still bad in reason for reasons X. Y.

0:11:16and Z.

0:11:16So like both of those are true

0:11:18or like it's not they're not bolting a different Apple acing the same outfit is looking at from two to respective

0:11:22wonder they come such a long way and are so much better now than it used to be

0:11:25and the other is that compared to the companies that build themselves around serving the enterprise there Apple is

0:11:30still not willing to do that all the things the enterprise wants out of them and

0:11:35and that's the best that been around forever

0:11:37and the question I guess I show is always what's Apple going to do about that they're going to continue to act this way

0:11:42to kind of turn their nose up at it

0:11:44but do enough to sort of get a little bit of this isn't sort of they feel like they want more of this

0:11:47and I think they feel like they do one more of the business

0:11:50but they don't want to change them they don't want to change their own behavior to get more that businesses want to

0:11:54someone else. Augment their existing infrastructure and support to get more of that.

0:12:00Yes indirectly we are sponsored this week once again by our friend Mal Xander at need need is a very fine retailer

0:12:08and lifestyle magazine for men.

0:12:10And it kind of came out of the biopic podcast and away

0:12:13and so you figure it has to be pretty interesting if it came out of that right.

0:12:17Each month need curious and sells a limited quantity of exclusive products from the world's top men's brands.

0:12:24These collections are presented in the form of a monthly editorial built around a certain theme

0:12:28and are shot by local independent photographers.

0:12:30And if I may say so myself they all look really stylish and awesome beyond clothing which they have a lot of.

0:12:35They also sell coffee literature furniture and lots of other cool stuff. Need is also expanding.

0:12:41Soon they will localized to certain cities around the world the first of which will be London

0:12:46and I'm guessing that London England or the U.K. England. I never know. Great Britain void.

0:12:52I'm pretty sure one of the leaders in England I don't know what or how to refer there as the rest of it

0:12:56but it's an England sorry if I offended the entire U.K.

0:12:59England Great Britain continent sub continent island OK so need is only eight months old

0:13:05but they will already be one of the primary sponsors of the New York Fashion Week.

0:13:09Now I actually know what this is because my wife watches Project Runway do you guys actually know what Fashion Week is

0:13:15it something in New York City where a bunch of fashionable people descend upon New York

0:13:20and make everyone else feel poor.

0:13:22It's a really good idea too to sponsor this if you're a clothing company

0:13:28and he's already doing it because Fashion Week is huge it is like in New York has all these stupid things like they

0:13:34have like internet week and all this crap that they try to boost other industries

0:13:39and make them make make these like events all trying to mimic Fashion Week poorly Fashion Week is the real thing.

0:13:45It's what everyone else is trying to be it's such a huge deal New York need is sponsoring Fashion Week.

0:13:50They'll be bring along small independent brands to show off the company

0:13:53and its aspirations in the midst of the world of high fashion.

0:13:57Another word in their words they want to tell everyone about.

0:14:00Turning up working independently and telling great stories in the traditional world of exclusivity and brands.

0:14:05Anyway going to need addition dot com And that's not the math it's the easy addition need addition dot com Check out

0:14:13their collection and it changes every month. Seriously add this to your R.S.S. Reader.

0:14:18It's one post a month I mean come up if you still use our sets we'll get to that but I still use our set

0:14:24and I have it in my arms as reader. Anyone who places an order with need and was sent from A.T.P.

0:14:29Can send an email afterwards to hello at need addition dot com with the subject line.

0:14:34New York fashion week to commemorate a special occasion.

0:14:38They will then throw in a bunch of extras with those orders before they ship things like magazines field no socks

0:14:43scarves etc and then you'll be put in a list to get twenty five percent off your next order

0:14:48and I've been doing this offer for a couple of weeks now.

0:14:51Eighty people are sinners if you have multiple orders where you've emailed them and gotten a twenty five percent off

0:14:55and that sort of thing.

0:14:56You can stack that so you can get you can collect to them and get fifty percent off an order after that.

0:15:00So just for A.T.P.

0:15:01Listeners they're really nice to us

0:15:04and most of all though the first five orders will receive one of five limited edition.

0:15:09Never to be publicly sold need branded hats. Now I don't have a lot of hair so hats are very useful.

0:15:17Need produced a need Evarts field collaboration hat if it's field is the company that created the original baseball cap

0:15:24apparently these hats really worth about fifty dollars if they were sold at retail

0:15:28but they're not going to be there only There's a five limited edition hats

0:15:33and unless you have a leave you get it for free right.

0:15:36Yeah they will just toss a sense of the first five orders that email them with this email Hello I need additional comma

0:15:42after you hear this with a sort of one New York Fashion Week after you place an order this is a great deal I might do

0:15:48that I might take one of these before the way in a live stream.

0:15:53Anyway thank you thank you very much for NEED going to need addition dot com to check it out.

0:16:00I have a request for that ad read can you put in like Ragtime by on a commute. You know what I'm talking about.

0:16:06See I love I love

0:16:07and need sponsors because I can totally mess up the entire real impetus for all sorts of my own personal crap into it

0:16:14and it doesn't matter because Matt is like a friend of ours so he doesn't really mind

0:16:18and it still works because people keep ordering stuff so it's both a great thing for that matter is doing for us

0:16:24and greeting their listeners are doing for Matt and for us indirectly by buying stuff from his company anyway even

0:16:29when I fumble through the reply that right so I told you I had a piece of follow up that I know that's what it was I

0:16:37was stalling so I could remember John house are you. That's your follow up.

0:16:42Yes I do you're going to talk about Apple I.B.M.

0:16:44Stuff input here dad but no car when he had nothing now for use to go on. Slowly it's terrible for items.

0:16:56Just as like as like a dark cloud over my life

0:16:59and I just feel like it's never going to get done I don't have to end up taking off time from work to get done

0:17:04and they keep changing things and thing though doesn't work

0:17:07and you trying to review anything has to do with the network

0:17:09and like the seeds are coming out so I go this functional is building quite work Yadin

0:17:12and all the stuff I don't mention you tried it doesn't work out like well does it not work it is broken

0:17:17or is not work it's still like months from relays and I can't really write about it

0:17:22and I'm going back to stuff I've already written

0:17:24and changing it because I had this big paragraph complaining about this

0:17:27but then they changed that So it out of the complaint anymore.

0:17:31Like yeah I have to have notes in my things like remember to talk about this

0:17:35and then I have to go back two weeks later

0:17:38and remove that notice oh actually no change so you don't have to making progress.

0:17:42I need to plow bravely forward and just get something written and then go back

0:17:47and change it even though it keeps its data and I don't know that Cheney more things than usual

0:17:52or if I'm writing too early about things that I have complaints about them. It's going slowly depressing.

0:18:00So some I related you had tweeted earlier today that you had something to the order of four

0:18:05or five machines on your desk

0:18:07and any time you did anything you were you were in you were never using the wrong keyboard and mouse

0:18:13and I had suggested in from your snarky reply I assume many had suggested that you should use what is it synergy is

0:18:21that right.

0:18:22Yeah well see other people find you know people don't know

0:18:25and I'll bet you of all people should know that I know it's energy is I was encouraging you to better yourself by using

0:18:30synergy.

0:18:31I know all about the energy I had I don't want to don't I don't need it for this like it's just a temporary situation.

0:18:38I'm not trying to create a set up where I have a system where I can use five computers once I just have to do it at

0:18:45remote desktop is the worst if you can kind of keep it straight if you like for the like laptops

0:18:50and the Modesto Bee You got to keep it straight.

0:18:53Things are physically separated

0:18:54but once you bring Remote Desktop into the mix then it's game over because now like you have the same screen three

0:18:58times because I you know I've got the original screen and then the remote screen

0:19:02and then my regular screen that it's in

0:19:03and then if road test opposite the front door then it gets all your keyboard focus so you're like quicksilver shortcut

0:19:09goes to the remote desktop not to the thing over there but it's just it's madness.

0:19:14Just quitting closing the wrong windows just for hours at a time slowly going mad

0:19:20but Cinergy would fix this for you my friend. And it doesn't take them now it would not and would not.

0:19:27I mean thirty has downsides as well and it's just another layer of stuff it's the same reason I don't use screen

0:19:33or team ox right.

0:19:34Like I know I recognize all the benefits I have experimented with them

0:19:37but you know it's always something like a screen you like I don't want to take you know control I want you to remap

0:19:42though I don't want to have any of my keystrokes

0:19:44and you know how I get the synergy doing weird things with making using a regular computer feel strange things with the

0:19:51Command key is just it's not I'm not going to try to. Plus that's not really action but it's a diversion. Like.

0:20:00I I don't need to be

0:20:01but I should be doing is making for a partisan interviewer not trying to tweak my setup that helps me do the review

0:20:07like I do enough of that of just sitting here and using Yosemite

0:20:09and doing experiments trying to try to figure out how I can accurately write a single sentence I spent like you know

0:20:15forty five minutes hour experimenting with a thing to say what can I say about this.

0:20:20What is the truth of this thing and then it's like well I wrote one sentence tonight and I spent an hour

0:20:24and half an hour. Tired need to go to bed at this rate I'll be done in ten years.

0:20:30So their view is going excellently is what I'm hearing us.

0:20:36Well since I've asked what's going on with overcast I'm fixing bugs basically.

0:20:45Yeah that's about it really I'm fixing up the bugs the sales are going pretty well still obviously it's down

0:20:51substantially from the first few days

0:20:53but it seems to be leveling off now which is nice because now it's now only able to predict roughly what it will be in

0:20:59you know next month and so far I'm very happy with it.

0:21:03Have you cranked back on the initial server build out form whatever you want to call it.

0:21:09I actually haven't and so far I'm keeping all eight of the well heads and the reason why is so as.

0:21:17So before you know I have I have one FI drawing server that hit its entire purpose is to crawl the feeds

0:21:25and it can be maxed out you know it can be like hammered at C.P.

0:21:28Use because it doesn't matter because that is only job

0:21:33and so what I have what I have going at launch I had these eight web servers up front to help you know take web

0:21:39requests

0:21:41and then very quickly after launch my feed server got overwhelmed with just the queue was backing up because so many

0:21:47people were adding more feeds

0:21:48and I was already crawling a lot of people added a lot more than I expected so I started I ran additional crawling

0:21:54processes under nice on the web servers and so in theory what I think this will do and.

0:22:00What it is doing so far is all the Web servers I have now burst capacity so you know when a popular show.

0:22:07Like right now I mean our show is one of the is one of the top shows in overcast

0:22:11or something I think is like twenty thousand people or something to strive to in Africa.

0:22:14So

0:22:15when a new episode of the show is published I send twenty thousand Push Notifications within the span of a few seconds

0:22:21and any of those devices that are connected to the Internet will immediately try to fetch performance in Qwest

0:22:28basically

0:22:29and so you might have you know twenty thousand devices all performing sinks within that within the first few seconds of

0:22:35that request going out and so I need some kind of burst capacity for when that happens.

0:22:40So what I'm doing now is I have servers and so I am keeping the additional crawlers running on ice.

0:22:47So what I think should happen is I'll have that bridge capacity when I need it

0:22:50when a new IP sort of popular comes out and all the rest of it and

0:22:53when that happens all those processes that are nice will be prioritized

0:22:57and will you know move the cue for other things will slow down for a minute or two

0:23:01and then the rest of the time I have all this additional fee capacity so I think I think this is my original plan was

0:23:09to you know that the FI crawling on those observers are going to be temporary

0:23:12and that once everything calmed down I would eliminate you know half of them maybe

0:23:16and then set up a dedicated feed server to crawl more feeds that way

0:23:21but I think we're going to keep it the way it is because it is in the balance of a lot less wasted capacity

0:23:28and we would said in the past that whatever the sum total of the monthly cost for these ten servers is considerably

0:23:35less than what you had last paid for Instapaper Is that correct.

0:23:38Yeah yeah I'd originally said it was like five forty I had to upgrade my backup server

0:23:42and our space on it so now to me more like six hundred

0:23:45but still yes a hundred bucks a month for for a lot of liner instances providing a lot of power a lot of computational

0:23:53power that I don't think is a bad deal at all. Nice. Anyway that's over Gotta go into a very low.

0:24:00Well and I'm very happy and I'm facing a lot of bugs.

0:24:02There still are some annoying ones

0:24:04but I think I actually got to the biggest ones in this update so I'm still working on a paper.

0:24:11I'll submit it probably in a few days.

0:24:12So do you feel like you're working just as hard as you were pre-launch and post-launch

0:24:18or if you kind of settled into a rhythm at this point you're able to breeze.

0:24:22I am able to breeze but it is still a lot of work.

0:24:27Email I'm still looking over the email I have I did I did hit bottom of the first batch.

0:24:33What's interesting is what people are requesting now so I'm still getting about one hundred emails a day

0:24:40and many of them I don't respond to you know I promised that I wasn't

0:24:44and I promised in the feedback form that I will read everything but I won't guarantee a response to everything

0:24:49and I'm keeping that promise so far I am reading everything

0:24:52and not respond to everything because I can't even reading a hundred emails a day takes takes a long time

0:24:59and a lot of them you know don't even need a response I don't even say as much you know.

0:25:02No response necessary and so I took them up on that offer usually.

0:25:07But what's interesting is that is that what people are asking for now is different from what people ask for on day one

0:25:13even even though the main feature set has not changed since then.

0:25:17And getting you know a couple bug reports certainly here

0:25:20and there because there are still some bugs that are affecting a lot of people which I'm very annoyed by

0:25:24and I'm trying to fix as quickly as I can.

0:25:26But like for example Day one had tons of requests for the two because they don't support streaming and video.

0:25:33It also had lots of requests for smaller features and preferences

0:25:37and behavioral preferences people wanted a different way they wanted episode management to be put a vacation option

0:25:43things like that like all sorts of different more granular options

0:25:46or different modes episodes could be in like one of the more calm ones on day on day one which I mentioned before was

0:25:52like a lot of people wanted it to be new but not downloaded and a lot of people want deleted.

0:26:00So just to also show whether they have been played or they were never played.

0:26:05So you know people are people requesting these different states things can be in of course all the management of the

0:26:10interface and the code that would go with that would be a lot.

0:26:13All that was really on day one and what I'm hearing from people now is substantially less of those requests

0:26:20and the requests from getting now are much nicer

0:26:23and more like you know it would be nice if someday maybe you added this not like I can't use a pod cast at a doesn't

0:26:28have this or I don't believe you know you shipped one point to without this

0:26:31but to a lot of the day one stuff was that and so

0:26:34and I think I mean my my theory on this was pretty obvious really you know I think I think day one everyone tried it

0:26:42who was into pod cast that's who who heard about it like there was a big rush of people who tried it

0:26:47and you know probably necessarily didn't want to like it maybe on some level because you nobody wants to change their

0:26:54workflow of their status.

0:26:55And also people who really do find those features like deal killers or you know anything I don't do that

0:27:01or that I do differently from what they want to do. That actually is a deal killer for them.

0:27:04So all of them I heard from on day one and I stopped hearing from them because they stopped looking at the app.

0:27:10So now what I'm hearing from who I'm hearing from other people who are actually using the app for the most part I mean

0:27:15you know there are new people discovering it every day but not nearly in the numbers as the first two days.

0:27:21So what you're getting now are actually on some level I think are actually more important to pay attention to because

0:27:29most of those people who are heard from on day one I'll probably never win them over.

0:27:33It's probably not worth a lot of effort to try to win them over.

0:27:38And there's a lot of people who use the app for whom it could be a little bit better with what might be a small change.

0:27:44And by catering to those people I build goodwill I build fans.

0:27:50I build customers and those people are the ones who will spread the app to their friends

0:27:55and so it's I think it's more important to make a smaller group.

0:28:00More fanatically happy about your app then to try to address the entire world with it.

0:28:06So John tell us about ARM based Macs we talk about this so many past life

0:28:14but I don't I don't know why it's coming up again I guess this is all we got to say.

0:28:17Wrote about it on his Monday note blog and then lets people link that including river

0:28:22and people talking about it again.

0:28:25Yes we'll talk about it again to I feel like we had this exact same discussion I pulled the Zach same numbers last time

0:28:30but I mean you know I don't know I guess I guess we'll talk about it again I don't think it was a very good article

0:28:36because it was it was based on a lot of assumptions about the relative chip pros

0:28:42and cons between our in our intel that are necessarily true or at least partially misinformed

0:28:49or not liking the notes file either I guess. Anyway so here are the stats I put in the file.

0:28:54Probably the same exact that I had last time.

0:28:56Boy should Apple not use Intel C.P.U.'s and its Macs anymore

0:29:00but instead use arm C.P.U.'s presumably of their own design

0:29:05and everyone suggesting that it has their reasons for suggesting it.

0:29:09One of the reason becomes a very often is that if they did that arm C.P. Use are more powerful than X.

0:29:15Eighty six and the second reason is that Apple would be master of its own destiny because Apple really wants to own

0:29:21and control all the important technologies that go into their devices.

0:29:24Witness their design of the A seven and their and their you know deep involvement in the manufacturing process

0:29:30and of course they do all the software as well to make a last minute applications and lovable

0:29:34and originally if you want to go back really far they investigated my understanding is that they investigated for the

0:29:41the i Phone project for an hour before a project can we make a phone

0:29:44and not do a deal with a carrier with a wireless carrier like is it feasible to do it on a wife I can we be our own

0:29:51or that acronym K.C.

0:29:52and The endo something like they look into all that turned out not to be feasible

0:29:57but they all think they were looking and it was like can we do this with.

0:30:00Out being beholden to somebody else and turns out the answer is no.

0:30:03So bomber for them so anyway this is along the same vein on the tech front though in the power thing every time I think

0:30:08about the power thing I think about you know just how far Intel's come in terms of power efficiency so we'll look at

0:30:17here I have stats for the current thirteen inch MacBook Air which is kind of my sort of standard bearer for Apple's

0:30:23middle of the road laptop does not have a gigantic battery it's pretty slim

0:30:26but on the other hand is a full fledged laptop and the performance is actually pretty good.

0:30:30So the current gender change MacBook Air is a fifty four watt our battery

0:30:35and apples as it gets about twelve hours battery life.

0:30:37Now in my own testing

0:30:38when I was doing Mavericks battery testing I found that number can get even bigger if you use it very lightly like you

0:30:43really are just doing like light web browsing and you know that my my battery test was very light

0:30:48and Mavericks it was like automated basically going to bunch of web pages switching tabs reloading web pages going to a

0:30:54text editor typing some random text saving the text document going in I was like that's type of stuff I was doing very

0:30:59light and I was getting you know fifteen hours out of it

0:31:02but they were twelve hours of Apple says the i Pad Air which is my standard bearer for the i O. S.

0:31:07ARM devices got the biggest fastest ARM C.P.U.

0:31:10In it it's got a pretty darn big battery because the i Pad Air is their biggest i Pad It is a I guess the number wrong

0:31:17in here.

0:31:19Thirty two point four one hour battery namecheck thirty two point four what our battery it is a typo

0:31:24and the note an Apple claims is good for ten hours of battery life.

0:31:28They said nine hours of use cellular data so if you do the math on that it ends up that the i Pad Air is about forty

0:31:34percent more energy efficient than the MacBook Air

0:31:38and here's how many watt hours give you how many hours of usage out of it

0:31:42and who knows if Apple's usage things are comparable like one of them.

0:31:47How are they coming up the twelve hour and over the map again what kind of activity they come up with it

0:31:51but the i Pad air tower that I realize it's

0:31:55but still they have better wins by like forty percent better wins by twenty five percent of the include cellular data.

0:32:00But the i Pad Air The name have it out so whatever. So it's like forty percent better energy efficiency.

0:32:06But then you look at you have to have some proxy for OK a twenty percent more energy efficient

0:32:10but how fast is the C.P.U. How does the eighty seven C.P.U. Compared to the C.P.U. and C.P.U.

0:32:15Benchmarking is a pain I just did the French because that's what everybody does whatever.

0:32:19It just this is the ballpark right so the MacBook Air geek bench compared to the i Pad air deep bench the navigator is

0:32:27two hundred thirty percent faster in single core and two hundred fifty percent faster multi-core.

0:32:32So an exchange for forty percent more energy efficiency it gives up two extra formants or two and a half expert form

0:32:40and so that that's a quite a gap to make up so you could say well you know arm processer more energy efficient.

0:32:47They're not more energy efficient when doing the same thing.

0:32:50Can conjecture that Apple switching to ARM is that they could switch ARM C.P.U.

0:32:53Is ignoring the chipset ignoring Thunderbolt and or and all the other technical

0:32:57and intellectual property issues that may prevent them from having this be feasible. Just the C.P.U. Can Apple make.

0:33:03Can Apple take an ARM chip

0:33:06and make it two hundred fifty percent faster while maintaining its forty percent energy efficiency advantage right.

0:33:13Because you know as you make it as as you make the C.P.U. More performant you're going to lose energy efficiency right.

0:33:19It's not like the i Pad Air is forty percent more energy efficient doing the same thing.

0:33:22It's WAY slower it's two times slower at least

0:33:26and this doesn't even get into like the relative comparisons of the embedded G P U's and forget about it.

0:33:31A squeegee be you and an act of pros and again the mac pro who knows what you would do with that.

0:33:36So there are a lot of just unanswered technical performance questions in terms of what would be.

0:33:44Putting aside the being master of your own destiny what would be the advantage for Apple to switch to arm.

0:33:51Technically speaking would you get a Mac.

0:33:53That last longer battery wise would you get a mac that performs at least as well as the existing Macs would you get max.

0:34:00I'm better. These are all unanswered questions we don't know I was saying of the gap right now.

0:34:04It does not make it seem like Apple like it's a gimme for Apple sale Apple could totally make a C.P.U.

0:34:09That is exactly as fast as the current MacBook Air is but is more energy efficient.

0:34:12I don't see that in the numbers I'm not saying it's impossible

0:34:15but nothing Apple has ever done so far has shown that it could do that.

0:34:20And the second aspect of this is evidently whether Broadwell delay is like bridal being delayed into next year which is

0:34:24why Apple had to rev its laptop line to say well OK we'll give you more RAM which is nice by the way give you more RAM

0:34:30and lower the prices because we're not going to have new laptops until we can get them to see abuse

0:34:34and so it's a bummer.

0:34:34I go

0:34:35and see if Apple you know if Apple made its own ARM chips they would have this problem because they wouldn't be reliant

0:34:41on intel and these delays wouldn't affect them because they would be masters of their own destiny.

0:34:47I don't much see that because in the in the race to say can we make an ARM chip that is good

0:34:53and has the same performance for a while as Intel things if you're going to have any shot at that you have to be using

0:35:00the same process size as Intel and the only person who can do the same process as Intel is Intel.

0:35:05So you'd still be relying on Intel the fab your fourteen nanometre ARM chips

0:35:09and if Intel can't get its fourteen on a meter X. Eighty six ships out the door.

0:35:14Chances of it being able to get your arm forty nine amidships out the door before in places like that a second door are

0:35:20very slim you have to get our intel to agree to feather in the first place then you have to get them to agree to give

0:35:24you prayer and then you have to say that the thing that stopping in government in X.

0:35:28Eighty six chips if working on a meter is just like a laziness or something

0:35:31and if only you know only Apple is whipping them along so I will see if Apple's master was on Destiny would have

0:35:36fourteen nanometre arms to be used for its next generation of macro care that have more performance for watt than the

0:35:41Intel ones and just I think was speaking I don't see it now doesn't mean they're not going to do it

0:35:46or they would do it and just make some excuses

0:35:48and eventually catch up because that's kind of an apple demo it's like like with the maps thing well we just can't have

0:35:53Google Maps anymore and our new maps are going to be worse and they could be worse for a long time possibly forever.

0:35:58But we just had to do it. That's always an option.

0:36:00I'm not saying Apple will never do this but on paper it does not look like a compelling change for me

0:36:05and this is even ignoring like the mac pro and all my set X.

0:36:08Eighty six games and the ability to run Windows and all that and even the rim of the I wonder how much that matters.

0:36:15My my feeling is that it probably matters a good amount still

0:36:19and I'm sure it's going down every year with how much that matters

0:36:22but I bet there's still a lot of people who run like the Windows version of Microsoft Office in virtualization at least

0:36:29right.

0:36:30Yeah that's exactly true and actually I recorded an episode of mac power users last night

0:36:36and one of the things we very briefly talked about is what happens if you know Macs go arm in

0:36:40or if they were certainly if they weren't Intel and that would be a showstopper for me or in.

0:36:46Additionally if there was a Intel mac and an arm Mac.

0:36:50What say they were both brand new you know Broadwell comes out but simultaneously there's an ARM based Mac.

0:36:56I would absolutely choose the Intel based mac for work at least because I believe in Windows at work.

0:37:04I mean I don't do use boot camp is boot camp even still a thing. Yeah it's still there.

0:37:09OK so I do it so I don't use boot camp or use whom are fusion but my point is is that I would I pretty much live in V.M.

0:37:15Ware Fusion at work

0:37:16and so for me to have really caused really bad in crummy virtualization would be a showstopper I would have to use one

0:37:24of those Dell behemoths if I didn't have an Intel mac and that's just a terrible life and nobody wants to leave.

0:37:31Yeah I mean I think you know to do an architecture transition.

0:37:36Again I would have to come with major gains and I think you know John everything you said is right

0:37:42and you know looking at what they would lose with with Windows compatibility

0:37:46and the cost of having all developers have to recombine you know as you said last time we talk about this

0:37:52or as I said at least you know going from Power P.C. To intel they use Rosetta to try to help transition along.

0:38:00The old stuff but that also worked primarily because the inputs are for so much faster.

0:38:04There was a huge performance jump on it when they made that transition.

0:38:07And here there probably wouldn't be that same performance jump in fact it might even get slower so it would not be an

0:38:16easy transition if you possible you know they could do it you know it's a different environment now

0:38:21when this isn't as important to developers in the mac app store.

0:38:24You know they're using Apple's Apple's Xcode toolkit and everything so Apple has a ship a cross compiler

0:38:31and make universal Viner's again like they could do it if they wanted to but it would not be a cheap

0:38:37or easy transition to make and so the question is whether it would be worth it.

0:38:41And I've been looking at these numbers and thinking about you know John you're writing about the fab capacity issue

0:38:46and I don't see it really being worth it to say I think they could actually make a pretty darn high performance ARM

0:38:53chip mostly because I like their integration like the fact that they control the compiler they control the language

0:38:59they they control the micro architecture of the chip.

0:39:01You can really get some impressive gains out of that

0:39:04but you still are always in the end faced with the problem of who the hell is going to fab the ship

0:39:07and if the answer is an Intel using their best process before they do it before at the same time as they do their own

0:39:12flagship chips then your answer as well doesn't matter how great your chip is if you have to fab size a generation

0:39:17behind what Intel does.

0:39:19How the hell are you going to compete on price performance with them like it is just a huge advantage to say you're a

0:39:23twenty two nanometers and work fourteen it's like you know like the bring of the X.

0:39:29Eighty six tackling all these crazy instructions like the X.

0:39:31Eighty six tax and then going down you know for it just always keeps going down

0:39:37and down because as the number of transistors in the chip goes up and up

0:39:40and even if you exclude cash which is a huge part of it but even or even if you screw the G.P.U.

0:39:44Like the the percentage of transistors you have to spend then I say six is so small that it's not even a factor like

0:39:50it's a factor you know in terms of elegance and it's just disgusting to think about those things being there

0:39:55and it would be nice if more of them get phased out but at this point it's like I say sixty four is.

0:40:00As it grows you can implement the old like sixteen bit instructions in crazy ass crap is never going to call this slow

0:40:05as you want with a few transistors you might like it it's just it's a tiny blip.

0:40:09It's not the kind of blip you can build a sustainable Frohman's advantage are you know like process

0:40:15and manufacturing costs are such a huge part of this and so in DOS to be a huge part in that I don't know the ins

0:40:20and outs of the details of people been talking about this but like C.B.

0:40:23Was one thing when you've got chipset you've got thunderbolt you've got whatever the current version of P.C.I.

0:40:28Express is and all that stuff and a lot of that stuff is tied up with either patterns

0:40:31or actual intellectual property that involves Intel so I don't think you can get away from Intel unless you know like

0:40:38and like let you do something like that I was devised I was like oh no thunderbolt over here we don't have U.S.P.S.

0:40:43Our own little widget it's got her own port on the side of it and we control everything

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0:44:00Sting and I think they're probably going to be big pretty soon.

0:44:03All right so the other thing that's been going around the Internet over the last week to week

0:44:08and a half maybe two weeks is whether or not anyone can make money in the Iowa SAP store.

0:44:14Mark are you making a funny story.

0:44:18Well I am right now actually

0:44:19and three months of flying for Marco to field I think the the actual full version of that is it is impossible for

0:44:29anyone to make money in the out start besides Marco a face with the name that's as Marco I'd like to rather be able to

0:44:35list.

0:44:36That's true I mean there's there's two problems really that that people face problem number one is getting noticed at

0:44:42all and ever having strong sales.

0:44:45You know so that's like you know my my reputation an existing audience gives me that kind of for free.

0:44:51Not entirely you know close

0:44:53but in Problem number two affect me as much as much as anybody else which is once you found

0:45:00and saturated the number of people who are going to ever buy your app what happens to your sales curve

0:45:08and how do you get more people to buy it who are not finding it or who are choosing not to buy it or who aren't even.

0:45:15Who are you know looking at the category and choosing one your competitors instead.

0:45:20And that's a look at a much harder problem and I don't have any benefits their over anyone else really

0:45:26and it's a hard problem to solve

0:45:28and so you know the the first problem you can you can you can kind of address by doing things like you know like like

0:45:39picking a category where there's less competition but there is still a market that's really hard to find though.

0:45:44You know a lot of times in a competition because it isn't very useful

0:45:48or you know it's a problem that it's very useful to like ten people in the world and you're one of them.

0:45:52So congratulations.

0:45:53It's going be hard to sell it and a lot of things are just like you know it's kind of cool

0:45:58but you know who's going to pay for it.

0:46:00And if the if it isn't that compelling to pay for even if it's kind of cool it's hard to get a lot of sales there.

0:46:09So you know we've seen a lot of these blog posts over the last couple of weeks on the problems in the App Store

0:46:15and how hard it is for developers to make a good living there

0:46:19and a lot of Eliphaz share numbers like actual numbers here's what we made which is unusual you know in most places

0:46:26talking about your salary is taboo. That's a whole other discussion about whether that should be that way.

0:46:33They're actually really can print money episode about that recently that you can find.

0:46:38It's interesting though to see because most of these people are revealing is that they're making a lot less money than

0:46:44people might have assumed and that a lot less money that then is worth continuing to work on it basically.

0:46:50And so you know this is started out by Jared Sinclair and his post about unread which is an R.S.S.

0:46:57Reader and it ends up it's made you know that number is like thirty thousand dollars over five time over a year.

0:47:04Right it's not like that you know I thought it was like forty ish

0:47:07but the point is it was in the thirty to fifty range let's say.

0:47:12Right yeah so you know and so it was you know below his expectations

0:47:16and makes it hard to justify a full time work on it if you know you know if you're a programmer in the United States

0:47:23paying for United States health insurance and everything and rent and or mortgage

0:47:27and everything else like it's pretty expensive to live here and if you're if you're making thirty thousand a year

0:47:34when you have a skill that you could make easily twice that probably more so than the area that you live in working for

0:47:41anybody else. That's kind of hard to justify.

0:47:44So I don't know Casey I mean when you think about as a person I mean people get mad

0:47:49when I talk about this because they anything I say people people say oh well you can't you this doesn't apply to you

0:47:55you can't say that it was work for market like people people are very mad at you when I talk about the so.

0:48:00So OK you are more normal than I am and people tend to like you a lot more so what do you think of this.

0:48:07Right so I think it's a tough thing

0:48:11and there's been a bunch of things that a friend of the show underscore David Smith has posted both in text form in an

0:48:19audible form about this.

0:48:21I think he is a good counterpoint to yours in so far as he is also successful

0:48:28but he does it by way of diversification whereas you do it by way of really dumping all of your time into one app

0:48:35and both of those are perfectly valid ways of going about it.

0:48:39For me I don't think I'm going to ever post this in a blog post or anything but I was looking at fast text numbers

0:48:46and in brief the first check I got for from Apple was on the end of September and twenty ten

0:48:55and it was forty three dollars

0:48:57and I was unbelievably excited about that because I had actually earned some modicum of money on the App Store.

0:49:05I didn't earn a lot in.

0:49:07If we care I could go in the blow by blow of how much I earned

0:49:10but suffice to say it wasn't until sometime during A.T.P.'s run that I finally cracked in to get into profit for a fast

0:49:19text and I was just tearing up all the numbers.

0:49:23And if I added things correctly I am one hundred forty three dollars in the black That counts for all the profit I've

0:49:31made which is about all the all the money I've made which is about six hundred fifty bucks minus five years in the App

0:49:37Store which is about one hundred bucks a pop minus the forty dollars I spent on a pasty express to make the world's

0:49:44worst icon with feet. I like that. Well you know it's attracting D.C.

0:49:51Tickets or travel or the price he paid for the inferior footless I counted replaced. Well I have not.

0:50:00I was my friend Jacob so I actually did not charge me for that icon he did it out of the goodness of his heart because

0:50:07he's awesome and I don't know if he's doing contract work anymore but if you want to get I can talk to him anyway

0:50:13but I don't count how do I tell you a prophet. Well yes and no.

0:50:17Of the four years I've been to see I think work paid for three of them if I'm not mistaken.

0:50:23So you could argue that that that one year would put me heavily in the red but I consider that slightly ancillary

0:50:34and we can get into a whole debate as to whether or not that's reasonable.

0:50:36Let's take as completely unrelated let's assume I've never been a W.D.C.

0:50:42Still over five years because fast text last season launched shortly after I was four came out in.

0:50:52So in the five or so years that it's been out I've earned one hundred forty three dollars.

0:50:57Now I've done nothing to promote it other than occasionally mentioning it here and that's about it.

0:51:04And to be honest especially now it's getting a little old getting a little long in the tooth.

0:51:09I need to find some time to work on it

0:51:13but simply because I know I can't believe it over to ship before your Iowa seven

0:51:17and the really embarrassing thing is that the Iowa state is going to beat me too.

0:51:21Yes I did work on it briefly two weeks ago and I What was it that you had said can't shoot the top layer.

0:51:29Yes that got me halfway there but I'm not quite through yet and because I'm too damn stubborn to use Springs

0:51:35and struts. I still haven't updated it then anyway.

0:51:40But yes over the course of five years having done no real marketing whatsoever I've earned one hundred forty three

0:51:49dollars and I'm happy with that I mean I'm certainly not complaining about it

0:51:54but I certainly wouldn't be leaving my job for one hundred forty three dollars over five years. I mean that's.

0:52:00That's like one nice meal. If by now you see mean Pinera bread every half year to a year if you know what I mean.

0:52:08So it's it's a hard in in Justin Williams has been talking in his snarky way which I love but he's been talking on

0:52:17and off about that you know what business is just hard. Business is hard.

0:52:24And that's that's the thing is that you've got to be a business man before woman before your a developer

0:52:33and a lot of cases and I think Marco you've done pretty well with that by finding a nice Schmich nice whatever.

0:52:40Finding a copy

0:52:42and then finding a Cutty that's not that's not terribly well served up until overcast in the case of overcast finding a

0:52:50way to make it something unique and we'll see over time or you'll see over time whether or not that's sustainable.

0:52:58But I underscore David Smith by comparison has his hands in a lot of different pots and

0:53:05and that's what keeps him profitable and able to be independent

0:53:10and something mention in the chat a moment ago well yeah you know you say you didn't do any real marketing

0:53:15but well you mentioned it on A.T.P. and That's marketing and you know that's a fair point.

0:53:19That's an absolutely fair point but OK let's assume that that's a quote unquote real marketing.

0:53:25I still have only heard one hundred fifty pucks over five years you know so that's real marketing.

0:53:29That means it's even more depressing than we originally thought.

0:53:32So some of it is all sponsored by fast Xed the great you know so I don't know it's I long so much I long so much to be

0:53:43able to go independent and do my own thing and not work for the man and I love my job I truly do.

0:53:49But it would be so neat to be like you or underscore and B be able to to be be my own person if you will

0:53:56and you know it may get air quotes but in the end of the day.

0:54:00I don't really have a terribly stressful job and as long as I show up

0:54:05and do decent work I'm going to maintain that not terribly stressful job and there's a lot to be said for that

0:54:13and I think as always the grass is greener on the other side and I you know I have a I have it pretty easy all told.

0:54:22So so young and foolish to put the show up every day and do good work and keep my job.

0:54:27After after my first child was born lost my job and a way of lots of fun.

0:54:33But Job numbers speak them or three or something.

0:54:36This is four and did you volunteer voluntarily leave all the previous jobs. Thus far yes.

0:54:42So you're a quitter you're going to have what I'm saying is chances are good that you're going to have more jobs in

0:54:48your life and if and I think it's a reasonable chance that some of those transitions will happen not by your choice.

0:54:56It is certainly possible I tend to try to pick a company that from everything I can tell is stable

0:55:05and from that into the best of my ability.

0:55:08I am certainly not the most important person there but I am not the low hanging fruit if you will.

0:55:15But you're right I mean my our the company that I work for it could fold tomorrow and I could be none the wiser.

0:55:22Well if I went on the chance of an episode of quit

0:55:25but like you know the whole the whole thing is like the illusion of stability versus the non-A lose like that the panic

0:55:32that you feel in the stress that you feel about dog under my own thing

0:55:35but that means it's all on me whereas like well now I'm not doing my own thing it's not on me

0:55:39but at least I have security where you really don't have security but it kind of feels like you do.

0:55:43So the reality is that depending on you depending on your personality trait.

0:55:47Bottom line is do you feel more stressed are you more stressed in situation every situation be regardless of whether

0:55:54the situation A and B. Are actually comparable in any way. Like just because you feel safer in a job doesn't mean.

0:56:00It is safer

0:56:00but feeling safer is like ninety percent of the battle anyway like if you if you you know if you have a personality

0:56:05where if you were to go off on your own all you do is stress all the time you know that that wouldn't be a good thing

0:56:11for you even if it was exactly comparable risk wise in reality it just matters how you feel.

0:56:16But like all this stuff on the Web going around about the App Store viability I have to think that it's motivated by

0:56:25like if it's knows there's no point writing about this if there is not if it's on an angle

0:56:30and the angle I see a lot is someone who's not me is to blame for my difficulties and not in a bad way as ever

0:56:40and I think that was like it was it was just on you you're like well I recall in case you think he's not running post

0:56:45complaining about an artist make money at a fast X. Whose fault is that that you know if I say well c'est X.

0:56:50A awesome super dooper app has hundreds not has it been updated religiously to keep up with latest techno it has not

0:56:58that you're a jerk.

0:56:59You know it's not like you're searching for like why can I make money out you know wow you know

0:57:04and make money off as that you know like

0:57:06and that's why you're not writing a blog post about it whereas other people like JARRETT You know they'd say like I

0:57:10made a great app. I love it.

0:57:12It embodies my own ideals I think the interface is great I think it does something useful I really like the way it

0:57:17works I worked hard on it it's bug free have kept it updated to use latest technologies

0:57:22and then it's like why why aren't I successful and you're not going to turn that on yourself.

0:57:29Because I made an awesome map I did a good job

0:57:31but as I look at all the other apps that are out there mine is least as good as them is not better.

0:57:35So you're going to immediately be looking for some reason why you didn't succeed it doesn't have to do with your own

0:57:40personal failings

0:57:41and in most cases not really your fault like you did do a good job on the things you care about like you did make

0:57:47and I see why it is a good at but is bug free don't do something useful

0:57:50but then you get all the things that Mark was talking about. All right well then whose fault is it.

0:57:54Well maybe you wrote an app that has has the potential customer base of ten people they all voted already.

0:58:00Right now maybe maybe your case doesn't match other people's tastes like if you have a beautiful bug free nice

0:58:06interfaced application for like you know counting oranges.

0:58:10How many people in the world need to count oranges may be just a hobby of yours or Trainspotting

0:58:14or sent some other straight like you have so much more to

0:58:17and that's where the end of the business maybe you could be going to maybe it's already crowded so it's over then

0:58:22that's kind of boring too that's where a lot of these things get to is like oh just business is hard or whatever

0:58:26but everyone is looking for something more interesting that because just saying this is hard like that post has to come

0:58:31after everyone else's post comes to be kind of like the you know let me just say the obvious thing to get us back to

0:58:36sanity.

0:58:37The previous ones are like what is what is Apple what is the app is the app store environment getting worse is Apple

0:58:43not doing things that may used to be easier to make money but now it's not as easy

0:58:47and I blame Apple for that because they control the ecosystem

0:58:50and I was there is an angle that because it's like if you want to make an AI with app the App Store is the only game in

0:58:56town. Likewise you want to sell more of those jailbreak stories or something which usually people don't want to do.

0:59:01Apple controls everything and so unless Apple is perfect I made a good app.

0:59:06I think I picked a reasonable category but the App Store is harder to make money in now than it used to be.

0:59:13And whenever I see posts like that I think well yeah like people know about it now like it's not you know getting an

0:59:20Early of the of the of the gold rush is over the Gold Rush didn't end because Apple did something bad the Gold Rush

0:59:25ended because everyone everyone came to California like been there and here now like the gold

0:59:30and the gold's been dug out of the ground.

0:59:32When you're the first app on the App Store

0:59:33and they want everyone buys it because nothing for them to buy you know if you were the first read later app then you

0:59:39get a lot more customers than if you're the seventeen three they are bright that's just the Gold Rush means everyone

0:59:44rushed in and the market was filled and so now of course hard to make money

0:59:47but it kind of like what I kind of go back to is the I see this a lot

0:59:51and for writers complaining I guess developers too like writers developers anybody does anything creative fields in.

1:00:00Element they like don't work for free we all heard that before I think I've done this complained about the same thing

1:00:04on the talk as we don't work for free because it devalues you know the work so when you work for free

1:00:10and I tell somebody that I want to get paid like law to take this guy he works for free

1:00:13and don't do that because you're here making the thing that we do less valuable by being willing to do it for free

1:00:20and that is one hundred percent true if the market is full of people like I will write your application for free

1:00:25or I will write your blog post for free or I will do this logo design for you for free.

1:00:29It makes it harder for you to charge money for any of those services because if the guy doing it for free is just as

1:00:35good or God forbid better than you you you know it's very difficult to charge money.

1:00:41If you're talking to your peers Hey everybody who does whatever everybody who paints paintings everyone who writes

1:00:45articles ever turned up software don't do your thing for free

1:00:48or don't give your thing away because that makes it harder for all of us to make money and that is true

1:00:55but the problem with that is one of the things that you're doing is really fun really.

1:01:01What if it's really fun to make apps but it's really fun to do painting sort of logo design is really fun.

1:01:05What if you can do it in your spare time like while having a regular job out of college students really like to do it

1:01:11and they're really smart and talented and don't really need to have a job.

1:01:15Those are unfortunate facts of life about many endeavors

1:01:17and making apps is kind of fun like working for yourself is also fun all these things that make it attractive to people

1:01:23like Casey and me

1:01:24and you know it's like that makes it attractive to everybody everybody wants to do that everybody wants to lead the

1:01:30good life want to do something cool

1:01:33and all the people who are able to do that something cool because they don't need to have a job

1:01:38or because they're in college or because they're just young and foolish or whatever

1:01:41and like their reward is the fun of it. They take forever or else to make money.

1:01:46That's like I don't know it's like that's not I don't I don't think you can blame anybody in that the people saying

1:01:51that it's harder it is harder but I don't really blame the people doing it for free

1:01:56or for the fun of it because they're getting their own reward out of it and like.

1:02:00That's what I like to say the people who raised all of us are not entitled

1:02:05but like I'm making it seem independent of that thing of saying there is no entitlement to be able to make a good

1:02:12living doing something awesome that you love.

1:02:14Right Think of all the people who are in actual real creative fields like you know people who want to be a singer

1:02:20songwriters or like painters or poets.

1:02:23You couldn't but I wouldn't be great if I could make six figures a year writing poetry.

1:02:28Yes that would be great good luck with that. Right like the more people want to do it the more awesome it seems.

1:02:34Of course the harder it's going to be to do that

1:02:36and writing applications is a much more viable skill in terms of making money than poetry.

1:02:42But it's a continuum and writing applications that you feel like writing

1:02:46when you feel like writing them is farther towards the poetry end of the spectrum than doing what about Casey

1:02:52or I do which is doing something that in a status company needs you to do for money in a business that they've already

1:02:58proven is a viable business. That depressing you know.

1:03:04Do you John at all aspire to be independent and be that an independent consultant

1:03:09or perhaps an independent product guy do is there any part of you that that desires for that.

1:03:15Oh I aspire to be retired now. That's a wonderfully John thirty's of the center of the low.

1:03:23I sparred not to have to work I aspired to be independently wealthy all these are reasons why I will never have these

1:03:28things but you did ask me what I want to put what I want I want to not have to work

1:03:31and who doesn't want to not have to work. Exactly so.

1:03:35So except being that working in some capacity is a fact of life at the age in which we all are.

1:03:42Would you eat in a perfect world do you think you would prefer to be independent

1:03:45or do you think you would be you would prefer to be working for the man and have that either perceived

1:03:51or perhaps actual stability.

1:03:53Ron Sterling whatever else does which as you kind of like you do the thing that causes the least pain.

1:04:00I mean essentially So like so for me I would be incredibly stressed out if I was in any of any of these situations

1:04:07indie developers are in only men just it just is not compatible with my personality right so the only way.

1:04:14Like it's very attractive the only way I could do it is if is if I could say well I don't have to worry about money.

1:04:20So like that's what that's the thing of it is like if you just dumped a bucket of money I mean so here you go you never

1:04:25had to worry about money and what I would end up doing would look a lot like what an indie developer is doing

1:04:29but the only reason to be able to do it is because I would have no pressure to be successful.

1:04:34Like I could do whatever the hell I wanted and it doesn't matter to Caesar fails

1:04:38and that's the only way I could do that without like stressing myself to death.

1:04:41Either you find of the things to stress about not like you know like this is like the remaining I guess I'm probably

1:04:48stressed about health and stuff about my kids and all those stuff

1:04:52but you know there's always something like in terms of work the only thing I would do the only way I would ever do like

1:04:58the indie lifestyle is if I didn't count like of it didn't matter where I succeeded

1:05:02or failed so I because I just wouldn't be kind of like that Marco leaves well or I needed him to developers were like

1:05:09or even if your livelihood depends on you being successful by by doing something that you want to do with a skill that

1:05:19you have there be writing an application or even like writing a novel or running your own website

1:05:25or anything like that where it's just you.

1:05:26Nobody else knows of course like there's the entre entrepreneurial spirit I did not have that because who appears to be

1:05:33too much stress and I would be miserable

1:05:34and so I have chosen a life that avoids that stress by saying someone else worry about that I will develop my skills

1:05:41become a valuable worker or someone else to pay and that to me feels more secure

1:05:46and I don't know what number a job I'm on like six seven something like that like I I don't like that experience either

1:05:51having to go from job to job.

1:05:52But the gaps are longer and in between I feel like I have more stability

1:05:57and I would know things about which is why neither one of us to.

1:06:00This Point in case you are Marco and Marco is Marco because he has been I think you are not willing to do.

1:06:06Well hold on though.

1:06:08There's a big asterisk here though what a lot of people don't know

1:06:12or have forgotten is that I didn't take in the development full time until after it was successful.

1:06:18Yes and that's true but I thought about this on and off a fair bit.

1:06:24You did answer a Craigslist ad for a job posting that had for a company of one employee which is something that I can't

1:06:34speak for John

1:06:35but there's no frickin way I would ever do that because at that point all of the stability I'm seeking it's not there

1:06:41because just one guy how could one guy possibly do anything right.

1:06:45Many of us he was young though like I am I do that about as well.

1:06:48No that was a concern that was definitely concerned because I you know because of how expensive New York is to live in

1:06:54I was concerned that well if this company goes under and I thought getting paid like it takes like one

1:06:58and a half months for me to have no savings left and that's it.

1:07:02So I was concerned

1:07:03but I mean the main reason I did that was not because I was some like you know forward thinking maverick

1:07:09or something that was going to only had two offers that were at all even reasonable

1:07:15and I really didn't want to be either one like the other one would be miserable and I knew that

1:07:19and David made Let me we're going to mak. So that was it like that was that was a factor that into it.

1:07:26Right in that all of that makes sense with the Think of it is is that you took what to John

1:07:30or I I shouldn't speak for John

1:07:31but what to me what it was a tremendously risky offer even though in a lot of ways it was better it was still riskier

1:07:39in I.M.C.

1:07:40So risk adverse that I really admire the fact that you took that job offer at David Hill which led to all I would argue

1:07:49with led to all of these other things

1:07:51and I if if I was in the same position I would have gone to whatever the financial services firm whatever it was you

1:07:57were looking at or that you that you were also flirting with. That's right.

1:08:00Would be and I would be freaking miserable right now.

1:08:02OK I would have taken a job that I had my first job out of school was like in a five person startup it was like the dot

1:08:07com days like one nine hundred ninety seven so that's what you did and if your first job

1:08:12and you don't have any responsibilities

1:08:14and you figure you know like I did take that job it's just that my company didn't turn out to become a lawyer like like

1:08:21you know you know I mean like this is like a drug like the thing about Marco saying well I didn't leave my job until I

1:08:26was making good money with Instapaper I guess that's the only way to do it.

1:08:29But even at that point I would be saying well you know I did this app in my spare time it's popular people like it I'm

1:08:37making good money off of it.

1:08:39Now I can quit my job

1:08:40and I would never get to that lead point is I would say you can't quit your job because you know you're making money of

1:08:44an apple or a next year and the year after that and the year after that

1:08:47and you have to have some confidence like this is the thing that I can do that I can sustain this that I'm going to

1:08:52have to run a second happen a third app and I had to find ways to make money you know whatever

1:08:55and I would never have confidence that I could do them what I would feel like I was doing it if I take time off.

1:08:59I'm I'm derailing from like a career path elsewhere and if I go off

1:09:03and Instapaper goes for a few years now it kind of fizzled out

1:09:05and like oh now what do I do I gotta go back into the job market

1:09:09and I would be afraid that I can't get back into the job training how that's that is not really a rational fear because

1:09:14if you wrote into the paper and it said Phil after for years

1:09:17but did really well in between you would be no problem for you finding a job doing like I was contracting around it

1:09:21like it's you wouldn't actually be a problem

1:09:24but I mean I was looking at the App Store at the time zone one twenty seven there was no answer and then like that

1:09:29but that's the kind of feeling that like even if you are doing a side project

1:09:33and even the side projects become successful

1:09:36and lucrative the truly you know sort of person who is afraid about his financial security like I am

1:09:42and probably Casey is would be like oh that's fine you know

1:09:46but you can't quit your job because what you can do next year or the year after that for ten years now

1:09:49or fifteen years or twenty years from now

1:09:51or do you think this is a sustainable thing you can do in your entire career

1:09:55or do you think this is something that might go well for a couple years and you have to get a real job again and.

1:10:00When if you had to get a real job again anyway wanted to keep a real job you have now because it'll be harder to get.

1:10:04You know that's the that's the that's the kind of little voice in the back of my head that's preventing me from ever

1:10:09doing it ever ever doing anything independent.

1:10:12Well

1:10:13but you know the trick there really is quit you know that the flaw in that thinking is in assuming that jobs are stable

1:10:21and the reality is like they're they're not at all like Yeah I've made the same point before

1:10:26and I've been through seven jobs

1:10:27and I'm just saying like people do essentially what makes them feel comfortable within the bounds of their values

1:10:33or whatever and within the bounds of my values having a regular salaried job makes the rest of my life less stressful.

1:10:41As you get closer to retirement maybe that changes just like well you know maybe I go independent now because it's not

1:10:46like I have twenty years of career ahead of me anyway so if I end up doing something outside of my job

1:10:50or because they were successful I can jump ship

1:10:52and do that because after a few years then I'm actually really I'm going to retire with all the money I saved from my

1:10:57salary job during those years anyway so I think all these in developers talking to each other on these blogs

1:11:03and amongst each other is just kind of a way of each person coming to terms with their own sort of values like it takes

1:11:11a certain amount of guts to leap into that lifestyle.

1:11:13And it takes a certain sort of temperament

1:11:16and mindset to keep at it like underscore definitely has the mindset he has the mindset to jump into it

1:11:21and he has the head for keeping doing and he's going to do what it takes

1:11:24and he's like you know that the full spectrum kind of business thing

1:11:28and you do Margot for those that you know like you may like set one aspect more than another

1:11:33but you realize there is a spectrum of things that you have to do with the business side the marketing side choosing

1:11:37what you're going to do the technical side and you have your favorites and I'll be like all that

1:11:41but you realize it's sort of a you know it's sort of like a full stack web developer you have to be forced out of

1:11:46business person

1:11:47and you have to be able to tolerate the lifestyle that comes that obviously success makes it more tolerable

1:11:52but some people jump into it liking only want to aspect of it

1:11:56and realize that all that other stuff is just necessary like and that's.

1:12:00A problem of the gold rush is you can jump into it just being into like the one aspect of it

1:12:03and just like I really like development and I made an app

1:12:05and it's one of the only three of its kind in the App Store and I'm making money for three years

1:12:10and then all the sudden all these competitors come in it becomes a more competitive market space

1:12:13and you're like well I really don't like doing any of the parts except for the cool part where you write the app

1:12:18and if I don't do those things I can't really compete and store you've changed man cycle there.

1:12:25Maybe you just weren't cut out for that just like the environment changed and your the things that you like to do

1:12:32and don't like to do no longer make so they are no longer fit for success in this environment right

1:12:38and so as the environment changes the things that it's like for success change as well

1:12:42and I don't like we all have complaints about the App Store when Apple does know they're all the German complaints

1:12:47but most of this sort of talking about the App Store I think has to do with people coming to terms with their own

1:12:53tolerance for what the current app store environment is like

1:12:56and then because some people like well I had to stop being independent I had a job

1:13:00or other people are going to stick it out no matter what

1:13:02and like what you don't hear about only things like well here's my sales numbers

1:13:05but like Does your spouse work during that time are you still living with the parents.

1:13:09Are you independently wealthy in sort of the matter what happens here anyway because you have a trust fund like you

1:13:15never know what they're actually do you live in Kansas where your rent is really low

1:13:18or like you never know what the actual situation is like how do you live how do you live on that little money are you

1:13:23going to stick it out you're not going to those are more like personal decisions that have to do with your current

1:13:27living situation and your tolerance for risk and stress

1:13:31and that I think is the bulk of this question which is a good discussion to have.

1:13:35The tiny sliver of the discussion is are there things that Apple is doing or not doing that make it better

1:13:41or worse for everybody or better or worse for a particular type of developer

1:13:45and I think the I think the takeaway from this is like not so much what is Apple doing to the App Store that makes it a

1:13:52more hostile or friendly environment for developers but what kind of people are they selecting for

1:13:58and obviously the people having sufficient thank you.

1:14:00That's why I think for me that's bad because I'm awesome which is good you should think that.

1:14:03But the coin Apple I'd be thinking Oh yeah we want to select those apps.

1:14:09When Apple design awards but not as much as you might think like we just need enough to have Apple design awards

1:14:15but in reality we're also kind of OK with being in the store even though you've never been to an Apple design award

1:14:22right.

1:14:23And so like what the kind of store that we wish it was all filled with beautiful handcrafted art has no applications

1:14:29made by passion people in detail like you can't make a full story of that

1:14:34or if you can make it about the store that Apple wants.

1:14:37You do need like you need a and their I guess I mean

1:14:41and even in things like talk about which are great applications that's obviously that's like a full fledged business

1:14:46like two people working out of a garage.

1:14:48Even if I may have started that way and made maybe even need Angry Birds which again started to people

1:14:52and becomes this big thing.

1:14:53So but I think it was an interesting discussion I enjoyed spectating it from the sidelines

1:14:59but I don't think there's any one clear like Mission or like sign we can all hold over ahead to say do X.

1:15:06Now or else it's just more like this is life.

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1:18:13Anyway thank you very much to fracture who print your photo

1:18:16and good color directly on glass fracture Me dot com So we should also point out with regard to people opening a kimono

1:18:25or whatever the phrase is groceries Well sorry.

1:18:28Revealing their numbers which also OK sharing their number

1:18:32or whatever anyway the point is somebody has each Chad I don't know who exactly that is

1:18:39but Jesse Chad put put up a post which will put in the show notes about what it's like for game developers because the

1:18:48assumption is that games game developers make all the money in the App Store

1:18:51and as it turns out this person who has a day job at Twitter which allows him I'm assuming it's a him allows him to

1:19:00make these things in his spare time and not have to worry about making a living off of it.

1:19:04He wrote three or four games some of which looked really nice.

1:19:08I've not played any of them but but nevertheless he wrote a few games and for three games

1:19:14and even some of which he spent a lot of time trying to market.

1:19:18He basically ended up a little bit in the red because of the marketing he paid for in order to try to make some money

1:19:27on these games. So even for game developers all is not rosy in the App Store anymore.

1:19:33Well you know even four because what's more fun than writing a cool i OS application where I think I was like a

1:19:41reasonable yardstick to say how much fun is it to do this thing and then how many people can do it at all.

1:19:48All that all that has a good a good a good number in the how many people can do it at all because only certain people

1:19:54have the desire or talent to learn all the crap you have to learn to be a programmer right.

1:20:00Just aren't into it like that's great that's good for us right it helps us make more money because most people don't

1:20:04want to learn this crap. But game development of all the kinds of of all the kind of programs you're going to write.

1:20:11Writing a game like that if you talk to any programmer a lot of our first program experiences I wanted to write a game

1:20:16because people who like the program maybe also like puter games like Ike I would like to write one of those

1:20:21and even you know end up as a game programmer how many of us I know certainly my first programs I ever wrote for game

1:20:25programs and I certainly didn't have a game per game Bramley is fun so it's fun

1:20:30and it's not looking good for what are my chances of making a lot of money doing it.

1:20:35In fact it starts to become more like what are my chances of like making a hit movie or a bestselling novel.

1:20:41Games are kind of like that it is a creative field you do need all sorts of skills you don't have a new technical field

1:20:46and you need to build on top of that we're just like oh now it's really hard to find this one

1:20:50or two people who can do this right

1:20:52and also it's a kind of a hit driven culture where you you have to have the right game at the right time

1:20:57and boy that's tough I would not be surprised to see that it is much harder to make a living selling games

1:21:04and the App Store than it is selling a To Do List application or a pocket application or anything else.

1:21:09Yes games are a tough market because there are there is infinite competition it's just there's there's there are so

1:21:16many games and games are also competing for attention with other things that you do to kill some time sometimes

1:21:24and have some fun sometimes that includes things like social networking and movies and music

1:21:30and oh no innocent music upset me anymore but you know other people you know that watch movies

1:21:35and you know browse Twitter and Facebook and post stuff and like all of that is competing for time

1:21:41and attention with games

1:21:43and so the end you know games have these immense price pressures of small side plus they have the problem of like you

1:21:50know if you make if you make an R.S.S.

1:21:52Reader you can ship a one point oh that is very good it didn't take very long to make

1:21:57and you can add to it over time games. Don't really work that way.

1:22:01Not most of the time you know usually with a game you pretty much have to do all of that up front before you know

1:22:07whether anybody will buy it

1:22:08and so it's just a really tough market of us to license I P And then you can do episodic content because you have a

1:22:13known property.

1:22:15You know like it's just much more like games are almost nothing like the application market almost everything like the

1:22:21market for all their entertainment whether it be television shows or movies or music or anything like that.

1:22:27There's a technical aspect to it

1:22:29and there's all sorts of details that you have to know that's just the kind of like adds a degree of difficulty to what

1:22:33is basically.

1:22:34Can you make a good game can you even think of a good game that's fun and then can you implement that well

1:22:40and then can you you know put it out into it

1:22:43and extremely crowded market a way that people even see it really hard to do because it's like there's no utility value

1:22:50like a podcast Apple like this helps me do a thing I like to do. It's like they're insane.

1:22:55Well I was like a punk that helps you sort of play do something you want to do which is listen to podcasts.

1:23:02I'm trying to think of a game equivalent I don't know if there is one.

1:23:04Do you manage your games I don't know

1:23:06but the games are just like the thing you do that's fun it's like podcasts are the things you do that's fun

1:23:12and games do have a few advantages over other app types you know one of them being for example that they don't really

1:23:21compete directly as much as you might think in the way that like you know people usually only use like one R.S.S.

1:23:28Reader at a time you know and they might only ever buy one or two R.S.S. Readers.

1:23:33Games are consumables aren't exactly like games like you download you play it for a little while

1:23:38and you move on you buy more games and so it's not like it's easier for multiple games to reach the same customer.

1:23:45Whereas if you're in a category of competing similar apps chances are most people are going to pick one of those.

1:23:51I like e-mail apps like people aren't switching to small group of nerds even looking for alternate apps most people

1:23:56have a name a lot they're going to stick with it or whatever. But game games Arkansas.

1:24:00That's actually a better fit for the App Store in that respect I guess just like what I do for for upgrade

1:24:04but you don't just make another game or you make game version two and you know make it a sequel

1:24:09and it's a separate app because everyone like no one has a problem with that. Well somebody does but you know.

1:24:14Yeah but it's the same thing.

1:24:15Like well then how do you know it's just every last me game

1:24:19and making a good game is really hard because it's you know just not I think oh it's not really U.I.

1:24:23You know you might actually do some your I

1:24:24but it is really hard to make good games I think though to end this on a positive note.

1:24:31You know when when the post first came out like two weeks ago whenever whenever Jared started it

1:24:37when these first came out it looked pretty grim for the first few days in the last few days I've seen a lot of posts

1:24:45from people who are making it work

1:24:47and they're inspirational in a way you know their their motivational least wear it you can make this work

1:24:56but you have to both do it intelligently in a way that will succeed

1:25:01and have reasonable expectations on how much you're going to make and you know base your decisions on that.

1:25:07So for instance you know I John

1:25:10and John you were saying earlier like a lot of people won't be out of Alberta therefore there are a lot of developers

1:25:14and a lot of people doing it for very little money because a lot of people do it on the side.

1:25:18There's nothing wrong with that. That's how I started.

1:25:21Casey your site active Elop or John you would be if you could write apps in perl this start like

1:25:28and that's a lot of people never take a full time that's what they always they always do part time side project.

1:25:35Mostly a hobby that my bringing a little a little money here and there and everything wrong with that.

1:25:40You should probably start with that if you're interested in doing this at all.

1:25:45Don't quit your job and have this romantic notion of say going to coffee shop and running apps all day

1:25:49and collecting a bunch of money like it's harder than that

1:25:52and if you take longer than that before you reach that point like in the past year

1:25:57but I've been working on overcast it really. Has it been full time I've had this show and I've had my blog.

1:26:04Those both bring in money.

1:26:06They both take time and work

1:26:08and so I had I didn't have zero income for the last year I had income from those two things I don't think I would have

1:26:14done overcast if I had zero income for a year like that.

1:26:19I think I ought to try to find some way of having money come in every month

1:26:23and you know we all start from a very small amount like you look at apps today.

1:26:28It's similar to like putting Ad Sense on a blog in two thousand

1:26:32and six right like I had some time ago in two thousand and six and I was extremely happy.

1:26:37You know I was getting like fast techno bars at most you know I think

1:26:41and Google had like a minimum where they would even send you a check until you had a lease of the of the hundred bucks.

1:26:47It was like fifty or one hundred bucks

1:26:48and I only hit that twice in the entire time I ran ad so I made a total of like two hundred bucks maybe in like five

1:26:55years.

1:26:56You were as on my blog it was it was miserable

1:26:59and I was working on that frequently I was writing like probably once a week at least.

1:27:04The problem is like the amount of effort you put into something does not correlate directly to how much other people

1:27:11are willing to pay for it

1:27:13and so you have to have reasonable expectations of you know no matter how much effort you put into an app of type X.

1:27:21Whatever it is you want to make.

1:27:23You're probably not going to earn more then you know a few thousand bucks in the best case scenario rather than bemoan

1:27:31that and complain and say it's Apple's fathers you know there are things Apple can do to improve

1:27:36but this is mostly not Apple's problem.

1:27:38I think if you look at like what something like underscore David Smith is doing he makes many apps.

1:27:43He tries things all the time he said

1:27:45and he took on one of the shows recently I think he's made a couple hundred apps

1:27:50and they aren't all still in existence in the store but he like created something like a couple hundred apps

1:27:56and you know he sees what works he doesn't put a ton of time into Version want to see.

1:28:00Now that he sees what works

1:28:02and in the ones that work he puts the time in that that they earn basically from their sales like proportionally like

1:28:08if something sells well I'll give it the attention it you know more attention to succeed more.

1:28:12And if something doesn't sell that well he's going to you know he just continues it and moves on.

1:28:17That's a really smart approach it's a very pragmatic approach to very effective approach

1:28:22and it's very realistic of like what the store actually is.

1:28:25I saw another post from a guy who said Often I'll turn it on in the shadows I'm sorry I don't member of the names

1:28:31offhand but I'm sort of a post from a guy who said like he develops apps on the side as well as most of his income

1:28:38but he lives a really inexpensive lifestyle and he can like go skiing with his family and be present for his kids

1:28:43and he just you know lower expectations and lowers his expenses and that's and he can do what he wants. That's great.

1:28:51Like if you go into it with realistic Titian's you can succeed but you have to you have to know what the market is

1:28:59and know what you're likely to get out of it and

1:29:02and I saw also a Justin Williams had a post saying that he doesn't think you could spend more than one hundred days

1:29:07building version one point oh because that way you know you get it out there quickly

1:29:11and if it's going to be a flop you can move on quickly if it's going to be a hit.

1:29:14Then you can know that you can choose how much you invest in it in the future. That again great advice.

1:29:20This is all about.

1:29:21I know I just violated all this with overcast but you know keep in mind I was like that was not full time work.

1:29:27It's all about limiting your risk and lowering expectations

1:29:34and then adapting to the conditions that actually happen once you put it out there.

1:29:38There was also a man with I forget the name what's what's the guy who wrote the four part experiment who had an app

1:29:43and he made a friend I made a purchase an app store experiment Stuart Hall. All right now I know.

1:29:48OK so it's Stuart Hall and when the show notes it's called an avatar experiment there's like five or so parts

1:29:55and it's really good. It's a really good read so he started out he made he made an app called. Seven minute workout.

1:30:01It does something relatively simple.

1:30:03But whether there is a market for it but it's a relatively simple app and he started out with it being a pain app

1:30:10and then it went in and purchased a free app and he's trying all these additional things

1:30:15and he's showing the results he's showing all the actual numbers the whole time of like you know here's like every

1:30:19setting like every six months or so he posts a new thing using here that I've done the last six months.

1:30:23Here's the results.

1:30:24It is had and everything this is the way to do the app store you need you take an approach like this

1:30:30when a person underscore David Smith's where he makes a lot of small apps first then decide what to work on you know

1:30:35what to give more time to afterwards. That is how you succeed.

1:30:39I think this blog discussion as it spread out from our circle we start to get into things that are different because in

1:30:44our circle this is the people who want to sort of live the life where you want to make an application that you think is

1:30:49cool that does something you're interested in and you want to make it the way you want to make it

1:30:54and then you hope people pay for that and that is kind of the central core of our little circle of people. Right right.

1:30:58And as this discussion has spread out you start getting into the people

1:31:02and I think underscores at the fringes of our circle because he also has kind of the same values of us

1:31:05but a lot of the people closer into this central part of the Indian life that would say yeah

1:31:11but I want to make one hundred apps because I probably wouldn't be into a lot of those apps or whatever

1:31:15and Mike underscore

1:31:16and like there's a person Stewart already forgot his name Stewart one of the things that they're into is the the the

1:31:25business part of it the game part of figuring out what do I do to my business to be like I'm turning dials here some of

1:31:31those dollars have to do with writing COBRA the dials have to do with things like pricing or what job should I make

1:31:36or wish that you know that's the thing that they're into

1:31:38and as you go farther rather than sort of you find some guy was making like an I.R.S.

1:31:42Application that helps the reception desk at a dental office and he's making a living doing that

1:31:46but he's so far outside our circle he never seen any of these blog posts right.

1:31:49But he's happily making a living doing that you know

1:31:51but I don't want to make a dental app it's not interesting to me at the cost of me about as fun anymore you know if you

1:31:56have to move away from the center of exactly what I want.

1:32:00When I want I want to do an awesome job and I want to get paid like Yeah everybody wants that

1:32:04and if you're if your skills and interests and what you do happens to coincide with a way to make money that's great

1:32:09but as you spread out people have different interests maybe someone is super into making you know applications for a

1:32:14dentist office right. And that's what he wants to do.

1:32:17Maybe he wouldn't be in our circles

1:32:19or maybe he's just like well I'll do this because this makes money like it's the desire

1:32:24or the center of the thing is like this sort of selfishness i or to just be happy doing what you want to do

1:32:29and be successful

1:32:30and as you tell people actually you have to be farther away from the thing you're like actually you have to be more

1:32:34like underscore because as I put those not fundamental it's obviously fun Berners course he's doing it right he's

1:32:39actually interested in that he said but it's not fun for me what I want to make is that whatever app

1:32:42and I want to make games that's all I want to make and it's like well you know good luck Mike.

1:32:48It's not everyone can do exactly what they want to do some people are willing to get off of like America three seven

1:32:55record score on the show is that like would you prefer just make one beautiful application that you really into

1:33:00or do you actually like this part of it where you try to make lots of like is that actually interesting to you

1:33:04and I think like it he's always blogging about an area it seems like that aspect of it is interesting to him

1:33:08and just he's lucky in that that interest him and he's good at it and it matches with the skill set

1:33:14and that allows him to be successful

1:33:16and all these people who are having small success they would do what they want to do

1:33:19when they were doing it the best they could to just turns out that that is not a formula for making money at this

1:33:26particular time and there are many things they can do to change their behavior to make more money

1:33:30but the question for them is do those changes make me less happy and is it worth it for me

1:33:36or is there something else I could do that's radically different like say get it do I US contracting

1:33:41or just get a regular job or you know get a job in totally unrelated field

1:33:45and continue to do this on the side that would give me an overall happier life again it's back to like you know

1:33:50centrally trying to do what's going to make you the happiest

1:33:52and picking an arbitrary goal like I want to be successful in the developer if that's not actually going to make you

1:33:59happy because. What it takes to be an individual or you should do something else you know.

1:34:04So in summary despite what we thought the forecast isn't as overcast as we initially believed.

1:34:17Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week need top Brewer and fracture and we will see you next week.

1:34:28Now this show is over they didn't even mean to be here.

1:34:33It was accidental accidental just because it was that it was accidental. Thank you for today.

1:34:57It says to that list

1:35:04and that it's not a long time workshopping that while we're talking while NOT a while since I've had an extremely

1:35:33cheesy joked in the show it's been like two weeks. How is your show about doing is it up.

1:35:40Yeah actually somebody whose name I don't have in front of me. No not the Robbie Mick Kenny McKinney I don't know.

1:35:49Made a really good poll request which I have a couple of minor quibbles with so I didn't.

1:35:56I told him call it like I see it anyway.

1:36:00I'm assuming this is a he made upon request so it will periodically back itself up to paste been well which I thought

1:36:07was which I thought was a very clever idea.

1:36:10It's complicated not the solution hits like Goldberg machine the persistence every every three seconds it prints out a

1:36:18little piece of paper then that's like a bird in the birds fly hands are there and under a lot of data.

1:36:30Anyway ten foot pole named I.B.M. Don't like it it was like two seconds of the show. I spy to be retired.

1:36:37I actually was going to petition for my own title but that is pretty good.

1:36:41Yeah that's my pick from what I've seen so far. Who doesn't aspire to be retired.

1:36:46You can you aspire to be retired you know Casey.

1:36:48Oh I absolutely I aspire to not like full fledge like John Roderick I have to be a retired CIA director.

1:36:54Just because you're tired is fine. I don't aspire to be retired. You are retired.

1:37:00Retirement like to me the idea of not working is really boring

1:37:05but it's not not working retired means you no longer have your job you would still do the things that you like doing

1:37:11it's just that you don't and you're not doing them because someone is telling you to and that's your life.

1:37:16Almost all the time.

1:37:17Kind of a blurry line though like like I said if I thought I was retired my life would look a lot more like Markos like

1:37:22I would still probably do tech related things it's just that I'm not doing them to get someone is telling me to

1:37:27or because I want to pay me to understand them because it's what I feel like doing well as an example if I was quote

1:37:32unquote retired I would absolutely still write for my blog that not that many people read.

1:37:38I would still do the show because those are the things that I ninety nine percent of the time enjoy doing.

1:37:44I told you earlier I really like my job but I don't enjoy my job ninety nine percent of the time.

1:37:51Kind of in the parking lot sometime exactly as a title of mine that I was going to petition for

1:37:56but I think the other one is better with full stack business person. I think John said but I spire to be retired.

1:38:04He's also pretty awesome

1:38:06and I like four states as a person better than that I think it's more at the heart of the river discussing about like

1:38:12having to do all the aspects of being successful not just the ones that you like.

1:38:17I mean in that respect I guess like when that's not the part of Mark I like to feel like working.

1:38:21Like he enjoys I'm sure you enjoy the develop part way more of the other parts right

1:38:25but you got to do the other parts you know like that's your that's your version of that's your boss basically you know

1:38:30that you have to do the parts of maintaining your business

1:38:33and doing all that crap because you know that's just part of it like you can't

1:38:37and you hate managing people more than you had doing yourself is going to do it

1:38:41and just you know deal with it right that that is essentially your boss

1:38:45but the thing is you know being retired is like well what are depending on a hobby that you pick.

1:38:50There's probably some aspect of that too like for example say I'm retired I would probably still like to write things

1:38:54and maybe I would still write like big you know interviews first I think

1:38:58and there's aspects of the writing process that I don't like to. But overall it's still worth it.

1:39:03So I would do the parts that I don't like because overall I still like it

1:39:06and I would still feel like I'm retired I don't have a boss telling you what to do

1:39:09but I'm still doing activities that have aspects of it that feel like drudgery because the overall I like this.

1:39:16So I'd be like you wrote a show but in the end had everyone you knew

1:39:20and didn't now terror to part now you like every part of that I did.

1:39:26Well I got frustrated but I did like an overall

1:39:29but it's all the fun part life's all development you're not leisure you know like out there you know trying to

1:39:34negotiate for a trademark on the name for your show BOD

1:39:36or filling out paperwork for taxes in New York state like no no no no no nothing like that.

1:39:42I do not underestimate the that's that's another aspect really

1:39:44and talk about this aspect of the independent lifestyle like I think I dislike the business part of it even more than

1:39:50Marco does which is saying something I think well it doesn't. Honestly it isn't that much work.

1:39:55Well as you've done and you get used to it it's kind of becomes more a team but I personally once you cross the point.

1:40:00Where you're you're finally willing to hire an accountant. It makes things so much easier for not that much money.

1:40:05And yeah and you any visible who don't have an accountant. Hire an accountant.

1:40:10All the things that you've learned over your years of doing this.

1:40:13Like that process of learning that I would hate like you've already done it you've learned it you set it up you like

1:40:18but there was that was work to do that maybe you enjoyed it more than more than than you've let on

1:40:22but I am just not want to like things with no interest in that and don't want to deal with it don't want to learn

1:40:27and don't want to be good at it don't.

1:40:29Well but you know there's also there's there's like entire entire types of things that you have to deal with

1:40:36and work for someone else as well.

1:40:37Things like commuting getting you know finding the business dealing with the office and how things are done

1:40:43and how to file for be kidding if you had a fire on a train for those by going to school over your school going to

1:40:49college trains you on how to commute how to live on your own how to deal with bureaucracy how to follow rules how to

1:40:54show places on time all the things the part of the working life school essentially trains you for anyway see it's like

1:40:59but time

1:41:00and chemical are a good job already know how to do this are not a commute I know I do use public transportation

1:41:05and not a show place on time and do assignments and you know like that

1:41:08and that respect school is a preparation for the drudgery of life

1:41:12but all this business of being an entrepreneur is likely nothing prepares you for like well depending what your major

1:41:18is I guess that starting your own business

1:41:20and dealing with like you know all the incorporation in tax goes like the part that you have to deal with having like

1:41:26lots of employees saying we're actually going start a real year like fifty

1:41:28or hundred employees is a whole bunch stuff about that that you don't know

1:41:31and that would have to find out if you decide to do that

1:41:33but you hate that so much you're just never going to do it right because I like I did briefly have a full time employee

1:41:39and it was awful. Paperwork wise and so I stopped doing it.

1:41:42Even though like awful just not like I got an envelope from paychecks every two weeks because I was paying them like

1:41:48you know fifty bucks a month to handle it all for me

1:41:50and even that like stressed me out because I didn't I didn't understand it fully and that that that bothered me

1:41:58but forgot about like H.R. His shoes.

1:42:00Like if you're having a big company we're hiring fifty

1:42:02or a hundred people that's just you know I'm not I'm not saying that that running a company with employees is easier

1:42:08than going work for somebody but working for yourself as a sort of pride or or like a one person L.L.C.

1:42:14Is pretty simple

1:42:15and I would say it's it's simpler than most people who haven't done it probably think especially please for the love of

1:42:22God hire an accountant. As long as you have an accountant and have a lawyer do the D.L.C.

1:42:27Papers you know you'll be out of there for less than two thousand bucks probably for everything to be set up.

1:42:34The hardest part of working for yourself is the work it's making the money.

1:42:40All this other stuff is very minor by comparison.

1:42:43For most businesses that we would start you know we're lucky we're not going to try to make stuff we don't need to hire

1:42:48ten people

1:42:49and have like you know malpractice liability kind of insurance is like you know we're not going to make a profit

1:42:56and kill somebody

1:42:57and then we get sued over it like we're not going to make We're not trying to sell somebody something like some

1:43:02appliance of a couple in their house and going to set our house on fire.

1:43:05Much harder to like start a restaurant for example.

1:43:07Yeah I think he has all of the money up front you have to take all this

1:43:10or is it to be a life saving interior to get business loans at the end of every you know for money

1:43:14and you have a one percent chance of failure.

1:43:15Yeah exactly I mean the kind of business is we start are are very very easy to start

1:43:21and run by comparison I mean you get that so that's why it's like how how fun is it.

1:43:26And that's another aspect how little risk is they're involved.

1:43:29Yeah and you do it in your spare time and do a lot of people think it's really cool.

1:43:33Starting a restaurant is a lot of people think that's really cool.

1:43:36But you cannot set in your spare time what you hold on a regular job very easily like physical businesses starting a

1:43:42retail store

1:43:42or starting a restaurant stuff like that are much worse which is why you know it's so many people writing apps.

1:43:49Yeah because it only takes like one hundred bucks and a few hours of time

1:43:54and you have an app in the store that like it takes so little right Casey to have.

1:44:00Well that would be true if I had already known I was developing

1:44:04when I wrote fast action I know your I know you are being silly

1:44:07but if I were to write fast text again today in fact I have considered rewriting it and swear maybe the fast

1:44:14but maybe the fastest patter with you and I I I say compatible or it has to start over.

1:44:19Honestly that often is the answer to whenever Apple changes stuff dramatically like I was it dramatically changes all

1:44:25the odd overtaken stuff and like they you know they replace all of it

1:44:29and starting over with a brand new app is definitely easier in some cases especially if the app is relatively simple

1:44:38like fast text is it's definitely easier just to try to like carry forward this I less four codebase for five years.

1:44:47Yeah you're absolutely right on a very random note John I'm a little disappointed in you because I eat fast food

1:44:54italian last week and you did not break me at all.

1:44:58I thought you posted a picture of something I didn't know what that was only if I don't write

1:45:05and not recognize that I mean to look like you know the typical garden like hot dog buns with grease sprayed on the

1:45:12people that people think are bread steaks

1:45:15but I thought maybe it was like like you had gone back to like Virginia Tech

1:45:20and like old like you know like a place a place on campus that you were into I'm like whatever like maybe it's I don't

1:45:26know I just know a time for everything anyway so yes you're right there is certainly no Italians in the entire

1:45:33Commonwealth of Virginia

1:45:35and certainly know the right of refugees there's always this fast food italian that is not a joke it is like a fast

1:45:43casual I think it's what they call like a pan Arab Red sort of thing.

1:45:46And when you're in facilities and you're dining in you get unlimited What do you call them grease sprayed hot dog buns.

1:45:54Yeah. Marlice and and there there is if there was another still is a fizzle ease.

1:46:00In the town next to where Virginia Tech is and I used to love going there and I haven't been to one in years

1:46:08and we were on our way back from the beach

1:46:10and I thought you know I think there's a facility somewhere in Virginia Beach and sure enough we looked

1:46:17and there was one and I begged Aaron. Would it be OK if we stopped and she said absolutely. And it was delicious.

1:46:24I'm looking through his menu here and I'm betting all of this is microwave probably way it looks.

1:46:29Everything I found so far could be easily microwave Here's a so we're going time restaurant on my B.S.

1:46:35Jobs in high school and I learned very quickly that you shouldn't order things like was on your interest

1:46:42or I had that was you you know you can't you know going to make somebody a single serving.

1:46:47Cuba's on you know when the order it that doesn't make sense it's impractical it's probably impossible

1:46:52but I think the kind of time I was on is made ahead of time and put in the fridge or frozen

1:46:57and a mini order at the microwave and service you want to play

1:47:00and you know looking at these kind of entrees they have here I'm looking at all the same like this probably all work

1:47:06that would probably all are just like pre-made in the freezer.

1:47:09Micro if you have the particular dish I had was the ultimate sampler which I did not consume all of because I didn't

1:47:18have I didn't have the room but it is fettuccine alfredo meat was on E.S.P.N. He and Penny with meat sauce.

1:47:25So Stark's butter butter starch beef butter

1:47:27and starchy foods a problem with fast food italian like fast food in terms of like you walk up to someone tell them

1:47:34what you want and you keep staying there until you get the food

1:47:36or you know we started out even if you take a little number if you wear it while it's like I mean it takes a minimum

1:47:41like you know three four five minute to cook pasta.

1:47:45But the fast food italian place like what they have to have the Bastardi ready and it is dumped into hot water

1:47:49and it's like you can't that's not good. Like me just forget it.

1:47:53I mean I would rather have a microwave tables on it than some pasta that's been sitting around waiting for me to show

1:47:58up and they just don't get in hot water and soap.

1:48:00Like no you can't you can't have the knowledge thing is fast food passed another kind of diet would I mean the big

1:48:07restaurants make a bundle of Arnie anyway and kind of for you but they make it that day.

1:48:10Not all is well you know they're going to tell us about a place I wish I were that they wouldn't even bother the crap

1:48:17out of me.

1:48:19The bread they serve was frozen you know bought in and it was usually better for ten minutes

1:48:24and it is a privilege of warming up to the butter they would have me take the butter cups from the tables that were

1:48:31half used and just pop them off and put them back up. Yes probably legal.

1:48:36Yeah I and I resisted I know I would whenever I would not do that they would yell at me and make me do it.

1:48:44Oh man it was a no fat fast food italian should not be a thing that I guess I suppose pizzas kind of fast food a tiny

1:48:51thing but even if you take a little while to cook and prepare I don't know

1:48:55but I'm I'm not into these places that you enjoyed your terrible test for Italian you know where else I was at a Sonic

1:49:02Drive-In which is also amazing

1:49:04and I don't think you guys have that in NE because it's like a tour of the worst fast food restaurant in the country.

1:49:10So this is you know what it's like.

1:49:12You listening to me talk about how much I was there's Ollie's in Sonic is like the entire rest of the friggin world

1:49:18listening to you talk about Phish cheesy bread hot dogs. I did not have that. I had just a cheeseburger. This is very.

1:49:24What color is that drink what is this made from food which drink any of them but all of that are shown on the Web site.

1:49:33They're always like me on those bright blue it's like a purist cyan like a bright. So what are the hot dogs in this.

1:49:43She's been with cheese and bacon on top of the hot dog with cheese wrapped around it and she's on topic.

1:49:48Oh my God LOL It's only eleven hundred calories for one of these burgers. That's pretty low for fast food.

1:49:55How is one of these cheesy. Let's see the one they're showing on the front page.

1:50:00The ultimate cheese and bacon cheesy bread dog name where you were to get the info when attrition

1:50:08and only five hundred fifty calories that's not as much as I would've thought from although it's only one hot dog

1:50:13presently probably one or two of them but yeah no ultimate cheese and bacon cheesy bread dogs still

1:50:22and one five hundred fifty calories.

1:50:24The teal cyan drink I was seeing on the home screen is apparently Powerade brand mountain blast slush which tastes like

1:50:33mountain blast so I guess only one hundred fifty calories for that saying oh wait what that's a wacky pack.

1:50:41What is a Wacky Packs. So this is one of the sets were like every other word.

1:50:45Has he registered trademark symbol after it.

1:50:48Because like none of this is actually food it's all just like cot concepts

1:50:51and marketing trends they've invented some how fast food burgers

1:50:55and hot dogs don't bother me as much as like fess would tell you it's because you're telling

1:51:00and I don't know I don't others like that I just been like burgers and how those were always kind of fast food

1:51:05and there's not. They're mostly soy protein anyway or we have Shake Shack here now.

1:51:11I like that I've never had Shake Shack but I'd really love to. I've heard it's excellent is very good.

1:51:16There is usually a big line at the one than your going to have the one that ever rolls are but it is it is very good.

1:51:22It's greasy

1:51:23but it's like it's like greasy fast food done by foodies So it it it is a high quality implementation of greasy fast

1:51:33food. How do you guys have Five Guys Burgers and Fries of where you are.

1:51:36Yeah we have them so and comparing them they're different.

1:51:39I think I think Shake Shack feels a little bit more like feel like it's worse for you in your eating it which can be

1:51:46good and bad.

1:51:49I don't think there's any real like health

1:51:51or calorie difference between them like five guys feels more like it was made by you in your house or backyard

1:51:59and share.

1:52:00Exactly it's more like it was made in a restaurant because I mean they used a potato bun which maybe you wouldn't use

1:52:04at home and their burgers are a little different I like them both I think five guys fries are better

1:52:11and five has more variety in their menu but I stopped going to you know McDonald's and Burger King

1:52:16or whatever I guess after I graduated college

1:52:18and I think the reason I went in there is because they were like in the food court

1:52:21and I could buy them with my little you know points card thing but I don't really go to those anymore

1:52:26but takes much exact came I started going to that

1:52:28and I realized it was like making up for all those years that I never went to McDonald's Burger King or

1:52:32when you're at a fast food place because now I can go to Shake Shack and pay way more money

1:52:37and wait on a humongous line or have my wife went on a money line rather and anger burgers

1:52:43and I mean they work at home and stuff too but ones are better than the ones that make it home

1:52:48and probably much worse for me to see that this is a totally southern thing but we have a thing in North Carolina

1:52:53and Virginia called cookout and they can get like forty four pounds of food for five bucks or something like that.

1:53:00But but it is just like you were at a cookout in your backyard it is Yury how similar the burgers taste.

1:53:10But my backyard cookouts aren't that good though I want better for them.

1:53:13Why wouldn't you just have a cook at a cookout is not that hard to have

1:53:17and I'm not I'm no good I'm no good at making burgers found out that a voter tried to do anything special to make their

1:53:23home there are right but I recently decided that it's not really worth grilling burgers.

1:53:29Most of the time I get really hot dogs it's so much easier because they're precooked so you can't really overcooked

1:53:36them and they're very very obvious like when they're done and you like it's just so much

1:53:41and then you can have two of them or you can do different things like you know you don't get awful for having one.

1:53:46Hot dogs are slightly worse for your problem and burgers fries slightly

1:53:51but they know the ones that are all beef it's mostly just you know just beef

1:53:54and nitrates Oh yeah well they have a low nitrate one through the month of May.

1:54:00But the whole forever I got a Whole Foods hotdogs once like they have the like

1:54:05and no nitrates baking at Whole Foods they have also it's like healthier equivalents of healthy food really

1:54:09and they're all awful but just terrible I actually said.

1:54:15I recently discovered there's a I don't know the brand name is there's a brand of like hipster Brooklyn hot dogs.

1:54:22They're actually made in Brooklyn and it's like eight dollars for six of them

1:54:26but they're really good they're like super foot long thing and they have the natural casing

1:54:31and there'll be if you wanted There's a commercial option which is also really expensive

1:54:35but this is basically the hotdogs I buys a fair offer something terrible for me a better to tamper with the terrible

1:54:41thing. Boris had a natural casing long hotdog.

1:54:46Yeah it's very similar to the my store has those two they're very little like seven dollars for a pack

1:54:53or something like that.

1:54:53Yeah they're good though like it will go in there were just similar they're they're good because it only has like four

1:54:59ingredients and you know it's mostly beef salt and casing

1:55:02and they're you know given how rarely I actually eat hot dogs.

1:55:07I'm willing to spend a dollar twenty five unusual if I have to do that because they are really good to look that up to

1:55:14be a bore said down your Huizi.

1:55:16Absolutely try those ever ever on this bike I should try those particular hot dogs because I think most people bought

1:55:22into their look weird

1:55:23and people are afraid of them because they natural Kaysing try to like them so much better than every other hot dog if

1:55:30i don't we don't buy anything except Boris at our dog because I want to eat anything else at this point

1:55:34and then you have the regular choice or is it our dogs and the four long ones and you know they're expensive

1:55:39or whatever is worth trying once to see if you care about the difference you know there's a hot dog shop very very near

1:55:45to actually across the street from where I work and don't be creepy and it is really awesome.

1:55:52In part because the casing has set like a really awesome snap to it in Africa.

1:56:01And parents going to chat mentions ne things with Nathan's with natural his and those are hard to find around here

1:56:07but I think they're the best tasting ones I've had that the Nathan's that we're using for long they might have them

1:56:15and a little hard to find

1:56:17but I figure to it like you know if you're eating hotdogs so often that paying about seventy five cents to a dollar per

1:56:26hotdog is a big problem for you I think they're eating too many hot dogs of each other

1:56:33or you may you may be a picky toddler that only had hot dogs.

1:56:39Yes that this rule exams anyone under the age of seventeen.

1:56:42Otherwise you're going to if you're an adult and even to me how dogs than that's a problem

1:56:47and if you're not you know many hot dogs and you can afford a dollar per dog

1:56:50or whatever you can get these good ones who they really are better.

1:56:55Well you really need to find know in my friend Phil. He has found up in the D.C. Area.

1:57:03This guy what is the name of the business I don't remember but it's it's a guy who makes sausage is his name is Losar.

1:57:10He's like six three and three hundred pounds and he's from Hamburg and perfect or some

1:57:16or some like that I forget it somewhere in Germany. And oh my goodness.

1:57:20His sausages

1:57:22or wonderful in that is a terrible poll quote going to pay for it later in life that I don't like one of the now

1:57:30committed sausages that little fart makes are excellent and I should just stop talking now.

1:57:39Can we be done to try to have crazy food part of gas market will pick up most of us. Yeah definitely.

1:57:44Except for cases sauce we love. OK thanks. Oh.