The Accidental Tech Podcast

7: The Forecast For iCloud


00:00:00   it's interesting at all I'm bored what we're talking about tonight is anything [TS]

00:00:07   to talk about the summary thing I know I thought your post about david was really [TS]

00:00:13   interesting this is obviously mutual admiration society but I thought it was [TS]

00:00:19   very it was very person in in impressive that he was smart enough not to reveal [TS]

00:00:25   his age and then made in hoops and and like you said suddenly every article [TS]

00:00:30   about amber became about his age rather than the fact that number was really [TS]

00:00:33   well done right and that's too bad but I've never used some least I don't know [TS]

00:00:38   if it's any good apparently you say it's not good I i was i mean I don't know [TS]

00:00:43   what they did in the last six to nine months they they had they have their [TS]

00:00:50   whole app that was the whole news browsing thing that all came about [TS]

00:00:53   fairly recently before all that is when I tried it so i didnt trying to do stuff [TS]

00:00:57   so I can't really speak to what it was but the originally the whole [TS]

00:01:02   summarization engine I was really not impressed by [TS]

00:01:07   I think it was a reasonable idea to try to do something like that but it wasn't [TS]

00:01:15   that compelling like something like that we're okay so the idea of this thing is [TS]

00:01:19   to take any web article news article whatever the case and summarize it into [TS]

00:01:25   like three little $0.01 bullet points and so the idea that you don't have to [TS]

00:01:30   read everything well first of all somebody who likes reading things that's [TS]

00:01:33   kind of missing the point but OK to some uses for that I can see that the problem [TS]

00:01:39   is the summaries were so bad I'm not you know occasionally would get maybe one [TS]

00:01:45   and a half of the three bullet points would make sense but that wasn't the [TS]

00:01:49   best Irish I do so it was a way to poorly summarized news stories sometimes [TS]

00:01:57   and so to me i just don't have anywhere that fits into my life and probably [TS]

00:02:03   don't remember this because you didn't start using that until recently but back [TS]

00:02:06   in the classic Mac OS two is Apple made a big stink at one point in it [TS]

00:02:10   sad decline in the nineties about system wide text summarization service where [TS]

00:02:16   you could select text and asked to summarize it and it would summarize it [TS]

00:02:19   down to a couple sentences the sound familiar yet and this was classic macros [TS]

00:02:24   and that feature might still be in there should go back and I caught him in and [TS]

00:02:28   see if there's a summarized tax thing with that but it predates Pakistan my [TS]

00:02:33   recollection and yet not that feature did not set the world on fire and you [TS]

00:02:39   know I don't know what the state of the art is with with natural language [TS]

00:02:42   processing doing summarization I'm sure this probably good stuff out there but [TS]

00:02:48   the thing with lots of natural language processing or or AI type algorithms is [TS]

00:02:54   that a lot of times the best they can ever do is like an 80 percent job and so [TS]

00:02:59   there's a lot of cases in the rubber that's useful but usually when you're [TS]

00:03:04   like directly between the data and the human and you're trying to do like just [TS]

00:03:08   as one smart thing that involves language and and concepts and a very [TS]

00:03:14   subjective difficult complicated things it's it's not usually good idea to to [TS]

00:03:21   expose the ASAP addressed to people whose usual it's like let's say it's 95% [TS]

00:03:26   good 5% is still pretty often you're looking to hit that a lot you know so [TS]

00:03:31   like John you talked a lot about speech recognition software you use it a lot [TS]

00:03:36   and dictation software you know what what do you think is like the the most [TS]

00:03:42   the highest acceptable error rate that you would still use it for summarization [TS]

00:03:48   of her speech speech recognition in the area is pretty high and I'm I think I'd [TS]

00:03:56   be willing to put up with a much higher rate than I currently get in fact I [TS]

00:03:59   think I'd be willing to trade correctness for responsiveness because [TS]

00:04:05   when you're trying to speak you don't want to be waiting like that the [TS]

00:04:09   building technician dictation and I was 10 is the worst case because you [TS]

00:04:14   activate a little thing and then he's a little blinking cursor funny you think [TS]

00:04:17   you talk then [TS]

00:04:19   you have to activate the thing again to say okay take what I just said and do [TS]

00:04:24   something with it and then you started the blanket thing and then a whole bunch [TS]

00:04:27   of tax comes on screen and that's when you find out whether it is been totally [TS]

00:04:30   off the rails whereas if it had exactly the same area but did it were to time in [TS]

00:04:35   a kind of Syrian the Google you know I was talk speech searching thing [TS]

00:04:41   responsiveness i think is more important than than correctness this obviously was [TS]

00:04:45   you know seventy percent error you'd be annoyed but I think being responsive is [TS]

00:04:50   more important than being psychic correct because the dragon is really has [TS]

00:04:54   really really good actually really high accuracy but still frustrate me [TS]

00:04:57   sometimes when I'm talking faster than the taxes appearing and I had to stop [TS]

00:05:00   and maybe I don't have to stop but I do stop to wait to see the last you know [TS]

00:05:04   fifteen words come splashing out on the screen usually all at once to say that [TS]

00:05:08   it's on the same page because you don't do that if you just like close your eyes [TS]

00:05:11   and talk it will do an amazingly good job but every once in a while to get [TS]

00:05:14   something off and I'll go back and I'll be but what I do know what are called [TS]

00:05:17   wrote by speaking and I have no idea what the hell I was saying and how do I [TS]

00:05:21   look at it and try to think a comment and say now like which word that sounds [TS]

00:05:25   like the words on the page because when you make your own typos it's like I was [TS]

00:05:29   typing the right word and I scribbled out what it was you said but when you do [TS]

00:05:33   like speech shows where it transcribes the wrong thing it's it could be so far [TS]

00:05:38   off semantically and I've literally had times where I sit I have no idea what [TS]

00:05:42   the heck I was trying to say here business sense actually makes no sense [TS]

00:05:44   whatsoever know all the words are spelled correctly in english words they [TS]

00:05:47   don't make any sense another remember what I was saying and I gotta like say [TS]

00:05:50   the word as written out loud and closed my eyes and think about it sounds like [TS]

00:05:54   what I mean I don't think anyone many people would choose to use speech [TS]

00:05:59   recognition for this way like I wouldn't be using it if I didn't have our side [TS]

00:06:03   things with typing right that I think that's why you'll know [TS]

00:06:06   speech recognition has really arrived when people who can already type very [TS]

00:06:11   quickly [TS]

00:06:12   shoes to use speech recognition instead because it's like if he is fast or you [TS]

00:06:19   know it's so accurate that is why would you bother putting your fingers around [TS]

00:06:23   know that right now it's not a a group activity what I mean by that is if [TS]

00:06:30   you're working in an office cubicles like john i presume you do and how I [TS]

00:06:34   certainly do if all of us are talking to our computers that's going to be a bit [TS]

00:06:40   allowed to say the least and furthermore you know doing the sorts of things that [TS]

00:06:45   all three of us do which is right code which is a far cry from regular pros I I [TS]

00:06:52   never imagined nor tried to do speech recognition for writing code but i John [TS]

00:06:57   I can't imagine you're writing pearl and regular expressions which is basically [TS]

00:07:00   the same thing using speech recognition is not the same thing and no and a good [TS]

00:07:11   role I i do my best if you like you know there's this place is for the stuff like [TS]

00:07:18   a lot of people have said that you know first of all there are there [TS]

00:07:23   opportunities for anything that could be considered an assistive technology for [TS]

00:07:28   people like dictation is great for people who can't type and RSI is you [TS]

00:07:33   know a usually mild but still a handicap and so if you if you can't or would [TS]

00:07:40   rather not use your hands to type then it's great to have alternatives but you [TS]

00:07:48   know the place for the stuff is in other contexts you know people who don't [TS]

00:07:52   permanently have a specific disability but who might temporarily have one for [TS]

00:07:56   example when you're driving you really shouldn't be typing so when driving also [TS]

00:08:02   theoretically hopefully partially blind to your computing device so that's why [TS]

00:08:08   things like voice commands and audio cues can be so useful in a mobile app [TS]

00:08:14   that they are expected to use while you're in the cards like serious great [TS]

00:08:17   for that but you know syria is not good enough for me to dictate everything that [TS]

00:08:22   way you know as john said like it when you have alternatives will take them but [TS]

00:08:26   it's still good to have this thing when you don't have alternative motives or [TS]

00:08:31   worse I'm trying to look up to a text summarization service in class [TS]

00:08:35   and i cant find it all I can find to the references to it existing a Mac OS 10 so [TS]

00:08:40   maybe I miss remembering the time I could have sworn this was like from [TS]

00:08:43   michael has paid or whatever but anyway if you want to just fired txt Edit now [TS]

00:08:46   in Pakistan's put it past the budget ax in there from an article [TS]

00:08:50   select the tax code of the Services menu summarized will be in there if you [TS]

00:08:53   didn't deactivate it in your profane and you get a little slider that lets you [TS]

00:08:56   you know cracking down to you know one sentence if you want so I gotta [TS]

00:09:02   understand how I don't know anything about this only thing except except what [TS]

00:09:06   i've read his blog and like two other news stories and summarization is not [TS]

00:09:12   the whole thing was like it would you know it was going to let you consume [TS]

00:09:16   news without you having to look for all the news you try to give you a condensed [TS]

00:09:20   version but not you know I am I getting this right but not any human do it [TS]

00:09:23   having the computer do it and summarization would be a part of that [TS]

00:09:27   but if it's the summarization part of their excited about like you know this [TS]

00:09:32   feature is always existed for a long time but there is a classic Mac OS not [TS]

00:09:35   knowing cares that it's there is it patent encumbered is it like I I still [TS]

00:09:40   don't understand why they pay $39 I don't understand it all that will answer [TS]

00:09:46   that and that's what a lot of the debate has been about is you know first of all [TS]

00:09:50   it's cool to say Yahoo is being stupid because I who's had some pretty bad [TS]

00:09:54   decades so everyone's like a look at how stupid yahoos being again but I don't [TS]

00:09:59   think that's I don't think it's them being stupid you know usually if you [TS]

00:10:02   think a company's being stupid usually you are looking at the whole picture or [TS]

00:10:07   they're there something that you're missing or you know there's some better [TS]

00:10:09   reason for what they're doing that's better explain then they're idiots so I [TS]

00:10:15   think you can look at the company is grim now called blackberry anyway that [TS]

00:10:22   they actually are idiots but for the most part everybody else you know when [TS]

00:10:25   when the explanation is how they're being stupid is usually more to it so I [TS]

00:10:29   think in this case a lot of people have suggested so it so here's the deal day [TS]

00:10:33   they bought some Lee the the product and part of the staff for thirty million [TS]

00:10:39   dollars most of actress cash I think they said 10 percent woodstock but all [TS]

00:10:43   the numbers are actually [TS]

00:10:45   door from inside sources unnamed the numbers were not officially made public [TS]

00:10:48   but everyone saying thirty million dollars mostly in cash and so the end [TS]

00:10:53   and it's a classic textbook [TS]

00:10:54   higher the product is immediately shut down and Yahoo paid for this I started [TS]

00:11:01   at a relatively modest sum for basically for three people were the three most [TS]

00:11:08   important people by their definition to work for Yahoo for a minimum of 18 [TS]

00:11:13   months so basically they've paid like 10 million ahead for these key people and [TS]

00:11:19   that's that sounds even more crazy now that you're telling me more about this [TS]

00:11:22   I'm thinking it's crazy that I thought so they're shutting down the stupid [TS]

00:11:26   product that summarizes stuff so it's it's gone it's they pulled from the App [TS]

00:11:29   Store and i know i dont standard like there's no way those three people over [TS]

00:11:35   thirty million dollars this know that some people are saying that that the [TS]

00:11:42   technology was actually license from ESRI the the parent company of Syria [TS]

00:11:46   before up about it that that the the speech recognition or the natural [TS]

00:11:51   language processing technology was actually ESRI's and it was licensed from [TS]

00:11:54   them that simply didn't develop that but then the Somali people are denying that [TS]

00:11:58   so that's it's unclear what what is the truth there but at least what Yahoo but [TS]

00:12:03   at least we know that he bought was they paid thirty million dollars for these [TS]

00:12:07   three people one of whom is the 17 year old kid Nick got it should not [TS]

00:12:12   references last name do you start of the alloy CEO and EtOAc oh I'm sorry I'm [TS]

00:12:21   probably sharing that Nick D hehe but not make done this is tough anyway [TS]

00:12:30   Nick D lolz oh sorry he started this company was 15 now e17 so now he's a [TS]

00:12:37   seventeen year old tech whiz kid Millionaire which of course the press [TS]

00:12:40   loves to bang on that angle so much [TS]

00:12:43   and and I i kinda rip them apart yesterday for that as as you're saying [TS]

00:12:47   the top of the show about how that was originally a problem a tumbler with [TS]

00:12:51   david was so young but you know so all the stories are about how young this kid [TS]

00:12:58   is or about the tech press freaking out that why the heck today by this and why [TS]

00:13:03   they pay so much but to bring us back a little bit we had a couple weeks ago we [TS]

00:13:09   had a question from Bobby Becker he suggested an interesting topic he said [TS]

00:13:13   what if Apple bought Yahoo and the idea there was like Apple needs to buy or [TS]

00:13:21   Apple needs good server side and services talent and Yahoo might have [TS]

00:13:26   that an apartment this topic for a little bit Yahoo is is still very [TS]

00:13:31   popular among especially among non geek demographics like normal people as we [TS]

00:13:37   like to say in the world which is probably condescending or somehow weird [TS]

00:13:41   but sorry about that I don't know what the right term is none do you think is [TS]

00:13:46   fair but I think Yahoo is for the most part of resting on their previously [TS]

00:13:52   previously achieved laurels and I don't think they've really done a lot in the [TS]

00:13:59   last decade maybe two to really get new users and to really grow the company and [TS]

00:14:03   that's why everyone has had a bit of trouble and that's why isn't it was [TS]

00:14:07   interesting when they brought a Marissa Meyer CEO from Google that that was [TS]

00:14:10   interesting but either way this company this company that needs to make a [TS]

00:14:14   comeback of some sort they've also in the last decade gone through a lot of [TS]

00:14:19   layoffs a lot of very talented people have left or gotten fired or laid off so [TS]

00:14:26   it they i don't i don't have any inside sources Yahoo but I have to imagine they [TS]

00:14:32   probably have a talent shortage and because if you're really good you [TS]

00:14:38   probably have you probably were not happy working Yahoo in the last decade [TS]

00:14:41   you probably left or didn't go there in the first place because they just lost [TS]

00:14:45   so many good people over the last year or so and they have some good properties [TS]

00:14:50   like Flickr that we've just seen just [TS]

00:14:53   languish and and stagnate as all the good people of left north or so [TS]

00:15:00   Yahoo talent wise I have to imagine is not in good shape so the other angle [TS]

00:15:06   people are discussing with the summly deal is first of all nick de le CEO [TS]

00:15:11   again I'm sorry he he might be a really good product sensibility person and [TS]

00:15:19   that's that's what you know that's the kind of person that that in one way [TS]

00:15:23   steve Jobs was it's the kind of person certainly the David Karp visit tumblr [TS]

00:15:26   having believe me he is he's definitely kind of person and and that that's a [TS]

00:15:32   very valuable kind of person to just short short handed called products [TS]

00:15:38   people product people can make or break a company because they make the [TS]

00:15:43   decisions about what products should be and they have the sensibilities to know [TS]

00:15:47   what people will like and what will work so if Nick DLB CEO is a really good [TS]

00:15:53   product person then it would be valuable to bring them onto Yahoo because Yahoo [TS]

00:15:59   needs people like that [TS]

00:16:00   not thirty million dollars from sole reason that you pay $39 and his when I [TS]

00:16:06   come up with is not too great and based on information one there's a bidding war [TS]

00:16:10   you're not the only one who wants to buy these people if you pay with the market [TS]

00:16:13   demands of you want the more than someone else has gone up in we get them [TS]

00:16:16   in and two is intellectual property they have some stuff there would you know it [TS]

00:16:21   would cost you it's a huge selection of properties would cost you more to let [TS]

00:16:26   someone else cooped up in the UFC licenses from them long-term those the [TS]

00:16:30   only two things I can think oh well what I'm thinking is there there are two [TS]

00:16:35   factors here that could have driven the price up artificially one is that Yahoo [TS]

00:16:42   is again not in good shape and you know that you could argue that having a [TS]

00:16:50   really good product person is very valuable to the company you could [TS]

00:16:54   counter argues that while he's only obligated to stay there for 18 months so [TS]

00:16:58   they are you good urs [TS]

00:17:01   18 months one thing and the second thing is unproven show me your a product is a [TS]

00:17:06   great product was the thing that we just can then known as really interested in [TS]

00:17:08   cause I think gramm even Steve Jobs and get thirty million dollars a day he [TS]

00:17:11   arrived at Apple in 1997 he had to kind of sort of a kick out the old CEO and be [TS]

00:17:16   kinda sorta prove myself before I like they're like okay well you know i mean [TS]

00:17:20   he did come out the gate and CEO Steve Jobs wonderful you're gonna me to let [TS]

00:17:24   you take over and give you tons and tons of money and showered with praise of [TS]

00:17:27   Steve Jobs has to prove himself this kid has to as well I guess is not you don't [TS]

00:17:30   pay thirty million dollars for a couple of employees no matter who they are even [TS]

00:17:34   if they literally on the best employees in the entire world you don't you just [TS]

00:17:37   how much money for well you would have to you could get those employees for [TS]

00:17:42   less money if there if they didn't know like they obviously know they have [TS]

00:17:45   something or think or know they have something that actually worth much more [TS]

00:17:48   than they were [TS]

00:17:49   would be individually as employees you know maybe Yahoo can't get them for less [TS]

00:17:54   Yahoo again they yahoo has a problem because if you're really good in this [TS]

00:17:58   industry do you want to work at Yahoo [TS]

00:18:01   probably not that's a million dollars ahead for 18 months would do it so [TS]

00:18:06   anyway so you know one thing I I think they can justify the high price by [TS]

00:18:09   saying well we're Yahoo [TS]

00:18:11   we need people we need good people the other thing is Nick doee CEO again I'm [TS]

00:18:16   sorry is extremely relentless and really really good at self-promotion this guy [TS]

00:18:24   there is there is a link to this gizmo article which is really kind of [TS]

00:18:28   tasteless honestly I felt bad evenly on Gizmodo really here because when you [TS]

00:18:37   know this guy keep in mind this is a teenager or at least he was 18 I guess [TS]

00:18:41   or seventy whatever but this is a teenager like if I started a company [TS]

00:18:47   when I was a teenager and got a whole bunch of publicity and got all over the [TS]

00:18:50   press and was able to email [TS]

00:18:52   people who were important in the industry I don't know that I would have [TS]

00:18:55   had that much better honestly cuz when I was a teenager I was an idiot and I i [TS]

00:18:59   guess im probably going to look back at this time in 10 years since I was an [TS]

00:19:04   idiot now but I at least feel like I'm way less of an idiot now than it was [TS]

00:19:07   announced a teenager so I gotta gotta give this kid the benefit of the doubt [TS]

00:19:11   that ok you know he he was 15 when he started all this stuff [TS]

00:19:14   and when I was 15 I was an idiot so anyway but he he emailed the motor [TS]

00:19:23   reporter relentlessly like every day making up all this stuff like oh my boss [TS]

00:19:29   is getting on my back and you don't put my app in the hall of fame or something [TS]

00:19:32   like that and everything was marked urgent so I didn't see that story when [TS]

00:19:35   it came out but Nick gave me a similar email Mirage about six months later [TS]

00:19:42   trying to get me to integrate some lean to Instapaper and I mean the email she [TS]

00:19:49   sent where I don't want to be mean to the kids but I mean it was ridiculous he [TS]

00:19:54   he he he would have multiple times a day from some of these days everything was [TS]

00:19:59   marked like super urgent even though it wasn't urgent which is just kind of a [TS]

00:20:03   rude thing to do and he he he would impose artificial sense of urgency and [TS]

00:20:10   and everything had to be done quickly right now oh my god [TS]

00:20:13   a lot like high pressure car salesmen you know like really like high-pressure [TS]

00:20:17   manipulation I would say end and really I was not left with a very good [TS]

00:20:23   impression of nixon these emotions because I felt like I was being [TS]

00:20:25   manipulated and and badgered and an annoyed so this included you know [TS]

00:20:31   because you the exact same thing that somebody else I have to imagine this is [TS]

00:20:33   just part of his personality where he can imagine the crap out of people until [TS]

00:20:37   until they do what he wants and and so is his company his company has some [TS]

00:20:45   fairly prominent investors he had a video promotional video done with [TS]

00:20:50   Stephen Fry and among other other people did a few things with two and like he [TS]

00:20:56   has a lot of connections obviously and I don't know if he battled his way [TS]

00:20:59   interfere earn them or what this kid is really really good at getting people on [TS]

00:21:05   his side and badgering people into paying attention to him and doing what [TS]

00:21:09   he wants for his product so it's very possible that just Yahoo's desperation [TS]

00:21:15   and that could have been the only two factors that made this price go WAY [TS]

00:21:19   higher than we think it probably should have that seems highly unlikely to me [TS]

00:21:22   you didn't get these kids emails I saw I read the articles I guess he's annoying [TS]

00:21:28   but like this there's obviously something there that we don't know I [TS]

00:21:33   don't have information about the something bidding war its intellectual [TS]

00:21:37   property it's not it's obviously not the product is they can that the kids out [TS]

00:21:41   that the product of a user base that transferring now be there has got to be [TS]

00:21:45   gotta be some thing else had less than 2 million downloads and no revenue think [TS]

00:21:50   about like if you're running a company you can't you can't hire superstar [TS]

00:21:53   person for you know ten million dollars head all your existing people who are [TS]

00:21:58   lightweight and I superstar water night at ten million dollars for it doesn't [TS]

00:22:02   you just can't do that doesn't gotta be something they're worth money to the [TS]

00:22:06   company as human beings I I think it's clear I think you're right that we we [TS]

00:22:11   don't know the whole story here because obviously this still seems ridiculous [TS]

00:22:15   but I don't think there needs to be that much more to it for it to be [TS]

00:22:20   understandable or or plausible like I don't think they had some kind of [TS]

00:22:25   awesome super duper natural language processing technology the Yahoo now owns [TS]

00:22:30   I don't think that's it all because I saw the technology that wasn't a [TS]

00:22:32   compelling but I might just be patents and intellectual property is actually be [TS]

00:22:36   awesome it can be super duper dominance act is the best kind of patents the [TS]

00:22:40   Superdome path I don't think they were in business longer to get a patent [TS]

00:22:42   issued patent everyone's got a pet when I read somewhere today and I wish I [TS]

00:22:48   remember where I read this so this is probably fall since I barely remember [TS]

00:22:52   where I read it but somebody said that it wasn't even there tack that they it [TS]

00:22:57   was like quasi Siri in that they license the text from someone else and just [TS]

00:23:02   putting you in front of it called it there's so I agree with you john that if [TS]

00:23:07   it's not the people than it should be I P but supposedly the IP isn't there's [TS]

00:23:13   anyway so what gives [TS]

00:23:16   I don't know why I think I think you know johns right there is there has to [TS]

00:23:22   be something else here that has not been reported one if its the desperation of [TS]

00:23:27   Yahoo something that I've heard and read a lot about lately is how desperate [TS]

00:23:33   Apple is so how far as Apple from being in this position and I know that's kind [TS]

00:23:36   of ridiculous and absurd thing to ask but it's also kind of a legitimate thing [TS]

00:23:41   to ask I mean is Apple really where the super incredible mega nerds want to be [TS]

00:23:48   these days that's a very good question i've i've heard a lot of things [TS]

00:23:52   rumors and some things from people in Apple that they have a lot of problems [TS]

00:23:57   retaining good talent getting good talent mate Mitt may be getting to town [TS]

00:24:01   they still ok with that retaining good talent that they're having a big problem [TS]

00:24:05   there it makes sense that they have trouble retaining because I like the way [TS]

00:24:10   Apple works is if you are a really smart you know great performer lots of talent [TS]

00:24:16   but can do lots of different things you're not going to go to Apple and get [TS]

00:24:22   to do what you want to do because the company does so few things like it's [TS]

00:24:25   focused right so you can help contribute to what may be a big deal but you're not [TS]

00:24:30   going to go you know I have this really great idea for this thing and they [TS]

00:24:35   should I every month I do like the only very very few ideas actually get [TS]

00:24:38   implemented so eventually after work done one or two things that that Apple [TS]

00:24:43   decide to do and you were important contributing to them or whatever you [TS]

00:24:47   will inevitably say well you know but now I want to actually do the thing that [TS]

00:24:50   I was thinking of that i think is cool there's no way for you to do that inside [TS]

00:24:54   of Apple so you inevitably have to leave and it's not like the faulted Apple for [TS]

00:24:59   doing this because they have to be focuses the company but the really smart [TS]

00:25:04   multi talented people you can't keep them and find a place where they can [TS]

00:25:10   only contribute to the one or two or three things that are important for a [TS]

00:25:13   blue do they will want to go off on their own even if it's just like you [TS]

00:25:16   know like I just wanna go often and make make letterpress or something like it [TS]

00:25:20   you know Apple's not interested in Napa maybe you are and you can't do that with [TS]

00:25:24   an apple and so you like right well you know [TS]

00:25:27   I worked on this I worked on that they were great it's really important work [TS]

00:25:30   lots of people use it but i just want to do my thing so I think I think it's [TS]

00:25:34   inevitable and also you know you can you can kind of get some idea that you know [TS]

00:25:39   most of the people I know and maybe this is just the people i've i've observed [TS]

00:25:42   cause to I follow on Twitter or whatever but most of the people I know who have [TS]

00:25:46   left Apple have gone too much smaller companies often times they've they've [TS]

00:25:52   gone to start a startup and I think it's it's part of what you said John is part [TS]

00:25:56   of you know them wanting to do something on a much smaller scale where they can [TS]

00:25:59   have a bigger role or make a product that Apple would never make but I think [TS]

00:26:04   part of it also is that Apple has created this entire environment this [TS]

00:26:10   entire ecosystem of small start-ups being able to succeed and one person [TS]

00:26:14   shops be able to succeed on the App Store and and their people being in [TS]

00:26:20   charge of of the stuff for working on the frameworks are or working in this [TS]

00:26:24   photo released being surrounded by by other developers who are working in this [TS]

00:26:28   world that has to be very tempting for people who work inside of Apple to be [TS]

00:26:33   looking at all these other people making probably way more money than they make [TS]

00:26:37   their job at Apple and and doing really cool things and and making products from [TS]

00:26:41   scratch and having no boss you know to watch that from from the inside and not [TS]

00:26:49   be able to participate that has to be very tempting and I bet that pulls lot [TS]

00:26:54   of people out of Apple but isn't the converse is also true in the sense that [TS]

00:26:58   lets say I was a middle of the road [TS]

00:27:01   self employed iOS developer and I have a few apps or maybe just one app in the [TS]

00:27:08   App Store that's popular but not see it it's barely self-sustaining and an apple [TS]

00:27:13   says to me hey why don't you interview with us I can't imagine it would be like [TS]

00:27:18   no I really like being my own person and it's hard for me to fathom what it's [TS]

00:27:24   like to be self-employed because I've worked for the man my entire life but I [TS]

00:27:28   guess what I'm saying is if if I was not a superstar if I was just a regular Joe [TS]

00:27:34   who is trying to to do his own thing in the App Store and Apple said hey we've [TS]

00:27:38   seen what you do [TS]

00:27:39   we really liked it and we'd like you to interview you got to imagine I'd be [TS]

00:27:43   thrilled that that opportunity would be so moved to California that I do you [TS]

00:27:47   feel about it now [TS]

00:27:49   well and that's a very very fair point and didn't do the telecommuting thing [TS]

00:27:53   really and that's not a limiting factor you want to work for Apple you gotta [TS]

00:27:57   live in apple and living in apple and is expensive and maybe that's not where [TS]

00:28:00   your family has maybe that's not where you want to live and if you live out [TS]

00:28:03   there you have a lot of competition for that job or other people have a lot of [TS]

00:28:08   competition for employer like if you live out there already [TS]

00:28:13   then you can go work for any number of big tech companies plus an infinite [TS]

00:28:17   number of small ones and that's a really good point it really honestly is and I'm [TS]

00:28:23   hypothesizing I don't know what any of this is like but I guess what I'm saying [TS]

00:28:28   is as much as Apple is arguably pleading talent I i cant imagine that it's that [TS]

00:28:33   hard for them to find new talent that being said a revolving doors clearly not [TS]

00:28:38   a sustainable approach so you know it's it's it's an odd thing to talk to think [TS]

00:28:43   about its not just think it's not just the people who like go there are a [TS]

00:28:47   superstar do something awesome like you know design the UI for the original iOS [TS]

00:28:52   iPhone OS as it was then launched the original iPhone may be due on to other [TS]

00:28:56   projects and say right well now and I feel like I have all the all the towns [TS]

00:29:00   under my belt to do but it is basically whatever I want and I want to be the one [TS]

00:29:03   in charge you can only have so many chiefs you know I gotta be Indians [TS]

00:29:06   especially at a company like Apple going to limited number of things only a [TS]

00:29:10   limited number of people who is an h1b reference for native americans mark I [TS]

00:29:16   don't know for allowed to call them taking a turn so I get there is there's [TS]

00:29:23   that feeling that you want to like I want to be the guy who calls the shots [TS]

00:29:27   right and so that those people go off and do that but it's not just the people [TS]

00:29:31   who like when I came in at the bottom I learned some stuff and now I'm able to [TS]

00:29:33   go off on my own you know I like you said you can make more money my friends [TS]

00:29:36   are making these hit applications making tons more money than I am I can be a [TS]

00:29:40   part of my own business I could have you know unlimited income limited only by my [TS]

00:29:43   success not by like a review process and the cost of living raises and bonuses [TS]

00:29:46   and [TS]

00:29:47   like maybe stock options are lucky think about but run for transfer Leigh who was [TS]

00:29:53   one of the guys in charge of making presumably tons of money he didn't leave [TS]

00:29:57   Apple because he didn't get to be in charge of stuff i mean he wasn't Steve [TS]

00:30:03   Jobs but he was like two or three runs down there anyone you know very few [TS]

00:30:07   people have that level of power and he certainly wasn't you know I'm so bitter [TS]

00:30:12   that these people making money in the App Store he just wants to go and do [TS]

00:30:14   something different and no matter where you are [TS]

00:30:18   except maybe if you're the very very top of that pyramid if you have an itch to [TS]

00:30:22   go do something you can't do with an Apple if it's not something that Apple [TS]

00:30:26   wants to do and so he left to do whatever his secret startup is right now [TS]

00:30:30   he didn't retired like you know sit on the beach and you know county's money [TS]

00:30:35   and watch the waves come in he won he said he had an intellectual its and he [TS]

00:30:40   wanted to do something and so he left to do it and that's that's never gonna [TS]

00:30:46   happen in a company where you hire people who visit you wonder how many [TS]

00:30:50   people who could be the Steve Jobs of their own company but you want to work [TS]

00:30:55   for you and is anyone I kind of like get them as long as you possibly can and get [TS]

00:31:00   hit when you can out of them but I don't think Apple is better than they go off [TS]

00:31:03   and do things on their own if anything it's like it if we have an employee who [TS]

00:31:07   couldn't leave Appling go off and do better for themselves maybe we didn't [TS]

00:31:10   make the ride higher like that's you know that's that's the calculus there [TS]

00:31:14   they want all people who could do better outside of Apple they want to keep them [TS]

00:31:17   for as long as they can you know get the best workout of them I guess I think [TS]

00:31:22   it's interesting maybe to distinguish you know they were talking about how [TS]

00:31:27   Apple's having trouble getting talent but that seems to be mostly at the lower [TS]

00:31:31   levels of the company and the mid-level the company at the upper levels of the [TS]

00:31:34   company they seem to have for the most part pretty strong loyalty and pretty [TS]

00:31:40   long running people there and so maybe executives I mean can can a middle [TS]

00:31:47   manager Ken a middle manager go off and do their own thing [TS]

00:31:50   and be as successful as far as apple now has a certain point when you get high [TS]

00:31:53   enough I get a fair trial is an exception because he was an engineer [TS]

00:31:56   relation but there are people who just managers and if you're a long time and [TS]

00:32:00   you can be making lots of money maybe you don't care that you don't have to [TS]

00:32:03   tell the company when the company gets to do like there's room for middle [TS]

00:32:07   management everywhere [TS]

00:32:08   those people are gonna leave voluntarily yeah I guess that's true but I mean if [TS]

00:32:13   you look at other companies I think Apple is pretty good at retaining the [TS]

00:32:16   upper yeah people and so I guess the question is like you know the upper [TS]

00:32:21   people obviously like a frequent changes there would probably be way more [TS]

00:32:25   disruptive to the company then frequent changes at the lower levels of the [TS]

00:32:29   company are frequent changes at lower levels [TS]

00:32:34   really something that they should be worried about or should I just keep [TS]

00:32:38   trying to make the best stuff and and keep keeper day like the other people [TS]

00:32:42   and just kinda hope that a lot of people keep coming in fashion going out I think [TS]

00:32:47   they probably need to figure out some way to prolong the really smart people [TS]

00:32:53   stay by giving them some way to flex their independence and desire to do [TS]

00:32:58   something like it's it's totally against Apple's ammo to do you know the computer [TS]

00:33:02   called a concept cars or have something like Google Labs or 20% time those are [TS]

00:33:07   just not in Apple's culture but Apple culture so far in the other direction if [TS]

00:33:12   you can just give people some outlet within that structure to say you know [TS]

00:33:17   there is a slim chance however some like the lottery however slim that you may be [TS]

00:33:21   able to get us to do your crazy idea like I think of the original Xbox right [TS]

00:33:26   so he was jailed hard and maybe one other person had the idea to do a gaming [TS]

00:33:31   console and they were not like vice presidents when they came up with this [TS]

00:33:34   idea they were you know pretty much rank-and-file employees had been there [TS]

00:33:38   for a while but we're not not in a position to say we should make a game [TS]

00:33:42   console but they were able to take that idea and pick it up up up the ladder and [TS]

00:33:47   eventually convince Microsoft to make a game console and became a big part of [TS]

00:33:51   that process so good to be upgraded to go back and tell know they became you [TS]

00:33:55   know [TS]

00:33:55   bigwigs in charge of that project that can happen inside Microsoft released [TS]

00:34:00   happened once there are plenty of people in lower positions and Apple whose ideas [TS]

00:34:04   come to fruition and become a big type of thing but I'm not sure they go with [TS]

00:34:09   those ideas up the ladder so if you could just give make some sort of form [TS]

00:34:13   within the company for these independent people to come up with something that [TS]

00:34:16   it's possible to pick its way up and become the next big you know killer on [TS]

00:34:20   the story even if that only happens like once every 10 years or something I don't [TS]

00:34:24   know how not have a set of her work for Apple [TS]

00:34:26   just speculating on the outside but it but it might be like but I think that [TS]

00:34:31   type of bike 20% time however BS it is the Google these days and Google Labs [TS]

00:34:36   type things that ended pre Google+ days let's say before Google tried to become [TS]

00:34:40   a nightly focused that was a lot of the reason I think a lot of really smart [TS]

00:34:44   people stayed in Google because whether it actually hit anything actually came [TS]

00:34:48   to fruition not there was the idea that it was a bunch of smart people doing [TS]

00:34:51   lots of interesting things and all sorts of directions and why would you leave to [TS]

00:34:55   go anyplace else because here they give you a nice salary they feed you they [TS]

00:34:59   take care of you you have health insurance it's a nice job and you kind [TS]

00:35:03   of sort of get to do whatever you want to know is that thing whatever you want [TS]

00:35:05   to become the next gmail email came from night or the next Google Reader before [TS]

00:35:10   you know that an hour within the Google that environment within Google the pre [TS]

00:35:15   Google+ Google I think that served as a magnet to pull people into Google and to [TS]

00:35:21   keep people into Google may be the wrong kind of people that maybe not the kind [TS]

00:35:24   of people Apple ones but Apple needs just a little bit more than a half now [TS]

00:35:29   and I think that would help them keep people for I say six months longer but [TS]

00:35:36   yeah I think that's that's a wise thing I think I agree with everything you said [TS]

00:35:43   what what's hard to reconcile is if you look at the big players in california [TS]

00:35:48   and lemme hedge heavily by saying i'm an East Coast I've only been to California [TS]

00:35:52   handful of times my life and in fact at least half of them were for WWDC I don't [TS]

00:35:58   understand what the what the culture and when what [TS]

00:36:00   the technology sector looks like out there so I apologize for getting all the [TS]

00:36:04   following wrong email Marco but if you're if you're really bright engineer [TS]

00:36:09   and you're really passionate about writing code where are your options I [TS]

00:36:15   mean you can go to Microsoft but most people would perceive that is just [TS]

00:36:19   corporates to chill and you can go to Google which means your entire purpose [TS]

00:36:24   in life is to sell ads you can go to Yahoo which means you're the only bright [TS]

00:36:29   star in a cloudy sky which some people might like but is not my cup and see [TS]

00:36:34   where you can go to Apple and and at least Apple is devoted to pleasing [TS]

00:36:40   customers as opposed to telling customers they're out to please them in [TS]

00:36:45   actually in their eyeballs for advertisements that doesn't make sense [TS]

00:36:50   like I i I don't see why anyone else would be compelling with the exception [TS]

00:36:54   as you guys mentioned of startups but I don't know I guess I'm so risk adverse [TS]

00:36:58   that that doesn't seem that compelling to me either but that's one of the [TS]

00:37:02   reasons that I think the seniors I could have stayed as well as big especially if [TS]

00:37:05   you're a senior executive like it's the you know you want to sell sugar water [TS]

00:37:08   for the rest of your life becomes mean change the world like those those [TS]

00:37:11   executives really feel like they can have the biggest impact on the world by [TS]

00:37:16   being a regular good old middle manager in Apple then being a regular girl [TS]

00:37:22   minimal manager Coco large Mr Proctor and Gamble because they don't feel like [TS]

00:37:26   they're likely to go to parties and I work probably a very important person in [TS]

00:37:30   my body like that that there's also some angles that but it really is a chance [TS]

00:37:37   that same thing for engineers to do something that you think will have an [TS]

00:37:40   impact that used to be Microsoft that was certainly Google probably still is [TS]

00:37:45   cool but you could say you work for Google in that like you know job [TS]

00:37:49   satisfaction feeling like your job is important and can change the world [TS]

00:37:53   you're not just toiling away and I think Apple is just as much a corporate [TS]

00:37:56   student jobs Microsoft or any other player is a big corporation it's like [TS]

00:37:59   it's it is what it is it doesn't it's not a it's not crazily different than [TS]

00:38:03   any other large corporation like say valve or something where it's totally [TS]

00:38:07   outside their own expectations they have [TS]

00:38:08   managers and employees and teams and there may be a couple things that are [TS]

00:38:12   different about them is certainly at the top level the company behave very [TS]

00:38:15   differently in terms of focus on everything but two employees I don't [TS]

00:38:19   know maybe it's naive of me but I feel like Microsoft's purpose in life may be [TS]

00:38:26   up until recently but Microsoft's purpose in life was to please other [TS]

00:38:30   companies and Yahoo's purpose in life is to buy cool things and ruin them and [TS]

00:38:37   condemns purpose and Google's purpose [TS]

00:38:39   things and runs into that's true and Google's purpose in life is to sell [TS]

00:38:44   advertisements and and at least Apple's building cool stuff right i mean [TS]

00:38:49   corporates to job and I think John you're right it's apples more corporate [TS]

00:38:54   Studi than I care to admit but if you get to choose a corporate student job on [TS]

00:38:58   the left coast is Apple not the best option [TS]

00:39:03   it also depends on the kind of person you like is that the problem we were [TS]

00:39:07   talking about you know that Apple and its services right to say you are [TS]

00:39:10   someone who does something on the server side datacenters infrastructure type [TS]

00:39:15   software you know you don't want to go work for Apple because Apple has not [TS]

00:39:20   shown that it values those people that part of its business just wanted to work [TS]

00:39:24   doesn't want to hear about it and like this [TS]

00:39:26   the smartest best service i'd people are not going to go when they don't want to [TS]

00:39:30   work at Apple because they want to be valued if they if they go working Google [TS]

00:39:33   they're practically god's you get to work on like you know GFS version 3 over [TS]

00:39:37   to our spanner whenever these are things like those are like serious business [TS]

00:39:42   like that's the whole company right but Apple you're just like they don't want [TS]

00:39:46   to hear your know who you are anything about you know we have here is that [TS]

00:39:50   you're screwing up and just make it like the people who get the Gloria I made the [TS]

00:39:54   iPhone interface so I'm so I am excuse of hardware I work on the opera is [TS]

00:39:57   nobody's getting any glory or any claim or any recognition putting anything in [TS]

00:40:03   open source a contributing anything it was working on service I did Apple [TS]

00:40:06   forget it so Apple I think cannot hire those people we're talking about like oh [TS]

00:40:10   if you're if you're a client-side program or as your designer yeah [TS]

00:40:14   designers wanna go to Apple client-side native app people want to go to Apple [TS]

00:40:19   but if you're a web developer services [TS]

00:40:22   person you don't want to go to a problem that's not entirely true I i think [TS]

00:40:27   that's mostly true but if you happen to be one of the six people on the planet [TS]

00:40:32   that knows how to do web objects I think you can think of all the other side they [TS]

00:40:37   countered at Sequoia programmers and when you're right you're right but I [TS]

00:40:41   think that the six people that do web objects in the world and in a quaint of [TS]

00:40:46   a friend of a friend of a friend does web objects in actually lives nearby to [TS]

00:40:51   where I live and he works for Apple because you know or at least that's my [TS]

00:40:57   understanding I could be totally wrong but my point is if you're if you do one [TS]

00:41:02   of the things that Apple doesn't nobody else does like web objects you can pay [TS]

00:41:07   your own way that's why Apple is having trouble hiring the people they need to [TS]

00:41:12   make their service and stuff better because hiring a bunch of web objects [TS]

00:41:15   programmers is not going to help them make their stuff better right they want [TS]

00:41:18   the people who are taking the jobs elsewhere gonna come for the next big [TS]

00:41:21   thing early spring have up-to-date with like 10 years ago decker I hand out [TS]

00:41:25   there so far behind so out in the weeds on this they just want to get good [TS]

00:41:30   service i'd people to do their stuff and it's and I bet like it's not just that [TS]

00:41:35   maybe they can get the good service I V 12 good serviceable get there on the go [TS]

00:41:38   like the first thing they do is like we got to get rid of this web objects crap [TS]

00:41:42   what the hell you guys doing and they'll find out like the culture is like no [TS]

00:41:45   obvious who runs the iTunes store that sells twenty million songs every three [TS]

00:41:50   seconds and you can't break it and you know you're not gonna rewrite it [TS]

00:41:53   something else just just help us get better but don't change anything like [TS]

00:41:57   that type of attitude that is totally you know talk about corporate jobs like [TS]

00:42:01   that's that's the way it is I became in their realities that have to be dealt [TS]

00:42:05   with you can't come anything like the Apple Store of that should not be [TS]

00:42:08   written that way you just gotta get rid of it replace it with something else [TS]

00:42:11   that's not a big you know what's with the payoffs are willing to risk [TS]

00:42:15   destroying our entire you know multi billion transaction business to from [TS]

00:42:20   what's the benefit of the end of that we differ on by WWF Seattle and give you a [TS]

00:42:24   pass authority you'll be able to get so hard to sell this type projects right [TS]

00:42:28   people go there and like realize that they're not going to change anything and [TS]

00:42:34   then leaving [TS]

00:42:35   Java Facebook and that's true until you have somebody like the verge writing an [TS]

00:42:39   article about how crummy iCloud is that's not their service I guess not [TS]

00:42:45   no no let's we'll get to that in a minute before that let me give our [TS]

00:42:49   sponsor break here this episode is once again sponsored by Squarespace [TS]

00:42:54   Squarespace is just an awesome way to make a website and have hosted and [TS]

00:42:59   designed and managed for you it is fantastic it's a website hosting [TS]

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00:43:32   it out that's totally Squarespace site with minimal hacking involved and if you [TS]

00:43:38   don't wanna miss the hacking you don't have to you can just go there and sign [TS]

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00:43:46   low needs an awesome I really can't can't overstate this enough hosting [TS]

00:43:54   websites where space is just so ridiculously easy it's where I tell [TS]

00:43:57   everybody in my life who asked me over how do I make a site where should I [TS]

00:44:01   whose could you help me with this I say yes I can help you I will tell you to go [TS]

00:44:05   to Squarespace and that's it [TS]

00:44:06   go there that's it and it's like it's like telling people who want tech [TS]

00:44:10   support I tell them to get a Mac cuz you know you can given that directive and [TS]

00:44:15   they won't come back to you call you every five minutes with some problem [TS]

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00:44:38   plan for a $10 a month you can you can even sell stuff you can do commerce I [TS]

00:44:41   can't I can't even fit everything they do and 21 outbreak [TS]

00:44:45   believe me is where space is great you can host any kind of say you want a [TS]

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00:45:00   today and thanks to our space for supporting us once again so is already [TS]

00:45:04   on the verge called why does an iCloud just work and it's getting a lot of [TS]

00:45:09   attention and I think this is worth a little bit of discussion here and there [TS]

00:45:13   was a great follow-up from Brent Simmons that will get 24 in a little bit but [TS]

00:45:18   what do you think about this article like it basically cites a lot of a lot [TS]

00:45:23   of users and developers visibly all saying like we tried to build iCloud [TS]

00:45:28   sync into our apps and it just didn't work and we had to cancel it [TS]

00:45:31   problem I had with it was very few of the developers were named and I don't [TS]

00:45:36   blame them because if it were me I wouldn't want to be named I have [TS]

00:45:39   tremendous respect for I think Pasco from black pixel was named Justin [TS]

00:45:46   Williams was named and I have tremendous respect for those who were named but I [TS]

00:45:51   don't think the the message was unfair or invalid everything I've ever heard [TS]

00:45:57   from both prominent people whom I follow on Twitter for example and even friends [TS]

00:46:02   whom do this locally or who did this ugly lol yeah I know you saw that [TS]

00:46:09   feedback to me anyway the people who I know they do this locally everyone is [TS]

00:46:14   universally said it's it's crap it's in the same way that auto layout is either [TS]

00:46:19   crap or so impossibly difficult to get right that it's effectively crap it's [TS]

00:46:25   all crap at it really is but I mean so at what point is this wheel speaking up [TS]

00:46:34   for Apple to really fix it and can they fix it I know Johnny talked at length [TS]

00:46:37   about how you're skeptical whether they can get this is a tradition that's why I [TS]

00:46:41   said that I cloud core data thing and it specifically what we're talking about [TS]

00:46:44   here is it's not so much the service I PeopleSmart service I people have danced [TS]

00:46:49   on the server side stuff being flaky or whatever but as far as I can tell from [TS]

00:46:55   listening to all the same developers and talking to someone [TS]

00:46:57   in person and reading all different articles on their blogs it's a it's a [TS]

00:47:01   design problem it's it's you know high-level box level design and also an [TS]

00:47:06   API design problem like with the high level designers like is there a way to [TS]

00:47:10   have seventeen different devices with just with a bunch of you know related [TS]

00:47:14   objects stored in local databases and get them all to sing together without [TS]

00:47:19   having without doing like what Google does but just like ok well google has [TS]

00:47:22   your mail your emails on their servers and that is the one source of truth in [TS]

00:47:27   the entire world and when you put up in your web browser not like synchronizing [TS]

00:47:31   the state on your web browser that thing is just like this one central source of [TS]

00:47:35   truth everywhere and everyone synchronized with that in all their [TS]

00:47:37   actions like modified this is a bunch of local things to modifications and they [TS]

00:47:41   all try to synchronize with each other later sort of in a peer-to-peer type [TS]

00:47:44   fashion and I'm not sure that conceptually and algorithmically they [TS]

00:47:49   worked out how that's supposed to work for arbitrary object models because your [TS]

00:47:54   car did you make up your own object model and make your own relations [TS]

00:47:57   between things and you know like it's it's not it's not a fixed schema time in [TS]

00:48:02   its its not skinless but it's not like they don't know how your application [TS]

00:48:06   works at trying to make a general-purpose system for any sort of [TS]

00:48:08   you know tree of objects that you can modify any sort of way and that later go [TS]

00:48:15   to another thing that has its own tree of objects in a different state modify [TS]

00:48:19   that one and then have to reconcile themselves with each other and have that [TS]

00:48:22   actually work like sometimes you don't know what's supposed to happen so that's [TS]

00:48:26   the first promised a compromise looks like the API design that's on top of [TS]

00:48:29   this conceptual thing doesn't give the developers nice ways to do the things [TS]

00:48:34   they want because it probably so complicate like one of the ones they put [TS]

00:48:37   their arms like what someone you know takes my app starts doing stuff with it [TS]

00:48:41   builds you know essentially built an object model for their data and then [TS]

00:48:44   they signed iCloud and and their icon account they had previously saw this [TS]

00:48:48   application elsewhere and they had a bunch of big data from from there how do [TS]

00:48:53   I reconcile like to erase everything I have replaced it with what's version of [TS]

00:48:58   this thing I try to merge attitude not related at all like it is just a [TS]

00:49:03   nightmarish type problem and I think conceptually like ignore bugs and North [TS]

00:49:07   are available nor service speed ignore visibility of anything I just think [TS]

00:49:11   conceptually they don't have something that is nailed down that will work under [TS]

00:49:16   percent of the time in the layer on top of that oh you know there are bugs and [TS]

00:49:21   their API is that there's no hope for me to say hey tell me when this thing [TS]

00:49:24   changes and sometimes gets corrupted it gets wedged and you can't tell what's [TS]

00:49:28   wrong cause I have no API to query is a thing available is it not available as [TS]

00:49:31   new data comment as did not commit like it's just failure on top of failure on [TS]

00:49:36   top of failure is not just one thing so that's why I think like get the best [TS]

00:49:40   service I've people the world's not gonna save the assistance of seven of [TS]

00:49:43   the layers of things that have gone wrong with this specifically and I think [TS]

00:49:47   the conceptually simpler ones like the key-value storage and document storage [TS]

00:49:50   because that the sound design and they're like well last update when so I [TS]

00:49:56   can keep you think you values that something when is it something a little [TS]

00:49:58   more specific document it's very simple conceptual model then they can put an [TS]

00:50:03   implication of that which may or may not have a few bucks but it's okay and [TS]

00:50:06   there's enough visibility into and you get stuff done like we were all [TS]

00:50:10   developers you know what it's like when you start programming something and you [TS]

00:50:13   didn't think it through conceptually to begin with there is no amount of typing [TS]

00:50:16   you can do after that to make it better you have to just go away like what the [TS]

00:50:19   hell am I doing here this is never gonna work when I haven't even started through [TS]

00:50:23   yet I can't just start blindly typing in putting in weird cases and try to make [TS]

00:50:27   this work and that's a situation I think they're in with iCloud korda yeah and I [TS]

00:50:31   think from what I've heard in front of seen from the developers I I haven't [TS]

00:50:36   done much like loud I should get up front I the only thing I don't like [TS]

00:50:38   Cloud was a very basic feature of syncing your position and currently read [TS]

00:50:43   article in the magazine which which works sometimes [TS]

00:50:47   value because it's way easier and literally just storing like answering [TS]

00:50:54   article positions in the article at small and I'm sorry I want you to tell [TS]

00:50:59   me what article you currently reading that's it but you know that the main [TS]

00:51:05   concerns I've heard have been what you said that the core data saying we should [TS]

00:51:09   I have this whole database of objects in my app and in when I was unveiled I [TS]

00:51:16   believe steve Jobs was was doing this part of the presentation [TS]

00:51:19   he even said like and it works like or did you just you know you guys think it [TS]

00:51:24   just works I never would think that kind of huge applause because he was really [TS]

00:51:33   really cuz that's a really hard problem with that sexy and so you know we work [TS]

00:51:42   we were promised that this would work and so developers Core Data Sync that [TS]

00:51:47   I've always heard has been a complete disaster but I think that any key-value [TS]

00:51:52   store is fine everything documents I don't know a lot of developers who've [TS]

00:51:55   used to document model because I recently everybody just added a quitar [TS]

00:51:58   your core data if they could well there are there enough things to do not intend [TS]

00:52:03   to be to be fair to be good to be unfair to the server side people like back in [TS]

00:52:07   the iOS 5 days like almost nothing worked right like evaluate obviously the [TS]

00:52:11   simplest and thats has mostly on and document storage mostly work but had [TS]

00:52:16   some kind of nine bugs and quirks in that can be a little bit weird so all [TS]

00:52:20   these things are slated to begin with but is just like the reason the reason [TS]

00:52:23   is coming to head now is because I write these things that had time to still [TS]

00:52:26   iCloud didn't come out three months ago right this dark cloud is not brand [TS]

00:52:30   spanking new all these API's like we gave them like the one major version of [TS]

00:52:34   iOS to mature the one major version that goes into mature and now they like [TS]

00:52:39   devalue storage and documents seem to be following the typical path of Apple [TS]

00:52:42   API's and core data is not like getting better at the biggest problem I have [TS]

00:52:50   heard that the court is part is you know the most unreliable part of of the [TS]

00:52:54   iCloud sync stuff but I think the much bigger problem with you [TS]

00:52:58   breezed past little bit ago is that everything is tied to the Apple iTV is [TS]

00:53:03   currently signed in and that people sign out of Apple IDs in two different Apple [TS]

00:53:08   IDs on their devices fairly frequently you know not everyone doing every day [TS]

00:53:14   but there's a good number of people who do it regularly [TS]

00:53:17   yasser that they have APIC like oh and you're gonna keep in mind that when you [TS]

00:53:22   launch you may not be in the same app ideas when you're stuck with me then you [TS]

00:53:25   may get his car back that means they changed Apple IDs and like they've made [TS]

00:53:28   their where this gonna happen but they do I kinda shoving her into the car [TS]

00:53:31   of the programming site and you'll figure out what to do when that happens [TS]

00:53:34   like what am I supposed to do you know in some cases like all the pre-existing [TS]

00:53:39   data gets deleted like there was in your local directory like it you know I'm [TS]

00:53:42   what if I hadn't synced bad and like it's gone now like you don't have it [TS]

00:53:47   it's like it's like you know throwing an exception if you can't you know the [TS]

00:53:50   discus for something and I'll catch except when you gonna do about delete [TS]

00:53:54   stuff but sometimes you can't there's no saying recovery or there's nothing like [TS]

00:54:01   the case absolutely not like like all we have a call doctor when they change [TS]

00:54:04   things and and will automatically count all the old and you're ready to go again [TS]

00:54:07   on my way to second like from you should check like what if you want to do [TS]

00:54:12   something different with you I tell people this is happening that they're [TS]

00:54:14   gonna end up deleting all the local data and like I just don't think it's been [TS]

00:54:19   thought through this is all I called data like with the frustration over [TS]

00:54:23   jackals like we talked to happen they don't tell scarce and like their WBC [TS]

00:54:30   they're gonna come out with like you know the API for one of the apology [TS]

00:54:33   mouse from New York we're sorry for the puck luck on your children and your [TS]

00:54:39   chair there's a same database thinking you know like that come out of it's kind [TS]

00:54:44   it's kind of a decision gives me some hope you like MobileMe was a disaster [TS]

00:54:47   and had to change the name you get iCloud but they have had at least one [TS]

00:54:50   instance where they had something that was a disaster and they cannot with a [TS]

00:54:54   much better awesome version of it didn't change the name that's file fault 4501 [TS]

00:54:59   was just a mess and 512 kept the same name but is totally unrelated other name [TS]

00:55:05   and it did the same function and is awesome so far but two is awesome [TS]

00:55:08   following this terrible so if I cloud core data syncing at this is considered [TS]

00:55:12   a soft like something else comes out that's different and the same as this [TS]

00:55:16   new thing just forget about the whole thing they can still call it like latkas [TS]

00:55:18   iCloud is an umbrella term that already covers on 10 different things and why [TS]

00:55:22   not just keep changing out the scope is like and they have the advantage of not [TS]

00:55:26   having this user base like wait what about all the successful applications [TS]

00:55:30   built on a club in CoreData sinking they'll have to rewrite know there are [TS]

00:55:33   many don't work and I think you're right though [TS]

00:55:37   conceptually this is a problem like what it like the biggest problem being [TS]

00:55:44   usually that you know people who sign in and out of different Apple IDs what is [TS]

00:55:48   the app supposed to do about that like I don't think that's the kind of thing [TS]

00:55:51   that could necessarily be fixed with a revision to the API or a new service ID [TS]

00:55:57   back end because it's like like member like a year ago it was a whole debate [TS]

00:56:00   about the guy who's iPhone alarm went off in the symphony and and the whole it [TS]

00:56:05   was the whole thing we know what should the behavior of the of the alarm be with [TS]

00:56:09   overriding the sound switch and back then about it and you know my theory was [TS]

00:56:15   you know this is a hard problem because you've told the phone [TS]

00:56:20   wake me up at this time no matter what and you've also told the phone don't [TS]

00:56:24   make noise right now and so you've given these conflicting directives I was a [TS]

00:56:28   problem with how 9002 conflicting directives and no matter what choice you [TS]

00:56:35   make it going to anger some some portion of the user base that's non-trivial and [TS]

00:56:38   and so it's kind of that's kind of a problem with the user at that point well [TS]

00:56:42   with this you know what I cloud syncing [TS]

00:56:45   you've made the system where your data is tied to the to whatever Apple idea [TS]

00:56:52   signed in in all your apps like that's your latest tied to that and then but a [TS]

00:56:57   lot of people have different Apple IDs some people like a couple will share [TS]

00:57:00   when Apple IDs they don't pay for apps twice to be in both of their phones [TS]

00:57:04   some people have different Apple idea for their for being a developer versus [TS]

00:57:07   being a consumer like there's lots of reasons why people have different Apple [TS]

00:57:11   IDs and an apple does not make it easy to to merge them or switch them or [TS]

00:57:16   anything like that so it's a very common thing and you know if your app has its [TS]

00:57:21   own sync platform then it has some kind of concept of being logged in to that [TS]

00:57:27   and so if you change your Apple I D [TS]

00:57:29   system wide to go use a certain app or do a certain thing and a new launch you [TS]

00:57:35   know my note taking app whatever ext cloud plus then [TS]

00:57:40   then you know i i don't lose that sink Association from rapidly because I'm [TS]

00:57:47   using my own custom sync thing that you've logged into and if you actually [TS]

00:57:49   go into my appt and want to sync with a different thing you have like going to [TS]

00:57:55   my apt and logged out explicitly of that account and presumably that stuff is all [TS]

00:57:59   storage server side and then you can log into something else like it it's a [TS]

00:58:02   deliberate user action whereas if you're using iCloud syncing users might not [TS]

00:58:07   realize they probably almost never do realize that if they log out system [TS]

00:58:12   modify cloud then the data in XYZ is gonna be blown away and the worst part [TS]

00:58:17   is that it that they may be blown away and that they may never have made it to [TS]

00:58:21   any other device [TS]

00:58:22   never been sick rises actually got like the app is any way to tell that well I [TS]

00:58:28   mean some of these things you get to sleep at like say it's a the existing [TS]

00:58:31   API strongly bug free and like and you got these callbacks and you were given [TS]

00:58:36   an obligate add new API's like oh we're about to change rapidly may be there to [TS]

00:58:39   have this you have an opportunity to save the stuff off the side of whatever [TS]

00:58:42   you still end up in situations where like what if I do these three changes [TS]

00:58:46   this device to these four changes not divisive completing before changes not [TS]

00:58:49   device to conflicting more or less simultaneously had turned these two on [TS]

00:58:52   then turn those too often turn the third one back on like to try to figure out [TS]

00:58:56   what the state should allow modifications to continue what about [TS]

00:58:59   when I turn this to backup Mike reconciling is all without a single [TS]

00:59:03   central source of truth like Gmail where the just everyone communicated to the [TS]

00:59:08   server and model makes a lot of kids they're allowing you to make the local [TS]

00:59:11   modifications in trying to resolve that into it like a a replaceable transaction [TS]

00:59:15   log their results in some sort of consistent thing you can make something [TS]

00:59:18   that's like provably like you it will it will have a deterministic consistent [TS]

00:59:22   result but the odds that being the result being what the users expected it [TS]

00:59:26   to be [TS]

00:59:27   are probably zero because the users will inevitably issue a series of conflicting [TS]

00:59:31   instructions and when I think synchronized no matter what the stuff [TS]

00:59:35   packs it's sometimes it's not going to be what they wanted because they gave [TS]

00:59:39   conflicting instructions there is actually no right answer so that's [TS]

00:59:42   something like the model they're using for a coordinated you know arbitrary [TS]

00:59:46   object graph sinking is never even if it's a hundred percent bug-free is never [TS]

00:59:51   going to to look to users like them [TS]

00:59:53   magical hey everything just works because it's you know that they will [TS]

00:59:58   they will issue conflicting demands with their actions on the original devices in [TS]

01:00:02   Windows devices synchronized even assuming zero bugs and perfect [TS]

01:00:05   performance they're going to be sad that they're going up quote-unquote losing [TS]

01:00:09   data even if you were to say let me say you not to lose data because here's how [TS]

01:00:14   we reconcile things and you see these series of collecting fans can only do [TS]

01:00:17   one thing you can have this and have that well but I want the other thing [TS]

01:00:21   actually I really want to merge of those too but with me manually picking like it [TS]

01:00:26   can't know that you know so that's that's never going to make people happy [TS]

01:00:30   and i cant im not sure what this solution there is except for maybe [TS]

01:00:34   having I mean you can't do it but Google does you can't have every single changed [TS]

01:00:39   your application sending commands up to a server [TS]

01:00:42   you know i mean Google+ gmail too but I think like they've the reason I think [TS]

01:00:49   it's because they have a defined data model that is not as complicated and you [TS]

01:00:53   know its application but with messages and labels stop its not arbitrarily [TS]

01:00:59   structured interrelated data objects and Objective C that you get the right [TS]

01:01:03   yourself and this is a good segue to the brink Simmons response article did you [TS]

01:01:09   read this yet it's called why developers shouldn't use iCloud sync even if it [TS]

01:01:13   worked I read it as well and then I was gonna bring this up in as well because [TS]

01:01:20   and forgive me for a kind of interrupting your tangent but one of the [TS]

01:01:27   things that I find very interesting about iCloud is that Aaron and I shane [TS]

01:01:30   is to share the same Apple store I D so we can share the same apps and so on and [TS]

01:01:37   so forth we have different iCloud ID's and if we had say a shared grocery list [TS]

01:01:43   we can't share grocery list if we're using Eichler that app is using iCloud [TS]

01:01:49   the background in Brent talks a lot about this [TS]

01:01:53   iCloud is very personal and not very social and I hate social because that's [TS]

01:01:57   about as [TS]

01:01:58   as big a buzz word is brand but but nonetheless I feel like there's some [TS]

01:02:03   amount of truth to that and brand Brent brings this up in our presume market [TS]

01:02:06   you're about to recap what some of the other things he said that's one of them [TS]

01:02:11   I mean it's exactly true and and and if I were to write I've thought about [TS]

01:02:18   writing a a very very simple shared list keeping appt so that area and I can [TS]

01:02:25   share grocery list are packing list or eighty Home Depot or Lowes list but I [TS]

01:02:30   can use iCloud for that because we can't share it because we're on different I [TS]

01:02:33   cloudy now actually is wonder list which I'm not a tremendous fan of but it does [TS]

01:02:40   the job a lot of people I know use Google Docs for that and we use Google [TS]

01:02:45   counter to share counters and we do use Google counters one of the reasons we do [TS]

01:02:49   that is because I don't think it's been caught up in this kind of deep level but [TS]

01:02:54   the reality is that we never worried about Google document saying in sync we [TS]

01:02:59   never worried about Google Calendar staying in sync with our various devices [TS]

01:03:02   because we always know when we're making changes we are directly manipulating the [TS]

01:03:05   state of something on a survey and where and it's just it's always in sync you [TS]

01:03:08   know like it's never it's never not in sync because there's no it's not like we [TS]

01:03:13   don't use any offline modes right the downside of course is that we can [TS]

01:03:17   actually make modifications to our calendar for offline but thus far that [TS]

01:03:21   has not come up not only doesn't for that scenario is going to be less and [TS]

01:03:26   less likely to like that [TS]

01:03:28   conceptual simplicity of how does how does document sharing with a Google [TS]

01:03:33   document work live in real-time always synchronize that's how it works and I [TS]

01:03:38   like and you just you just don't think about it and just like that model very [TS]

01:03:43   difficult to do well and bug free and fast and all that stuff but conceptually [TS]

01:03:47   it's understandable to people and they they come to trust it whereas no I'm not [TS]

01:03:52   even developers of applications can have any idea how things are working even 10 [TS]

01:03:56   bucks and I like that the bugs as a couple things I read about iCloud [TS]

01:04:01   courted a stop some of it [TS]

01:04:02   unpublished as yet hopefully it will be published some point in the future [TS]

01:04:05   somewhere [TS]

01:04:06   the worst part of any of these type of things when you add on top of all the [TS]

01:04:10   stuff we talked about the type of bugs where there's nothing you can do to help [TS]

01:04:16   your user there's nothing like Apple can do to help your user just like things [TS]

01:04:20   get wedged in a way that that even a developer can be expected to figure out [TS]

01:04:24   on their own let alone individual user and that's what they're talking about [TS]

01:04:26   the verge articles like a support time suck because sometimes things just get [TS]

01:04:30   the wedged in don't work and there's no visibility of that does not even [TS]

01:04:34   visibility to the developer and less like a cessation to machine guns are [TS]

01:04:38   digging through like you know supposedly hidden directories containing big binary [TS]

01:04:42   blobs and daemon processes that are hung they're not putting the binary blob in [TS]

01:04:46   the right place and just like is the worst nightmare of trying to debug Elise [TS]

01:04:50   when you're debugging service I stopped at least you have access to the server [TS]

01:04:53   and you can see what's going on there this is like the worst of all possible [TS]

01:04:55   worlds like every single person literally does have their own little [TS]

01:04:59   server on their local machine there on the latest or in their machine and you [TS]

01:05:03   can't see any of that and talk about the services you also can't see all of which [TS]

01:05:07   have bugs none of which code you wrote you don't even have the source code [TS]

01:05:09   foreign and good luck W that so I'm sorry interrupted you you were gonna [TS]

01:05:16   bring up the social aspect and you said your gonna bring up something else [TS]

01:05:19   yeah and the other thing is that you know brian says you know keep in mind [TS]

01:05:23   that iCloud is Apple only he says you may think you'll never want an Android a [TS]

01:05:28   browser-based version of your app but are you sure really well yeah I'm pretty [TS]

01:05:36   sure but but now I think you know this is a very good point that you know if [TS]

01:05:44   you're if you're in the iCloud platform business if your app realizing that then [TS]

01:05:49   sure you know that's fine if today you only have an iOS platform but if you [TS]

01:05:56   really invest heavily in that you have to be really sure that your only ever [TS]

01:05:59   going to have an iOS platform and I don't think that's that's a very safe [TS]

01:06:03   assumption for a lot of things these days [TS]

01:06:05   best but the best part was when he brought what about a Mac App is not so [TS]

01:06:08   to the Mac App Store cuz you can use iCloud there either [TS]

01:06:11   forgotten about those forget about member was like oh well they're putting [TS]

01:06:15   iCloud only in the Mac App Store that'll be like that's to lure you into the Mac [TS]

01:06:18   App Store now it's like three like another repulsed air it's the opposite [TS]

01:06:22   effect it's like saying well I really don't wanna be a Mac App Store but only [TS]

01:06:27   the Mac App Store apps that uses awesome new iCloud AP I guess it is kinda like [TS]

01:06:35   it so its own credibility if you choose iCloud not only you just using Apple's [TS]

01:06:39   platform but you choosing also their sales channels like irrevocably yeah [TS]

01:06:43   exactly and so i think you know obviously I was making iOS app euro we [TS]

01:06:49   stuck in there and and that's fine but I just think it's unwise to limit yourself [TS]

01:06:55   necessarily like it's it's one thing to say i'm only going to have an iOS app [TS]

01:06:59   right now but it's a whole thing to say I will never have anything but an iOS [TS]

01:07:04   and Mac App Store app like that that's a very very limiting thing and changes of [TS]

01:07:09   policy decisions they could say hey guess what we have a Web API with a [TS]

01:07:13   JavaScript library now you can use iCloud API's from your web app that you [TS]

01:07:16   write yourself that would change a lot i mean it if Apple ever open up to two [TS]

01:07:20   service cider or website interaction that would open up tremendously but I [TS]

01:07:24   don't think they ever will understand the word no and there's no immediately [TS]

01:07:31   obvious benefit to them to do that and and so I don't I don't think they will I [TS]

01:07:34   think that would be a big giveaway [TS]

01:07:36   you know they wanted they want to lock down to their devices in their stores [TS]

01:07:39   and you know part of its just for control and part of it so they can make [TS]

01:07:43   sure that nobody goes crazy and abuses it through the API's and everything but [TS]

01:07:46   you know whatever the reason I don't think that's ever gonna happen so I [TS]

01:07:51   think it's you know it also points out that for most apps needs before sinking [TS]

01:07:57   it really isn't that hard to write your own server and to run your own server [TS]

01:08:00   and it really isn't that expensive and it really isn't that complicated and you [TS]

01:08:05   know you can you can design server side stuff to make it to make your life [TS]

01:08:09   really easy in in two key ways you can make it really cheap to run in scale and [TS]

01:08:14   low needs and you can design the absurd that if the server is not reachable the [TS]

01:08:19   apt is still useful you know and obviously depending on what you're doing [TS]

01:08:23   with the server [TS]

01:08:24   how useful it can be will vary but like with Instapaper it was really easy for [TS]

01:08:29   me to do this because Instapaper is made to be used offline so if the server is [TS]

01:08:34   not reachable the app things it's offline it was still works just fine he [TS]

01:08:40   just can't load new stuff into it but it still works everything to use up and [TS]

01:08:43   once it gets can actually get work so like Instapaper server goes down for an [TS]

01:08:48   hour which is a pretty major downtime for a web thing I'll hear about it from [TS]

01:08:53   a few people but not nearly as many as you would think because everyone else is [TS]

01:08:59   still using the app just fine although there is a big advantage to these type [TS]

01:09:03   of one Apple wants to happen this does happen a lot where like it easy for you [TS]

01:09:09   to talk about it as you have service I didn't even experience but what if you [TS]

01:09:11   just a client's I got like maybe you just want someone to take care of that [TS]

01:09:14   other stuff for you and I mean those type of API's allow developers who would [TS]

01:09:20   otherwise not be able to make these type of products to make them or would [TS]

01:09:24   otherwise need more people you know some examples might be okay so Lauren Berger [TS]

01:09:28   genius programmer great app designer but he is Gabe said he doesn't wanna write [TS]

01:09:32   that crap and if it works [TS]

01:09:33   kind of sort of didn't work when he launches game but you know like if it [TS]

01:09:36   eventually sort of works he doesn't have to do matchmaking he doesn't have to do [TS]

01:09:40   accounts at the moment he gets to just write the game part you with newsstand [TS]

01:09:44   mostly monetary things get the money and everything is like you couldn't have [TS]

01:09:48   done that but hey you know you can make an application the descriptions that [TS]

01:09:53   does something that native application wouldn't do by using Apple services [TS]

01:09:56   right now you did the web thing yourself anyway because of course you can but [TS]

01:09:59   that's just an extension of the App Store model where maybe don't wanna run [TS]

01:10:04   the store you don't want to figure out how to sell things to people and getting [TS]

01:10:08   the downloads are hosted do other stuff will take over that for you and Apple [TS]

01:10:11   wants to take over all those things and provide these infrastructure services [TS]

01:10:16   and that's all great when the services actually work and are things that people [TS]

01:10:23   want done and I think I cloud is is all those things except for the working part [TS]

01:10:29   and may be right up to the part where like if you design your own like if you [TS]

01:10:33   design your own service to synchronize your stuff you make design something [TS]

01:10:36   like a value story [TS]

01:10:37   and you might design something like I clubs documents in the clouds and you [TS]

01:10:40   might decide something like you know Game Center whatever those functions you [TS]

01:10:44   can imagine what would you to undertake on your own to say you know what I need [TS]

01:10:48   to provide arbitrary server-side synchronization of coordinated across [TS]

01:10:51   multiple devices I don't think individual developer would would buy [TS]

01:10:56   that off they would think of something simpler like the simple know what is [TS]

01:10:58   that when the simple notice oversight baby I like when third parties who [TS]

01:11:02   created these services they've looked more like traditional more like modern [TS]

01:11:08   web services and less like what I call for data thing with because they can't [TS]

01:11:14   do that they can have little demons running on everyone's machines they [TS]

01:11:17   can't they can make a diamond processing I was that does all this stuff like they [TS]

01:11:20   would be forced to do something that is it to be endpoint that their [TS]

01:11:25   applications talk to you know me like they wouldn't be able to do all this [TS]

01:11:28   crazy stuff that Apple did i think im just bit off more than it could chew in [TS]

01:11:32   this case I mean this is kind of a problem as we discussed two episodes ago [TS]

01:11:36   or last episode about I clouds model to the users that it it is the certain [TS]

01:11:43   simplification of hiding the file system and and and doing these things but still [TS]

01:11:46   limited I mean this is kind of like it sounds like Apple bit off more than they [TS]

01:11:51   can chew with a lot of parts of iCloud not just like oh it doesn't work [TS]

01:11:55   reliably but like this was a bad idea [TS]

01:12:00   wanna know if it was a bad idea but I just don't know if it's if it's been [TS]

01:12:05   executed well and in when John when you were talking minute ago I feel to some [TS]

01:12:10   degree you're describing me in that I have experienced and I have service and [TS]

01:12:15   experience but the thing is I've server-side experience in in Microsoft [TS]

01:12:19   technologies which are expensive and if I was to write say a grocery shopping [TS]

01:12:24   list that I could share between multiple people like Aaron and myself what are my [TS]

01:12:29   options I can't use iCloud because it's tied to a single iCloud I D so what am I [TS]

01:12:35   gonna do I could do you like parole and be like John or I could you PHP and be [TS]

01:12:40   like Marco I could do Python and B [TS]

01:12:43   you know what terrible according to you too I could do real well you know me I [TS]

01:12:49   don't know but but if I was going to learn something else for the web backend [TS]

01:12:52   stuff I would learn Python you can email Marco but the point I'm driving it is [TS]

01:12:56   what do i do and interestingly and I think brent talked about this in a [TS]

01:13:00   different post maybe I would go to a sure and maybe I would do and and that [TS]

01:13:05   doesn't necessitate using C sharp St using.net but from what I've gathered [TS]

01:13:10   having never played with this as yours are pretty pretty decent way to get some [TS]

01:13:15   sort of quick server-side or cloud database without too much effort with it [TS]

01:13:21   with an Iowa CPI and that's just not a place I don't think that's position [TS]

01:13:26   Apple wants themselves to be in it maybe they don't care I don't know what [TS]

01:13:29   they're doing and I've seen people do like this is that this is a low-tech [TS]

01:13:33   solution to like client-side people who don't wanna write big service ID service [TS]

01:13:37   but they know they need one and the like are by just like the grocery list like [TS]

01:13:40   like Dropbox Dropbox was something like what am I just like shavon JSON files [TS]

01:13:47   onto s3 and have the thing put down and Ike reconcile it because it's just a [TS]

01:13:52   grocery list how I possibly could go wrong worst-case scenario I get superset [TS]

01:13:56   of a bunch of changes in this an extra items that you don't want I can [TS]

01:13:58   duplicate you know like when you have a confined problem domain you can get away [TS]

01:14:02   with just the most ridiculous simple possible solutions s3 would be enough I [TS]

01:14:08   into something something other something not the mind of I something not the [TS]

01:14:12   device was something in this third place that's always available and i dont wanna [TS]

01:14:15   make it was available and that's annoying and that's really all I need is [TS]

01:14:19   some market share that's always available and I'll do everything else [TS]

01:14:22   myself in client-side code because I can because it's a grocery list that I got [TS]

01:14:25   some people end up doing that's annoying they would like to not be able to do [TS]

01:14:29   that if their needs are satisfied by key-value store in like oh my god I [TS]

01:14:33   cloud and I know where it's coming out Friday and I'm storing like you know [TS]

01:14:37   like Marcus things like your your last read position and like it's really easy [TS]

01:14:41   to reconcile [TS]

01:14:44   non-critical its tube it's a date if i dont have a good throw it away and it's [TS]

01:14:48   like no big deal or like worst case I can just pick the lock the later one too [TS]

01:14:51   soon [TS]

01:14:52   you read from top to bottom like not having to do that and saying I can tell [TS]

01:14:56   you stories that just like makes people smile like a weight I don't have to do [TS]

01:15:00   any of that crap I just want to store number somewhere and I could do that for [TS]

01:15:04   me and you know it's like it's like keyless where can I go again came out [TS]

01:15:09   and have a proper lets people using them for everything was like well I didn't [TS]

01:15:13   need to design some stupid like to see structure ministerial I zip code or in [TS]

01:15:18   this case like this store like a list of values like I just a little bit crazy [TS]

01:15:23   and then you end up like trying to make appeals into your entire database and [TS]

01:15:27   that's bad but not if you give developers a little tiny bit of cool [TS]

01:15:33   infrastructure that makes them happy but if you keep cranking out the side you [TS]

01:15:38   know we're basically going to do everything for you and don't worry to [TS]

01:15:41   work in a doesn't then you know people scale back and say you know i maybe I [TS]

01:15:44   should go back to uploading Jason Powell says three cause that I'd at least I I [TS]

01:15:48   can have some guarantees about it working in a predictable way that's [TS]

01:15:52   predictable it's mostly reliable and to some degree it's a known quantity I [TS]

01:15:57   completely agree with you [TS]

01:15:59   yeah and and again like you know if if you have simple needs you can write your [TS]

01:16:03   own sync stuff and get another not everyone's going to get their sink stuff [TS]

01:16:06   correct but again like if it's a grocery list and you have to sync stuff like you [TS]

01:16:10   know what's the worst that can happen is not correct you can fix because of all [TS]

01:16:14   the source code you were the worst part is like it if it's going wrong in like [TS]

01:16:19   the you know the demons running on your local matter or wedged in or not [TS]

01:16:23   synchronizing or notify your applications like you don't control that [TS]

01:16:26   code you doin you're not making it run you don't have the source file bugs into [TS]

01:16:31   the black hole and just wait patiently the next major version but in the [TS]

01:16:34   meantime your customers just want their stuff to sink and it has been pointed [TS]

01:16:38   out to an article in so short you to read it before you put the whole thing [TS]

01:16:42   but you know this stuff and doing the server side stuff is real has really [TS]

01:16:47   gotten so easy in the last five years as so many tools come out to make it really [TS]

01:16:54   easy really chief you have to write so little custom code these days there are [TS]

01:16:59   great frameworks there are great services there there are there are [TS]

01:17:03   companies will automatically scale up and down [TS]

01:17:05   everything there are a lot of things that are more complex that will require [TS]

01:17:10   cuts to work but but for the most part for simple needs for most developers [TS]

01:17:14   needs you don't need anything bigger than like a lineout instance or you know [TS]

01:17:20   paying paying by the by the cycle on something like Heroku or as your or s3 [TS]

01:17:26   or a PC to and the things that use easy to like for most developers needs one [TS]

01:17:33   virtual server somewhere will cover it and you can write something and whatever [TS]

01:17:37   framework you find that is understandable to you and as Brent says [TS]

01:17:42   it was a very good point has been says like if you could learn Coco you can [TS]

01:17:47   learn this stuff you know [TS]

01:17:49   cocoa industry so obtuse in so many ways like web programming to somebody who's [TS]

01:17:54   who does iOS programming web programming will seem easy by comparison pointers [TS]

01:17:59   and type stuff is that part of the articles say it's not so much that it's [TS]

01:18:05   so much easier than it was before your summary of its dead it used to be that [TS]

01:18:11   for for a given amount of effort you get a certain result now if you put in it [TS]

01:18:15   sam nunn effort your result will be so much better [TS]

01:18:18   like the base the base level has risen so much is still going to be complicated [TS]

01:18:22   lots of stuff to learn and stuff like that but previously if you put in like a [TS]

01:18:26   week into getting a service and stuff you'll end up with like something that [TS]

01:18:29   looks like someone who had been just doing service for a week but now you [TS]

01:18:33   have such an incredible like up with all these instructions if you put in the [TS]

01:18:37   week your end result will be you're standing on the shoulders of giants who [TS]

01:18:41   created all the infrastructure for you not staring at a blinking cursor on a [TS]

01:18:46   bare you know Linux machine and saying okay now I guess I start writing a CGI [TS]

01:18:51   script there something like your see you have such a leg up so it is really [TS]

01:18:55   complicated not that people stay away I mean when it's like anything else if you [TS]

01:19:00   are service I develop you take a lot of stuff for granted but a lot of clients I [TS]

01:19:03   people are starting from basic knowledge that doesn't really help them that much [TS]

01:19:06   but they can follow tutorial to get some sort of rails thing up or even like [TS]

01:19:10   noting just get some sort of note instance [TS]

01:19:13   and you know put a little tiny snippet of code like a coaching strained back [TS]

01:19:16   and you can run that instance on a virtual machine that you can scale up [TS]

01:19:19   you are so far ahead of where expert service I did offers were in 1993 with [TS]

01:19:26   your stupid little 19 ekhono program right like the things that things can do [TS]

01:19:30   the scalability performance and reliability of that are just worlds [TS]

01:19:34   beyond expert level knowledge from two decades ago so that's that's even one [TS]

01:19:38   decade ago that's why I think like you know that's what he's getting at is like [TS]

01:19:41   even though you don't know anything about this you'll be able to get [TS]

01:19:44   something else that has good performance scalability and reliability even if you [TS]

01:19:49   have almost no idea what you're doing you just put it a little bit of time and [TS]

01:19:52   that was not true [TS]

01:19:53   many many years ago and also remains not true if you want a 500 million users [TS]

01:19:57   which is libelous crude but you're not gonna have 500 million users and if you [TS]

01:20:02   do presumably you can hire me look like Instapaper runs on about 10 servers does [TS]

01:20:08   it it does a lot of stuff for a lot of people but the magazine runs on the [TS]

01:20:13   cheapest VPS outline erode its $20 a month the entire service runs on that my [TS]

01:20:19   blog market or get service number of patients these days that runs on the [TS]

01:20:24   cheapest VPS outline erode again because it's like the stuff that we can get [TS]

01:20:30   today is so advanced and everything is so fast hardware so cheap to rent and [TS]

01:20:36   then with the so cheap [TS]

01:20:38   I've never bought damn with separately from any of these things like with all [TS]

01:20:41   the bandwidth is pooled from other servers and I've never exceeded that [TS]

01:20:44   pool adjust to whatever whatever each server comes with its all pull together [TS]

01:20:48   and I've never need to buy more than that and that's a pretty big with [TS]

01:20:52   intensive app like you can do so much now with so little money and so [TS]

01:20:58   relatively few servers and and and yet using one of these crazy host of things [TS]

01:21:03   you don't even have to deal with the individual servers directly its you can [TS]

01:21:07   just do so much and the fact is most iPhone app developers are gonna need to [TS]

01:21:13   do some crazy ridiculous complex thing during life their app should finish [TS]

01:21:18   quoting but I assume going by memory here is an article from the very bottom [TS]

01:21:22   part about [TS]

01:21:23   how r maybe this wasn't someone else's commentary Apple thing about how they [TS]

01:21:26   want to control all the important part is that part yeah well anyways I can't [TS]

01:21:33   find the exact part but he says you know here he said Tim Wood of the Omni group [TS]

01:21:38   treated the tweeted the phrase own the wheel [TS]

01:21:42   here's the thing is that this is Brent Burns words here here's the thing [TS]

01:21:47   have to Miller evolution is about designing and building apps for [TS]

01:21:49   smartphones and tablets [TS]

01:21:51   the other half is about right on the web services the power those apps how [TS]

01:21:54   comfortable are you with outsourcing half of the year after the company [TS]

01:21:57   gerber's commentary that I was remembering is it was so don't take [TS]

01:22:02   Bransford reconsider Tim Cook stock that's relieved that we need to own and [TS]

01:22:06   control the primary technologies behind the products we make you know if you [TS]

01:22:10   want to make a great product you want to have certain things under control [TS]

01:22:12   obviously you're not you don't control everything you know the App Store you [TS]

01:22:16   know control kokou during the source code for that in most cases unless it's [TS]

01:22:20   like you know something is part of Darwin like so many things are out of [TS]

01:22:23   your control and this is what's frustrating I think you know good [TS]

01:22:27   developers with iCloud is there they've accepted the things that are outside [TS]

01:22:32   their control the platform the store the other language the API the compiler and [TS]

01:22:36   lots of things are outside their control but they always felt like I can wrangle [TS]

01:22:41   the things that are within my control to make sure our customers have a good [TS]

01:22:44   experience in this club thing is like there between a rock and a hard place [TS]

01:22:46   because the customers think they wanted and are demanding that they want to sync [TS]

01:22:49   features and they specifically a strike called by name because good PR and they [TS]

01:22:54   can't make it work and that's that's an uncomfortable situation to be in my [TS]

01:22:58   brain to never promise last board because they control that side of it was [TS]

01:23:02   on it was on them to make it work and they could make it work because they [TS]

01:23:05   controlled everything top-to-bottom they never were gonna hit a barrier where [TS]

01:23:08   they like this isn't behaving in a deterministic way it's buggy and I can't [TS]

01:23:12   fix the bugs like that was never going to be you know it's a blocker right they [TS]

01:23:16   never had those bloggers who wasn't working right they were tweaked their [TS]

01:23:19   service offering if you really want to you know control your destiny to the [TS]

01:23:22   extent possible in a lot like Prince article said why would you give up [TS]

01:23:27   control over half of your application and less and less like giving up control [TS]

01:23:32   is one thing the other thing is like not having to worry about those details so [TS]

01:23:36   Lauren gave up control of his application to Game Center if that had [TS]

01:23:40   not worked out for him that would have been very bad and a lot of problems I [TS]

01:23:45   know but like it like eventually it sorted itself out of scaling problems [TS]

01:23:49   caused no news gave center for letterpress and bug in weird right but [TS]

01:23:53   he didn't want to write that stuff himself is not one interested him I had [TS]

01:23:58   to [TS]

01:23:59   that's the tradeoff he he made there maybe he regretted maybe who went second [TS]

01:24:03   time he would do the service I part himself right but that uncomfortable [TS]

01:24:07   situation where you know you're giving up control in exchange for you hope not [TS]

01:24:12   having to do that and if it comes out well you like hey look at all that work [TS]

01:24:16   I said that was really smart and you know I got featured on the App Store is [TS]

01:24:19   amusing game center in the seventh of the fringe benefits to using you know [TS]

01:24:22   Apple's API's right if it doesn't work out you can't keep your application here [TS]

01:24:26   adding it for the night time then you're sad and you like that happen again from [TS]

01:24:30   now on I'm ready everything from scratch like Lauren Berger who doesn't use you [TS]

01:24:34   like it [TS]

01:24:36   Center at the so what's gonna happen in June or whenever WBC is with regard [TS]

01:24:43   specifically to iCloud I mean is they gonna have a new API are they going to [TS]

01:24:47   say oh man everything is finally fixed and if so is it gonna be real there's [TS]

01:24:51   gonna be a bunch of baloney mean what do you guys think of everything is all that [TS]

01:24:55   the new filesystem Casey aw I walked in the Smart TV not a circus will be so [TS]

01:25:02   happy [TS]

01:25:03   no but seriously I mean do you guys think that they're going to be a big [TS]

01:25:06   push for iCloud repentant for it are they gonna say oh no really for our [TS]

01:25:11   first for sure I promise this time its facts I don't know if they have enough [TS]

01:25:17   time he'll apps for them to be able to you know they know they need to do [TS]

01:25:22   something I don't have enough time has passed them to have actually done it I [TS]

01:25:25   don't know if they can come to me and say here is the thing and we have a [TS]

01:25:30   solution to fixing it is scrapping and replacing is something in between like I [TS]

01:25:35   don't think there's enough time has passed for that to happen all I think [TS]

01:25:39   they can do when they show up there is hopefully engaged developers [TS]

01:25:44   acknowledged the issues and have something for them that improves their [TS]

01:25:47   lives in some way [TS]

01:25:48   while also acknowledging the like this I don't think they gonna come out it's not [TS]

01:25:51   like to think about 14 get that existed as another thing it's awesome it works [TS]

01:25:57   great [TS]

01:25:58   you will forget 501 ever existed and people go oh wow that's awesome and then [TS]

01:26:03   they just forget you know I don't think there's enough time has passed because [TS]

01:26:05   maybe maybe a pessimistic but like in the very story think they said they like [TS]

01:26:12   for people working on iCloud stuff or whatever Apple has anyone thinks they [TS]

01:26:17   have right and I know how much work [TS]

01:26:20   handful developers can get done in like a year's time I just I'm not optimistic [TS]

01:26:24   but I'm coming down from the mountain with new stone tablet and saying we have [TS]

01:26:29   some of your problems you know not because they don't want to hurt or [TS]

01:26:33   negligent but just because not enough time I don't think that might my theory [TS]

01:26:41   is that is entirely but I thought is that I i think there's problems in both [TS]

01:26:44   the AP the ABIM limitations and problems with just the user conceptual model of [TS]

01:26:49   iCloud and I love you know where your data is in your apps how it's tied to [TS]

01:26:54   the Appellate it signed into the device I think they're they're such conceptual [TS]

01:26:58   problems there that I'm not expecting iCloud as it is named today to ever be [TS]

01:27:04   fixed I'm expecting it to happen more like MobileMe which is like some next [TS]

01:27:11   generation they will come out in a few years to replace or upgrade iCloud and [TS]

01:27:17   work differently for the users not just the developers I think it'll it'll have [TS]

01:27:21   to be conceptually different for the user to keep the name now I don't think [TS]

01:27:26   they do the name change [TS]

01:27:29   be able because it already is an umbrella term in there are parts of [TS]

01:27:32   iCloud work ok like you don't have to scrap key-value store just don't it's [TS]

01:27:37   fine right under the umbrella of iCloud so when you say that iCloud is [TS]

01:27:40   conceptualized there's no such thing as iCloud like iCloud CoreData stuff is [TS]

01:27:44   conceptually bankrupt and needs to be replaced or modified in iCloud [TS]

01:27:48   conception of [TS]

01:27:49   hey when you signed out we dump all your data that was linked to it like that [TS]

01:27:52   whole connection between your Apple ID DRI cloud thing and the data and [TS]

01:27:55   applications like that can be revised it all day thing can happen over the course [TS]

01:27:59   of several years without ever having to have a MobileMe to iCloud type [TS]

01:28:04   transition I like I think they can keep the name because it is an umbrella term [TS]

01:28:07   that really has no relation to you know like why is key value storage and [TS]

01:28:14   documents in the cloud on the umbrella of I got no reason they don't share the [TS]

01:28:18   same service that this setback and might be written by entirely different teams [TS]

01:28:22   be entirely different code the friend an API is also entirely different teams [TS]

01:28:25   they can be entirely different languages for all we knew they'd like to see that [TS]

01:28:28   one could be like are found like they're so there it as unrelated at anything [TS]

01:28:32   else except the network services market decide they're going to be under the [TS]

01:28:36   umbrella I cause I think Apple has plenty of runway in the room to totally [TS]

01:28:41   change everything about iCloud well still calling iCloud and just making it [TS]

01:28:45   look like over making it better [TS]

01:28:47   yeah I think but I think they like they're gonna have to do something [TS]

01:28:51   that's that's changing the way you know the whole portion of iCloud that is AB [TS]

01:28:58   storage the app storing their own data and having that sink somehow they do [TS]

01:29:04   multiple uses and I S III just think that whole concept as we talk about [TS]

01:29:09   being in another episode about about the the file storage thing not necessarily [TS]

01:29:15   making a lot of sense or or being too simple and not really addressing the [TS]

01:29:18   problem domain well enough I I think the entire iCloud data model for apps has [TS]

01:29:24   that problem [TS]

01:29:25   the entire I thought data model is too simple to limited doesn't really address [TS]

01:29:29   the real life problems and usage well enough for a lot of apps and I think [TS]

01:29:32   we're not going to see that get fixed with the part that we currently know [TS]

01:29:37   today as I cloud over the section of it what we will probably instead see is [TS]

01:29:41   people will start following instructions of you see fewer and fewer ads relying [TS]

01:29:46   on iCloud especially from big developers who who who know better and have the [TS]

01:29:50   resources to do not use it and under a tree and and I i feel like just like the [TS]

01:29:58   both of you said key-value storage I think that'll carry on I think [TS]

01:30:02   documents and iCloud will probably carry on I feel like core data sync iCloud [TS]

01:30:08   will go the way of garbage collection and no matter how you look at it the [TS]

01:30:12   forecast for iCloud it's cloudy we have to end the show now I did that just [TS]

01:30:18   really you're not allowed to keep talking up to that I do that was [TS]

01:30:24   terrible but I restrained myself see that scans your professional and we [TS]

01:30:31   should have an awesome song by Jonathan man how awesome was at stake now the [TS]

01:30:41   show they didn't even need to be in a dental [TS]

01:30:51   John [TS]

01:30:52   Casey [TS]

01:30:56   because it was accidental [TS]

01:30:59   and you can show no see a team markle [TS]

01:31:39   did you see his follow up like a second version better he made a second version [TS]

01:31:45   yes I said the song he made was nice but it didn't it didn't like the magically [TS]

01:31:52   whatever it didn't seem right for the show and he said well what would sound [TS]

01:31:57   right there shows and books or something he made some moves which is also awesome [TS]

01:32:07   the accent down for the day [TS]

01:32:39   that I did not see i no idea I'll have to pay as one of the men and will give [TS]

01:32:48   will give him a good link in the show notes and thanks to Jonathan man that [TS]

01:32:52   the song a day guide you to for doing this so I I love I lost my junk when I [TS]

01:33:00   saw that in the sense that I don't believe that a good way in the good way [TS]

01:33:03   in that I can't believe that somebody on the internet would care enough about the [TS]

01:33:09   city it's particularly me to to include me / us in a song that I was beside [TS]

01:33:15   myself excited that I'm good enough and gosh people like me [TS]

01:33:39   cyclist don't want to have to do something it'll take at least a hundred [TS]

01:33:47   episodes don't you nobody's gonna be sick of us has an artist I always wonder [TS]

01:33:53   if like if you know mark on I we had our progress where are we getting to Union [TS]

01:33:57   people are we getting the intersection for the people who can who could [TS]

01:34:02   tolerate me and can tolerate Marco is the sum of our parts less than you know [TS]

01:34:10   I think you guys are confused really on the big draw in you too or just writing [TS]

01:34:13   my coat tails yeah that's what your job is is to make all the people who hate [TS]

01:34:20   both me and Marco have someone like Apple / John sorry there are those [TS]

01:34:25   people and you know I want to start months Casey starts getting haters of [TS]

01:34:29   his own then pulled them out problem it's only a matter of time and you can't [TS]

01:34:32   do a podcast for that long and not getting very likable very likable that's [TS]

01:34:37   true not just like we are so have we met [TS]

01:34:43   what did you see somebody wasn't earlier today tweeted about how ugly we all are [TS]

01:34:46   ya when am I gonna argue [TS]