The Accidental Tech Podcast

81: You Left Your Money in a Bank


00:00:00   Yes No I don't duck the question if you know look at the file. All right so let's start with some follow up. [TS]

00:00:10   To begin we have some follow up about the Tivo O.T. or Oter if you're Marco Otara my apologies. [TS]

00:00:20   Yes feedback was from Joseph. Last week we talked about who the O.J. [TS]

00:00:24   Might be good for I said you know get it try it out if you don't like it you know the stopping of it in dollars a month [TS]

00:00:31   just points out that those require a one year commitment of service that has a thirty day money back guarantee in which [TS]

00:00:37   you can cancel or return it but you can't keep it for a couple months to see if you like it. [TS]

00:00:42   I didn't I didn't actually check whether this is true but I trust him like a trustworthy guy with a lone first name [TS]

00:00:49   and a last name so you go you know because over the air is not a wasteland of just four networks in San Francisco [TS]

00:00:57   and Dan Benjamin thermoses go rant here. There is over ninety distinct channels of content available over the air. [TS]

00:01:04   Isis of some of its like religious or shopping [TS]

00:01:06   but there's tons of that stuff on cable to sell apparently in some places actually have lots of channels coming over [TS]

00:01:11   there. Yeah but like what kind of channels like is there that you actually want to watch. [TS]

00:01:14   See that's the thing so Aaron and I have season tickets to the universe of any football team. [TS]

00:01:21   And we've gotten pretty serious about the tailgates with a mutual friend of ours Brian and he brings a generator [TS]

00:01:28   and we bring a T.V. and We bring in over the air H.D. [TS]

00:01:31   In China [TS]

00:01:32   and in Charlottesville Virginia which we've all established that you two think is basically the middle of nowhere. [TS]

00:01:39   Actually it's past the middle of nowhere into straight up nothingness [TS]

00:01:42   and here in Richmond as well because of the Internet here we get I think Fox C.B.S. N.B.C. A.B.C. [TS]

00:01:50   I do know we get the C W Which was I was a little surprised to see but that's basically it [TS]

00:01:56   and then all those all the standards. Channels like Fox and N.B.C. Might not. [TS]

00:02:02   They have like two [TS]

00:02:03   or three sub channels like weather which just shows the weather non-stop it's like a dashboard if you will. [TS]

00:02:09   And and that's pretty much all we get. [TS]

00:02:12   So I'm sure there are places that gets plenty of channels [TS]

00:02:19   but I tell you what this is where I live is not one of those places. Do we have any of the follow up. [TS]

00:02:25   Yes and I don't duck the question if you know look at the file. [TS]

00:02:34   Boateng album doing well he sent us a link to a tumbler dedicated to frayed lightning cables that is appropriately [TS]

00:02:42   named for a lightning cables dot com a dot com In fact it has more than just frayed lightning cables on it [TS]

00:02:47   but a lot of the things I had they were chewed by Animals I Have No no promise about what made these things fray I [TS]

00:02:53   think it's just a tumbler afraid by any of us [TS]

00:02:55   but if you want to see a bunch of free lightning cables you know Rule thirty four an hour and all go for it. All right. [TS]

00:03:03   Yeah next bit of follow up is about Amazon buying twitch and how Google was look like they were interested [TS]

00:03:11   but then bailed out of people didn't quite know why. [TS]

00:03:13   Here is a rumor sent to us by Hunter on Twitter saying the rumor is that the break up fee was too high relative to the [TS]

00:03:20   risk of regulators killing it so Google was going to buy them normally as part of the deal they say OK well we agreed [TS]

00:03:26   to buy you and it turns out that the U.S. Government doesn't let us buy you for like anti trust reasons or whatever. [TS]

00:03:31   There's some theory that will still pay you as part of this deal and apparently twitch wanted to break up see. [TS]

00:03:38   There was two I can according to this rumor they're not confirmed or any [TS]

00:03:41   but I would that explains why twitch might have accepted an offer from Amazon that is reportedly lower than what Google [TS]

00:03:47   was willing to offer for them because there's more to the deal than just the numbers also what you're paying in cash [TS]

00:03:54   or stock and also things like break up fees so this is a plausible rumor about why. [TS]

00:04:00   Which might have gone with Amazon set ago. All right what about we breezed your file I'm not sure I shall forget it. [TS]

00:04:07   I'm impressed. Let's start with something cool and then we'll get into the real meat of the episode. [TS]

00:04:12   We are sponsored this week once again by our friends at Harry's. [TS]

00:04:16   I don't think I ever actually spelled it last time [TS]

00:04:18   and so God knows how anybody actually you know I thought what I was saying. [TS]

00:04:22   But anyway it's H A R R Y S dot com a kind of Harry's You know with the apostrophe but you can't put an apostrophe [TS]

00:04:28   or else I don't think police and host names anyway go to Harry's dot com and use promo code A.T.P. [TS]

00:04:35   To saved five dollars off your first purchase. [TS]

00:04:37   So what is Harry's Harry's is less than a one year old [TS]

00:04:40   and they are already substantially disrupting the shaving industry. [TS]

00:04:45   Harry's offers a better shaving experience and better value than the Giants in the space like shaken Gillette. [TS]

00:04:52   So here is this is very much like like some or other sponsors like Parker's or eyeglasses. [TS]

00:05:00   This count carries us for shaving [TS]

00:05:01   and this is not a coincidence because one of the founders of Harry's Jeff also was the co-founder of Warby Parker So [TS]

00:05:10   there are many similarities here. [TS]

00:05:11   Both of them are disrupting huge stagnant industries by offering great design meticulous craftsmanship [TS]

00:05:17   and great highly personal customer service and most of all they're offering this at an amazing value. [TS]

00:05:22   The other founder Andy he was motivated to to address shaving because he went to a drugstore one dated to restock on [TS]

00:05:29   shaving stuff and he had to ask for help [TS]

00:05:31   and wait around for more than ten minutes for someone to come unlock the shoplifter resistant razor case [TS]

00:05:37   and he was eventually permitted to buy a four pack of blades and some shaving cream [TS]

00:05:41   and for all this great privilege of being treated like a criminal [TS]

00:05:44   and having a bunch of time wasted he to pay over twenty five dollars for just four blades and some shaving cream. [TS]

00:05:50   He knew there had to be a better way to do this. [TS]

00:05:52   Harry is makes amazing German engineer blades they care so much about the quality of these blades they actually bought [TS]

00:05:58   a ninety three year old. [TS]

00:06:00   German factory that makes the blades they did they went on the you you make great plays we're going to just buy you out. [TS]

00:06:05   I'm going to make a new company with this. [TS]

00:06:08   So Harry's is focused on providing men [TS]

00:06:10   and women a great shaving experience for a fraction of the price of their competitors they charge less than two dollars [TS]

00:06:17   per blade cartridge [TS]

00:06:18   and if you go look around at what you've been paying for reader cartridges from the big brands under two dollars each [TS]

00:06:25   is probably about half of what you've been paying if you've been getting a good deal. [TS]

00:06:29   So this is you know a fantastic price and I tried to. They sent me. [TS]

00:06:33   They sent me the big starter kit and everything that I tried these blades [TS]

00:06:36   and they're really good I was I was surprised you know I was worried that I might I might like try it [TS]

00:06:42   and maybe I wouldn't like it and I just wouldn't say anything because of awkward but I know I tried these [TS]

00:06:48   and I like them a lot actually. [TS]

00:06:49   They I was very impressed by the blades and by the handle the handles like nice and weighty. [TS]

00:06:53   Everything about it is very high quality packaging is really nice. I was I was very impressed by all of it. [TS]

00:06:59   Harry's you get the convenience and ease of ordering online you get high quality blades you get a great handle [TS]

00:07:04   and shaving cream and excellent customer service. [TS]

00:07:06   All this at half the price of competitors so you can get started today. [TS]

00:07:10   You can say you can try your so if you could see what I'm talking about guessers today with a set include the handle [TS]

00:07:15   three blades and shaving cream for just fifteen dollars shipped to your door. [TS]

00:07:20   That's a fifteen bucks including shipping for a handle three blades and green. You can't beat that. [TS]

00:07:25   Harry's even offers a custom engraving option on the handle if you are that kind of person. [TS]

00:07:30   So anyway go to Harry dot com Use promo code A.T.P. [TS]

00:07:33   To save five dollars off your first purchase thank you very much to Harry's for sponsoring our show once again. [TS]

00:07:39   So Marco when you were big into P C Did you read Tom's Hardware very often of course. [TS]

00:07:46   Yeah I remember back when they made Intel recall the one point one gigahertz penny. [TS]

00:07:52   And John I seem you were at least ten generally aware if not a reader yourself. [TS]

00:07:57   Now I know about it but I don't read it. OK. [TS]

00:08:00   So Toms Hardware for Marco myself was a really important resource and Web site. [TS]

00:08:06   I don't know ten years ago ish maybe even fifteen now just to talk about the real nitty gritty about hardware for the [TS]

00:08:15   P.C. World and to me is it. Anand techer Nanda tech I'm probably pronouncing it wrong both ways. [TS]

00:08:22   Do we know which one it is. John you're in charge of princes on the show. I got nothing on this one I don't buy it. [TS]

00:08:28   I have met the man in person still and a lot of nothing. [TS]

00:08:31   So an intact seem to me anyway to be very much the Toms Hardware of the Apple world in twenty fourteen [TS]

00:08:39   and if that doesn't sound like a compliment it should because that is a huge compliment [TS]

00:08:44   and apparently now going to say a non-self totally inconsistent but in times has left [TS]

00:08:50   and as it turns out he's going somewhere very interesting he's off to Apple. So Marco What do you think about all this. [TS]

00:08:59   I think I'm honestly I'm disappointed that we're not going to read any more of his awesome reviews because what he you [TS]

00:09:05   know I compare him to John like what what John does for software and then we're due for hardware [TS]

00:09:10   and his insights on things like C.P.U. Design and like where where P.C. [TS]

00:09:17   Hardware was going and what was becoming important and what wasn't [TS]

00:09:20   and he was really just incredibly good at both writing about this stuff at seeing what's what's here seeing what's [TS]

00:09:28   coming [TS]

00:09:29   and explaining very very complex things about you know things like chip design you know explaining that in a way that [TS]

00:09:36   makes it relevant to the readers of these reviews [TS]

00:09:38   and so we don't know what he's doing in Apple We also know that they hired Brian clued into is that right. [TS]

00:09:45   I believe that's right. They hired Brian clue who was also a writer at an end tech. [TS]

00:09:49   So so they hired Apple apparently hired him very quietly a few months back and so anyways anally got both of them. I. [TS]

00:09:57   Interesting to know what what department they're even. [TS]

00:10:00   Working for I don't know what their qualifications are exactly I would I was unsure guess that I don't know much about [TS]

00:10:05   Browder ensure against the demand probably knows probably has has enough background to work on the ticket on department [TS]

00:10:11   but I really don't know. [TS]

00:10:13   Yeah that's the question like When he posted on the site that he was just retiring he didn't say where he was going he [TS]

00:10:19   just said like I'm retiring from tech kernels which is different than leaving the Web site that bears my name like you [TS]

00:10:24   didn't just say that I was not like some power struggle [TS]

00:10:26   or something with something he wasn't leaving the Web site to go over some of those now I'm retiring from tech [TS]

00:10:30   journalism [TS]

00:10:31   and minus one tempered agent that was he wanted to do something else right because he's obviously has retired generals [TS]

00:10:38   and I mean he's not going to show up writing reviews of hardware [TS]

00:10:40   and some other Web site is not going to start his own Web site with a different name [TS]

00:10:43   or you know like that that he was done with that and he wanted to do something else with this one [TS]

00:10:48   and then I tweeted that day like here are the list of companies that should be trying to hire him [TS]

00:10:54   and what I was doing that I was trying to think like what what value could he bring to a company [TS]

00:11:00   and who what to what companies he the most valuable [TS]

00:11:03   and the top of my list with Intel because aside from all of the reason everything [TS]

00:11:08   and in all of his contact with these various hardware vendors he definitely has some frustration with Intel like we all [TS]

00:11:16   do like trying to figure out like are they going to be you know. [TS]

00:11:20   When they sold all their ARM Holdings to get rid of you know they stop trying to make ARM chips to do their own thing. [TS]

00:11:28   The whole X. [TS]

00:11:29   Eighty six on mobile [TS]

00:11:30   and how that's going into various software initiatives vacation we have are they just going to be a fab [TS]

00:11:35   or they continue are they going to continue to sell chips. [TS]

00:11:38   He had interesting things to say about what he thought Intel should be doing with their business [TS]

00:11:43   and how competitive their products actually are and could potentially be in the future [TS]

00:11:47   and I'm sure he told in tower all these things and he told the same thing to anybody which is the company I was did [TS]

00:11:53   and a bunch of other people you know it's kind of like an outsider's perspective of like look inside the Intel bubble [TS]

00:11:58   you maybe think you're doing. Right Thing but from my perspective you are you know you should be doing X. Y. and Z. [TS]

00:12:04   and You're not or you should do this sooner or later you should acquire this company or start doing that. [TS]

00:12:07   Stop doing that. So it seems like he had a lot of insight into their business and that would be valuable to them. [TS]

00:12:14   And same thing with other companies is that's what being content with these hardware vendors [TS]

00:12:17   and you would meet with them and they would explain what their upcoming line of things are and [TS]

00:12:22   and then he would write about it and presumably he would tell them [TS]

00:12:24   and to their faces like you know I think you can do this and this other company doing that [TS]

00:12:28   and you know like just giving his opinion like what he wrote on his website about all of this is big picture things not [TS]

00:12:34   just like let me tell you how many added should be here next year [TS]

00:12:37   but just like you know a grand scheme of things strategy. [TS]

00:12:41   So then that [TS]

00:12:43   when it came out that he was going to Apple I didn't put up on a list because I thought that of all the things he can [TS]

00:12:50   offer Apple probably had existing people doing those same things and didn't seem as like sort of rudderless you know [TS]

00:12:58   or as sort of flailing at some of these other companies like Apple seems to have it stuff together right. [TS]

00:13:04   But Apple did hire him which again shows they're probably other stuff together more than other companies are going to [TS]

00:13:08   probably don't even know they need someone like him but Apple does know that having someone like him is valuable [TS]

00:13:12   and I was trying to think what he could do for Apple a lot of people guessed that he would have something to do with [TS]

00:13:17   press relations [TS]

00:13:18   and he certainly does have a heck of a lot of experience at the interface between technology companies and press [TS]

00:13:23   but he's always on the other side of it so I don't quite see what he would do for Apple on the I don't know I may be I [TS]

00:13:31   think he has expertise in an area that could be used [TS]

00:13:34   but I don't know if that would interest them I don't know enough about it interest chip stuff I don't know if he's ever [TS]

00:13:40   designed to be got opinions that J.P. Knows a lot about architecture on the broad level but down to the nitty gritty. [TS]

00:13:45   I don't know if he has that depth of knowledge about you know laying out laying out circuits [TS]

00:13:52   or deciding like you know and maybe you don't have to maybe you can be more you know a visor a supervisory role there. [TS]

00:13:59   I really don't know now. [TS]

00:14:00   Got a skill set to even guess about what department to be [TS]

00:14:02   and it's kind of in the same situation that I always imagine myself to be in. [TS]

00:14:08   Which is why Apple will never hire me as likely only have one call to do it. Apple is a tell everyone what to do. [TS]

00:14:15   Those jobs are already filled by people who have earned the right to do that [TS]

00:14:18   and not just by saying well I have an opinion. Yeah well that's why you don't get that job right. [TS]

00:14:22   But he has more than just an opinion. [TS]

00:14:23   Like I think he has actual insights [TS]

00:14:25   and has much more you know you have he has close contact with so many vendors in the harbor interesting [TS]

00:14:31   and such in-depth knowledge of all of their products and that that is valuable to them [TS]

00:14:35   and so it seems like he would have to be in a position of some considerable authority like you're not going to just [TS]

00:14:41   make him be some with another car going to machine like he left the Web site the founder he was fourteen [TS]

00:14:46   and has his name on it so I think he's in obsession where he's going to be able to make big moves [TS]

00:14:54   and be an important part of Apple's organization I find that exciting. Yeah I hope so. [TS]

00:14:59   You know like so in the chat room Pavan or a person linked to this thing will put in the show. [TS]

00:15:05   It's Apple Jobs entry on on their on their job site where it fits the job title is performance marketing analyst [TS]

00:15:13   and it says in this role you will develop test methodologies test Apple devices [TS]

00:15:17   and competitive products analyze test results [TS]

00:15:20   and help prepare performance data to support product managers in creating compelling performance stories for product [TS]

00:15:25   launch materials. OK so anyway. [TS]

00:15:29   What that all basically means is he would be doing like reviews [TS]

00:15:33   and comparisons for internal use to put in marketing materials. [TS]

00:15:37   I I cannot see him leaving his own site to do this like this. [TS]

00:15:41   This doesn't seem like it's a big enough car in an important part of a machine like that he's a little overqualified [TS]

00:15:47   Yeah. [TS]

00:15:47   And you feel like but [TS]

00:15:48   but on the other hand Apple is the kind of company that smart enough to get someone is overqualified to fill because [TS]

00:15:54   like that position doesn't necessarily have to be as kind of grunt work as it seems because you could. [TS]

00:16:00   It's the design a future products like it's you know from the outside [TS]

00:16:04   and I can say like oh well here's what they did with the C.P.U. [TS]

00:16:07   In this review combination and really they would've ended up with a better platform. They don't X. Y. and Z. [TS]

00:16:12   but He can actually make that happen whereas if you doing comparison tests of like prototype hardware inside the [TS]

00:16:16   company and it's OK Well for this one thing and for the next chip I think these guys are going to do X. Y. and Z. [TS]

00:16:23   That like you can actually influence the roadmap as opposed to just commenting on it from the outside. [TS]

00:16:27   So that is potentially not this exact position [TS]

00:16:30   but like the head of all the people doing that is potentially a powerful position within the organization because you [TS]

00:16:35   can influence the hardware or about of Apple's products [TS]

00:16:38   and that I mean you know that that's could be beneficial to Apple and I think it might be interesting to them. [TS]

00:16:44   Yeah I definitely think you know if if there is a chance that he's actually going to be involved in like you know [TS]

00:16:49   component selection maybe like you know what you're saying like trying to influence you know not necessarily designing [TS]

00:16:54   the chips but try to like helping Apple figure out you know what kind of G.P.U. Should they be. [TS]

00:17:00   Should they be looking for from power be art or whatever for the next device [TS]

00:17:04   or whatever like you know he could definitely be an atty [TS]

00:17:06   and I'd imagine he's he's very much qualified to do that sort of thing so but who knows. [TS]

00:17:11   This is very much a mystery [TS]

00:17:12   and I have a feeling it might be a while before we even figure out you know what exactly he's doing you know in the [TS]

00:17:20   thing that's interesting to me about it is he was kind of the big cheese in this apple bubble or what [TS]

00:17:26   when it comes to hardware related things I mean I think he was certainly an extremely important person in the community. [TS]

00:17:34   And if I'm maybe I'm just egotistic jerk but if I were to if I were unarmed and I was thinking whether [TS]

00:17:42   or not I should go to Apple it would have it would take a lot for me to say you know what I'm going to you know hang up [TS]

00:17:49   my boots or whatever the phrase is I'm thinking of and [TS]

00:17:52   and I'm going to go work in a place that usually doesn't really smile upon being forthcoming. [TS]

00:18:00   And being very public with what you do and his whole existence up until this point was being forthcoming [TS]

00:18:07   and being public about what he did. [TS]

00:18:09   And so whatever it is it's got to have scratched an itch that and an Tekken on tech couldn't scratch before. [TS]

00:18:16   So I like you guys that I'm extremely interested in seeing where he ends up [TS]

00:18:22   and especially if he does end up in engineering in what is that going to mean I'm not sure what his background is it [TS]

00:18:28   certainly sounds the way he writes it sounds like he's either got a formal [TS]

00:18:32   or an extensive informal education in engineering. [TS]

00:18:35   I don't I guess I don't know his particular background but [TS]

00:18:37   but whatever it is it's certainly an interesting move to Iran he says that Brian CLUCAS an optical engineer which you [TS]

00:18:47   might have picked up by listening to the PA guess where he talks about cameras. [TS]

00:18:49   So I also don't know where he's working [TS]

00:18:52   but if he is actually a trained optical engineer that makes sense that he might have something there with cameras [TS]

00:18:58   and Apple devices. Yeah I mean all very important areas. [TS]

00:19:02   So I think it's you know if these guys want to keep doing press [TS]

00:19:06   or review type stuff they would have kept doing that on an on an end to act like they had a great set up there. [TS]

00:19:11   They don't need to go to Apple to do that. [TS]

00:19:14   Like I think they would need to go to Apple to do something else to do something more engineering focused maybe like [TS]

00:19:19   there's no way they're going to Apple to go make a graph of the market apartment not a chance [TS]

00:19:25   and say that Apple it's not like we're ever going to know it's not like that and they're like oh we don't know now [TS]

00:19:30   but I'm sure Apple tell exactly what now they're never going to tell us like it's you know we see em next year we can [TS]

00:19:36   talk to him about it and maybe you know but like how many people do we know at Apple [TS]

00:19:41   and we know like what department they work in [TS]

00:19:42   and like that's it you know what specifically we're going to get you know it's like well you just accept it like you're [TS]

00:19:49   lucky if you can get you know hardware or software or hardware group itself [TS]

00:19:52   or a group that's as close as you can get usually And we don't even know if Phil Schiller does you know he does like [TS]

00:19:59   everything. And his title is like marketing. [TS]

00:20:01   He goes he goes to Red Sox games right any of mountain bikes mountain bike sometime he buys R.H. For his team. [TS]

00:20:09   All we know is that he does pretty much everything [TS]

00:20:12   and his title doesn't mean anything so real real time follow up the chat room is telling us that Anon has a computer [TS]

00:20:20   engineering degree which is sound similar to myself [TS]

00:20:22   and Surtees are from North Carolina State University which I actually very nearly went to it was between that Virginia [TS]

00:20:29   Tech such as rich in Utah so he certainly has an engineering background now you could argue whether [TS]

00:20:34   or not he's practiced that in the traditional sense of the word in the last I don't know ten years or whatever [TS]

00:20:39   but he certainly has the education to support him being in the engineering department. [TS]

00:20:44   It's a question as to whether or not he actually is in the engineering department right. [TS]

00:20:48   They wouldn't be hiring and for the stuff you learn in college [TS]

00:20:50   or the hiring for all this time he didn't like them because. [TS]

00:20:53   Yeah [TS]

00:20:54   and it can't it can't be underestimated like who who in the entire industry has had more contact with the vendors that [TS]

00:21:03   Apple feels competitive with hardware wise. [TS]

00:21:05   Like it's basically what kind of press goes to like you know the intel the I.D.F. [TS]

00:21:09   Thing and goes to Samsung in Korea and goes to you know all the manufacturers in the Far East [TS]

00:21:15   and like just this incredibly detailed technical briefings on hardware and get to sample hardware and test it [TS]

00:21:21   and benchmark like who else has done that like this you know maybe with a couple of other web sites that are maybe [TS]

00:21:27   competitive like Real World tag or Extreme Tech and Tom hardware store around or whatever [TS]

00:21:31   but what kind of person is going on that circuit being in contact with companies of the course of years [TS]

00:21:37   and years like that is the experience that you can't buy from someone who you know comes out of college education [TS]

00:21:42   and that's what they're hiring him for. [TS]

00:21:44   Yeah [TS]

00:21:44   and I should also note more real time follow up from a different of the show Ben Thompson a nun was more than just Apple [TS]

00:21:52   and he was and I didn't realize this but apparently he and his site were more of a general. [TS]

00:22:00   Hardware reviews you never read that's what you read Tom's Hardware but not on tech. [TS]

00:22:03   I really do believe in the wrong side. [TS]

00:22:05   He just got into Apple stuff like you know sort of a late comer like you and Marco you [TS]

00:22:09   and Margo moralizer I'd like to hear your view do you know all the P.C. Hardware type stuff. [TS]

00:22:14   Well maybe Apple has a MITI seven he got sucked in because Apple stuff is really cool just like you did it wasn't [TS]

00:22:18   wasn't the retina mapper pro is first mac now I was before the May be afraid of personal Mac. [TS]

00:22:23   But like I mean the apple stuff leaked into his site sort of slowly [TS]

00:22:26   and then they just all got hooked like that I mean it had been our second go to I may have had something to do with [TS]

00:22:31   that it's a lot like the way I read arse technical like I always read your reviews [TS]

00:22:36   and I'll read the occasional things here and there. [TS]

00:22:38   I read occasional things that are non tech I can't say I read every single post by any stretch of the imagination [TS]

00:22:45   but like Mark I said in recent years it's been like if you want a review of the i Phone that is that is different then [TS]

00:22:51   like you know not just the product review but the guy was going to rip open the C.P.U. [TS]

00:22:55   and Talk about all the you know that's the site I would go to that was my go to site for that kind of review. [TS]

00:23:00   Yeah yeah and then those are the reviews that I read [TS]

00:23:02   but I presume that there's quite a bit more to a non-technical sat in those I did not see. [TS]

00:23:08   Yeah I go there for I mean they have storage reviews are made up of lots of people writing their I mean aside I think [TS]

00:23:12   it's in good hands like that he doesn't write every single thing on the side obviously [TS]

00:23:15   but I go there you know reviews about what's next [TS]

00:23:17   and as a season you know graphic card stuff on that site is like a lot of the P.C. [TS]

00:23:22   Originated inside very big on benchmarks lots of graphs you know if I want to know what video. [TS]

00:23:27   How does one of you hard compared to another I do some kind of search [TS]

00:23:31   and I think I have a big circle benchmark database for that like they're very thorough in that same vein they're [TS]

00:23:36   they're great at a photo to it even though it's not there and I hope he does great things for Apple. [TS]

00:23:41   So thumbs up for this move. Yeah good luck. [TS]

00:23:44   All right we're also sponsored this week by our friends at square space square space is the only one platform that [TS]

00:23:51   makes it fast and easy to create your own professional web site. [TS]

00:23:54   Portfolio an online store for free trial and ten percent off minute squarespace dot com. And in her offer code A.T.P. [TS]

00:24:02   At checkout the better web starts with your website. Now square space they are simple and easy. [TS]

00:24:08   I told the story last week about how I I was I was tasked with redoing a website for a group that I that I work with [TS]

00:24:16   and my job was to put myself out of a job as quickly as possible so they would need to need to come to me for anything [TS]

00:24:23   and they were going to go with some kind of custom development self hosted thing [TS]

00:24:26   and I basically said hey give me an hour and let me give me an hour and I'll show you I'll show you alternative [TS]

00:24:32   and then we can decide. [TS]

00:24:34   And I took I took an hour and I copied their entire site into Squarespace and I gave them a nice modern theme [TS]

00:24:40   and everything and it was it was glorious how easy it was how how quickly I was able to do it [TS]

00:24:46   and how great it looking at their old site was a really antiquated in probably made in in the ninety's you know really [TS]

00:24:51   really old site and I got this new site going in and in one hour and I showed them as look here. [TS]

00:24:56   You can if you want we can we can talk about your other option or we can do this [TS]

00:25:01   and this cost ten bucks a month instead of three thousand dollars plus plus hosting ten bucks a month you get all the [TS]

00:25:08   stuff for free [TS]

00:25:09   and they don't to worry about it you can all the stuff as much as you want without having to go with your me [TS]

00:25:13   or any of the developers. [TS]

00:25:15   You you can change things you can change the theme you can change the colors you can change the pictures you can change [TS]

00:25:19   all the stuff yourself [TS]

00:25:21   and if you need help Squarespace offers twenty four seventh's support so you don't need to go through me or any [TS]

00:25:26   or any other developer you get support from them and I have met with them again this week to finalize the stuff [TS]

00:25:32   and they're just so blown away that this is even possible. [TS]

00:25:35   And how much easier cheaper [TS]

00:25:37   and better this is than what they were going to do with self hosting custom development installation and I really I am. [TS]

00:25:44   I'm so happy for them that they say a bunch of money and effort [TS]

00:25:46   and I'm so happy for myself I don't have to do any work and so everybody wins. [TS]

00:25:51   If you also want this go to squarespace dot com Check it out start a free trial you can get a free trial with no credit [TS]

00:25:56   card required it's a real free trial. I'm still on their feet. [TS]

00:26:00   While for this because they're about to buy it I think the next couple days [TS]

00:26:02   and we you know I don't have the credit card and all the stuff anyway. [TS]

00:26:05   I'll get will do all this without even having a credit card just set it up. It's great because I can check this out. [TS]

00:26:11   Start building your Web site today. You don't even need to pay. I didn't start start building Rafat today. [TS]

00:26:16   When you decide to sign in for Squarespace please make sure to use the offer code A.T.P. [TS]

00:26:20   That will get you ten percent off your first purchase there [TS]

00:26:23   and it will also show your support for our show they will tell them that you came from here [TS]

00:26:27   and they'll keep buying ads to help support us so please do that use offer code A.T.P. [TS]

00:26:31   Thank you very much to Squarespace once again for sponsoring our show a better Web Start with your website. [TS]

00:26:38   OK So also this week this week it's been a rough week [TS]

00:26:43   but this week it's been even more rough for a bunch of celebrities and I believe all of them [TS]

00:26:50   or nearly all of them are women [TS]

00:26:52   and they really seem to have been targeted in order to get access to pictures that really the internet should not have [TS]

00:27:02   access to. [TS]

00:27:03   And what has happened is there's a ton of celebrities I've I heard and I honestly don't know how long list is [TS]

00:27:09   but I heard it was like fifty [TS]

00:27:10   or a hundred names long tons of celebrities that have had private vote photographs stolen from them [TS]

00:27:18   and posted around the Internet. [TS]

00:27:20   And when this first happened everyone seemed to blame icloud [TS]

00:27:25   and the going theory was that I believe was find my i Phone specifically did not have rate limiting [TS]

00:27:32   when you attempted to log into it. [TS]

00:27:34   So some enterprising if you could call it that individuals started firing away brute force dictionary attacks against [TS]

00:27:43   the Find My i Phone Service trying to figure out what the i Cloud password is for all these celebrities [TS]

00:27:51   and eventually by some mechanism be it social engineering or this find my i Phone thing or whatever. [TS]

00:27:58   They seem to have gotten. [TS]

00:28:00   Access to a bunch of celebrities private photographs which have been leaked [TS]

00:28:04   and so since this happened on a few days ago there's been a lot of debate whether [TS]

00:28:09   or not this is really the fault of Apple and i Cloud And there's a lot of thoughts I have on this [TS]

00:28:15   but let me start with you John what how do you think this is our poll or do you think this is something else. [TS]

00:28:21   How do you where do you land on all this. Well here's the thing with the story. [TS]

00:28:25   The facts are thin on the ground there is very real. [TS]

00:28:28   It's not clear at all about any anything about this to the pictures come from Apple [TS]

00:28:33   or from multiple aces are they all pictures of the new pictures like an actual security flaw [TS]

00:28:39   or was it a social engineering it like we know nothing. [TS]

00:28:42   All we know is these pictures are out there on the Internet the nature of these type of things like someone stole a [TS]

00:28:45   bunch of stuff some of the ground to the Internet. It's we have no idea. [TS]

00:28:50   But it brings up all the same issues as we've talked about in the past. [TS]

00:28:56   Apple does far has said they have not been able to determine that there is some kind of security flaw like the rate [TS]

00:29:02   limiting thing has been fixed so that's not an issue [TS]

00:29:05   and they investigated it basically their statement was something the fact that there is no like inherent exploit [TS]

00:29:12   or security flaw in like software wise [TS]

00:29:15   or seem to be saying in our system that caused the leaking of these pictures from my guess would be that these pictures [TS]

00:29:23   did not all come from Apple and did not all come from wherever they came from recently. [TS]

00:29:28   That theory that I've read [TS]

00:29:29   and again this is just a theory is not a fact that sounds plausible to me is that there is sort of an underground [TS]

00:29:36   trading ring of you know illegally stolen digital data that is fetched from servers where people have backups [TS]

00:29:44   or whatever and this was just a leak out of that sort of little circle of people trading this legally acquired data. [TS]

00:29:51   So it's you know there's all these are leaks self out there. [TS]

00:29:55   They're not they're not leaked from the people who took the photos they were stolen from the people who took the photos [TS]

00:29:59   and then. [TS]

00:30:00   People who stole them kept them turned selves in a little ring [TS]

00:30:02   and they were leaked out of that ring that is the theory [TS]

00:30:04   and it seems like a plausible theory to me because that type of sort of illegal software [TS]

00:30:08   or illegally acquired digital goods being sort of a secret inner circle [TS]

00:30:12   and then being pierced by somebody who let something out in the inner circles revealed that sounds like a thing that [TS]

00:30:18   you know I've seen before on the Internet and that sounds plausible all of this is that people want to do. [TS]

00:30:23   The question is how did all these pictures get from the people's phones to the possession of the people who stole them [TS]

00:30:31   and that's where we get in to talk about Apple talk about security flaws. [TS]

00:30:36   Apple is so big Surely some of these things came from Apple. [TS]

00:30:39   We've been through this before with him that was his last name Matt Honan. Yep yep. [TS]

00:30:43   That you know the security flaws that we would talk about in the very worst ones are not technical flaws it's like you [TS]

00:30:50   know don't read Kevin Mitnick spoke like it's social engineering. [TS]

00:30:54   The fact that you can call someone on the phone pretend to be someone else answer their supposed security questions [TS]

00:30:59   that you can just look up on the internet about them like where they grew up or where they went to school [TS]

00:31:04   or what their mother's maiden name is of whatever and get their password right [TS]

00:31:09   and so that no matter how strong your password is no matter how bug free Apple security software is in the right [TS]

00:31:14   lemming thing is a software bug too but like even if all that was perfect. [TS]

00:31:18   If you can just call someone on the phone and tell a sob story [TS]

00:31:21   and get into their account like What the hell's the point of the rest software [TS]

00:31:25   and that's the most difficult thing you'd like to tell everybody hey everybody make sure you have good passwords don't [TS]

00:31:30   use your best of all the but it doesn't matter if someone does call back and get all your crap anyway. [TS]

00:31:33   And what they're getting is usually like a backup of your phone like the i Cloud backup of your phone. [TS]

00:31:38   And so you know and even that is encrypted for them what they have in there for that and they can decrypt it [TS]

00:31:43   and you know what they get your password they can do everything [TS]

00:31:45   and it's in the interest of if there is a group like this the stealing pictures of celebrities [TS]

00:31:50   and stuff like that it's in their interest not to like go into those accounts and like blackmail them [TS]

00:31:55   or like erase all their stuff they just want to get in get out steal the pictures [TS]

00:31:58   and you know it's going to be going on for. [TS]

00:32:00   Sure has been going on for years and years [TS]

00:32:01   and is not the celebrities it's like everybody with an axe to grind to get somebody to go to one of these little rings [TS]

00:32:05   and say hey can you get me a backup of my ex-girlfriends phone I want to see all her naked pictures [TS]

00:32:10   or whatever it's just this is a criminal enterprise that you know exploiting weaknesses in our systems [TS]

00:32:16   and their weaknesses unfortunately that most customers can't do much about except I guess complain. [TS]

00:32:20   The thing that was most ridiculous [TS]

00:32:23   and surprising to me was that my understanding was a lot of people were blaming the celebrities for using like i Cloud [TS]

00:32:34   with Dropbox and things like that as though it was somehow their fault that somebody went in [TS]

00:32:42   and to your point illegally stole their pictures I know you shouldn't are going to get pictures like Are you kidding me. [TS]

00:32:50   That's like saying well you left your house unlocked so it's your own fault that everything got stalled it's not even [TS]

00:32:55   like it's like well you have your money in a bank what to expect [TS]

00:32:58   when that's not your I have your money in a bank maybe you think twice about using a credit card you know you have you [TS]

00:33:04   got your car stolen Tom That's what you get for having a car I mean this is not like leaving your house unlocked is [TS]

00:33:09   like having a car having a bank account. Everybody has a smartphone. [TS]

00:33:12   It's not an unfortunate bad thing to have everybody take pictures with their smart like it's it's ridiculous it's it's [TS]

00:33:18   completely off the wall [TS]

00:33:20   and I you know that's really this is not really the issue we're getting out here with his eye contact [TS]

00:33:25   but like you're going to really come down to is if you want to go like keep cranking up the medal levels it's the weird [TS]

00:33:33   attitude we have. [TS]

00:33:35   Weird as a species if you look at a really broad view go out to Mars or something but certainly in the U.S. [TS]

00:33:41   It's weird puritanical view of nudity and sex that we have that it's like Tad moon evil and like that. [TS]

00:33:51   The idea that like they're doing something wrong by taking naked pictures of themselves because if you were a good [TS]

00:33:56   person you would not do that and that that's how it's different people. [TS]

00:34:00   Mine think giving money to bank book keeping in mind the bank is one thing [TS]

00:34:02   but taking naked pictures now it's exactly the same thing. [TS]

00:34:05   Two things that are private that your possessions you're allowed to do. It's your money it's your bank account. [TS]

00:34:10   Other people should have access to your photo so there's a photo of your plants your your house your kids you with [TS]

00:34:16   clothes on without clothes on someone's day clothes on it becomes a category of craziness that anyway that's a whole [TS]

00:34:22   we're not going to fix the the problem of the United States and their screwed up attitude toward sex. [TS]

00:34:28   But that is why you get all this craziness. [TS]

00:34:32   You know coming in were people lose their minds about and it's not even worth discussing this stupidity [TS]

00:34:37   but like I think the thing is where this guy thing is forget about what they stole. [TS]

00:34:41   I don't want anybody stealing backups of my phones [TS]

00:34:44   but I don't care what them you know like it's that's that's what we have to address here [TS]

00:34:48   and I just I wish Apple would work harder to I mean like so riveted a post about how the how the backups you know the [TS]

00:35:01   backups are a good thing because people are much more likely to lose all their photos of their kids because their [TS]

00:35:06   phones on the lake and they are to get hacked [TS]

00:35:08   and so it's a tradeoff between well if you just never do like live backups you're safe from hacking [TS]

00:35:13   but you could lose all your pictures [TS]

00:35:14   and you're much more likely to lose all your pictures your kids than you are to get hacked [TS]

00:35:19   and the other tradeoff isn't any security thing it's convenience versus security. [TS]

00:35:23   If they didn't have the stupid you know tell me your mother's maiden name in the high school you went to things people [TS]

00:35:28   would get locked out of their towns [TS]

00:35:29   and they'd be like Apple like well sorry you lost your password we never knew which a password you can get [TS]

00:35:33   and you have to raise your phone or you know be like Are you kidding me you know like the knee. [TS]

00:35:38   People forget their passwords like crazy [TS]

00:35:40   and so Apple is trying in the same terrible way that arouses doing to make it so that people aren't locked out of their [TS]

00:35:46   phones when they never really forget their password. [TS]

00:35:49   But what is it that you can replace a password with that is as secure as a password [TS]

00:35:53   or more secure that people won't forget. Like there's no good solution for that except for maybe a touch ID or. [TS]

00:36:00   I think if I had to advise Apple on how to address this I would go more towards like the other systems that we have for [TS]

00:36:08   identity. [TS]

00:36:08   Like I don't do a video call or somebody [TS]

00:36:11   and record a video of them get in touch with them make them prove through a trusted third party that they are really [TS]

00:36:16   are some sort of really annoying process that if you were concerned about security you could prove to them in a in a [TS]

00:36:22   way in many different factors that you were who you were. [TS]

00:36:25   And then if someone wanted to reset their password they would have to reproduce that extremely annoying you know proof [TS]

00:36:34   that you are you are. But most people don't want to do that. [TS]

00:36:37   And so Apple is kind of trying to aim for the correct balance between security [TS]

00:36:42   and convenience that inconveniences the fewest number of people but it is it is a trade off [TS]

00:36:47   and it's an imperfect trade off and it's an increasingly imperfect trade off [TS]

00:36:51   when now it's so easy to find out the answers to people's security questions but is like trolling their Facebook [TS]

00:36:56   and stuff. Yeah. And I'm glad you jumped on me a few minutes ago in saying that it's like leaving your house unlocked. [TS]

00:37:03   That was an unfair analogy [TS]

00:37:04   and you're absolutely right that these people did nothing wrong either by means of a flaw in Apple's systems [TS]

00:37:11   or perhaps some social engineering they had something they had something stole from them and stolen from them. [TS]

00:37:18   And that's just not fair. [TS]

00:37:19   And the one interesting thing to me is that when the Internet decided that this was all Apple [TS]

00:37:27   and i Cloud fall nobody seemed to think that was a surprising and that's a problem. [TS]

00:37:36   Like if everyone if there's this great huge security leak and everyone says oh well you know that cycle out. [TS]

00:37:43   Like that's a big freakin problem. And a branding problem. I mean right. Yeah. And that's exactly right. [TS]

00:37:51   And here it is presumably with I was late coming on Tuesday. [TS]

00:37:56   Well you know being talked about on Tuesday and presumably. [TS]

00:38:00   They're going to talk about a lot of this photos in the cloud stuff that they talked about a D.C. [TS]

00:38:04   This is a this is not a good time for this to be happening and so I just I just feel like at some point [TS]

00:38:12   and I know we've said this thousand times at some point Apple's going to have to get really serious about their their [TS]

00:38:19   cloud services but in this regard it's not like the parts where they're not going to go to online services. [TS]

00:38:24   This is thing where a seriousness will not like it won't save them it's not like there is something that other [TS]

00:38:30   companies know how to do that Apple is refusing to do [TS]

00:38:32   or as bad there is no good solution in this like two factor authentication where you where you have to authenticate not [TS]

00:38:38   just with a password or something else that you possess either they text your phone or [TS]

00:38:42   or someone point out today it's kind of ridiculous with the S.M.S. [TS]

00:38:44   Gateway on the on the mac thing that techs will also appear on your back so someone has either thier mac [TS]

00:38:49   and travel ID they can get that text too but anyway two factor authentication helps [TS]

00:38:53   but the reason it's like well why doesn't everybody to factor into factor. [TS]

00:38:56   You kidding people can you remember the passwords to factor still to competence the balancing security [TS]

00:39:01   and convenience [TS]

00:39:02   and the current balanced in security is already for most people's perspectives pushed too far into the side of security [TS]

00:39:08   all these passwords they have to remember it's a crappy system. [TS]

00:39:11   Touch I think helps because that's that's a security convenience thing where they can give you additional security [TS]

00:39:16   and also a lot of additional convenience of not the usual trade off that you can do there [TS]

00:39:19   but there is not some obvious thing that Apple can do like boiling apples more serious like the reason it's so easy to [TS]

00:39:25   hack your account is because it has to be that easy for all the people who forget their passwords [TS]

00:39:29   and then just probably like thousands and thousands of them every day. [TS]

00:39:32   Forget their passwords and use that system for its legitimate purposes. [TS]

00:39:35   Who'd you pissed off if they couldn't like you can't tell somebody well all your stuff is you know you forgot your [TS]

00:39:40   password you don't remember where is your backup is encrypted no one else going to decrypt about you then you've lost [TS]

00:39:46   all the pictures of your kids again I go I can prove that I mean like we don't know who you are you have nothing you [TS]

00:39:52   know [TS]

00:39:52   and so that's why I think like you have to it has to be a social sort of a change in society to realize that if you care [TS]

00:39:59   about you. [TS]

00:40:00   Stuff online you have to protect it in a way that is inconvenient for you in terms of proving who you really are [TS]

00:40:06   and at the very least start with having system the two factors One example that if you care about it you can go through [TS]

00:40:10   a two factor [TS]

00:40:12   and go through the hassle for the increased security they should have a step up from that that involves like [TS]

00:40:18   authenticating who you are in every possible way using all technology in our disposal and the legal system [TS]

00:40:22   and everything else to really really prove you are where you are [TS]

00:40:25   and to also quote Ben Thompson he wrote a piece today which is in the chat room over in the show notes about how [TS]

00:40:35   and I think the way he phrased it is really good. [TS]

00:40:38   The problem is that Apple has no reservoir of goodwill when it comes to i Cloud And in this case it may [TS]

00:40:45   or may not even be that i Cloud was the issue. [TS]

00:40:48   It may be to your point John a bunch of really really great social engineering [TS]

00:40:52   but that still let's talk about I mean social engineering of Apple's affair. [TS]

00:40:56   So yeah I guess what I'm saying is if it could be that i Cloud was reasonably proficiency at blocking these sorts of [TS]

00:41:06   attacks I'm not saying it is or it isn't but it could be that it was yet because we all know in this [TS]

00:41:12   or assume that i Cloud is a steaming pile of crap. As soon as somebody theorize that i Cloud is the problem. [TS]

00:41:19   The entire internet decided it must be i Cloud because people because people can't differentiate between like well [TS]

00:41:25   their services are [TS]

00:41:26   and responsive in their up time is bad versus like security flaws versus a fledging Yeah you're right it just goes all [TS]

00:41:31   in the same bin and the fact it is i Phones [TS]

00:41:33   or popular i Phones are popular with celebrities celebrities are you know like because who knows where these pictures [TS]

00:41:38   came from some of them surely came from I thought some of them surely came other places doesn't matter just really [TS]

00:41:42   matters what's the headline the story. But I mean Apple can. [TS]

00:41:46   I'm sure Apple won't make reference to this I'm assuming they won't [TS]

00:41:49   but like all talk about this in a bit on the September ninth event when they're going to introduce a new i Phones [TS]

00:41:56   or you know Touch ID is a step in the right direction with this. [TS]

00:42:00   Granted you can fool it is not as secure as whatever involved but it's it's an additional factor right. [TS]

00:42:05   And they have you know existing two factor authentication like Apple is clearly trying to find ways to make things more [TS]

00:42:12   secure and more convenient. [TS]

00:42:14   Instead of just saying OK we'll give you like what I was suggesting which is like make it more secure [TS]

00:42:18   and less convenient for the people who need that security like give them the option. [TS]

00:42:23   Another thing I have you know in response to this as I usually do like well to have general password again like I just [TS]

00:42:28   you know why not make it even more ridiculous anyway. [TS]

00:42:32   When I was doing that when I tried to log log into my apple idea like Apple [TS]

00:42:39   or something I said what I was originally going in was to see what my security questions were to make sure they weren't [TS]

00:42:45   like make sure they were nonsense basically and not the truth [TS]

00:42:49   or something coming to look up because they only give you a choice of like questions that anybody can look up [TS]

00:42:53   and it wouldn't even let me into my account like let me see my security questions [TS]

00:42:57   or anything about my car because soon as I logged in it said Your password is too insecure please set a new one I got I [TS]

00:43:03   couldn't get any of my the resource you can see my e-mail address can see my mailing address my payment info I You [TS]

00:43:08   couldn't get to the interface and he said everything worked fine I could still log in and use all my stuff [TS]

00:43:12   but trying to you know manage your Apple I.D. [TS]

00:43:15   They are apparently trying to enforce better passwords by detail by deciding whose password is [TS]

00:43:20   or isn't secure so you know I change my password to make it more secure. [TS]

00:43:24   I also looked at by security questions [TS]

00:43:26   and you know you know that it does security best you can do that I don't know how much that protects me. [TS]

00:43:30   If someone is really smooth at the bad you know telephone rep they can probably still social engineer their way in. [TS]

00:43:37   But yeah I mean and to factor helps but you know security is a constant battle [TS]

00:43:43   and you know we can we can all keep talking about how you know Apple could add all these things in to make things more [TS]

00:43:48   secure give us options to lock things down more tightly and everything [TS]

00:43:52   but one of the biggest problems is if these things are not the default or the only way to do things then they're not. [TS]

00:44:00   Really going to protect most people [TS]

00:44:01   and you know most most of the celebrities who were targeted for this for this mass theft over whatever amount time it [TS]

00:44:08   was. They would be a good portion of them probably would have all their phones on whatever the default settings were. [TS]

00:44:16   And so unless you make the default crazy complicated and make that the only option. [TS]

00:44:23   Having the options is not going to really help most people. [TS]

00:44:26   Well celebrities might be motivated to like him a word to get around among celebrities like when you get an i Phone [TS]

00:44:32   and ask you if you want to use your fingerprint as a second factor say yes like you know this this type of thing is [TS]

00:44:37   something for people who are like targeted by likely be targeted by these attacks even if they're not tech savvy as an [TS]

00:44:43   example to the pretty good job of like during your like phone set up dates like you should set a password. [TS]

00:44:49   PASCOE And if you try to know it like Are you sure you don't have a pass code [TS]

00:44:51   and same thing with such ideas like they're trying to encourage people to be more secure [TS]

00:44:56   and I think socially within groups of people who feel they are targeted for potential hacks have some motivation to [TS]

00:45:02   talk amongst themselves. [TS]

00:45:03   Yes you you know your phone doesn't have like like lock your phone doesn't have a lock code you can tell I have a lock [TS]

00:45:08   or your phone doesn't also use touch you could totally use that you know. [TS]

00:45:11   So there's hope there I think we're so breaking news as we're recording on this Thursday night. [TS]

00:45:19   Apparently Tim Cook has given a statement [TS]

00:45:22   or interview of some sort to The Wall Street Journal because the Wall Street Journal is a bunch of idiots who thinks [TS]

00:45:28   that they have to block all their content. [TS]

00:45:31   All I can read the following in his first interview on the subject Apple chief executive Tim Cook said slip now it's [TS]

00:45:38   getting really really hard to read celebrities i Cloud accounts were compromised [TS]

00:45:43   when the hackers correctly answer security questions to obtain their passwords or [TS]

00:45:47   when they were victimized by a thank you. [TS]

00:45:49   I deleted the thing on the diamond SPECTER So I had to first [TS]

00:45:54   and try to pay all that actually don't put the whole text there which is a shame the Google trick still works. [TS]

00:45:58   I tried that. Work for me. Maybe it's easier if I paste this into our Skype chat is that copyright infringement. [TS]

00:46:05   Now go ahead but I don't think we need to read it but anyway you can but you don't put a link to it [TS]

00:46:09   and do it do whatever on the website you had as you just put a link to the Google you know results of people going [TS]

00:46:14   anywhere like they said enough on our software other than the rate limiting which obviously they fixed [TS]

00:46:18   and you know they found. I'm not surprised they found us that like they can find. [TS]

00:46:23   OK Pick some celebrities account with their permission say we'd like to investigate how you got hacked. [TS]

00:46:27   Find out how they got hacked with some I called Apple Support Line. [TS]

00:46:30   Answer the security questions got their stuff [TS]

00:46:32   and that's exactly what I was talking about like that that's not the security questions are less secure than a password [TS]

00:46:38   and intentionally so. [TS]

00:46:39   Because when you forgot your password they want you to have some way to get your stuff back [TS]

00:46:44   and if you forgot your password we need to have something that you are less likely forget you're less less likely to [TS]

00:46:48   forget who your second grade teacher was right then you are to have your password [TS]

00:46:51   but it's also easy to get like it's you know it's a trade off [TS]

00:46:55   and it is a very bad trade off for people who could potentially be targeted so I think Apple is working in the right [TS]

00:47:01   direction over there with the biometric stuff [TS]

00:47:03   and I think they should continue to go even farther in those even though little pictures video voiceprint like we can [TS]

00:47:08   prove to each other more a last couple generations having difficulty proving to each other that we are who we are [TS]

00:47:15   because we have a distinctive look people recognize us. [TS]

00:47:18   Eventually there's enough social proof that you are more common to people see you [TS]

00:47:22   and say Sam you don't have a twin brother as far as we know you know [TS]

00:47:26   and I think surgery is not good enough to match you exactly we don't have holograms like we're in a place where we can [TS]

00:47:31   prove you are you are we just need to convey more than ever [TS]

00:47:35   and we have the thing is we have the technology to convey more of that information about proving who you are. [TS]

00:47:39   We have video we have audio we have touch sensors we can make this happen. [TS]

00:47:44   Our final sponsor this week is Lynda dot com L Y N D A dot com When the dot com poll she learning keep up to date with [TS]

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00:48:12   or whatever the case. [TS]

00:48:13   All these things Lynda dot com has thousands of video courses on a huge variety of topics they have over twenty four [TS]

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00:48:33   I learned a lot about how to edit my podcast our podcast in logic [TS]

00:48:38   and it was really very very good I can't say enough good things about the quality of the material. [TS]

00:48:44   Lynda dot com has courses for all experience levels beginner to advanced [TS]

00:48:49   and specialty overview all all huge variety here. [TS]

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00:49:00   COM library as much as you can watch twenty five bucks a month for unlimited access you can't beat that within the dot [TS]

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00:49:11   time there's like a new version of Creative Suite [TS]

00:49:13   or work Creative Cloud as it is now a new version of Microsoft Office whenever these things happen. [TS]

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00:49:46   They even have a higher tiered premium plan where you can download them for offline watching on your i Pad [TS]

00:49:53   or i Phone and I think Evander is supported here. Yes yes it is. OK So anyway you can also download. [TS]

00:50:00   Project files are the premium when you can download example files it's really great. [TS]

00:50:04   Anyway court is restructured so you can learn from start to finish. [TS]

00:50:06   Or you can jump in to find a quick answer there's a great indexing of the content you can click on any phrase you can [TS]

00:50:12   see a transcript on the side you can click on it jump to that point in the video. [TS]

00:50:16   Now the great thing is you can try this for free they have a free trial offer here for seven days are going to Lynda [TS]

00:50:21   dot com That's L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. and You'll get a free seven day trial once again. [TS]

00:50:29   When the dot com L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

00:50:33   For a free seventy trial check out Linda for these great video tutorials. I cannot recommend them enough. [TS]

00:50:38   I've used them myself and they're fantastic thank you very much. [TS]

00:50:41   So we're recording this on Thursday the fourth will hopefully be out on Friday the fifth maybe Saturday the sixth [TS]

00:50:49   and on the ninth. [TS]

00:50:51   Apple is releasing something new so it would be wrong of us to not to at least spend a few moments discussing what we [TS]

00:51:01   expect to see. So Marco What do you expect to see. [TS]

00:51:05   I mean there's the obvious stuff that's the stuff that like the rumor sites have basically you know there's been enough [TS]

00:51:11   smoke [TS]

00:51:11   and enough parts leaks to tough we've seen videos of assembled purported i Phone six is right that one even powered on [TS]

00:51:20   and showed the firmware update screen. [TS]

00:51:24   Yes I think if you can boot a new i Phone in to be a few mode I think it's probably confirmation that it exists. [TS]

00:51:31   I think it's pretty clear we're getting a four point seven inch i Phone six at the bare minimum Now hold on I'm not [TS]

00:51:38   trying to be funny. [TS]

00:51:38   The thing in the video that was the four point seven inch because that thing looked huge to me though that we haven't [TS]

00:51:44   seen it. [TS]

00:51:45   We've seen almost nothing from a five point five inch I believe somebody's got a back panel like a couple days ago [TS]

00:51:50   or something that might be ferment [TS]

00:51:51   but we've seen in general we've seen effectively nothing about the five point five I saw this device this new purported [TS]

00:51:59   do i Phone in this. [TS]

00:52:00   Person's hand and I thought it looked enormous and if that's the four point five four point seven whatever it is. [TS]

00:52:05   Man I don't know if I can handle that. [TS]

00:52:07   Say work were close enough to the event now that of the five point five wasn't a real thing. [TS]

00:52:12   You would have you would think that Apple would do that thing it does where it gets the message out that maybe a five [TS]

00:52:17   point five is not a real thing right like so there would be a leaked report on Bloomberg the U.S.G.S. [TS]

00:52:22   Saying like Oh well actually even even not lad like they they can make their official statements [TS]

00:52:28   or statements through people that liked that member like remember the W.C. [TS]

00:52:31   when They were going to have hardware that made it clear they were going to have hardware that they're going to have [TS]

00:52:34   hardware. Yeah yeah they don't care in the months leading up to a right before the event. [TS]

00:52:39   I feel like there was in going to be two sizes of i Phones big an even bigger. They would have been saying some things. [TS]

00:52:46   Yeah like getting the word out so I'm I'm I'm with Marco four point seven five point five i Phones I'm I'm also totally [TS]

00:52:53   in agreement that everyone has said that the five of us could be more expensive. [TS]

00:52:57   Not just because they wanted differentiable because it's the bigger screen cost more money bigger batteries cost more [TS]

00:53:02   money and that's a lot of the cost of the phone is in the screen in a battery. So yeah those are the easy ones. [TS]

00:53:09   Yeah there's been a couple of recent very recent rumors like in the last couple days saying that both the that the i [TS]

00:53:15   Pad air to be unveiled. So a new i Pad air with like an anti-glare screen which sounds interesting and better touch I.D. [TS]

00:53:23   Sensor like second generation touch ready sensor that than the i Pad will get [TS]

00:53:27   and then the the phone of course we're going to do well. [TS]

00:53:29   And another recent rumors that the wearable device will be announced [TS]

00:53:33   but it won't ship until next year so there's a whole bunch of recent craziness surrounding this event. [TS]

00:53:39   They're also building that that giant white structure that I think the most plausible speculation people have had it is [TS]

00:53:45   actually a concert venue for you to to perform. [TS]

00:53:49   Who knows what we do know is that anything we say in this show predicting what's going to be there beyond a new i Phone [TS]

00:53:58   We're probably going to look back at next week. [TS]

00:54:00   Because well I don't you think we can all be safe in saying that there is a better than fifty fifty chance that they're [TS]

00:54:07   going to announce a wearable. I don't think so. [TS]

00:54:11   I feel safe in saying that just because if this was going to be only an i Phone event the invitation would have been [TS]

00:54:17   more forthcoming. [TS]

00:54:17   Did you see they have that account down page for the live stream [TS]

00:54:21   and it's like they're so much more like their how they're hyping this up a lot. [TS]

00:54:24   Apple is hyping this up more than usual right [TS]

00:54:26   and it's a giant venue that they like the Flint Center is way bigger than the normal venue they invited like tons of [TS]

00:54:32   press to this thing it is it's not like in the little town hall it's not in the it's a huge venue they're building this [TS]

00:54:39   big structure which you know why I assume is going to be there be like it's not the events not going to be there so [TS]

00:54:45   it's likely there are hands on area or you to consider like you know who knows what it's like. [TS]

00:54:51   It seems like a much bigger deal and you wouldn't do this if it was just a bunch of i Phones [TS]

00:54:55   or even if it was i Phones and i Pads and so what are we expecting from Apple wearables or T.V. Thing T.V. [TS]

00:55:00   Thing doesn't seem like it's in the cards I have heard much smoke about that. [TS]

00:55:03   So you got to say a wearable thing and [TS]

00:55:06   and I also agree with the rumors that say it probably won't ship because shipping will be single leaks like they do [TS]

00:55:11   that they get to do the same thing at it with the original i Phone way pre-announce it because it's not like you're [TS]

00:55:16   killing sales of an existing product. Right after new all those government F.C.C. [TS]

00:55:19   Stuff and other things that will cause it to leak and post manufacturing [TS]

00:55:22   and design things so you know announce it first. Problem solved. [TS]

00:55:26   Well [TS]

00:55:27   and also I think this like so far you know if Apple makes any new products we see partly it's like if they make anything [TS]

00:55:35   that's a bet that's going to ship imminently. [TS]

00:55:37   We see parts we can advance because they're making things at such big scale that people that people care about things [TS]

00:55:42   that people care about because not enough people cared about the mac pro [TS]

00:55:45   and that they also weren't making that in massive volumes like that. [TS]

00:55:50   Yeah you know but you don't see like leaks of new IMAX and [TS]

00:55:53   or remember the matter of laptops their bestselling laptops it's like man I don't really know really cares I hope [TS]

00:55:58   but again you know the volume the. [TS]

00:56:00   There that they're producing they're like you know they sell so many i Phones that they can't keep an eye for under [TS]

00:56:05   wraps during the massive ramp up of getting the manufacturing going before lunch. [TS]

00:56:08   But [TS]

00:56:09   and so they definitely run the same risk with a wearable thing that if they release a compelling wearable device they're [TS]

00:56:16   probably going to sell about ten of them very very shortly after launch [TS]

00:56:19   and so the especially you know well we're going to miss the holiday season [TS]

00:56:22   but regardless they're going to sell a ton of them [TS]

00:56:24   and so they're probably announcing it very far in advance if that is indeed what they're doing. [TS]

00:56:30   Just so they can control the reveal of it you know if it crushes them when they [TS]

00:56:35   when they have this cool big secret thing [TS]

00:56:37   and then the you know the Internet ruins it with parts leaks in months ahead of time or weeks ahead of time. [TS]

00:56:41   I'm sure Apple wants to control every bit of the narrative of how this new device if it exists sounds like we do exist [TS]

00:56:49   of how this device is unveiled to the world [TS]

00:56:51   and you know suppose we've got to partly suppose some rumor site had some picture of some like you know a wrist cuff [TS]

00:57:00   with the with the screen in the top and of the Apple logo on the back and and that's all we knew about it. [TS]

00:57:05   You know that would be you know anti-climactic at least and [TS]

00:57:10   and you know possibly underwhelming it's like oh well they're just making something that looks like a nice smart watch [TS]

00:57:16   and that's all they would know and like that the whole narrative would be controlled by the rumor cycle and the [TS]

00:57:21   and the speculative press whereas if they have this event to show it off to us for the first time they control [TS]

00:57:26   everything about how it's perceived. They set the tone they set the talking points. [TS]

00:57:30   They tell us why it's so cool [TS]

00:57:32   and then we get to go around telling everyone else their talking points about why it's so cool that's so much better [TS]

00:57:38   than trying to fight with the leaks and trying to stay ahead of the of the P.R. [TS]

00:57:42   On those so I think it's very clear why they would do something this very far in advance for a brand new kind of device [TS]

00:57:49   like this a kind of think of when they did it. [TS]

00:57:52   There's no existing product you get to do it because you get a print out because you know killing sales of existing [TS]

00:57:56   products but then if it is an existing one like the phones like this. It's like I think the last one I can remember. [TS]

00:58:02   Well this is still in a result I think was going to say like the original i Pad didn't leak. [TS]

00:58:06   People cared about the i Pad people cared a lot about the tablet [TS]

00:58:10   and I think they announced that not too long before I went on sale but we had no leak [TS]

00:58:15   and another there was that much alike. [TS]

00:58:16   It's you know tablets today the whole issue is like what's going to be on the screen but yet like [TS]

00:58:21   when they've had to combat leaks like I think about the five S. [TS]

00:58:24   Like there was going to be gold one we already knew was going to be go home I saw all the parts they had in their [TS]

00:58:29   presentation they had to sort of work their magic to say I know you've seen lots of pictures of this gold back plate [TS]

00:58:34   and you've seen it compared [TS]

00:58:35   and different things you see the darker role one of these in a wider goal the one I'm using next to the gray one [TS]

00:58:39   and using different color blacks [TS]

00:58:40   but we're going to show you a nice highly produced video with this liquid gold melting stuff [TS]

00:58:44   and tell you why it's Graydon but John and I have up there to tilt his head [TS]

00:58:47   and tell you about the diamond cut chamfer and also has a sham for and it will be great [TS]

00:58:52   and you will forget all about the other stuff and you kind of do forget [TS]

00:58:56   but you're right Marco it's so much better to not have any of that to compete with [TS]

00:59:01   and just say your first your first picture your first introduction to this thing will be through marketing materials [TS]

00:59:07   that we have vetted. [TS]

00:59:08   You'll see it in the best light in the context we want you to see it in the purposes we think is the thing is going to [TS]

00:59:13   do [TS]

00:59:13   and by the way speaking of our Because a lot of people in chat room talking about oh you want to better authentication [TS]

00:59:18   for i Cloud Security Well this response might help. Yeah it might. But does touch I.D. Sensor. [TS]

00:59:23   I'm not sure something that strapped on to a restaurant [TS]

00:59:25   and the other part of your body has any better access to proving you are who you are OTHER THAN the same ways that a [TS]

00:59:31   phone or video or some other thing can [TS]

00:59:33   but anyway that's that's an angle we can look for these it's interesting to me that Apple is gone is so enthusiastic to [TS]

00:59:46   have put up a countdown like it seems so not happily to me to put up this countdown like this I mean generally speaking [TS]

00:59:55   my impression of Apple is they come out of nowhere and just drops. [TS]

01:00:00   Palm in say hey this thing you never knew you wanted. [TS]

01:00:04   Not only is it a thing but just what you wanted [TS]

01:00:07   and it's surprising to me to see this countdown basically saying this thing that we all know we're probably going to [TS]

01:00:14   talk about we're going to talk about it and forty S. [TS]

01:00:17   Fourteen hours forty nine minutes and four seconds on the kind of downs before like. [TS]

01:00:21   Keep in mind this is account on a page where the only line is wish we could say more like they don't even give you like [TS]

01:00:26   a bad pun [TS]

01:00:27   or hint there like they've gone so far as to make a little twisting Apple thing to show a little lion behind the back [TS]

01:00:34   of them acting like they ought to give you some kind of they even at the handling make sense in retrospect. [TS]

01:00:38   This one I like you did nothing to get a white Apple over the hole [TS]

01:00:41   and you get a statement that could only be construed of it's like I wish we could make Siri say more things are some [TS]

01:00:47   B.S. [TS]

01:00:48   Script stuff like that like we were just desperate to try to mine any no good immigration [TS]

01:00:51   but they're essentially saying you know I know that you know that I know that you know that I have not I got you know [TS]

01:00:59   and that's and really like the stakes in this could not be higher. First of all putting aside like the port C.E.O. [TS]

01:01:06   If it who's going to be watching I think you are saying [TS]

01:01:09   and putting aside that this is kind of the you know this is Tim Cook's like not going to say make it [TS]

01:01:15   or break it moment but this is an important moment for Tim Cook Apple because previously the big plane was yeah. [TS]

01:01:20   Find Jimmy doing well with a company in stock prices like doubled or whatever things you do go over [TS]

01:01:25   and sell more than ever but how can you have a revolutionize the whatever world [TS]

01:01:29   and you know where's the i Watch where is right the world so he was going to be a new product categories talked about [TS]

01:01:35   it for a long time he's been talking about it probably too long. [TS]

01:01:38   If it happens it seems very likely to happen now or sometime this year [TS]

01:01:43   and so this is you know people are going to look at this [TS]

01:01:46   and say OK well finally Apple enters a new product category under Tim Cook. [TS]

01:01:52   Does it look like it's good to look like it's going to going to be popular does look like a stinker. [TS]

01:01:56   People and even then like you know people bought the i Pad was a stinker too. [TS]

01:02:00   And that sold pretty well so this is an important moment for Apple and for Tim Cook [TS]

01:02:06   and it will be an important rest of the year especially Klingon ship of the next year to really know until like the [TS]

01:02:11   first big burst of people who are desperate to have this thing get it and the reviews come in [TS]

01:02:15   and you know the whole nine yards. So it's an interesting time. [TS]

01:02:19   The other interesting thing to me [TS]

01:02:20   and we alluded to this earlier was a dear friend of the show underscored David Smith pointed out the relative seating [TS]

01:02:28   capacity of Apple event venues the campus town hall three hundred one point a center seven hundred fifty seven Flint [TS]

01:02:37   Center where Tuesday's event is happening two thousand four hundred five. [TS]

01:02:43   I mean obviously like you both said earlier this is they Apple is of the opinion that this is going to be big. [TS]

01:02:50   If you look at the things that were released in the Flint Center someone tweeted that as well I think it was like the [TS]

01:02:54   original Mac. The IMAX and then some product it was totally forgettable. [TS]

01:02:58   You know it's a bigger venue that's all you know it's like it's way bigger [TS]

01:03:02   and sunny because it's obvious I mean they they built a whole temporary building like something is going down here [TS]

01:03:06   and if they do this just drive onto would be a terrible strategic blunder. [TS]

01:03:10   So I think it's not going to be I thought they are going to be great you know I'm sure they will. [TS]

01:03:15   And very interesting and by the way we do need to mention N.F.C. Near field communication. [TS]

01:03:19   You know end of the wireless thing that lets you not touch your phone to something to sort of bring in nearby to sort [TS]

01:03:25   of swipe over Apple's payment system that they're working on as more [TS]

01:03:28   and more rumors about that of you know the deal they're making with the gravitas most of the deals they're making with [TS]

01:03:33   the banks to lower the fees to make you know like it's all like all the things that we we talk about N.F.C. [TS]

01:03:39   and I Phones for years now and now it looks like it might actually come to pass [TS]

01:03:43   and that could be integrated with some sort of thing that you wear as well so there's a lot of long rumored things [TS]

01:03:48   coming to a head in this September ninth event. [TS]

01:03:52   Yeah I think it's going to be as big as they're hyping up to be because I don't I think Apple is smart enough to know [TS]

01:03:59   now. The hype of something that ends up being other i Pod Hi-Fi. [TS]

01:04:02   Yeah and and by the way size of the invite a lot of people I got invited to the event as well [TS]

01:04:07   and much to the chagrin of everybody who knows me I will not be at the event. I'll come on really well are the worst. [TS]

01:04:12   Yeah I know you all hated much right now. [TS]

01:04:15   I mean yeah that's that's just a you know they're probably they'll be plenty of people there to cover it. [TS]

01:04:22   If I went I wouldn't be covering it it would just you know are the transferable tickets because if no I do not yet [TS]

01:04:28   there's nothing transferable Believe me this will be a well covered event it will be live streamed delegates if this [TS]

01:04:34   ends up being something really major and like of historic value you could have gone and you [TS]

01:04:39   and you're not going to go back in time to the original Mac. Intro maybe I would go. [TS]

01:04:44   I've seen a lot of that you know like maybe I'll regret it you're right but like I am an exciting [TS]

01:04:49   and important as the wearable is to Apple. [TS]

01:04:51   Thus far I am not particularly personally excited about a wearable right here I think that I don't have an i Phone I [TS]

01:05:01   could I could get end up getting this i Phone am I going to get a watch Casey and I will watch your kids. [TS]

01:05:07   We will go to your house and watch your good it's expense and I think time off work and we will buy your ticket. [TS]

01:05:13   Yeah honestly I am I I we lived through it are it's all that ongoing [TS]

01:05:18   and I go I would go halves these with Marco on your ticket just to send your butt out there. You're the worst. [TS]

01:05:26   Anyway I will be watching it live with the rest of the world [TS]

01:05:29   and I will get the experience the same way I don't need to I don't need to be with the people who are actually covered [TS]

01:05:34   but I wouldn't be covering the event like what I'm going to have you know really see I am doing something functional [TS]

01:05:39   there I'm not just there for you know for my own edification I'm there to do research for a view that I then do so. [TS]

01:05:48   Do you do anything for fun I do know her well. Anyway. [TS]

01:06:00   Now if you're not a hook yet you have to tell us what you can both answer this question for me I am confident. [TS]

01:06:07   What do you do anything for fun. Yeah. [TS]

01:06:08   Names and handlers know no names are they going to move on I guess you might play video games. [TS]

01:06:14   You're one of the other I think a long time and I want to know what people are going to what else do I do for fun. [TS]

01:06:20   You can think of. You watch a lot of T.V. [TS]

01:06:22   and Movies that I quote [TS]

01:06:24   but you don't know those who want to get angry with me sir I was very like what did you do for fun like I passed. [TS]

01:06:31   I don't wish for things that I do ever funny I can't think of anything at all I know is so my dad used to have I guess [TS]

01:06:41   they were like season tickets to the Fillmore East which I think was somewhere in either in New York city [TS]

01:06:46   or suburb of New York City years ago and he had like tickets to freaking every concert that was going on there [TS]

01:06:53   and I think it was a New Year's Eve show or something like that that Jimi Hendrix was playing [TS]

01:06:58   and he thought well I'll see him another time and let me tell you my dad I think this was like [TS]

01:07:22   when he was roughly twenty when this was an option for him. [TS]

01:07:25   He is just barely over sixty now [TS]

01:07:27   and he's still complaining about the fact that he didn't go to that Jimi Hendrix concert [TS]

01:07:32   but no John you do what you think well OK see I did see Steve Jobs's last you know in person. [TS]

01:07:38   Keeping these devices in sync was driving us crazy. [TS]

01:07:42   I was sitting next to you [TS]

01:07:45   and Marco So I feel like I didn't miss out on that if this is going to last you know that I am a certain person I'll be [TS]

01:07:52   OK with it. You are the worst. [TS]

01:07:54   I had a chance to go to the Phish concert with the giant meat stick a few years ago that New Year's Eve concert. [TS]

01:07:59   Somebody offered. [TS]

01:08:00   No there is you know is about as far south america is terrible and now Ben Thompson's in the chat taunting Marco [TS]

01:08:18   and I saying oh wow I got an invite to you but I don't think it's worth flying twenty six. You people are terrible. [TS]

01:08:23   Another person is not going it's like you know we're going to I'm going to see the announcement in real time so I'm not [TS]

01:08:28   going to know about it's not a secret thing of happening every We're all going to see it. [TS]

01:08:31   I'll probably have a better view here than I would in that giant auditoriums. [TS]

01:08:36   It's not like I'm going to get a review unit it's not like I'm going to write a review I'm not even going to cover the [TS]

01:08:40   event there's no reason for me to be there. Well you could you would probably be invited to the hands on area at least. [TS]

01:08:45   Yes they spend five seconds with that until what Mossberg slaps and the way I don't know I know I know [TS]

01:08:53   but I want to dance on or of the nose. See you again. I don't know if it'll be fine. Trust me it'll be OK. [TS]

01:09:01   So angry at you. And we don. I'm so angry. [TS]

01:09:08   Oh my God this is the worst that we have they have to show to get to as I say we're done [TS]

01:09:12   and I feel I feel they are going to be I'll save others a dominant event last chance to get in productions I have [TS]

01:09:18   nothing bright to say. I'm so angry right now it's clouding my ability to think. Thanks to other responses. [TS]

01:09:27   Harry's Squarespace and Linda dot com and we'll see you next week. [TS]

01:09:32   When John is not going to this event to be it was accidental and he is sort of. [TS]

01:10:00   Now today for this sister that the that said there are so glad you didn't know this Casey has been yelling at me all [TS]

01:10:41   week about it I didn't realize you had never known it was only on you to know this Margo it seems like you didn't know [TS]

01:10:46   I knew I would save in my rage. Good job saving it. All I know is I see this is not a joke. [TS]

01:10:55   When you told me originally which was around a week ago I seriously had a mental argument argument with myself debating [TS]

01:11:04   whether or not to go telling your wife that you got an invite and I think I told her everything [TS]

01:11:10   and keeping secrets from I told her she knows we discussed it. [TS]

01:11:15   I didn't tell I didn't tell your wife because I didn't think that was an appropriate course of action [TS]

01:11:20   and I didn't want to get involved in your marital stuff. [TS]

01:11:24   Well good call but it's silly to think that I wouldn't tell or what I told my wife and she thinks you're crazy. [TS]

01:11:30   Yeah I know I get that I cannot I'm so angry right now right now that I'm all fired up and angry. [TS]

01:11:37   Let's talk about what's going on with women in gaming. [TS]

01:11:40   Man what a disaster that is I read all these things all the time like I fall out of people who are involved in the [TS]

01:11:48   gaming industry. A lot of people who are women related to the gaming industry. [TS]

01:11:53   They post links to articles by followers links I read them. [TS]

01:11:56   I read all the blog posts I read all I get when I read a lot of games out there. [TS]

01:12:00   All these stories on ministers are to go read a lot about so I feel like I'm just soaking in [TS]

01:12:03   and you just assume that everyone else knows all the things that are happening [TS]

01:12:06   but they don't so that's why I think it's worth talking about because not everyone is as has read nine thousand [TS]

01:12:13   articles and I'm sorry. [TS]

01:12:15   Yeah so there's little things are where this is there's no actual like the difficulty due to getting up to speed is [TS]

01:12:22   like there's no actual like news there there's nothing nothing substantive for you to it's all like a metaphor it's all [TS]

01:12:30   it's all a story about a story. [TS]

01:12:32   The substantive parts like that you would think is like a controversy where there's like one side and another [TS]

01:12:38   and they're against each other but it's almost entirely one sided. [TS]

01:12:42   It's essentially a bunch of women in the industry who are fighting for more equality in the most like tame [TS]

01:12:51   non-controversial way you could possibly imagine. The best example of this is and it is our T.V. [TS]

01:12:57   and Sam is frequency videos yet a Kickstarter for it. [TS]

01:13:00   Go watch these videos that she puts up it's a critique of the treatment of women in gaming it is the most calm like [TS]

01:13:08   gentle hand-holding like noncontroversial like it sometimes it's face almost boring like an eminently reasonable [TS]

01:13:18   example after example she is not yelling at you. [TS]

01:13:21   She does not have an unreasonable demand she explains things slowly [TS]

01:13:26   and carefully in a way that people will understand with clear language right. [TS]

01:13:30   This is one example of the type of thing that drives you nuts [TS]

01:13:33   and that's why there's not a controversy because it's like what is it that you are opposed to in these things so they [TS]

01:13:39   write this stuff like that it is article about herds are caused by related issues I mean just the general treatment of [TS]

01:13:44   women in video games [TS]

01:13:45   and actual women who work in the gaming industry on the other side of this are people who are terrible doing terrible [TS]

01:13:51   things to other people harassing them posting their personal information sending them death threats [TS]

01:13:57   and terrible picture this goes on all the time this is not. [TS]

01:14:00   New this is just a flare up of something that happens all the time to women everywhere not just in the gaming industry [TS]

01:14:05   but in particular these women who are doing terrible thing in the gaming industry by merely talking about these issues. [TS]

01:14:12   And in recent weeks it's been getting worse because the terrible people are trying to organize [TS]

01:14:17   and trying to be even more super terrible and women are leaving the industry because they can't take the harassment [TS]

01:14:23   and I don't blame them for doing it. And that's like a victory. [TS]

01:14:25   And so it's not like you say well there's there's a debate here there's these people who did these bad thing these [TS]

01:14:31   people got angry. It's mostly just people doing bad things. [TS]

01:14:33   There's no other side to that [TS]

01:14:35   and that's why it's been hesitant to discuss it because I'm like well there's no story it's not like we can talk about [TS]

01:14:39   this bad thing people did [TS]

01:14:40   and people are reacting to it you know we can talk about this completely tame totally rational calm normal everyday [TS]

01:14:46   thing that happens all the time that is not bad in any way. And then these terrible people. [TS]

01:14:51   And so now this is just become a story about the terrible people of like it doesn't matter what anyone even if they had [TS]

01:14:57   done something like I've written a really mean blog post that it like they haven't. [TS]

01:15:01   It doesn't justify the crazy behavior that's going on. [TS]

01:15:03   And so I don't know what more they really say about us other than Whenever people ask you about on Twitter. [TS]

01:15:10   My my position is that the people who are angry have no idea what they're angry about. [TS]

01:15:17   They think they know what they're angry about. [TS]

01:15:19   They think they're angry about ethics they think they're angry about people taking away their games I think they're [TS]

01:15:24   angry about people lying. They have no idea what they're angry about is the biggest case of self delusion. [TS]

01:15:31   You know like [TS]

01:15:32   and they will never be convinced they don't know what they're angry about what they're doing is trying to in their mind [TS]

01:15:37   they're going to like actually what I really care about is journalistic integrity in video games already really care [TS]

01:15:42   about is that someone is lying or is it like they make up all these crazy conspiracy theories [TS]

01:15:47   and decide that they are really they that they have a righteous cause they do not have a righteous cause what they are [TS]

01:15:52   actually angry about has nothing to do with the things they claim they are angry about which is so easy for an outside [TS]

01:15:57   the bubble to see but inside the bubble. [TS]

01:16:00   That's what they really think [TS]

01:16:01   and they're like oh well you know I have a million issues they could you could just just look at any of the replies [TS]

01:16:07   streams of any of these people in to see all the things they think their anger about these people are not angry about [TS]

01:16:12   that they're there and they don't know the definition of intellectual honesty. [TS]

01:16:16   They're intellectually dishonest both with themselves and other people and it's it's just terrible [TS]

01:16:22   and by the way this is this is gaming is where we're talking about this everywhere. [TS]

01:16:26   We're going to treated badly everywhere to varying degrees. Like if you don't believe it. [TS]

01:16:30   Talk to a woman in your life and ask them for stories and if they actually trust you [TS]

01:16:34   and they will tell you these stories and it will sound insane to you [TS]

01:16:38   and my advice Deborah listen this thing I'm crazy person is the only. How do you what do you do about this. [TS]

01:16:45   Do you just like you know what can you possibly do about it [TS]

01:16:49   and I think the the thing that you can do about it if you are [TS]

01:16:53   and the odds are high a plain old American white male person listening to our techno podcast just try reading these [TS]

01:17:02   blog posts and watching these videos just like just to sort of like immersion therapy [TS]

01:17:07   or whatever it is me just have like just just immerse yourself in it not the one you agree with the other side the [TS]

01:17:14   people who are saying it would be nice if women were treated better in video games. [TS]

01:17:18   Just read those for like a year without saying anything. [TS]

01:17:21   That's the only way I feel like you can get through to people like what you know what actually what is the reality of [TS]

01:17:25   the situation on the other side there if you just read things that you agree with [TS]

01:17:28   or try to find things that like reinforce your own prejudices [TS]

01:17:31   and make you feel better about the things that you feel these were all brought up we brought this up [TS]

01:17:35   and were all brought up in a culture that embeds in US biases I you know against all sorts of things race religion [TS]

01:17:46   gender everything. [TS]

01:17:48   We're all brought up in that environment we don't want to think of ourselves as bad people there's a cognitive [TS]

01:17:51   dissonance thing going on there the best thing you can do is just to immerse yourself in that sort of equality debate [TS]

01:17:59   and that's the only way. [TS]

01:18:00   Way I think people get around this is no way me arguing with someone on Twitter is going to commence [TS]

01:18:03   and they're not mad about journalistic ethics and they don't know what intellectualized is and they have [TS]

01:18:07   and they have really have no legitimate complaints. [TS]

01:18:10   There's no way I think and it seems like it's so clear that they're so far gone there's no point arguing with them [TS]

01:18:15   and the only thing I think interview around including people like us who are just like sort of you know well I'm not [TS]

01:18:19   really involved in this I'm not a terrible person I'm not sending death threats I think it should be more quality in [TS]

01:18:23   games too [TS]

01:18:24   but I don't want to get involved because it's a fight to get out of that mindset I think you have to really understand [TS]

01:18:30   what's going on [TS]

01:18:31   and the way to really understand what's going on in a way that you better come through with is just to if you care [TS]

01:18:37   rather than just to immerse yourself in it and read [TS]

01:18:40   and read everything everybody has to say to me up take it on face value [TS]

01:18:43   but just feel like you can get get a picture of it that's beyond a picture that just reinforces the things you make you [TS]

01:18:48   feel good about yourself. Reason things that actually make you feel bad about yourself. [TS]

01:18:53   So earlier today and I'm not sure if this is why it's bringing this up and I want to bring it up [TS]

01:18:59   and we'll see where it goes. [TS]

01:19:01   Earlier today I made a perhaps a dubious choice of saying somebody said we should talk about this tonight [TS]

01:19:12   and I said you know I'm not sure how to talk about it [TS]

01:19:15   and I'm not sure what to do because I feel like well the people who are ostracizing women and [TS]

01:19:24   and threatening women unequivocally like John said unequivocally are wrong and that's a terrible thing. [TS]

01:19:30   And how these people look at themselves in the mirror. I don't understand how they sleep at night I don't understand. [TS]

01:19:35   Terrible but I don't want to just shout into the echo chamber. [TS]

01:19:40   I want to try to do something to move things forward and whether [TS]

01:19:45   or not I did a good job of patrolling nephew point on Twitter in one hundred forty characters minus like probably [TS]

01:19:50   twenty or thirty characters worth of mentions. [TS]

01:19:54   I may not have done a good job but one way or another I said you know my. [TS]

01:20:00   The way in which I approach this I think is nuanced and and I don't think that the discussion is nuanced. [TS]

01:20:06   I think that it's unequivocally these these people are jerks and that's the end of it. Women should be treated better. [TS]

01:20:11   That's the end of it. [TS]

01:20:12   But the way I approach it is a little nuanced and I got what I felt was a considerable amount of hate [TS]

01:20:20   and a considerable amount of yelling directed at me on Twitter because I I I had said that I wanted to think for a [TS]

01:20:29   minute before I spoke. [TS]

01:20:31   And it really upset me a lot and it really bothered me and I felt a little bit like I think Marco felt I think a week [TS]

01:20:41   or two ago with regard to the wire cutter thing because here it was I felt like I was trying to just be intelligent [TS]

01:20:47   about it rather than screaming about it and I was getting yelled at for that. [TS]

01:20:55   And the thing that was really upsetting about all this the thing that really bothered me [TS]

01:21:01   and continues to bother me about all this now that I've got a few hours to separate myself [TS]

01:21:06   and relax is I dealt with three hours of a handful of people being meaner than I think was necessary. [TS]

01:21:17   And it kind of messed me up for for a while. That was three hours. Nobody threatened to rape me. [TS]

01:21:25   Nobody threatened to murder me. Nobody sent me disgusting pornography. Nobody came to your house. [TS]

01:21:33   Nobody said they knew your address and your family that address and were going to go and kill them [TS]

01:21:37   and I showed you pictures of your family that they'd taken secretly. [TS]

01:21:40   Yes and I felt like a piece of crap after this three hours which had none of those things. [TS]

01:21:47   And it occurred to me if I feel like a piece of just utter crap after three hours of people saying oh you're not doing [TS]

01:21:55   enough you shouldn't think about that nuanced Are you kidding me. And if three. [TS]

01:22:00   Hours of that I felt like I wanted to crawl in a hole and just go away for a week and that was three hours. [TS]

01:22:08   I cannot freaking fathom what it's like to be a woman in tech. [TS]

01:22:16   It won't really have all but in technology and especially in gaming where there's so many just absolute jerks. [TS]

01:22:24   I cannot fathom what it's like. [TS]

01:22:26   And as much as I didn't want to go through what I went through today which I'm not trying to play the victim really [TS]

01:22:31   immigrants Hema things was not a big deal. [TS]

01:22:34   But as much as it hurt him as much as I didn't want to go through it today I'm kind of glad that that happened because [TS]

01:22:40   it made what women go through that littlest bit more real because I just got the teeniest little taste and I hated it. [TS]

01:22:51   I cannot fathom what it's like to actually deal with this. [TS]

01:22:55   That's probably one of the only other ways that you could convince somebody you know you don't have this kind of [TS]

01:22:59   control but if you did if you could you know do that for you for out a body swap another movie has been seen [TS]

01:23:05   and I have seen it. But a bunch of the original K.C. [TS]

01:23:11   I don't see a big gentle writer let a bunch of men see what it's like to actually be a woman. [TS]

01:23:16   Because like so many things are just in our culture that like we don't see them as bad because it's like well it's just [TS]

01:23:24   the way things are and there's always something like that in every era. [TS]

01:23:27   This stuff like that now one hundred years from now people can look back on us [TS]

01:23:30   and we were things that we accept as just the way things are. [TS]

01:23:32   Like one where you can see them as if you suddenly begin a woman and spent like a few years as a woman [TS]

01:23:38   and you had spent the rest your life of the man you would be super pissed about how terrible you were treated you would [TS]

01:23:43   be the most angry noxious you know you would just be livid that people don't respect you [TS]

01:23:51   and treat you like a piece of meat looked down [TS]

01:23:54   and you talk to condescendingly like just are you know I'm all the terrible things that happen to women all the time. [TS]

01:24:00   Even are just like you know overly protective of you or assume that you can or can't do certain things or whatever. [TS]

01:24:06   It's it's difficult to understand what that's like if you have an experience that you know [TS]

01:24:09   and you know Casey you have the experience you had of like people being mean to you and stuff. [TS]

01:24:16   Imagine if that happens all the time [TS]

01:24:17   and then you were looking at you feel like an injustice like you'd be like Hey everybody knows this happening to me [TS]

01:24:23   right. [TS]

01:24:24   What are you guys going to do about it is not just me it's like everybody whose name is Katie's getting these kind of [TS]

01:24:28   views and it's not fair to people just because my name is Casey It is kind of abuse and mean the rest the case. [TS]

01:24:33   You like what the hell guys know arounds like I don't get involved. [TS]

01:24:35   Looks like it's a big mess [TS]

01:24:37   or like they don't get comments like this person that Sharon said John is an expert at them as [TS]

01:24:40   and he shouldn't talk about it and ended up in a chat room says calling them out. I won't change anything. [TS]

01:24:47   I'm not an expert in feminism that's not a reason I shouldn't talk about it [TS]

01:24:50   but I'm calling him out on it like this like negative like now because I got involved now I'm going to deal with the [TS]

01:24:55   feedback right well yeah I do. Calling him out I won't change anything. [TS]

01:24:58   That's why I say I like arguing with people trying to convince them that they're wrong is not a fruitful endeavor the [TS]

01:25:03   people who need to be changed are the people who are good people who just feel like they need to stay out of it because [TS]

01:25:08   they're afraid of getting a kind of feedback we're getting the chat room they're fraid of getting out. [TS]

01:25:12   If you back Casey got you know that's like you have to you have to decide what you think is important [TS]

01:25:20   and if this is actually something is important to you you have to be willing to to do something about it. [TS]

01:25:25   And it's people like us who all agree like oh I totally agree with all these people [TS]

01:25:32   and just I don't want to get involved. Well then you're not really helping. So just I mean do something to help. [TS]

01:25:37   Like you shouldn't be afraid that you're going to do something that is going to turn you into a bad person. Right. [TS]

01:25:44   You may do things that cause people to give you negative attention and complain about what you're doing. [TS]

01:25:49   You may find out there are beliefs that you have like this is part of my experience of being you know steeped in the [TS]

01:25:56   stuff of the past several years. You may find yourself having to. [TS]

01:26:00   Oh man believes that you hadn't even thought were like believes that all this is like was just the way things are. [TS]

01:26:04   You will find your own biases they will not feel good for you to find these things you will realize that you had said [TS]

01:26:10   things [TS]

01:26:10   and done things in the past that did not live up to the standards that you supposedly hold for yourself that is part of [TS]

01:26:15   the experience I think that is where the fruitful effort can be put towards not towards trying to save these terrible [TS]

01:26:23   people from whatever pain in their life is causing them to lash out in this way not by trying to convince them that [TS]

01:26:28   they're really not mad about journalistic ethics because I'll never be convinced because they think that you know it's [TS]

01:26:31   like self-delusion but by talking to the people who are already on your side [TS]

01:26:36   and just getting them to to better understand the issue [TS]

01:26:40   and to be more willing to do something about it I think everybody has to jump in [TS]

01:26:43   and not demanding that everyone take action or whatever but like I think of it if you were if everyone in K.C. [TS]

01:26:48   Was constantly being harassed [TS]

01:26:49   and the whole rest the country was like an alarmist old ego Well I just I want to get involved in that all the cases [TS]

01:26:54   like Are you kidding me. [TS]

01:26:55   Like every day this happens you know and all the cases are getting harassed [TS]

01:26:58   and everyone is like this is OK Don't you feel like it's not you know it it's you know you know bring out the jailer [TS]

01:27:03   but it's just this is like Should this be happening all no it should be happening I tell you as agree with the buzz [TS]

01:27:08   and I can do about it. [TS]

01:27:09   There there actually is like we need to make it as as socially unacceptable to have these attitudes towards what is [TS]

01:27:16   already socially unacceptable to arrest people [TS]

01:27:18   but is not socially acceptable to have only gotten to towards women that that create these these terrible situations [TS]

01:27:24   where people have problems in their life and pain and that they redirect in this direction [TS]

01:27:29   and why does it go in this direction is not random. [TS]

01:27:31   It's because of the media culture that we're saturated in from the day we're born. [TS]

01:27:35   That leads in these directions [TS]

01:27:36   and it's not just video games as movies tell because there is equally bad not equally bad but it's bad everywhere. [TS]

01:27:42   It may be particularly bad in games. [TS]

01:27:44   Again if you think this is all crazy talk I heard you just watch the feminist [TS]

01:27:47   or you can see videos will link them they are not super entertaining. [TS]

01:27:51   You will not be blown away by what he jokes and everything like that right. [TS]

01:27:55   Sometimes they're depressing sometimes it is plain boring. Just watch them. Don't like watch them. [TS]

01:28:00   Think you have to agree or disagree don't watch them and think you have to go out and change the world [TS]

01:28:03   or you have to send her angry mail. Just watch them at the start. [TS]

01:28:07   Read articles about them read things that you disagree with [TS]

01:28:11   and just try to try to understand the issues with all the good people Terral people just go away. [TS]

01:28:16   Stopping terrible I think it's important to you know like what you said like this has to become socially unacceptable [TS]

01:28:24   to to a much more severe level than on His right now like there there are certain lines that are considered so [TS]

01:28:31   offensive [TS]

01:28:32   and so socially unacceptable that like for instance like if somebody tells suppose you're in a small group of people [TS]

01:28:39   hang out in a bar [TS]

01:28:40   and somebody tells a really racist joke like horrible racist joke it most groups of people now that is considered so [TS]

01:28:50   offensive that and we have a long way to go on racism as well. [TS]

01:28:55   But in most groups of people now that is considered so offensive that somebody would be like somebody would say [TS]

01:29:00   something like Hey that's that's not cool like you know like you be called out on that for doing that in a lot of [TS]

01:29:05   groups not enough but in a lot of groups and I think [TS]

01:29:08   and I think you'd be called out in a constructive manner at this point especially in the circles we travel in of our [TS]

01:29:13   little privileged techno right you'd be called out in a way that we do not immediately gastritis in the group you would [TS]

01:29:18   be you be told that that's not cool and if you argued about it then you were doing something on the out right [TS]

01:29:23   but if you're like oh you're right that's not like we're trying we're trying to enforce off the norms in a way that is [TS]

01:29:29   like you know to me till you get it from the group of you tolerate this joke [TS]

01:29:32   but if you tell a racist joke something tells you it's racism you argue with them that that shows something right [TS]

01:29:37   or if you argue that it doesn't matter that it's like right [TS]

01:29:40   and so like we need to get to that point with sex as an issue and we're not there yet [TS]

01:29:46   and again like even racism we haven't gotten to a good enough point [TS]

01:29:50   but we're I think we're further ahead on it you know we need it people like like like me [TS]

01:29:56   and like people like us who are wondering what can we do. [TS]

01:30:00   That's a big thing that everybody can do that everybody can start holding the people around them [TS]

01:30:05   and themselves to a higher standard to say and like call people out if they if they say something [TS]

01:30:12   and you don't have to be a dick about it you can do it constructively if if you could tell that it really mean it badly [TS]

01:30:18   you know like there's again like as [TS]

01:30:20   and translate this stuff this is subtle it's big into our culture it's very hard to even to realize you won't notice it [TS]

01:30:27   unless unless you read eight thousand blog posts about stuff with crazy stuff that you don't agree with unless you've [TS]

01:30:32   just steep yourself [TS]

01:30:33   and you have to reexamine things that you just assume that are just OK it was just the way they are. [TS]

01:30:38   Like everybody has these beliefs. [TS]

01:30:40   Everybody there is no person anywhere in the world who does not have what are essentially regressive non-rational [TS]

01:30:46   beliefs because of the way they were brought up [TS]

01:30:47   and you will never examine them if you just like stay within the group of people that you're in. [TS]

01:30:53   Right you have to you have to extend yourself you have to become uncomfortable. [TS]

01:30:57   You know it's just it's so tough because you know the things that bothered me that happened with me today I think it [TS]

01:31:07   was people that were there that that were trying to defend feminism [TS]

01:31:13   and trying to say you know this isn't nuanced it's just plain wrong you know your opinions are nuance to either you you [TS]

01:31:20   agree that it's wrong or you don't. [TS]

01:31:23   And what I left that conversation [TS]

01:31:27   or those conversations with even though it was conversations with people who I think by [TS]

01:31:32   and large I agree with that this is B.S. and That it is wrong. [TS]

01:31:37   I left with this feeling like Oh my God I'm never going to talk about this again. [TS]

01:31:41   And that doesn't help [TS]

01:31:45   and just a few minutes later some person on Twitter started saying that oh you know the tech industry is a meritocracy [TS]

01:31:54   and there's no sexism there blah blah blah. And for a minute I thought somebody said yeah. [TS]

01:32:00   I'm should look at my replies. Oh it was absolutely. That's right that's the thing. Again here it is. [TS]

01:32:09   That's where things are not going to be Apple that only barely but you just can't it. [TS]

01:32:14   But though that's the thing is that to me this is so absurd to Killis [TS]

01:32:19   and this person was arguing that oh you don't know what you're talking about. [TS]

01:32:23   Oh and nursing is ninety two percent feminine or female or what have you so clearly that's sexist [TS]

01:32:29   and oh my god it was so ridiculous. [TS]

01:32:31   And for a minute there I thought you know what I'm just getting more this just completely backwards individual [TS]

01:32:36   and I'm just going to let this go away because I was just right off of being lectured about not wanting to shoot from [TS]

01:32:44   the hip and how wrong that was and then I thought you know what. Screw that. [TS]

01:32:49   This person's being an idiot and I'm going to tell them they're being an idiot [TS]

01:32:52   and this kind of gets into the conversation of should you or should you not feed the trolls. [TS]

01:32:56   And if there's anything I've learned it's that I'm not good at drawing that line and I'm not good at deciding [TS]

01:33:01   when to feed the trolls and when not to. [TS]

01:33:04   But it's felt more wrong to me to not do anything and not say anything then to take the easy way out [TS]

01:33:13   and just think in myself or this person is just completely backwards and there's nothing I can do about it. [TS]

01:33:18   There's a lot of like tropes if you want to call them that in this debate and like I said in the past [TS]

01:33:25   when we talked about you know women in the tech industry [TS]

01:33:27   and everything I'm trying not to use all the vocabulary because people who don't know what this is don't know that we [TS]

01:33:33   have people who do know a gambler find it to be charged [TS]

01:33:36   but one of the things that you said in that thing which caused people to flare up I think is the sort of not feeding [TS]

01:33:40   the trolls thing that is a nugget of wisdom from you know from ages ages ago which is basically like if someone is [TS]

01:33:48   there someone is getting a bad behavior online don't engage with them [TS]

01:33:53   and they'll go away because all they wanted attention and that is an anti pattern when it comes to women in tech [TS]

01:33:59   and harassment issue. [TS]

01:34:00   Because that's what everyone uses say like these people come in there or start arresting things [TS]

01:34:04   and everyone else would say nothing because they weren't being the ones harassed and they would [TS]

01:34:08   and they would defend this action. This in action by saying Oh don't feed the trolls like don't engage with them. [TS]

01:34:13   Not engaging it's fine when you're not the target of harassment you have the luxury of not engaging [TS]

01:34:18   and saying oh don't feed the trolls not feeding them does not stop them from doing the terrible thing they're doing to [TS]

01:34:22   their targets right and that's why Don't be the trolls in such a sort of you know when [TS]

01:34:27   when people hear that they who are steeped in this debate they're like you know it's fallen victim for one of the [TS]

01:34:33   classic blunders. [TS]

01:34:35   They just know this is one of those things like oh don't you know like I mean everyone thinks like oh you should know [TS]

01:34:40   everything about this debate already don't you know they don't feed the trolls is exactly the wrong thing to say [TS]

01:34:44   but anyone who's new to this debate is going to come in [TS]

01:34:47   and make all the same mistakes all the sort of beginner mistakes that everybody does [TS]

01:34:50   and then you can get jumped on by people like oh my God don't you know don't be the trolls the worst thing ever you [TS]

01:34:54   really have to stand up for these people because they they feed on your silence and you know that allows them like [TS]

01:35:00   and you know you don't know because like you're not steeped in this debate [TS]

01:35:02   and so like you are coming in that's going to happen right. [TS]

01:35:05   That's not you know even within the debate there's like there's arguments over tactics like how should we achieve our [TS]

01:35:11   radical goals of not being beat on constantly. [TS]

01:35:13   Yeah sure we achieve them in this way by the angry people yelling should each of them in that way by engaging [TS]

01:35:18   and trying to work with people or is that too much compromise and like [TS]

01:35:21   and you know Mark about of racism before like this it's not just an individual thing there's institutional levels of [TS]

01:35:26   all this. [TS]

01:35:26   It's all down the chain of like well even if at a personal level Iran feels the certain way [TS]

01:35:31   and espouse a certain believes it as an institution as a group we behave in a different way than that perpetuates all [TS]

01:35:37   the other things of the media we create is only created by people who unconsciously put their biases into it [TS]

01:35:42   and that these are children to look like this is a big you know. [TS]

01:35:46   But look how long we've been fighting at racism and you know making progress but it's very slow [TS]

01:35:52   and sexism is you know is probably even going to be harder to knock down because you know in some ways you might say [TS]

01:35:59   it's better than race. As I'm in the US anyway. But in other ways it's worse. [TS]

01:36:03   They're both really bad in the world not going to bow his way some of the jammers asking what we can do about it in an [TS]

01:36:08   individual level. [TS]

01:36:11   My suggestion is at an individual level it is a combination of Amargosa before which is basically if someone does [TS]

01:36:18   something that you think that you know is bad based on your current worldview of the you know if you see someone doing [TS]

01:36:24   something that sexist that's unkind to women aren't kind to anybody. [TS]

01:36:29   Don't be like oh don't feed the trolls like you know it if it if you know it's wrong do something about it even if [TS]

01:36:36   you're not the target. [TS]

01:36:37   Even though you know there are going to be consequences for you that's just like that's something you can do because [TS]

01:36:42   not doing anything is not an option not doing anything leads to the current situation. [TS]

01:36:46   You know like whatever you know all takes for evil to triumph is are good men to do nothing right. [TS]

01:36:51   All takes people trying to is for a completely neutral non interested people to do nothing just like Don't don't do [TS]

01:36:57   nothing right and the second thing you should do is try to learn about the things that will reveal your own biases [TS]

01:37:04   and so you can rig them like all the good people who already agree with everything already agree that these people are [TS]

01:37:09   terrible. [TS]

01:37:09   Those are the people who need to see not only the we know you're not terrible like that [TS]

01:37:13   but there are things that you are not seeing as well [TS]

01:37:16   and that once you see them it's kind of like you know seeing the majors [TS]

01:37:20   or once you see them you're like how did I ever not see this before. [TS]

01:37:22   Many things can make you see them could be reading blog posts it could be other discuss Natasha having a daughter [TS]

01:37:27   and facing the world through her eyes it could be just getting married or are dating someone [TS]

01:37:31   and asking the significant other was a woman in your life what it was like for them if you don't know what that's like [TS]

01:37:36   I mean all these things can change your worldview [TS]

01:37:38   and once your worldview is change you can't see things you thought were like normal [TS]

01:37:42   and OK as being OK you will watch T.V. [TS]

01:37:44   Shows that you watch enjoy [TS]

01:37:45   and realize how insanely sexist they are just like we watch like Mad Men now like the sixty's was a success right. [TS]

01:37:50   Everything we see on our current television in movies and entertainment is exactly like that now [TS]

01:37:56   and you can you can fast forward your brain so that our. [TS]

01:38:00   Current world looks like madmen to you and it's not an illusion that is the reality it's behind everything else [TS]

01:38:04   and once you can see that it will change how you act change how you raise your children change how you run your company [TS]

01:38:09   change how you do everything that's been individuals [TS]

01:38:10   and the individuals who already are good people can do things to affect change [TS]

01:38:16   and that that's what I would suggest for individuals. [TS]

01:38:18   What you can do obviously there's much more you can do the people we're talking about are doing way more. [TS]

01:38:22   They're putting their you know their careers their lives their sanity on the line by trying to make changes that are [TS]

01:38:29   much larger than one Persian person we've got you know [TS]

01:38:32   and you start using doing that Brianna we're doing all these people who could just be quietly doing a job somewhere [TS]

01:38:37   have chosen not to have chosen to speak out and be very loud and expose themselves to harassment and criticism [TS]

01:38:45   and abuse because they think the change is important if you do that. [TS]

01:38:49   Those people are heroes not everyone can be a hero but everybody can make themselves better everyone can lend a hand. [TS]

01:38:53   I think. [TS]

01:38:54   And don't don't be so be open to the idea that you might be part of the problem because in some subtle way you probably [TS]

01:39:04   are without realizing it [TS]

01:39:05   and you know there's there's no shame in realizing you've been wrong about something in the past [TS]

01:39:12   and fixing it like this like it's very hard for people to do that. [TS]

01:39:16   But that's so much better than continuing to to be a part of the problem and just you know plug your ears and yell or [TS]

01:39:25   or deny that you're part of the problem or become even more part of the problem. [TS]

01:39:30   And and for any if any of our listeners are being part of this problem for God sakes cut that out. [TS]

01:39:37   I think I'm pretty proud of my Twitter followers for the most part because a lot of people [TS]

01:39:41   when they tweet about anything like this get like tons of crazy people yelling at them and for the most part [TS]

01:39:46   when I tweet about there's a retreat about this most of the people who follow me I think are either not interested at [TS]

01:39:53   all and say nothing or are good people say supportive things. [TS]

01:39:57   But I know that is not true of other people others will say. [TS]

01:40:00   Actually retreated something for fairness very quickly and got a million crazy people yelling at me. [TS]

01:40:04   And so I did what I said I get all my followers for not being like a pimp. [TS]

01:40:08   Well that's nothing like something that struck me especially today having seen some of the tree Owens in this purpose [TS]

01:40:15   individual who was trying to explain to me that that technology the technology industries a meritocracy. [TS]

01:40:23   I travel with both in my online circles [TS]

01:40:26   and in meatspace I travel with people that are of least enough attack intelligence to realize that diversity is a good [TS]

01:40:35   thing for everybody. [TS]

01:40:38   It is a good freaking thing [TS]

01:40:40   and it just blows my mind that so much of both America in the world at large seems to think that the only the only [TS]

01:40:49   people that can do anything intelligent are white men. But how how does that make any frickin sense. [TS]

01:40:56   It just it's stupid fives me what these people genuinely believe and I'm not going to get into politics [TS]

01:41:03   but there's a political side to this as well. [TS]

01:41:05   I just I don't understand how people can think that like it is so eminently obvious to me that diversity is is the way [TS]

01:41:13   it should be being diverse is the way it should be. It's the it's the best possible way. [TS]

01:41:19   Like if I just lived in a world where everyone agreed with me I would be furious. [TS]

01:41:24   I love my wife to death and sometimes she drives me crazy because we don't see eye to eye. [TS]

01:41:31   And that's part of the reason why I love her so much is because we don't see eye to eye all the time just having like a [TS]

01:41:39   yes woman or yes man around. [TS]

01:41:42   That just sounds so mind numbingly terrible to me it's like I'm so glad John that you have [TS]

01:41:48   and I think I do too generally have the followers that realize that diversity is good [TS]

01:41:53   but what all of us myself very much included don't realize is there are so. Many people out there that are backwards. [TS]

01:42:02   Do you live in fifty one hundred two hundred years ago and think that women are evil and black people are stupid [TS]

01:42:09   and it's just how can you think that how is that a reasonable course of action. [TS]

01:42:13   Twenty fourteen for the gaming industry in particular. [TS]

01:42:17   It's like again I don't think this is the approach that I think you should try to convince people like the terrible [TS]

01:42:23   people that are terrible but like it's easier to convince the people who are sort of neutral [TS]

01:42:27   or like don't want to get involved or think they're just fine because they're not terrible. [TS]

01:42:32   If you just like to look at it from a business perspective like there's enough evidence people done this for the movies [TS]

01:42:37   to the show like there is a you know we just went to a demo over them a graphics couple shows ago the like you know [TS]

01:42:43   forty eight percent of gamers are women there's more adult women who play games and then males under eighteen right. [TS]

01:42:48   This is an uncertain market. [TS]

01:42:50   Like just economic business point of view like to replace women [TS]

01:42:54   and men with some other demographic that is less politically charged for your perspective this is an undershirt market [TS]

01:43:00   these people are buying things they're buying games that were not made with them in mind at all their bank games there [TS]

01:43:05   are terrible to them that objectify women that don't have their interest in mind like [TS]

01:43:09   and it's not just women it's like there are huge under-served markets in the gaming world [TS]

01:43:14   and how are you going to make products to serve these markets you can just take the existing teams of people who know [TS]

01:43:19   how to make games for straight male hammers you can't you'll never serve those markets of these people [TS]

01:43:24   or at least it'll be a hell of a lot harder. [TS]

01:43:27   Hire some people with different points of view who want to make different kinds of games they will you know it's like [TS]

01:43:32   movies in the movie in the theaters recently with female leads have been doing better than those with male lead singers [TS]

01:43:38   like action movies like that and yet still like movies are more progressive than games in this regard. [TS]

01:43:43   I just look at like the isometric podcast again and five guys with a bunch of women that came out of nowhere [TS]

01:43:49   and became very popular. [TS]

01:43:51   Why because an underserved market gaming podcast mostly hosted by women there's not enough of those is not enough good [TS]

01:43:56   ones of those of us are going to get those of I meant those are going to find you one of this new find. [TS]

01:44:00   There's an underserved market for thing like there are people out there who are not having games made for them by [TS]

01:44:06   people who understand what they might like ignore everything else is just a stupid business that said I do [TS]

01:44:11   and same thing with Hollywood making the same stupid movies all the time. [TS]

01:44:14   You know figure it out people like you can make more money and I send sell more games and more products. [TS]

01:44:21   I mean Apple to its credit does a little bit better for eating out like Apple does not make things just for straight [TS]

01:44:26   white males they try to make things that appeal to lots of people right. [TS]

01:44:29   Every possible thing do you like do you like high technology. [TS]

01:44:33   Do you like I mean they're going to go into the fashion world. [TS]

01:44:35   They have to make things that are interesting to people who care about a diversity of issues did they just feature men [TS]

01:44:42   in their commercials that they just feature old people do they just teach your children to they just know they show [TS]

01:44:46   everybody to try to make products for everybody. You make more money that way people. [TS]

01:44:50   So that's that's my gaming industry talk if you are making games if you are selling games if you are thinking about [TS]

01:44:55   games you're going to sell it or making a gaming product. [TS]

01:44:58   Half of your buyers are women don't have your product made entirely by men for men because [TS]

01:45:03   and you say all my facts are made entirely by members are not entirely for men is almost impossible to have a product [TS]

01:45:08   made entirely by men and not have that product [TS]

01:45:11   and it being a little bit more for men than otherwise because again everyone's got our own country's biases [TS]

01:45:16   and we're really familiar with what we like not so familiar with what different people like [TS]

01:45:20   and replace gender with any other axes along which people can vary economic background age race everything. [TS]

01:45:27   That's like you said diversity people think it's a dirty word it's like it's just good business sense. [TS]

01:45:32   It just doesn't make sense. You're leaving money on the table. [TS]

01:45:36   And also just makes you a better person you know like it broadens your worldview to to bring more diversity into your [TS]

01:45:43   life into your work and it makes you a better person to not be aggravating these tensions [TS]

01:45:49   and not be attacking people over trivial matters. [TS]

01:45:53   And that you know some people are just miserable and are going to do this regardless [TS]

01:45:58   and I don't know how to solve that problem. I don't think anybody really doesn't solve their problem. [TS]

01:46:02   It's a terrible problem but I don't know how to solve it. [TS]

01:46:05   But even even if you're the kind of miserable person who likes being very argumentative you can win more arguments if [TS]

01:46:12   you take the high road and don't leave people these areas to attack what you're saying. [TS]

01:46:17   Like if you're some kind of awful sexist person making awful sexist comments every time you try to win an argument [TS]

01:46:24   or anything else you're going to lose because of that. [TS]

01:46:27   There's just so many reasons why it even if you can't be motivated by being a better person which is unfortunate. [TS]

01:46:35   There are so many other reasons why you should. [TS]

01:46:38   But ultimately I think the best thing we can really do is you know what we said earlier just you know encourage the [TS]

01:46:44   people who actively are trying or actively are intending to make things better [TS]

01:46:50   and actively would would like to help to actually help get you know give them give them the tools [TS]

01:46:57   and the social permission to actually help. [TS]

01:47:01   It's important to realize like you know I like I saw Brianna were talking I think earlier today [TS]

01:47:06   or yesterday about how like she's like Never she's never talked to a man who who thought he was part of the problem [TS]

01:47:13   or something like that. Like all of us listening we we all probably think oh well we aren't part of the problem. [TS]

01:47:21   It's all the other people the other guys to the part of the problem. [TS]

01:47:25   But that's probably not true we probably are part of the problem in ways you don't realize [TS]

01:47:28   and so it's just so important to keep an open mind about that and to [TS]

01:47:32   and to to to add people to our social circles like Briana [TS]

01:47:37   and like anyone who will who will help point these things out to us when we do things [TS]

01:47:43   or say things that are unintentionally harmful to somebody. [TS]

01:47:47   I would like to know that it's like having my fly open like I would like somebody to tell me you know because that's a [TS]

01:47:53   problem that I would I would like to fix rather than denying that it exists. [TS]

01:47:58   The invisible fire that you can see it goes on. Did you know you have a fly in by the way it's open. [TS]

01:48:02   Yeah that's I mean and by the way to archive forever [TS]

01:48:04   and forever if you're on the social network that's another thing you've done [TS]

01:48:09   and it takes a conscious effort that you know I've been trying to do so the best of years with mixed results [TS]

01:48:14   but my God keep trying to follow people who you wouldn't normally follow. [TS]

01:48:18   Right and so you can see what they have to say read their blogs like go outside of your comfort zone [TS]

01:48:24   or you know they make a conscious effort to expose yourself to the viewpoint if there is some kind of standard bearer [TS]

01:48:31   for a particular movement that you agree with in principle [TS]

01:48:34   but don't really know what you can do about it just follow that person. [TS]

01:48:37   And again every movement has different people there's always there's your Malcolm X. [TS]

01:48:41   Martin Luther King Jr like this there's the whole spectrum of people maybe don't like one person's approach. [TS]

01:48:46   Maybe like in the present approach there are many rows see a video or a blog or read it with a feed. [TS]

01:48:51   But just open yourself up to them [TS]

01:48:53   and you don't to do anything about it like in the beginning just let yourself see what they have to say [TS]

01:48:58   and if you follow them maybe you'll find a need to reply military plan back to you [TS]

01:49:02   or maybe that one time you say something that you need to get called up on maybe they'll be there to call call you out [TS]

01:49:06   on that if you happen to have a lot of followers like we do. [TS]

01:49:10   Make it a point to amplify the voices of people who normally don't get heard or you know [TS]

01:49:15   or who are you know if there is if you're an individual Casey in your house being harassed by the K.C. [TS]

01:49:19   Aiders you'd really like it if someone with a large audience would employ your message that hey by the way did you know [TS]

01:49:25   someone keeps putting a flaming C.M.I. [TS]

01:49:26   On every morning because the anti Casey people hate all cases and this has been going on for years [TS]

01:49:30   and it seems like you guys don't care. Just so you know I'm out here. I'm getting harassed. [TS]

01:49:35   Amplify those signals to to your audience of people [TS]

01:49:39   and if you find yourself saying I would do that I agree with them in principle but I don't want to be like that guy [TS]

01:49:46   and have all the people who are following me be like angry M.B. [TS]

01:49:49   Like we just want to hear you talk about technology don't talk about that it's like well decide you care about this if [TS]

01:49:53   you not care about it do you think all your followers those are terrible anti Casey people or are they you know like. [TS]

01:50:00   Do you really want people following you like what do you actually care about you can say Well I agree in principle [TS]

01:50:04   but I want to do anything that inconveniences me in any way like some point you have to some point you have to put your [TS]

01:50:09   and now it's so true [TS]

01:50:11   and one of the best things I've done in regard to this is following Brianna who is space cat gal on Twitter [TS]

01:50:21   and seeing things through her eyes to the best as one can through Twitter is so fascinating and so enlightening. [TS]

01:50:31   And if you follow her and you get tired of all the things that she's saying about women in tech [TS]

01:50:37   and whatnot because she senses a lot then you know what. Imagine what it's like to deal with that. [TS]

01:50:43   Like you're getting one one hundredth of what she has to deal with and you can turn yours off [TS]

01:50:48   when ever you want to like women have to live with this every day. [TS]

01:50:52   Exactly and there are times I'm like holy crap or you know relax for a second [TS]

01:50:57   and like what you're talking about now don't relax this is terrible [TS]

01:51:00   but I was there like you know it's not like a the following specific person because if Brianna's approach to this [TS]

01:51:05   problem is off putting to you that's fine you can still not agree with her approaches solving this problem. [TS]

01:51:09   Find someone else to read to fall [TS]

01:51:11   or whatever like there's lot like just because you don't agree with someone's tactics they're not I mean like I don't [TS]

01:51:17   feel like you need to expose yourself to some tactics that you find are off putting. [TS]

01:51:21   Right [TS]

01:51:21   but you should expose yourself to the viewpoint there are plenty of viewpoint out there there is a viewpoint that you [TS]

01:51:26   feel comfortable with they can expose you to things you haven't thought of they can they can show you the experiences [TS]

01:51:30   of other people and you know it's going to make you a little bit uncomfortable [TS]

01:51:34   but they're like you know like don't make your Twitter stream filled up like if I'm the angriest person you can [TS]

01:51:40   and by the way as I said before I feel like if I was for switch genders right now I would be the angriest feminist the [TS]

01:51:45   world's ever so [TS]

01:51:46   and so would most men because we would just be incensed at the injustice of being treated the way women are treated all [TS]

01:51:51   the time because we know what it's like on the other side you know or changing to be black in the US [TS]

01:51:56   or any other type of thing or changing to be super short or like any. [TS]

01:52:00   Any other thing that like is bad not you Mark you know. [TS]

01:52:03   Yeah like you know all of us would it would be just totally enraged to have to deal with any sort of prejudice that we [TS]

01:52:12   don't that we didn't grow up with right. [TS]

01:52:15   And so what you just try to do is be aware of those things somehow by exposing yourself to different viewpoints. [TS]

01:52:22   We can put a list of people in the show not everyone isometric would be great if all of this [TS]

01:52:26   but even just like right like what your last name I was mispronounced it. I'll put on the show. [TS]

01:52:32   Susan aren't a veteran I'm asking you guys you don't know you're the Prince for a show that female journalists in the [TS]

01:52:38   game industry if they have been there for a while they have a valuable viewpoint. [TS]

01:52:43   They probably have something interesting to say on this topic [TS]

01:52:45   and increasingly like you can find the great terrible people making this big like a list of people who you should hate [TS]

01:52:51   because they support equality and [TS]

01:52:54   and list of websites you should visit go find that list you know from from these terrible websites [TS]

01:52:59   and like for all those people are you for they have to say like use it for the opposite purpose. Yeah so it's a R. [TS]

01:53:06   and B. C I guess it's just all right. Anyway she's great I enjoy her. [TS]

01:53:13   Sam a cyclone on Twitter Mattie Myers from isometric as well as another person to follow. [TS]

01:53:21   Point is there are there are things out there for you to follow and to read something will suit your needs. [TS]

01:53:26   The worst thing you can do is nothing. [TS]

01:53:30   And also I highly recommend wearing button fly pants because then your final never be open accidentally among other [TS]

01:53:35   benefits. They really are better. [TS]

01:53:40   Let's work now so you get past it like it's you know if you have to convert all your pants at once You can't have like [TS]

01:53:47   one button fly pegs and you'll hate them [TS]

01:53:49   but once you have once you've converted to button fly you realize how superior they really are [TS]

01:53:55   and they loosen up after like the first couple of days. That's the thing on. Broken in button fly pants are the worst. [TS]

01:54:03   But that's like literally it's a couple of days and then then they're fine and they're nice you know [TS]

01:54:07   and then this is the worst the most inappropriate segue of going from you really are better. [TS]

01:54:14   But basis ystem a sexism to flies on pants you know both both genders can wear button fly pants and often do. [TS]

01:54:23   This is this is not a gender issue. I mean there is a benefit to men. [TS]

01:54:26   There's a there's an extra safety involved there but most of the benefits apply to both genders. [TS]

01:54:34   I think we should stop them [TS]

01:54:35   and that I mean we're not going to stop it now we're never going to be done with this topic this topic is not going to [TS]

01:54:40   go away in our lifetimes and I think we should keep talking about it regularly it will come up again on the show. [TS]

01:54:46   I'm sure it's sad that it only comes up when like things get super bad [TS]

01:54:51   but you know that's just the nature of just the nature of a topical show. [TS]

01:54:57   Yeah it's homework for everybody who listens you know. [TS]

01:55:00   Seriously dude do something nice for for a woman in your life and you'll be better for it. [TS]

01:55:06   And keep an open mind about pants as well except for the people who are saying a velcro fly. [TS]

01:55:12   What you've got to be kidding at the worst of everything. [TS]

01:55:14   Skip that I think were time I got more fired up about that than I expected. Makes you so angry. [TS]

01:55:21   No I think this is I think I think we were not going to regret having talked about this for this long. [TS]

01:55:27   If you guys like to buy on a quick I still have never listened to [TS]

01:55:31   but it sounds like the type of show like you like panicked you try symmetric because you're like well I'm not [TS]

01:55:37   interested in games. Paraplegic out of games. [TS]

01:55:41   She says Try it for a couple episodes and Euro [TS]

01:55:44   but I guess they were just like yeah I actually I did I did listen to a few but they were pretty gaming heavy. [TS]

01:55:51   Yeah I guess I mean I guess it is like I guess. [TS]

01:55:54   I mean it depends if they're spending a long time talking about hand turkeys then that's my gaming related [TS]

01:55:58   but I guess they do spend some time. [TS]

01:56:00   When I when I find the show musing in the same way as how it seems like you guys found by our commuting [TS]

01:56:04   and it's like one of the show really about it's a lot of nonsense a lot of fun. [TS]

01:56:07   But anyway it's it's a viewpoint that you don't hear. [TS]

01:56:12   I'd like I don't know the couple getting PA guess I'd listen to but none really regularly [TS]

01:56:16   and I find myself listening to this one because it's like if you point I don't get elsewhere I'll give it another shot [TS]

01:56:21   because I want to hear that cast talk like I follow most of them on Twitter. [TS]

01:56:27   Like I want to hear them talk but I just I'm so not in. I'm so not a gamer. [TS]

01:56:33   I feel I feel the same way there's a lot of references and vocabulary and you know like talk. [TS]

01:56:39   They just assume everyone knows that these things are in a couple of discussion about it [TS]

01:56:43   and it's like I don't have the context even though it is the you're talking about [TS]

01:56:45   but you see I mean I don't know maybe Casey will know if he's a lapsed game [TS]

01:56:48   or whatever I think he's probably equally lapsed or similarly lapsed. [TS]

01:56:53   Yeah I was actually about to say you're the bigger X. [TS]

01:56:56   Gamer than I I think so you and I can fight over who who used to be a bigger concern is that it is a worse game [TS]

01:57:03   or now [TS]

01:57:04   and I think it's good actually to listen to the show because if you only follow like like Brown are Matty on Twitter [TS]

01:57:10   and you're going to see them as like the person who is you know fighting for equality [TS]

01:57:15   and being the victim of harassment I really like that you might start to forget that there are actual people. [TS]

01:57:20   It wasn't as though the actual metric you will realize there are actual normal people who just like they don't spend [TS]

01:57:25   their entire time just being angry about feminism which is that crazy viewpoint people might get if they just like well [TS]

01:57:31   they only ever see them [TS]

01:57:31   when they retreated by somebody a million times like these are people that there are actual people with who have actual [TS]

01:57:38   interests and lives and jobs and families and feelings [TS]

01:57:41   and all the stuff that is a that is a side benefit of having to listen to a podcast of these type of people who are [TS]

01:57:48   active on these issues to realize just because you're active on this issue. Leggo my other regular people to imagine. [TS]

01:57:55   Yeah the reason I haven't listened to it yet it's because not not at all because of the whole. [TS]

01:58:00   In fact everything I've heard is that the hosts have an incredible amount of chemistry [TS]

01:58:05   but because I am completely ignorant [TS]

01:58:08   and clueless about about anything videogame related I just kind of assumed that I would be completely lost. [TS]

01:58:17   So over Steve admit that he's done everything to me and then he watches and unlike in the case it was of that show. [TS]

01:58:28   Well how do you really feel. I don't think I've seen any of your perfect you know I've seen it I've seen it many times. [TS]

01:58:35   Thing Brianna's only thought is on Twitter [TS]

01:58:38   but I can't wait for the episode where she talks about how much she liked the prequels the story Spiegel. [TS]

01:58:42   Oh my God this is I told you this is a diversity of opinion. [TS]

01:58:47   Some of them are terribly wrong but if they're diverse you know for what it's worth. [TS]

01:58:52   Terminator two and Top Gun where the two movies that we had on laserdisc that movie had many believe there's a what. [TS]

01:59:01   Yeah [TS]

01:59:02   but they're not the company vs two movies in particular were amazing for using the scroll wheel that was on the remote [TS]

01:59:10   controlled you know what I'm talking about. [TS]

01:59:12   So it's kind of like what you call the thing on the i Pod the clickwheel or whatever you call it [TS]

01:59:17   but there was no clicking to it but you could go frame by frame because it was digital. Well it kind of wasn't. [TS]

01:59:24   You're right it was weird like it represented analog video signals on a digital medium it was it was very strange I'm [TS]

01:59:32   not too familiar with the details [TS]

01:59:33   but one of the things that it always of the audio there was that it all audio I believe was digital [TS]

01:59:38   but the video was not [TS]

01:59:39   but it was weird it with the Jewish It was very strange yet so the point I'm driving at though is when [TS]

01:59:45   when the Terminator thing would come out of the wrecked eighteen wheelers spoiler alert [TS]

01:59:51   and go from like liquid to person I remember just sitting there with the with the remote control spinning backwards [TS]

01:59:58   and forwards and backwards and forwards why. [TS]

02:00:00   Especially to go frame by frame and it was amazing [TS]

02:00:02   and then Top Gun was awesome because it was a perfect example of surround sound which back in whatever the hell you [TS]

02:00:09   know this was was like a really new thing to have at home and my goodness it was amazing. [TS]

02:00:17   Each something ologist in the chat is shit. [TS]

02:00:20   TOLLAND just says the control of the remote was a jock shuttle controller someone higher [TS]

02:00:24   and V.C.R.'s have them too that's what I'm talking about and you know it was it was amazing. [TS]

02:00:28   Laserdiscs was better than laser disks were better than I think they got credit for just I forgot we had this. [TS]

02:00:35   That you went through and marked down because we're never gonna get there one system and I didn't come this way. [TS]

02:00:39   I'm too whatever let's do it with them. Cut out all the stubble is just in the middle. [TS]

02:00:43   Yeah the stuff on with that of the N.S.A. [TS]

02:00:45   And I think we dispense with this quickly because we all agree [TS]

02:00:48   and keeping on the pan stuff all right go from of course button fly agenda. [TS]

02:00:52   Let's talk about markdown standard markdown complex markdown conventional markdown whatever the current flavor is [TS]

02:00:59   strict markdown. Well Kim Can one of you give me a quick summary about this. [TS]

02:01:05   So the summary is John government marked down a long time ago he likes it. [TS]

02:01:09   Other people think there are problems with it [TS]

02:01:11   but they want to use variants of markdown there are many variants of markdown exist as multi markdown there is good [TS]

02:01:17   hope flavored markdown there's all sorts of different kinds of mark out one particular person has been upset with the [TS]

02:01:23   way John Gerber's arcana works for a long time that Jeff would have coding har he made a blog post two years ago that I [TS]

02:01:29   really wish that markdown could be a better maintained and better defined in the spec. [TS]

02:01:35   If you could reduce ambiguity than bugs could be fixed because we all want to use markdown [TS]

02:01:39   but everybody uses a different implementation of markdown is just a giant mess so recently came out with something that [TS]

02:01:45   he was calling standard markdown which was a much more highly specified variant of markdown where they were removed [TS]

02:01:55   or reduced vastly reduced the ambiguities in language to say this is how we were. [TS]

02:02:00   Into Work Here's a test suite Here's a sample of the patients here the specification there ever if everyone complies [TS]

02:02:05   with this we will have marked down that agrees with each other and everything will be fine. [TS]

02:02:09   That was all well [TS]

02:02:10   and good except for the fact that he called it standard mark which was a slap in the face to Gruber because how can I [TS]

02:02:17   make he might as well call that the official real markdown. [TS]

02:02:20   I'm not involved in the name of the one [TS]

02:02:22   and only genuine official real mark down that was a bad choice of names for many many reasons as it makes it seem like [TS]

02:02:29   that this is the one and only official mark down [TS]

02:02:32   when that is the case is a million different kinds of markdown it makes it seem like they are the people who are sort [TS]

02:02:37   of owning control markdown which is not the case they don't want to control mark down and so that was dumb [TS]

02:02:43   and it's a shame because I agree with the goals of better mark and specification even though I don't like markdown [TS]

02:02:50   but I don't agree here. [TS]

02:02:52   Calling your thing the one and only superficial totally the main forget about all the ones marked down. [TS]

02:02:59   They should've you know different name like just and here's the thing about the name. [TS]

02:03:05   If they pick a different name like football like that was a name to stop all that would have been fine too. [TS]

02:03:11   Like I don't think it would have hurt their cause it all anyway. [TS]

02:03:14   They since renamed it the common mark down I don't see how that's any real well known here the best thing about that I [TS]

02:03:19   have you read as I read I think it's slightly less terrible. [TS]

02:03:22   No but here's the best thing about the post like I read it before [TS]

02:03:24   and it starts off going to like we were sorry we made a mistake. [TS]

02:03:28   John Grover made demands he want to take down our domains that are market com not have it redirected he wants us to [TS]

02:03:34   rename our thing he wants to apologize and he did all those things [TS]

02:03:38   but what they renamed it to was like we gave we sent a bunch of these names [TS]

02:03:41   and we said what about this name that name any other name [TS]

02:03:43   and we didn't get a reply so we're using kind of markdown What do you do [TS]

02:03:46   when you can't change the name with like the whole point is called something it doesn't have marked down in the name. [TS]

02:03:52   You're fine with that call it whatever you want call it you know call it hand turkey call it whatever you want. [TS]

02:03:58   Like that's fine right. [TS]

02:04:00   Or call something with Mark down the name they groom approves of you can say we're going to do everything you say we're [TS]

02:04:05   going to rename it and both a new suggestion of a name [TS]

02:04:07   but we got tired of waiting so we have to take one that we felt like it and common. [TS]

02:04:10   Not really much better it sounds like it's like Common Lisp like it sounds like the official one [TS]

02:04:15   and only like they're sabotaging their own cause their own cause is good I think it is good to have what they're doing [TS]

02:04:21   technically is good what they're doing socially is bad it's very bad [TS]

02:04:25   and they seem to just like it's like shoot themselves in the foot reload the gun pointed the other foot [TS]

02:04:30   and they're like grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory here. [TS]

02:04:35   I mean and that's the thing with this like you know following I follow Jeff Atwood loosely and [TS]

02:04:42   and even following him loosely I've seen ever since they started Stack Overflow how many years ago was that eight years [TS]

02:04:49   ago it's been a long time ever since I started stack overflow with which included markdown. [TS]

02:04:57   Jeff Atwood has been very hostile dismissive and condescending towards John Gruber and his ownership of markdown [TS]

02:05:04   and the hostility has been so clear the entire time. [TS]

02:05:08   It's very very clear that Jeff does not respect John and that and that Jeff feels that he is entitled [TS]

02:05:17   and that is other people involved but I think I think Jeff was pretty much running it for a while [TS]

02:05:22   and probably is still very important in this process. [TS]

02:05:26   This group of people very much obviously feels that they have the right to co-opt markdown because Gruber has not done [TS]

02:05:34   that much with it recently and the fact that it has not changed. [TS]

02:05:39   You know the better part of a decade that like there are so many I was little bit on Twitter earlier like there are so [TS]

02:05:46   many bad counterarguments he'll keep making to try to support what they're doing here. [TS]

02:05:51   One one of those bad can arguments is well good we're doesn't talk shit like a decade. [TS]

02:05:55   Well yeah the M P three file format hasn't changed in a few decades. [TS]

02:06:00   Neither has a jeep exile from a like there's that there are things that don't change the doesn't mean there that [TS]

02:06:04   doesn't mean they're neglected or abandoned. [TS]

02:06:05   But that doesn't matter like I mean it doesn't matter whether it's changed [TS]

02:06:09   and it doesn't none of them none of that really matters that's like stress explaining why Jeff is frustrated. [TS]

02:06:13   That's what it explains why are people frustrated Why are people doing this all Dungarpur stewardship of Mark [TS]

02:06:19   and explains why people have the feelings they feel right. [TS]

02:06:22   Because I think that is that is you know and I share those feelings frankly like any news markdowns I don't care [TS]

02:06:27   but I like but then what do you do with those feelings. That's where the rubber hits the road. I feel frustrated. [TS]

02:06:33   Then what then do you demand that something happens. No because you have no right to demand. [TS]

02:06:38   Would you like to fork it by all means to call it whatever you want you know make your own thing like you have so much [TS]

02:06:44   freedom available to you to do these things and groomers even OK with things like multi Marketing get get out Mark [TS]

02:06:50   and ask him hey we're going to we're going to make I think it over. Mark asked permission right. [TS]

02:06:54   We're going to make some variant of markdown. We'd like to call X. Y. and Z. Thumbs up or thumbs down. [TS]

02:06:59   Why does he have the quote unquote right to give back because he made markdown of the name that he made up for thing [TS]

02:07:04   that he made like it's just common courtesy. [TS]

02:07:08   Like it just ignore all the galaxies entirely is just like it's just common courtesy like even to say like well as Mark [TS]

02:07:15   and that would have made my own thing maybe you would have [TS]

02:07:18   but it wouldn't be called mark down what it would be called out of the whole name that you made up so make up your own [TS]

02:07:21   name and so like the technical issues it was all [TS]

02:07:24   and like the you know the entitlement to whatever like that is all just an explanation of why people feel the way they [TS]

02:07:30   feel but none of it just by the actions that are going on in the actions [TS]

02:07:33   and justified like in terms of just not even like morally or ethically or legally [TS]

02:07:38   but just like being a nice personally whatever word that says just and even practically speaking. [TS]

02:07:45   Forget about being a nice person. [TS]

02:07:46   Practically speaking if you want your partner to be successful I don't shoot it like don't get all start off on the [TS]

02:07:52   wrong foot like there's no reason I totally applaud this effort that I think love [TS]

02:07:56   or they've gone through to try to standardize what is an ill specified. Just probably untenable. [TS]

02:08:03   Market system to be every aspirant like they've made a heroic effort [TS]

02:08:07   and just destroy it all by doing something jerky like why why would you get it so unnecessary like you know no no one [TS]

02:08:14   is objecting to them making a standardized markdown syntax. [TS]

02:08:19   No one as yet know that the only thing people are getting to legitimately is the name [TS]

02:08:26   and what the name represents co-opting trying to co-opt something that's what it's like the name is the embodiment of [TS]

02:08:32   that attempt to co-opt the name is like we are trying to co-opt this thing. [TS]

02:08:36   I guess we feel like it is not to maintain even the attitude in jest post tonight that they that after the after the [TS]

02:08:42   public outcry from from a lot of people about the standard markdown which is an incredibly arrogant name to co-opt [TS]

02:08:50   someone else's project and call yours the standard. [TS]

02:08:53   After that this post saying that they were in a car markets like we were you basically says is so. [TS]

02:09:02   We replied to John Gruber with these list of names. [TS]

02:09:05   That all still contain the word markdown and are all compatible markdown regular markdown communally. [TS]

02:09:12   I mean Grover said he's OK He's OK with like some variant of markdown like [TS]

02:09:16   but you know it's like he gave like pedantic pedantic markdown was it that he thing he thought he might have [TS]

02:09:21   but the whole point [TS]

02:09:22   and he said he said strict markdown which I think that I think that would be descriptive I would now be OK with strict [TS]

02:09:27   markdown either of us still sounds like what they should do is don't use the word markdown at all. [TS]

02:09:33   Yeah that that would leave them completely in the clear. [TS]

02:09:37   We know morally argumentatively and let their project proceed into something productive. [TS]

02:09:42   Right now it's always going to have this this asterisk on it's always going to be controversial [TS]

02:09:48   and then the worst thing is if you read this post or like so Jeff's so we so you know grammar and he sent an email. [TS]

02:09:57   They reply that with this list of suggestions. [TS]

02:10:00   Last night [TS]

02:10:01   and tonight they haven't received a response in twenty four hours they just picked one of their suggestions [TS]

02:10:07   and assume groupers OK with that. [TS]

02:10:09   You were reading the post I said that before [TS]

02:10:10   but yes I can't I go I go hard you know you have you know you haven't gotten permission that is so it's so rash [TS]

02:10:20   and unnecessarily inflammatory like seriously just caught something else you will avoid all of these problems. [TS]

02:10:26   Just call it anything else so that your project can have one hundred percent credibility without all this controversy. [TS]

02:10:35   There is no reason and even this post the way anyone about this [TS]

02:10:40   and the way they just assume they had permission after twenty four hours of no objection like what's the hurry. [TS]

02:10:45   That's so arrogant that is so that is so just. That's a terrible move. [TS]

02:10:51   It's such a huge difference if it's a temp thing is attempting to force someone's hand by well wouldn't hear of you for [TS]

02:10:56   a day so we're just going to go forward there's not going to force you to react and it's not playing that game [TS]

02:11:00   and its history. [TS]

02:11:00   Yeah it's this is awful I mean I don't think I don't think that was a bad guy I've met him a couple times to talk to [TS]

02:11:06   him a couple times I don't think he's a bad guy but this is just so incredibly tone deaf and it really does. [TS]

02:11:13   It just it's and it's so easily avoidable. This project is brand new Jeff Atwood has a hell of a microphone. [TS]

02:11:21   You can call it anything you want [TS]

02:11:23   and it will get off the ground just as well as if you call it anything marked out you can call it anything. [TS]

02:11:29   Yet also arrive on its own merits [TS]

02:11:31   and the merits are substantial because they are there for filling a market need for these three very very popular Web [TS]

02:11:36   sites that want to stand on I think go ahead standardize it taken out of a hat you know like have a little contest for [TS]

02:11:41   a name like you did for the second or follow it like when you have the tools to do this. [TS]

02:11:46   Yeah like you can you can really you can call it anything and this is the time to do that [TS]

02:11:51   when a project has just gotten off the ground it's just starting it's brand new you know your version of it is brand [TS]

02:11:56   new and that's the only thing that's up. Problem is the name. Just fix it. Not a big deal. [TS]

02:12:04   Yeah the Roman elsewhere on the web are like well the B.S.D. License on markdown the P.L.O. [TS]

02:12:09   Which is the perl file that implements markdown a girl made says that you can use the name markdown and blah blah blah. [TS]

02:12:14   All of that is irrelevant because that applies to the source code and nobody using that source code. [TS]

02:12:21   They're all trying to do their own independent involved nations anyway. [TS]

02:12:24   This has nothing to do with legality and everything to do with like not sabotaging yourself [TS]

02:12:29   and not being a jerk like that's it like you know [TS]

02:12:31   and I don't think we're bored ever pursue it legally because that would be kind of pointless. [TS]

02:12:35   It's like it's all about being nice to people [TS]

02:12:37   and the reason they don't they don't get replies is because they've been you know not just in so many times would you [TS]

02:12:43   keep replying to moments like what do you expect it's like well if you know I can reply We're just going to talk your [TS]

02:12:48   thing and be jerks about it and it's like well you can be jerks better not to respond [TS]

02:12:51   or you know well you know his bottom a mound is going to pick another name anyway. [TS]

02:12:54   Like this needless needless drama that just yeah I mean I knew as soon as that center mark down the starting time [TS]

02:13:03   or doesn't like it last very long and sure enough but I I have to admit that I was surprised [TS]

02:13:07   when the rename post came and the new name was with no permission and no blessing common marked out like a light. [TS]

02:13:15   I was so hopeful my God this is speedy they were they realize their mistake sooner [TS]

02:13:18   and they're correcting it in the doing or they're supposed to look. [TS]

02:13:22   Yeah well and again it's you can you can tell the attitude of this post and that's how they're going about this. [TS]

02:13:28   It's more of the same that they not only do they feel entitled to only mark down themselves [TS]

02:13:34   but they really do not respect John Gruber at all and they don't respect him as a person even [TS]

02:13:41   and that that has become very clear here. They really really look down upon him. [TS]

02:13:46   Well they don't respect him as an open source project maintainer [TS]

02:13:48   and I think it's a terrible open source version maintainer [TS]

02:13:51   but that doesn't give you the right to be a jerk like you can you can have an ever opinion you want about that you can [TS]

02:13:56   be like oh I don't like the way felt fine great you don't like the way you handle it it is like the way you. [TS]

02:14:00   And a lot your products do and that doesn't. [TS]

02:14:02   Therefore I get to do this no not therefore you get to do that and no it doesn't follow. [TS]

02:14:07   So it's like they're giving into their their frustrations on technical and sort of you know issues of stewardship [TS]

02:14:13   and stuff it's like feel free to have those feelings. [TS]

02:14:15   But like you cannot parlay those feelings into being a jerk and say well justified because this guy's not good. [TS]

02:14:20   He would doesn't he isn't running is probably the way I would run it. [TS]

02:14:24   Yeah well different project one of the way you want. [TS]

02:14:27   So I try because I'm an idiot to respond to most of the mail I get [TS]

02:14:33   and all cation Lee I'll get just extremely kind generous wonderful e-mails you know long it takes me to reply to most [TS]

02:14:43   of those. [TS]

02:14:44   Somewhere between one and three weeks because I get so much freakin e-mail [TS]

02:14:48   and I am nowhere near the level of celebrity that John Gruber. [TS]

02:14:52   He didn't not respond if you know around an e-mail he didn't respond he didn't want to respond. [TS]

02:14:56   And like honestly even if he totally planned to respond. What's wrong with him taking a day or two to think about it. [TS]

02:15:01   Like what's the big rush. [TS]

02:15:02   It's like here's here's the big thing about this like like somebody in the chair just said here is a tangible goods in [TS]

02:15:08   the chat just said Yeah I think all the disrespect comes from the fact that Gruber doesn't want to blank [TS]

02:15:12   or going off the pot when it comes to markdown like what people I think are not understanding. [TS]

02:15:20   Well and this argument is that John Gruber has no obligation to do anything with markdown. [TS]

02:15:25   He has no obligation at all to respond to Jeff with the e-mails he has an obligation at all to make changes that people [TS]

02:15:33   want or to fix perceived or actual bugs or problems with Mark down. It's his project. [TS]

02:15:38   He he owns it like that [TS]

02:15:41   and again leaving aside the legalities of things like trademarks you know that's those are all arguable. [TS]

02:15:46   I think just common sense looking at this he owns this and to to think that you can just go up and take it as yours [TS]

02:15:55   and say well he doesn't seem to be using it so we're going to take the project over. [TS]

02:16:00   You know there's a way to do that respectfully and the way to do that respectfully is to fork it [TS]

02:16:05   and use your own branding period and not try to commandeer his because it does not matter what what he is doing [TS]

02:16:14   or not doing with it it is still his and there is nothing wrong with you doing your own take on it with your name [TS]

02:16:24   and in the normal open source world. [TS]

02:16:26   People get super pissed about forks and stuff [TS]

02:16:28   and Gruber's like fine forget like he is being a much nicer than most maintainers open source products are alike who [TS]

02:16:34   view any kind of fork at the hostel a tenth takeover especially if you give it a new name [TS]

02:16:38   and it's like you want to be the new thing it's like no way we're like They hate that group was like go ahead like do [TS]

02:16:44   whatever you want. Like Mark I was not hard to MY yourself you don't need a source code at all it's a B.S.D. [TS]

02:16:49   License if you want to then you can use and be willing to give you the source code. [TS]

02:16:52   LOL you know you've been a marked out the like it's like go ahead call them to what you want make your own thing like I [TS]

02:16:57   don't care this is my thing. Feel free to have your thing here in the grand scheme of maintainers open source. [TS]

02:17:03   He is incredibly generous of going to be willing to let you do with his idea [TS]

02:17:07   and his source code it's not even like G.P.L. Is like a B.S.D. Variant. [TS]

02:17:12   He's willing to let people make things called insert modifier here markdown which way more than most other open source [TS]

02:17:17   people let you do. Try doing that with Twitter right. [TS]

02:17:20   Try to you know I don't know maybe prosperous is good [TS]

02:17:22   but I try to try to make like you know a standard my sequence you know much the mice you know like what you know [TS]

02:17:30   and it's just it's all this comes from frustration like he's not running a project the right way [TS]

02:17:34   and he's not running the process the way I would want I agree with all the things I do not think is right in front of [TS]

02:17:37   your oh I don't think it rain to our runner [TS]

02:17:39   but you can't then just doesn't fall this is huge gap between disagreeing what someone's doing with their project [TS]

02:17:48   and you deciding that you are now you are now the standard bearer for that project that you did not start. [TS]

02:17:54   All right we got that pretty early I think it's pretty open close I think common markdown will not last. [TS]

02:18:00   Name then we will see more of this but there's a time and I think that will come and erase all this [TS]

02:18:03   and so maybe we'll talk about it five shows from now [TS]

02:18:05   when it is called Something that does not have marked down the name and we finally get this all behind us. [TS]

02:18:10   Do you really think he's going to change in him again I don't think you will it's gotta change can't leave it is common [TS]

02:18:14   it's ridiculous there's too much too many people think is a jerk for doing it and they're right. [TS]

02:18:18   But the attitude he has in this post does not fill me with hope that he's going to admit that this was not good [TS]

02:18:26   and change it again. Amen. [TS]

02:18:28   Once he admitted that he screwed up the first time [TS]

02:18:32   and then screwed up a second time so I'm going to write a third time. [TS]

02:18:36   Right I think it's interesting like not one of the names that he suggested to Gruber didn't contain markdown program [TS]

02:18:45   or had said he's OK with like pedantic markdown [TS]

02:18:47   or maybe even struck Marquel like there is a precedent for modifier markdown to Gruber is OK We're going to get [TS]

02:18:52   permission to be just fine use it [TS]

02:18:53   but if he does if he says if he doesn't say find any your name then just begun No it's really easy. [TS]

02:18:59   Yeah it's you know going back to your discussion about good [TS]

02:19:02   and bad business like which I merely was on a much more important topic [TS]

02:19:05   but I still like it if this is just bad business like if you want your standard to actually have power to have a chance [TS]

02:19:13   of becoming quote a standard as instead of as you say it standard you know insert X K C D comic here instead of you [TS]

02:19:20   saying that for it to actually be adopted to be widely out there to be powerful to be the standard they can't have [TS]

02:19:29   stupid crap like this time get down like stupid crap like the stupid argument about the name. [TS]

02:19:34   It's a it's a sideshow it's a distraction [TS]

02:19:36   and people say well this sideshow is good for the city Jeff Atwood does not need this sideshow to make proposals like [TS]

02:19:41   it some people may need this kind of because otherwise been no one noticed that Jeff Atwood does not need this it is [TS]

02:19:46   all downside for him. [TS]

02:19:47   Exactly [TS]

02:19:49   and it's angering a lot of people in the community of people he needs to attract people people like Mark down those [TS]

02:19:56   people. Yeah there's a lot of those like those the people you don't want to piss off people like me. [TS]

02:20:00   Who cares I don't use Martin and I don't care and even I'm against them [TS]

02:20:03   and it's like the people love markdown really hates you for doing this. [TS]

02:20:06   You know his like and markdown has spread it has become so widespread because of people like Jeff Atwood [TS]

02:20:14   and like me like markdown is on tumblr because I put it there because David didn't really know what it was or care [TS]

02:20:21   and I wanted it there so one day when tumblr was still really small I just put it there. [TS]

02:20:26   Markdown is on Stack Overflow because Jeff Atwood was the co-founder of Stack Overflow [TS]

02:20:31   and one day he wanted it there so he put it there. [TS]

02:20:34   It's this kind of community of people it's people who read John Gruber site who fall so for those who are part of this [TS]

02:20:42   community who are you know programmers who are who are into the sort of stuff who follow the stuff online. [TS]

02:20:47   It's people like us who are responsible for the spread of this kind of technology [TS]

02:20:52   and the spread of these kind of standards are non-standard it's this community that he is polarising by by being a dick [TS]

02:20:59   about the name [TS]

02:21:00   and that will really harm this if he has to he has to not let people just do it on such a trivial ground as he stole [TS]

02:21:10   the name in kind of take it away like let people of Jeff to it over its merits or let it win on its merits. [TS]

02:21:17   Don't give people stupid animal like this that is so easily avoided it so easily changed because that that ultimately [TS]

02:21:25   is harming the goal he's trying to achieve and in what I think is a bigger way than he realizes. [TS]

02:21:31   Yeah but it's only been less trusting twenty four hours now. So anyway. [TS]

02:21:37   Well revisit after some time in advance even came in the meantime let's keep doing what you're doing if you even if you [TS]

02:21:45   tiny American flags for some mark down for others. [TS]

02:21:48   So apparently there's a Personally I don't understand that reference second right after enough of the quote So you're [TS]

02:21:55   forgiven. It's also the second time you use that reference on our show I use it way more than two times. [TS]

02:22:00   My life believe me. Let's do titles. Accidental markdown. Now do you do anything for fun. [TS]

02:22:07   I feel like that's worth it just to shame John but it's probably not the best came in for what is a shame you do not. [TS]

02:22:14   Nothing able to think of things I do for fun despite the fact we talk about them constantly do nothing for nothing [TS]

02:22:20   other than those those things that we constantly talk about. You do nothing outside the house for fun. [TS]

02:22:25   Letter to stump you got of the question for you guys to come over the things I do for fun outside the house I bet you [TS]

02:22:31   can. I guess you can play games outside your house on portable device. [TS]

02:22:35   No no that's true but go to the movies where the movies there at the movie theaters [TS]

02:22:40   and times where you did are outside the house arrest Ratu ever going to restaurants are they [TS]

02:22:44   and how do you enjoy restaurants that you know he does not and I'm sure as I'm a New York more than I can go there [TS]

02:22:49   but I do enjoy them but I don't enjoy restaurants I do I have a prime rib. Who doesn't enjoy that that's good stuff. [TS]

02:22:59   That was pretty good. That happens once a year if I know in the middle of a trip that makes you miserable. [TS]

02:23:06   I don't enjoy travelling [TS]

02:23:07   but I try to be there although the night after that as a parent I feel like someone should we only back to the hotel [TS]

02:23:12   but that's my experience. How tall are you John. [TS]

02:23:16   Six to a ship three of them like that all hundred fifty pounds [TS]

02:23:20   and six foot two inches of you yeah you really I thought I clean my plate there's nothing left [TS]

02:23:26   and I'm not going to haul Brent Simmons thing that's it he is the desert flies that's hardcore. [TS]

02:23:32   Forget it I can't do that. Two years in a row I have eaten the entire thing. [TS]

02:23:37   So good it is OK [TS]

02:23:39   and I really like the markdown titles the real official markdown would be a good title for the markdown part of the [TS]

02:23:46   thing but that's you know two and a half hours in Arizona going to see the title and the like [TS]

02:23:51   but only into the fire we're expecting another reference I mean a million times [TS]

02:23:54   and I will keep making you cannot stop me if you don't have to make me give it. [TS]

02:24:00   Peter you should know you have your own reference as you can reference things that I haven't seen like Saved By The [TS]

02:24:06   Bell or something you know I don't know what you kids are into. [TS]

02:24:09   I made a hunt for an October reference on Twitter earlier in a five and a handful of people got it [TS]

02:24:13   and I was very happy with myself. [TS]

02:24:16   But you know common ground references understand you can feel free to make revenue is that I don't get if you think [TS]

02:24:20   there are any and some of the challenge by so they should be playing fish Saved By The Bell. [TS]

02:24:26   Dave Matthews Band don't know anything about like rap [TS]

02:24:28   or that thing something tycoon train tycoon rail to railroad taken transport Teicher have Boris not just railroads all [TS]

02:24:35   transparent like it was. Was worse. Please email Casey I can't believe you're going to China. [TS]

02:24:43   I seriously thought about it I had a plan but in the end they cannot justify an expense. [TS]

02:24:50   And yes the discomfort of the travel that is a factor got discounted the spreadsheet said no I cannot go north on a [TS]

02:25:00   spreadsheet It's called weighing the reasons for and against. Everybody does in their head whether they know it or not. [TS]

02:25:06   Unfortunately a lot of people [TS]

02:25:07   when I make decisions have invisible columns weighing down their invisible spreadsheet they don't know the spreadsheet [TS]

02:25:13   and I don't know what many of the columns and they just make decisions [TS]

02:25:15   and don't understand what they're made by just because I understand what factors into my decision does not mean I'm [TS]

02:25:19   making decisions in a different way than other people. [TS]

02:25:22   All your columns are labeled their least visible most of them I think most of them are visible. [TS]