The Accidental Tech Podcast

88: Standing on Opposite Sides of the Gym


00:00:01   So this is what people tune in for. [TS]

00:00:05   Well it doesn't matter because they're here anyway so this is what they're going to get [TS]

00:00:12   and say let's do some follow up. [TS]

00:00:16   Why don't we talk about how my life took a turn for the better a day or two ago [TS]

00:00:22   and no we did not have sprout yet Sprout is still not born [TS]

00:00:26   but I saw a tweet from our mutual friend Michael journalists [TS]

00:00:30   and he said something that I did not realize what he said was that for you to use I keep calling it a semester relay [TS]

00:00:40   I'm not sure if that's a blessed term or not. But for you to use US must relay on Iowa State in Yosemite. [TS]

00:00:48   It actually does not require Bluetooth low energy like a lot of other new continuity things do it instead just requires [TS]

00:00:57   both devices to be on an active network and I haven't done any testing to decide to determine exactly what that is [TS]

00:01:05   but I've heard rumblings that basically as long as your phone is logged into your i Cloud account [TS]

00:01:12   and connect to the Internet someway somehow [TS]

00:01:14   and the computer that you're using is connected to that same icloud account [TS]

00:01:19   and on the Internet some way somehow then apparently you can send text messages by way of your phone which is amazing [TS]

00:01:27   because I didn't think that that was a possibility with our political energy. [TS]

00:01:33   Yeah the sweet was a nice summary to try to fit into a single tweet all the different requirements for the different [TS]

00:01:38   continuity related features a poll put a link to the tweet in the show notes [TS]

00:01:41   but the summary is hand off tethering airdrop needs to do it all [TS]

00:01:45   and low energy as a Methodist both in network connections and the phone calling stuff they may need never connections [TS]

00:01:51   or need to be on the same network. [TS]

00:01:53   Now this is compressed into a tweet so if there are technical nuances that didn't fit in the tweet don't blame Gerry [TS]

00:01:58   blame us for just relaying. [TS]

00:02:00   But it's a reasonable summary of this this type of information is difficult to convey to people because even if you [TS]

00:02:06   tell them for example that hand-off uses Bluetooth all energy to discover things nobody knows of their MCAS Bluetooth [TS]

00:02:11   way you know we know the Bluetooth energy is so they see these features or even you know read about them I review [TS]

00:02:17   and they're disappointed that they can't do it and you know they don't know if they have something called B T L E. [TS]

00:02:22   So it's it's just a shame really because I don't think Apple needs to communicate effectively alliances [TS]

00:02:28   but the bottom line is that if your machine doesn't have Bluetooth low energy you're not going to be scanning with a [TS]

00:02:33   regular bluetooth at full energy all the time on the phone [TS]

00:02:36   and a mac to be able to do hand off you know the future for the future to be feasible relies on low energy. [TS]

00:02:42   So and you know that the S. and I thing that make sense they can coordinated through all through the server. [TS]

00:02:47   The phone I still quite understand tactically of why they need to be on the same network why you know they don't the [TS]

00:02:53   apparently need to be in Bluetooth range you know me I know you don't need to pair them. [TS]

00:02:57   But anyway it's a magical mystical voodoo and all these weird technical details will be moot in five years [TS]

00:03:04   when everybody's gears has all the stuff but for now it's a little weird if you've got an older Mac. [TS]

00:03:08   You may not get all the things right not so I was so excited because with the exception of Aaron's macro care which is [TS]

00:03:14   what I used to record the newest Mack in the house is a late twentieth Levin hire as anywhere MacBook Pro which I've [TS]

00:03:21   talked about numerous times on the show and that is pre Bluetooth low energy [TS]

00:03:24   and so like I said before I was devastated. [TS]

00:03:27   That's a strong word but I was really sad that I wasn't to be able to use a lot of this continuity stuff [TS]

00:03:32   and as it turns out I haven't tried the phone thing although that should work [TS]

00:03:36   but I have absolutely tried the semester relay and it's really awesome. [TS]

00:03:40   I really said to Miss airdrop that I am most upset about of the things I'm missing because I can't tell her with my [TS]

00:03:48   phone and because I'm on an unlimited plan for meeting T. Still and handoff. [TS]

00:03:54   I don't you know don't use Apple Mail I use their mail so yeah but I was really really accept. [TS]

00:04:00   I did to try to see that as a mess really works. Can we can we break apart the tethering thing for a second. [TS]

00:04:06   How much data per month do you typically use. [TS]

00:04:08   Oh this is where you basically back me into realizing that there is no need for me to hold on to the unlimited plan [TS]

00:04:15   that is that that is a known issue and I I don't really know why I haven't gotten rid of it yet but I haven't [TS]

00:04:24   and there's no reasonable reason for me to still have it and to answer your question I haven't looked in a while [TS]

00:04:31   but I guess I use between two and two and three gigs a month. [TS]

00:04:35   Aaron is still on a two hundred megabytes a month plan and I keep begging her to let me get her more. [TS]

00:04:41   She doesn't really use it [TS]

00:04:42   and especially now that she's at home almost all the time doesn't really need more than that [TS]

00:04:48   and so there's almost no need for us to. [TS]

00:04:52   No need for us to upgrade now I haven't crunch the numbers [TS]

00:04:55   but my limited understanding is it would probably actually be cheaper for us to ditch a limited plan [TS]

00:05:00   and just get on a shared plan. But whatever. [TS]

00:05:03   Get a tip and I did that recently she was still on the mill just because she never had any reason to change it. [TS]

00:05:08   I had given it up for tethering long ago [TS]

00:05:10   but yet we found I think combined we use something like two gigs a month on average [TS]

00:05:16   and it doesn't really change that much month a month so I would I would venture a guess that if you had tethering not [TS]

00:05:24   only would you probably be paying less per month with this with a combined plan [TS]

00:05:28   but I would guess that whatever benefit to your life unlimited data sounds like it might eventually possibly someday [TS]

00:05:34   maybe provide and that is if a T.V. [TS]

00:05:36   Doesn't throttle you too much in the meantime which they do not really unlimited anymore. [TS]

00:05:41   Whatever benefit it's providing to you I bet the benefit of going to a tethering plan would be greater. [TS]

00:05:46   I think you're right and as you just pointed out in P.T. [TS]

00:05:50   or In the chat also pointed out one time I got to either three or four gigs I think it was three [TS]

00:05:57   and eight hundred eighty different. [TS]

00:06:00   He sent me a nasty gram saying yeah we're going to slow everything down until the end of the month. Have fun with that. [TS]

00:06:05   Yes So you know you're basically not getting unlimited data [TS]

00:06:07   and even great you might you might as well get the benefits of getting rid of the plan and getting the new features. [TS]

00:06:13   Yeah I know you're right like it's one of those things that momentum is keeping me going in this probably silly [TS]

00:06:18   wasteful direction so me whatever. So John you were saying about political energy. [TS]

00:06:23   Continuing our air drop right the lack of air drop is someone made less painful between I.R.S. [TS]

00:06:31   and Maximises made less painful if you have an older Americans supported by I was hair extensions now there are so many [TS]

00:06:37   more ways from any Apple the reasonable I was a extension support to you know to use a share extension to press to push [TS]

00:06:46   your files from one place the other whether I mean I guess you go do it [TS]

00:06:49   and a lot of apps supported Dropbox you go to need to do that [TS]

00:06:52   but also things like I mean her viewing is like transmit fry us to transfer files back [TS]

00:06:56   and forth like you're not as trapped in individual I.O.'s out now as you used to be reliant on Apple's built in airdrop [TS]

00:07:03   to be the way that you quickly transfer any content from from your i was devised here Max dice. [TS]

00:07:12   Yeah I think also i Cloud Drive I think is going to be a bigger deal than we all think it is like I think we're [TS]

00:07:19   probably underestimating it because bringing a Dropbox like storage model to any i OS app that wants it is really nice [TS]

00:07:28   and I think that's going to have wide reaching ramifications if it works at all. [TS]

00:07:34   And John you seem to think that I was I was actually paying a lot of attention during that part of your review I mean [TS]

00:07:38   you know I paste into the whole thing of course [TS]

00:07:40   but particularly the i Cloud Drive part because I'm very interested in [TS]

00:07:46   and I'm really hoping that works very well because it can it can really help i O. S. [TS]

00:07:51   So much as the nice thing is that it's there it's on a reasonably level footing with all those other services that are [TS]

00:07:59   like. At including Dropbox or you know what is Google Drive or is Microsoft's things called one drive. [TS]

00:08:07   Anybody can you know once you're on that sheet that comes up with you're sharing things anybody can have something in [TS]

00:08:12   there. [TS]

00:08:13   So it's good that it's like if I if I could drive flakes out or ends up being unreliable [TS]

00:08:16   or something you have so many other options [TS]

00:08:18   and reliability is speaking of things they're so hard to gauge because any anything memory reviewing us anything that [TS]

00:08:26   relies on a server side component and it doesn't matter what bits Apple sends me in a developer build of the O. S. [TS]

00:08:32   There's a service I can point is either not get ready or not turned on or completely buggy. [TS]

00:08:37   You can't judge the future based on that at all and even [TS]

00:08:41   when you get what you think is the final build of Apple's servers are still being wonky. [TS]

00:08:45   It doesn't mean that the bits in the final build a bad it could just mean that the servers are still walking [TS]

00:08:49   and that you know the day of release they get that they push out the last you know build of the server software [TS]

00:08:55   and suddenly things work nicely after i Cloud Drive in the early betas you know either didn't work at all [TS]

00:09:01   or was totally buggy but that doesn't mean anything because they're still working out at that point [TS]

00:09:04   and then once it's did start working I had like this a series of tests that I went through to sort of gauge reliability [TS]

00:09:11   of transferring large files moon files doing files putting folder with a bunch of little files in it to try to ram it [TS]

00:09:16   through its paces [TS]

00:09:17   and I rewrote that i Cloud Drive sector many times because as it kept getting better I thought OK this is must be how [TS]

00:09:24   it's going to work and it's not that great and you know it's taking X. [TS]

00:09:27   Number of seconds for my changes to appear on two different Macs but he just got better [TS]

00:09:31   and better to the point where the time or the final version of that seconds like it more [TS]

00:09:35   or less works without any huge delays the U.I. [TS]

00:09:37   Issues I think are still a possible problem especially now that you see the Dropbox has a version out that uses the new [TS]

00:09:46   file think relations that extensions I'm assuming because it looks totally different. [TS]

00:09:50   How can you tell just because they're not over the actual full file or folder anymore. [TS]

00:09:53   Yeah they're not bad so I'm assuming that's using it I just noticed it today because I upgraded my work McAfee Assembly [TS]

00:09:59   last night. But yet like the U.I. [TS]

00:10:04   Issues [TS]

00:10:04   and reliability of the server parts not the client partners I think where the really it's the road with i Cloud Drive [TS]

00:10:11   because I mean there's more than one client is that there's all the access to it from various apps on i OS [TS]

00:10:16   and from you know the various extensions on Iowa State to get to this [TS]

00:10:20   and then of course as the finder is another client [TS]

00:10:22   and as a web client the one part that we all worry about Apple getting righted the server part we need to be a reliable [TS]

00:10:29   fast up all the time and because kind of like Dropbox imagine if you had Dropbox and you had a bunch of little icons [TS]

00:10:37   and they didn't have little green checks on them they just had like the little you know spinning blue I'm trying to [TS]

00:10:44   update thing and it never went green like what do you do about it you could drop by three launch it into a Dropbox [TS]

00:10:49   or install it. It's never really green. [TS]

00:10:51   Like that's the that's the thing with you know having a drop box [TS]

00:10:55   but if you did what is your recourse with all these cloud services especially even name drop boxes you have a like for [TS]

00:11:01   synchronize this file now please thing is just post the work right Emma doesn't you like I don't know what I can do [TS]

00:11:07   and so that's what I'm always worried about I gotta drive it so young I don't know like am I going to drag a file into [TS]

00:11:13   it on my mac or work in common to the files not there and I just wait [TS]

00:11:18   and stare at the folder wait for the file to appear. [TS]

00:11:20   Like what do I do that I don't I don't know there's not even having done so I disable or enable I drive it. [TS]

00:11:27   So far so good [TS]

00:11:27   but I have to admit that unless there is some compelling reason for me to leave Dropbox which I've been using for a [TS]

00:11:32   long time my habits are all built on I'm going to keep using Dropbox. Me I tend to agree. [TS]

00:11:39   I don't even know you needled i Cloud Drive I've not ever [TS]

00:11:43   and this is now the first time I've ever clicked on the i Cloud Drive item in my Finder sidebar. [TS]

00:11:50   Turns out there's stuff in there. Who knew. It does Dropbox and I last offered that file picker extension yet like so. [TS]

00:11:59   So it goes in the same. [TS]

00:12:00   Dialogue as i Cloud Drive I think it does I have and use an app with it [TS]

00:12:03   but I recall seeing screenshots of it maybe it might not be really haven't tried it I mean I I my habits around i O S [TS]

00:12:11   are not built around the expectation that there is anything like this available anywhere like i don't use any. [TS]

00:12:18   It used to be that individual apps would have to build in support for Dropbox and a lot of them did [TS]

00:12:23   but it just so happens that none of the apps that I use on a regular basis had these buildings or Dropbox [TS]

00:12:27   and all of that to do have the support arm simming are slowly changing to use the system way to get at that that same [TS]

00:12:33   extension. Yeah I hope so that's actually one thing like I in absolute I'm using. [TS]

00:12:39   It's actually really annoying now the ones that still present their own share sheets at their own custom share she [TS]

00:12:44   didn't use in the system one like that's one reason we know that [TS]

00:12:49   or is it just just a me thing I was kind of annoyed by the apps that I have that used to do a custom way [TS]

00:12:55   and now bring that giant sheet up because a lot of time I know I just want to go to paper [TS]

00:12:59   and I used to be one tap in the obvious and I can play it out now is to tattoo I mean I'll get over it [TS]

00:13:04   but like now it's to test specially because of the stupid bug where the reordering of the things doesn't stick. [TS]

00:13:09   Oh I don't know about that and I haven't written anything I have reordered it [TS]

00:13:12   and it is not stopping other people complain about it as well I don't know that [TS]

00:13:15   but anyway it used to be one tap on a button to send is the paper now it's one to have to bring up a giant sheet. [TS]

00:13:21   Luckily Instapaper is usually within one scrolling section but it's not like the upper left I want to [TS]

00:13:25   or I want to be and I tap into everything and I think so anyway. [TS]

00:13:30   I would much prefer it this way it's much better to have an extensible system is just we need the kinks to be worked [TS]

00:13:35   out of it first. The people in the chatter saying the dropbox doesn't yet have the document pick a thing and i O. S. [TS]

00:13:41   That's a shame if true but I mean the show that in the keynote but maybe the speculative like [TS]

00:13:45   and that Dropbox could make something like this and they just haven't done that yet. [TS]

00:13:49   I thought they kind of danced like IMO can be actually mentioned Dropbox by name [TS]

00:13:53   but I'm pretty sure like that was the very start of location like we're basically building this for Dropbox [TS]

00:13:58   and a couple other things like. [TS]

00:14:00   Since you know same thing with the badging essentially somebody is like we are basically don't it's entirety ability [TS]

00:14:05   for like drop box box [TS]

00:14:07   and one driver skydiver whatever Michael thing is our first punch of this week is back please go to back Blaze dot com [TS]

00:14:15   slash A.T.P. Backley is unlimited and untroubled online backup for just five bucks a month. [TS]

00:14:22   This is really I mean we talked about that place before. [TS]

00:14:25   So you know I don't need to tell you guys why you need cloud backup [TS]

00:14:29   but I will anyway because the fact is you know a backup somebody wise recently said [TS]

00:14:34   and I'm pretty sure this is a very old thing. [TS]

00:14:36   Somebody wiser recently said that a backup is not a back up if it isn't automatic. [TS]

00:14:42   And yes I know probably Aramis has said that before anyway moving on. [TS]

00:14:46   If you have some kind of backup system where you're only backing things up in your house then you could lose data. [TS]

00:14:52   If something happens to your house that would affect all the things in it [TS]

00:14:56   or other things plugged in so for example if you only have a computer with a time machine drive. [TS]

00:15:00   If you get a big power surge or a fire or flood or theft that will wipe out both of those things in all likelihood. [TS]

00:15:07   And so you don't want every copy of your data to be in your house or plugged into your computer all the time. [TS]

00:15:13   So you know most people have figured out along the way like oh and off site backup would be nice. [TS]

00:15:18   Also back with some sort [TS]

00:15:20   and the problem with that is that usually it's really really hard to ever remember to actually do it so most of the [TS]

00:15:24   time like you might have like a hard drive in you know at your parents' house [TS]

00:15:28   or work with some of your files on that you've last updated six months ago maybe at most you know [TS]

00:15:33   and then forgotten about. [TS]

00:15:35   With online backup it's so much better because it's just continuously happening in the background [TS]

00:15:39   or you're always backed up off site and the the class of problem that protects you from is so big [TS]

00:15:46   and it's so easy because you don't think about it. [TS]

00:15:49   You're just always being backed up online and among the cloud backup providers I've tried a number of them [TS]

00:15:57   and I personally stuck with backlit even before they were a spy. [TS]

00:16:00   Answer I chose them as the best for me and I think they'll be the best for you to do. [TS]

00:16:04   They're really extremely good so big things first unlimited disk space five bucks a month. That's it. [TS]

00:16:10   Also the UN throttled point is very important. [TS]

00:16:12   Many cloud providers can't accept the files quickly enough so even though you can upload them fast they couldn't accept [TS]

00:16:18   them and so it was going to take you know months to upload my first backup and that was back [TS]

00:16:23   when that was never a problem they were always very fast they can they can basically accept them as quickly as you're [TS]

00:16:28   going to send them [TS]

00:16:28   and their client is a nice job of throttling automatically to make sure there's a mess ending up for you. [TS]

00:16:33   There is Native it is a it's a preference paint with a menu item. [TS]

00:16:38   It runs they're always up to date with MAC releases it runs and Yosemite. [TS]

00:16:42   They also have an i Phone i Pad [TS]

00:16:44   and Android app you can access your backup files from back plays on the go from your ass you can also say you're like [TS]

00:16:51   you're like on a trip and you forget to bring a file with you and it's not like a drug [TS]

00:16:54   or anything you can logon to back ways [TS]

00:16:57   and restore just one file onto your laptop as you're traveling to get access to it. [TS]

00:17:02   Things like that it's a really helpful system really nice [TS]

00:17:04   and all that backup is is just you know to use the word junkie or you're not if you don't have all my backup [TS]

00:17:11   and so anyway I think what the back was going to back Blaze dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

00:17:16   Highly recommended I've used them myself for years now and I definitely recommend you have a cloud backup service [TS]

00:17:22   and you're going to have it's going to have one and it is the best one anyway. [TS]

00:17:25   Then quarterback plays for sponsoring the show once again John you have some real time follow up for us. [TS]

00:17:31   Chat room a couple places a player screenshots of the dropbox Dr Baker. [TS]

00:17:37   OK Then area of Iowa state so it's a thing there you go. [TS]

00:17:42   But the link to Iowa with a document writer's story [TS]

00:17:49   and everyone else take a look out there I'm sure we're not going to think about like what kind of apps though I have an [TS]

00:17:54   i O. S. That would use a docking figures kind of chicken egg because before you have a generic. [TS]

00:18:00   I'm bigger if you keep all your stuff on Dropbox then you're not going to have one ever [TS]

00:18:03   but what apps do you guys use that you would find yourself using a drop I stuck a picture with. [TS]

00:18:13   Well I think what's interesting here is you know before one of the big problems of doing any kind of like productivity [TS]

00:18:20   task and I was device if you're working with documents and stuff. [TS]

00:18:24   One of the problems though is again the files on and off of it and some apps would support the i Cloud documents [TS]

00:18:29   and data thing it was always limited [TS]

00:18:31   and I personally little bit afraid to use it because I was I never really knew where those files were written it was [TS]

00:18:37   kind of weird for me. [TS]

00:18:40   I Cloud Drive not only replaces that [TS]

00:18:42   but I think just having this as a thing right now you know it's going to take us a while to realize that we can do this [TS]

00:18:49   you can pay developers a while to realize that they can do something with this. [TS]

00:18:52   So I think this is the kind of thing that in six months or a year or two years we might look back on this [TS]

00:18:57   and say oh my god this this made such a big difference. [TS]

00:19:00   But right now it's hard to see it because nothing's really using it yet. [TS]

00:19:04   Yeah I can think of one place I would have liked to use it one to another one doing e-book previews I would've loved to [TS]

00:19:11   not have to use i Tunes and in the past what I could do is take the versions of the books [TS]

00:19:15   and throw them in my Dropbox [TS]

00:19:17   and then I would go to the dropbox climb to dedicate a Dropbox app in the days before Iowa save [TS]

00:19:22   and find you know whatever file I want open and I would tap on it and it would download in the drop box out [TS]

00:19:29   and then it would show me little things a sari drop the drop a tab doesn't know how to display this thing [TS]

00:19:33   but then there was a little button that said open in these applications which understand it [TS]

00:19:37   and the most recent version of the dropbox app did not understand how to do that with with all the formats that I was [TS]

00:19:44   using and it would just not offer to open it in the Kindle appart Open ID [TS]

00:19:47   and the i Books app so if I had a Dropbox document picker I could have gone to the i Books at the use of Dropbox I can [TS]

00:19:55   pick your simming the docking figures or support all they already know they are and just put that way and same thing. [TS]

00:20:00   The Kindle app so do it for me [TS]

00:20:02   but that's one scenario I can think of anything so I don't have to use i Tunes to transfer files. All right. [TS]

00:20:09   So to continue some follow up do you want to tell us John about some person a person Bluetooth based mesh networks that [TS]

00:20:17   are particularly popular [TS]

00:20:18   or perhaps were particularly popular in Hong Kong a couple shows ago we were talking about Twitter [TS]

00:20:24   and decentralized messaging services not controlled by any one company like Twitter or whatever you know protocols. [TS]

00:20:32   Instead of protocols like you know I'm a pop and S.M.T.P. [TS]

00:20:36   Instead of proprietary services like Twitter with the eyes and a lot of guns and all that stuff [TS]

00:20:43   and I don't remember if we brought this up on the show so I threw in a vault I'm sorry if this is a repeat. [TS]

00:20:48   But what I was thinking of when we were having a discussion and I might not have remembered to interject was [TS]

00:20:54   when they're having those protests in Hong Kong the people in the crowd were using an application for messaging that [TS]

00:21:01   use Bluetooth person to person. [TS]

00:21:04   So there was no connection to a centralized server of the Internet I think they might have actually even had internet [TS]

00:21:09   access but to each individual phone [TS]

00:21:10   and bluetooth the message that we passed from phone to phone to phone phone to spread to all the people in the crowd in [TS]

00:21:16   this application is an application it's used for. [TS]

00:21:20   Like if you go somewhere where there's no wife I say go like you go camping or something and so you [TS]

00:21:25   and your friends can all you know send messages to each other on your information phones even though none of us access [TS]

00:21:30   or saw access and your own near each other. [TS]

00:21:32   Yeah well you know you're in you're a bunch of tents set up somewhere you know I mean I think that's what it's for [TS]

00:21:38   but anyway regardless they were using this technology to basically communicate with each other despite the you know the [TS]

00:21:43   the government or whatever the centralized authorities making other forms of communication impossible. [TS]

00:21:48   So I think in a scenario it's kind of weird but this is like a protest or whatever [TS]

00:21:53   but the dystopian future dystopian so far future is everybody uses Twitter and Twitter is controlled by want to come. [TS]

00:22:00   Any and the utopian future is. [TS]

00:22:04   Everybody uses peer to peer mesh networks that can't be controlled by any single government or entity [TS]

00:22:09   and like there's nothing you can do to break communication in the entire world because we're all just connected to each [TS]

00:22:15   other by proximity and mesh network and you could you could block out little portions here and there [TS]

00:22:20   but eventually the mesh will cover everything so I think we're not in either one of the scenarios we're between the [TS]

00:22:25   dystopian the utopia but hopefully we'll push things the right direction somehow right [TS]

00:22:31   and a couple shows ago we were also talking about pent i Phones which by the way did that's magically go away. [TS]

00:22:37   I think it's still there but I don't think there's any new news you know. [TS]

00:22:40   Yeah well anyway Jared Bill mayor probably buttering that's are you Jared anyway he said that with regard to Apple [TS]

00:22:49   taking bent i Phones We were talking about how we thought it was interesting that [TS]

00:22:54   or somebody written in that it was interesting that a genius [TS]

00:22:57   or whoever it was took notes on the fact what that person was doing with their i Phone bench [TS]

00:23:01   or something on those lines [TS]

00:23:02   when he was scared says Apple taking Ben i Phones Apple always does quote engineering captures quote for specific [TS]

00:23:09   issues on new products for a short time. [TS]

00:23:12   So that is just a little They are also occurred to me what happened at the Twitter thing today was that the thing was [TS]

00:23:20   in their thing today. They're yeah they are. [TS]

00:23:23   They had a developer conference today [TS]

00:23:25   and honestly I don't I have not a vain attention to what they announce if they announce something called the digits. [TS]

00:23:30   It's like basically like S.M.S. [TS]

00:23:33   Two factor as a service that anybody can use some like that but I was out on the details you know and so more the same. [TS]

00:23:42   You know I don't know. I keep meaning to blog about this. [TS]

00:23:44   So I wrote an article the other day in anticipation of this conference because I had posted some kind of crazy things [TS]

00:23:52   saying Twitter is going to start over again with developers and start fresh and reset their image [TS]

00:23:55   and I basically said no they're not. And the gist of my post was that. [TS]

00:24:00   They're not trustworthy to developers and there's been a number of responses. [TS]

00:24:04   Dave Winer notably responded pretty publicly basically saying in short and I hope not but you his argument here [TS]

00:24:13   but in short that you know we can like pick and choose our gatekeepers [TS]

00:24:17   and that it's hard for me to say this kind of stuff without pointing out that I accept the Apple App Store gatekeeper [TS]

00:24:24   and Apple has done such a developers in the past and that [TS]

00:24:27   and that's all true I think the main difference is alignment of interests though. [TS]

00:24:33   Twitter there's a great quote let me say I have it open here is and it's on the verge today. [TS]

00:24:39   There's a comment from somebody at Twitter that said referring to their old A.P.I. [TS]

00:24:44   Before they put in the restrictions with the token limits and everything for clients they said R E P I was so open [TS]

00:24:49   but we allowed people to compete with us [TS]

00:24:52   and that this was this was like their justification for locking it down two years ago with a token limit [TS]

00:24:57   and everything I think that you know there was soap in that we allow people to compete with us. [TS]

00:25:03   That right there says a lot more than that person probably planned to say that explains a lot. [TS]

00:25:10   So what this means is Twitter's A.P.I. [TS]

00:25:14   Made it possible for people to compete with Twitter and they shut it down because they had to their A.P.I. [TS]

00:25:23   Has the potential to make people compete with them. [TS]

00:25:25   It gives people the ability to compete with them it gives people the ability to do things like build a whole following [TS]

00:25:30   graph like when [TS]

00:25:31   when Instagram launched Instagram became a social network primarily by importing people's Twitter friends [TS]

00:25:37   and then building its own side network and then you didn't need Twitter anymore after that [TS]

00:25:42   and then Twitter of course you as this and cut off access to the to the Friend Finder thing for them [TS]

00:25:46   and you know these situations will keep coming up Twitter also had a problem where there were some client I forget the [TS]

00:25:52   name of that but there was there were some company buying a whole bunch of Twitter clients [TS]

00:25:55   and they were going to start their own like Shadow Network next to Twitter and. [TS]

00:26:00   And like you could like you'd be able to post to both of them and integrate the timelines and everything [TS]

00:26:05   and that's that I think was the bigger freak out the Twitter had that was a couple years earlier than Instagram I think. [TS]

00:26:10   So Twitter get freaked out. You know that you could use their A.P.I. [TS]

00:26:14   To steal value from them and devalue them and compete with them. [TS]

00:26:19   If you look at the situation Apple's in with app developers it's a very different situation. [TS]

00:26:23   I mean yes it's possible that you can make an app that compete on one of Apple's apps [TS]

00:26:28   but Apple's primary interests are so in the hardware [TS]

00:26:30   and so if you're if you're a developer making apps the chances that your interests are going to conflict with Apple's [TS]

00:26:37   interests are extremely low. [TS]

00:26:38   There's almost no chance for that to realistically happen in any plausible future scenario at least during lease [TS]

00:26:45   and of future. [TS]

00:26:46   You know maybe on a Syracuse timescale maybe [TS]

00:26:48   but there's a you know in the next like you know ten years like how how long is your software likely to last you know [TS]

00:26:54   five ten years if you if you're lucky. [TS]

00:26:57   So you know in that time like Apple's interest we're going to change dramatically to the point where they're going to [TS]

00:27:01   be at odds with what app developers do on a platform and you know the answer is probably not. [TS]

00:27:06   So I think it's a very different argument to say that oh well Apple has complete control over their platform [TS]

00:27:12   and you buy into that and you're investing in that and therefore your argument is invalid. [TS]

00:27:17   Now I don't think that's a fair counterargument. [TS]

00:27:20   Twitter on the other hand like there are so many ways you can use a Twitter A.P.I. [TS]

00:27:24   In ways that if you say well if this gets big enough this could be a real problem for Twitter [TS]

00:27:28   or we've just stolen a whole bunch of value from Twitter like that is so much more likely given what Twitter is [TS]

00:27:35   and what their A.P.I. Allows access to. [TS]

00:27:38   That's what makes it so untrustworthy is that the chance that your interests will conflict with Twitter is if you are [TS]

00:27:43   successful are very very high. [TS]

00:27:45   I don't think that the structural difference though I think it is the actions of the of the companies involved because [TS]

00:27:52   I mean when I heard that quote about you know the Twitter saying we actually people compete with us. [TS]

00:27:57   I just check my head thinking they don't. There their view of A.P.I. [TS]

00:28:03   Usage is different [TS]

00:28:05   and it has caused them to act in ways that make someone trustworthy because they've proven they don't understand what [TS]

00:28:10   the heck's going on there like the aspects of competition you just talked about are real and they are there. [TS]

00:28:15   But even before Instagram was able to steal value from Twitter by exploiting its you know its relationship graph to [TS]

00:28:23   bootstrap its own photo social network thing. Twitter only became Twitter. [TS]

00:28:29   Or so the story we tell ourselves go in our little circle not only of a part at least partially because people third [TS]

00:28:36   parties made clients that made the service more palatable for people who didn't want to go to their last web page like [TS]

00:28:44   they were not those people who are using Twitter's A.P.I. [TS]

00:28:46   To make client software for all these sorts of platforms and to refine [TS]

00:28:49   and everything like that to for Twitter to view them as people. [TS]

00:28:53   Even when people compete they weren't competing with you they were helping you become the Twitter you are today. [TS]

00:28:58   Without them who knows if you would have become the two you could have still been you know like a tent like a service [TS]

00:29:05   that nobody wants to use because they don't like using your web page [TS]

00:29:08   and your client software is crappy like who cares that you would be worried about saving [TS]

00:29:12   and protecting your value like so to view those people as competition is just weird like that was the whole sort of [TS]

00:29:17   but what we all felt betrayed [TS]

00:29:19   or the Twitter client developers is like they felt like they helped build this service into what it is today [TS]

00:29:24   and into it it was like OK I don't need you anymore thanks bye. [TS]

00:29:27   Whereas Apple for all its weird foibles and everything still seems to be able to keep the eye on the ball [TS]

00:29:32   and say developers are actually an important part of you know they add value to our devices we can solve hardware [TS]

00:29:39   because these people develop [TS]

00:29:40   or is make apps on that of Apple's currently saying hey look at all these apps not being like we even let people make [TS]

00:29:46   apps to compete with our example would never say that because it's like you know all they do is brag about how many [TS]

00:29:51   people make that how many apps on the App Store how much money they give to developers like they know the apps [TS]

00:29:56   and make them without apps their hardware is way less valuable. So. [TS]

00:30:00   I will put it out like crazy [TS]

00:30:01   and you know the old hierarchy of Apple needs of Apple first customers first Apple second and developers third [TS]

00:30:07   and that still annoys developers and Apple still does have a tremendous amount of control over its platform [TS]

00:30:11   but it's as I said it's not structural. [TS]

00:30:13   Twitter and Apple have similar amounts of control this point over their platforms. [TS]

00:30:17   But based on past actions we believe Apple understands to some degree that everyone who makes an app for the App Store [TS]

00:30:24   is increasing the value of Apple's products whereas Twitter seems hell bent on not understanding the people writing [TS]

00:30:31   applications into Twitter A.B.I. [TS]

00:30:33   and All sorts of ways makes Twitter more valuable [TS]

00:30:36   and you're right there's still this possibility you know exploiting it to bootstrap some of the network itself like [TS]

00:30:40   that but things like Twitter clients like the reason you know [TS]

00:30:44   and value networks like no bitch we have a monetization strategy that relies on your not being able to get tweets [TS]

00:30:49   and where you need build insert tweets in your timeline and ball a ball like that. [TS]

00:30:53   Tension is kind of of Twitter's own invention over their inability to figure out a business plan that that benefits [TS]

00:31:00   everybody. [TS]

00:31:00   So I don't trust Twitter particularly [TS]

00:31:03   but it's not because they have a lot of control because I was I control it too is because it just doesn't seem like [TS]

00:31:08   Twitter understands you know their view of the relationship between third parties [TS]

00:31:13   and their service is just different than my view from the outside. Well but I think Twitter's view is very valid. [TS]

00:31:19   Twitter's view you know I totally see why they want to own the client experience you know the changes they made were [TS]

00:31:25   not only to do squash competition from you know stealing from Twitter and Like taking over their network [TS]

00:31:32   and we're replacing their network but was also to take back control of the client experience for most people [TS]

00:31:38   and to never let a third party client get as big as their client again. [TS]

00:31:42   What that allowed them to do then is have the power over their own experience that their product is not an A.P.I. [TS]

00:31:50   It originally kind of was. But now you know for a long time their product has not been the A.P.I. [TS]

00:31:55   It has been the Twitter app but that's their view of the service. [TS]

00:32:00   So our view of the service was you're like email [TS]

00:32:02   but smaller like you are you are you are a protocol you are a message format. [TS]

00:32:08   That's not what they actually were like that's how we viewed on the outside in the same way we would make awesome email [TS]

00:32:12   clients back in the day to work with email and you know clarity calls for a time of Clara's e-mail [TS]

00:32:17   or come out people love you door involved and those are all email clients and we like the client and [TS]

00:32:22   but pretty email was email or Twitter was Twitter but like Twitter's view of itself is not that [TS]

00:32:26   and you don't make money being a company that invents pop or us in the beer or whatever. [TS]

00:32:31   So that was the tension [TS]

00:32:32   but like I still get back to Twitter the service would be nothing would be a footnote in history if it wasn't for all [TS]

00:32:38   of those clients that that added value in Twitter didn't make this point. [TS]

00:32:41   Twitter couldn't make those clients Twitter could only have made one of those clients at most if it is dry to day [TS]

00:32:46   control earlier but there was tons of clients that's what Twitter is what it is today. [TS]

00:32:50   Yes sure but that doesn't matter anymore. [TS]

00:32:52   That's ancient history I mean anybody anybody at Twitter who possibly care about that is probably left by now [TS]

00:32:57   but that's the betrayal [TS]

00:32:58   and that's why we don't trust them anymore like that's why it's not again it's not structural it's not because of the [TS]

00:33:03   control they have it's because what they have done with that control in the past [TS]

00:33:06   and it's a divorce between the way we will way we saw Twitter and the waitresses itself [TS]

00:33:11   and so no change of heart on their part unless they prove that they see their service differently [TS]

00:33:15   and that we're on the same page again [TS]

00:33:17   and we don't see they're So you know they're not on the same page just saying oh we let people compete with us that [TS]

00:33:22   shows that there's still a disconnect. [TS]

00:33:24   We want to think of Twitter as a protocol a service a message format [TS]

00:33:28   or whatever we want to think of Twitter like blogging. No one owns blogging right. [TS]

00:33:32   Just conceptually it's a we know what blogging is conceptually but there's no owner of the technology wise [TS]

00:33:37   but we want to think of Twitter that way too not that way. [TS]

00:33:40   So I think will always be sort of you know standing as opposite sides of the gym during the dance [TS]

00:33:46   and not ever going into the middle and you know I don't see a way out of this to see any overture and less [TS]

00:33:53   and less Twitter changes mind size to become like an infrastructure company. But that's not going to happen. [TS]

00:34:00   Yeah I mean it was was the vcs come in and everything it's like well you know they want their money back somehow. [TS]

00:34:05   All the bases were there and I think we all thought you know when Twitter [TS]

00:34:10   when Twitter came came to you know to its initial rise [TS]

00:34:13   and we were writing all these clients that was during the era of web development where every web app was expected to [TS]

00:34:18   have an A.P.I. Often from the start it was often best wisdom to have an A.P.I. [TS]

00:34:22   First and build your actual app on top of that. Right like the web app was like. [TS]

00:34:27   Like who cares about the Web and it's all about the A.P.I. [TS]

00:34:29   Right this is kind of like this weird time in web development history where everyone just kind of temporarily forgot [TS]

00:34:35   about making money and aggrandize happens a lot but [TS]

00:34:37   but this is an especially bad time there are like you know let's make an A.P.I. [TS]

00:34:41   and See what people mash up with it [TS]

00:34:42   and the reality is that there's a reason why so many new services these days don't have full size [TS]

00:34:51   and almost always don't. [TS]

00:34:52   So these launch with them because that's just a really hard thing as a business case to justify [TS]

00:34:58   and it opens you up to a lot of risks of things like you know what if Instagram had had a fully P.I. [TS]

00:35:03   From the beginning where you can read and write and you could make your Instagram client. [TS]

00:35:07   Then what happens when I want to change the way the client works. [TS]

00:35:09   You know there was that time in the mid two thousand where A.P.R.'s were expected of the cool thing [TS]

00:35:14   but that time is over and it's been over for a while [TS]

00:35:16   and that's never coming back because it's so difficult from business point per perspective from a control perspective [TS]

00:35:22   it's so difficult to actually maintain that. [TS]

00:35:25   So you know we might expect Twitter to to some day go back to that or we might be mad they're not doing that now [TS]

00:35:30   but the reality is it would be a very bad idea for Twitter to ever do that again that was a good move back in the [TS]

00:35:36   reason ever I was doing it back then it's because it's kind of like a wolf in sheep's clothing where if you make [TS]

00:35:41   something look like up a protocol or a piece of plumbing [TS]

00:35:46   or part of the Internet you can get traction among a certain set of people that like you know we like the utopia we [TS]

00:35:54   think no is there you know here we have an existing protocols and we have an old Pericles we have you know as a sage. [TS]

00:36:00   The F.T.P. and N.T.P. All these protocols old and new all kind of mixing together in the studio. [TS]

00:36:05   But now when we make these guys we have the rest format we can turn the Web into a giant A.P.I. [TS]

00:36:10   Machine in order to be liable to be like the Internet but now people can innovate and you know you have the mash ups [TS]

00:36:15   and all that other stuff. [TS]

00:36:16   If you make it look like infrastructure people are attracted to especially thank the people because I'm easily you [TS]

00:36:21   Michael what can I do with this if I had this baby and that maybe I could build this and that [TS]

00:36:24   and I think this is great [TS]

00:36:26   and what you don't realize is that all those companies they have the eyes are like lying in wait [TS]

00:36:31   and just hoping they become massively popular [TS]

00:36:33   and then they go I got how we've got you because this wasn't really a piece of infrastructure really this is a wholly [TS]

00:36:37   owned pride Terry thing we are the only source of it no one else can copy it. [TS]

00:36:41   We have all the data we can you know you know me [TS]

00:36:43   and Twitter basically you know one succeeded in that strategy of looking like infrastructure to people who weren't [TS]

00:36:50   thinking about it to hard [TS]

00:36:52   and then never realize they're not it's too late it's spread like it's a good way to spread things where if you just [TS]

00:36:57   made a website people would know like you know I mean I just asked my space how that worked out of my space to try to [TS]

00:37:03   be a protocol first and then turn the screws in turn to aside [TS]

00:37:05   and then really probably wouldn't work for My Space But anyway it's much harder to get people to come to your site [TS]

00:37:11   and make that like his biggest Facebook right. But every whenever I had A P I's. [TS]

00:37:17   People were mixing them all together and if any of them caught on you could you could lie in wait [TS]

00:37:21   and say like I'm part of the Internet this is not I'm not a single private company [TS]

00:37:26   or a single web site I'm invisible I'm a protocol I'm like after that and then grow to tremendous size like that [TS]

00:37:31   and then change your mind and that's what everybody did [TS]

00:37:34   and I still think a strategy could work like if you made something look like a protocol everyone would forget the fact [TS]

00:37:39   that your private company really control it [TS]

00:37:41   and you can do exactly what triggered it again I think that strategy is not entirely dead because we'll all be fooled [TS]

00:37:46   again by it I mean the same of apps that net right. [TS]

00:37:50   Like a slightly better they're charging up front [TS]

00:37:51   but it was the same situation we would have all done if that's an error becomes trying to say successful women a small [TS]

00:37:57   step up from Twitter but that would have ended up doing the same thing. [TS]

00:38:00   We're also sponsored this week by once again our friends at a glue igloo is an Internet. [TS]

00:38:05   You will actually like good glue Software dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

00:38:11   It was built with easy to use apps like shared calendars Twitter like microblog file sharing task management and more. [TS]

00:38:17   It's everything you need to work better together in one very configurable cloud platform it was responsive design your [TS]

00:38:24   chat already works like a champ on virtually any device I.O.'s [TS]

00:38:27   and ready even support Blackberry it will even work on a new plus sized i Phone six Plus right from the very start. [TS]

00:38:34   You know if you if you're a customer you don't have to do anything new [TS]

00:38:37   but new devices come out they take care before you they support it for you it's great. [TS]

00:38:40   You can review a document you can post a project update you can change admin settings [TS]

00:38:44   or talk about how do you do albums like on directories I vary all from your phone and I or what brand that phone is. [TS]

00:38:50   Plus when you design your igloo any change you make to the look and feel carries across all of these devices. [TS]

00:38:56   There file preview engine is also fully five compatible so when your coworkers upload a proposal [TS]

00:39:01   or a javascript file you can preview it inline add comments upload new versions [TS]

00:39:05   or assign action items all from your phone. [TS]

00:39:08   Recently Gartner released their famed Magic Quadrant for social software in the workplace. [TS]

00:39:12   It will appear for the sixth consecutive year along with tech giants like Microsoft I.B.M. Google V.M. [TS]

00:39:17   Ware sales force a common S A P I still I still think should be pronounced sap. It's that's kind of a shame as A.B. [TS]

00:39:24   and Report the values the size of the vendor which in garden terms mean viability. [TS]

00:39:28   It was praised for the response in this [TS]

00:39:29   and customer experience from Gardner's profile of a glue they said feedback from. [TS]

00:39:34   It was reference customers was consistently positive they praise the product quick deployment configuration [TS]

00:39:39   and customization flexibility with self-service options for non-technical users control over branding [TS]

00:39:43   and information organization and ease of use. Dixon deep breath is not in the sentence I just took a hand. [TS]

00:39:51   They also praised the response of this of igloo as an organization. [TS]

00:39:54   Anyway if your company has a legacy Internet built on top of Share Point or some kind of old portal technology you got. [TS]

00:40:00   Every little Try it was free to use up to ten people [TS]

00:40:03   and then of course very easily price after that really if you have up to ten people you might as well use it free. [TS]

00:40:09   So good a glue Software dot com slash A.T.P. Once again the big blue Software dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

00:40:15   Thank you very much to our friends igloo for sponsoring our show once again their long term friends sponsors of our [TS]

00:40:20   show and excellent. So John I want to quickly ask you what's going on with the review. [TS]

00:40:27   How's the initial feedback did you have to make any big updates or is it basically the status quo as usual. [TS]

00:40:34   That's so last week we still talking about other things you never know what it was like twenty four hours [TS]

00:40:40   or something like that when we when we got to speak about it last. [TS]

00:40:42   Now mostly updates come in the first twenty [TS]

00:40:44   or I think I did one book update every couple of hours every time for a while but it's been quiet since [TS]

00:40:52   and I only put in a couple of one more updates about core storage application which I mean that we talk about the last [TS]

00:41:00   week the type of things that I think you can test when the final bits aren't out until after you publish your view [TS]

00:41:07   and also the type of thing that I personally can't test because I don't have a web for computers. [TS]

00:41:11   Just me here and I had a lawn or harbor map out which is useful [TS]

00:41:14   but that's still like a total of like five computers you know many of which are the same vintage or similar. [TS]

00:41:21   So I can't do the time like we installed as low as an you know five different pewters with you know ten different [TS]

00:41:27   partition configurations each and both internal and external drives and determined you know. [TS]

00:41:31   So I still don't know under what circumstances does a decide to turn your volume into a core storage volume. [TS]

00:41:37   Does it sometimes doesn't do it other times I put a correction in the most recent Gratian I put in was doesn't happen [TS]

00:41:43   all the time it happens under the scenario didn't happen under this scenario [TS]

00:41:48   and other people on Twitter like installing into their machines with different partition arrangements stuff [TS]

00:41:52   and seeing [TS]

00:41:52   when it doesn't doesn't happen so I don't know if I had known that it was that weird like it basically happen every [TS]

00:41:58   and every installation scenario that I. [TS]

00:42:00   Did my test hardware so that's why I thought it was done all the time and I asked Apple about it [TS]

00:42:04   and they were giving explanations of why they were doing it they didn't ever offer the information like oh by the way [TS]

00:42:09   you know we don't actually do that all the time in these scenarios we want so missing information to be clarified based [TS]

00:42:14   on what I'm trying to do is make it so that if someone stumbles across a three or five years now [TS]

00:42:18   or if I try to look something up in their ear five years from now I will see these little corrections in there [TS]

00:42:23   and understand that this is the way I thought things were on a day release or before [TS]

00:42:30   but actually things are more complicated so don't take this is the final word. But on that it's been fine. [TS]

00:42:37   There's been a big difference in feedback over the years between these things used to be that I would do one interviews [TS]

00:42:41   and I would have like twenty or thirty pages of comments attached to them. [TS]

00:42:45   Now not that many comments [TS]

00:42:47   and most of the comments are no longer discussions of the article they're just people complaining about what they do [TS]

00:42:52   or don't like about your sanity which is fine I guess but it's only a change in commenter behavior [TS]

00:42:57   and I just I think you know lower volume of comments maybe because they feel like they have other avenues to talk back [TS]

00:43:02   to me like Twitter or whatever and comments that aren't interested in discussing the article [TS]

00:43:07   but just are interested in hey everybody was taught by somebody how they're working for you I don't like this I do like [TS]

00:43:11   that I had this bug I didn't have that bug. Yeah it's mostly done it's off the front page of our slowly fading away. [TS]

00:43:23   That with the exception of comments is like what is interest if you can if you can say it like it has. [TS]

00:43:28   Interest rates remain high in recent years in the reviews or is that going up [TS]

00:43:32   or down it's going down like it has been going down for a couple years it's still not awful [TS]

00:43:37   but definitely interest is going to I mean you know people just march should not go see says I don't blame them it's [TS]

00:43:42   the bigger platform it's more popular more people are likely to have it and you know so it's doing fine [TS]

00:43:48   and everything but it's like if you were to graph it with the past four [TS]

00:43:50   or five reviews I've read it's a steady downward slope. [TS]

00:43:55   Do you think it's a problem with the fact that it's now released every year and so that is more frequent. [TS]

00:44:00   Or is it a little less of a of a build up to new electorally because they're happening so much more frequently now I [TS]

00:44:05   don't think it's the frequency I think it's just the primacy of the mac in the Apple nerd space is just so much less [TS]

00:44:12   than it used to be like there used to be all there was it was all about the mac [TS]

00:44:15   and then I wes has been just coming on strong and now and it's a kind of a generational like even [TS]

00:44:22   when i O S was just insanely popular [TS]

00:44:24   and long clips that back in terms of every possible number you can imagine early on the people who were interested in [TS]

00:44:31   reading about it over the same people who had come up with Apple as the apple of that company that makes Max [TS]

00:44:36   and I'm super into Macs right and then I us is I think it's interesting too. [TS]

00:44:40   Now there's generations of people who barely even know the mac exists. [TS]

00:44:44   They grew up thinking of Apple as the i Phone company and they're super interested in reading about I was [TS]

00:44:49   and they could care less about the mac I really see a big generational turn over in you know [TS]

00:44:54   and the people who are you know Apple nerds on the web there's a whole generations of Apple nerds on the Web now. [TS]

00:45:00   Maybe you know I don't this is one generation or two whatever who think about those the I was a company [TS]

00:45:05   and that's that's what they're into. [TS]

00:45:07   In the same way that like the mac people replace the Apple two people like people who are like I'm really into Apple. [TS]

00:45:12   It's all of the Apple two [TS]

00:45:12   and it's not you know it's like it's cool to eventually there was a set of people like me who entirely identified Apple [TS]

00:45:18   as the company that makes the MAC and I could care less about the Apple two. [TS]

00:45:21   So that's it's a natural consequence of the different number of these products that they sell. [TS]

00:45:28   Well what the mac is selling more than ever. [TS]

00:45:30   So do you think it's more more of an issue of just like the nerds not caring as much about each Mac. [TS]

00:45:35   Update I saw way more of those devices than Macs like in terms of numbers in terms of revenue in terms of profit like [TS]

00:45:41   every possible metric that I was devices equips Macs easily you know maybe maybe it's just me. [TS]

00:45:48   I've never once read anybody's long I left reviews because I mean part of it is like I'm involved in I was bitter [TS]

00:45:57   process so I already know John what's different but. [TS]

00:46:00   I've never felt the need because it seems like I last change is a kind of more I don't know it. [TS]

00:46:07   They seem very relatively surface level in what you could possibly discuss about them like you could do a lot of the [TS]

00:46:15   internals a lot of the reasoning a lot of the like you know under the hood stuff I don't see why people do that with I [TS]

00:46:21   wouldn't usually use like here's an overview of the features and visuals that have changed. [TS]

00:46:26   Well there's less poking you can do it I was like you can't you can't get a terminal you can [TS]

00:46:30   but you know I mean I get with it without going to more heroic lengths you can get a terminal prompt [TS]

00:46:34   and start screwing around with things [TS]

00:46:35   and moreover if you do jailbreaking get a good internal process going with things that has ZERO to do with most [TS]

00:46:43   people's interaction with the O. S. [TS]

00:46:45   Whereas on the Maccabee open a Terminal A lot of people who use the mac about as part of their experience of using the [TS]

00:46:49   O. S. Like the terminal is not a jailbreak feature like your bit. [TS]

00:46:53   And yes I remember of a back in the days before ten point zero came out [TS]

00:46:57   and all the developer previews that was a hot topic would Apple what Apple shipped the terminal with. [TS]

00:47:05   You know us ten would Apple ship it but have a disabled or hidden [TS]

00:47:09   or you know like that that was something researchers thought about because the old school mac users saying you're not [TS]

00:47:13   going to sell a mac with a command line or whatever. [TS]

00:47:15   Those of us who are your ignorance are like please let them do this. [TS]

00:47:18   Like the whole point is it's most of the UNIX was a mac compliant they ship but we like [TS]

00:47:22   but you know Apple may be just the terminal be a developer download kind of like you know the graph tools are graphics [TS]

00:47:30   tools are now for X. Go to very well you have to go to A.T.C. [TS]

00:47:32   To get them whatever you build the user but they want to advertise [TS]

00:47:34   but it turned out it totally shipped with it they never got rid of it. [TS]

00:47:37   They never hated the utilities folder it's still there today. [TS]

00:47:41   All right so but that's that's just not what I want is like [TS]

00:47:44   and the second aspect is I'm kind of cheating with these reviews I found myself doing it. This is the B.B.C. [TS]

00:47:51   I found myself going to the metal sessions and taking notes and like what the hell am I doing. [TS]

00:47:54   Metal isn't even a mac technology but you start thinking of it as a big point of view. You start thinking about. [TS]

00:48:00   All these things as just part of Apple's platform. Like I could have written that entire swift section this is an I O. [TS]

00:48:06   As her view medal is I was only [TS]

00:48:08   but I'm writing about it as if it's an Apple technology because there's nothing stopping it from appearing on the Mac. [TS]

00:48:12   Except for Apple's willingness to you know point to the G.B. Use that are available on the Mac. [TS]

00:48:16   Which granted are much more numerous and would be much more difficult and much more reason than to put it on i OS [TS]

00:48:21   but like so many technologies apply to both that a larger [TS]

00:48:24   and larger portion of the review could have been you know I could change it to or VO I was eight [TS]

00:48:29   and put a lot of that same stuff in there so I don't know I don't I don't know that well that has to do with traffic [TS]

00:48:35   numbers [TS]

00:48:36   or anything I just I just think the them the mac is less a focus even though so many things that are relevant to the [TS]

00:48:43   rack or a mac are also relevant i O. S. and Vice versa. [TS]

00:48:45   Still I us is where everyone's eyes are it do you think it's because there's less to see on Mac. [TS]

00:48:51   Every year or because no one's paying attention. [TS]

00:48:54   Well that there was time to say I mean like I mean this is the way it looks totally different you would lay person [TS]

00:48:59   could tell a difference I think between Mavericks in Yosemite at least of these are two different voices because they [TS]

00:49:03   just plain look different but I mean this just as much as I mean I was eight [TS]

00:49:09   when you look at it like oh look the guy was somewhat even different [TS]

00:49:13   and unless you know all extensions on people of that there are absolute better in this way or whatever [TS]

00:49:17   but it's really like I was a it was a much more subtle change from seven than Yosemite was for Maverick so I don't [TS]

00:49:23   think that was the problem either. [TS]

00:49:24   Like if anything people should be super bored by I was eight [TS]

00:49:27   and really excited by somebody if just based on like the sort of in your face wow factor of the changes because I was a [TS]

00:49:35   dozen not in your face about almost anything you know to go back marker you had said who writes a really big Iowa state [TS]

00:49:42   review for the show Rene Ritchie did a pretty solid one for I mourn that we should definitely mention in fact I believe [TS]

00:49:49   it was crashing Safari I don't remember if that was on the macaroni or west but the darn thing is a single page [TS]

00:49:55   and it's so darn big that it ended up causing issues for a lot of users. That's how in-depth it was. [TS]

00:50:01   I concur with what you were saying that it's harder to poke it I alas it's harder to get the depth that John does with [TS]

00:50:06   a less ten review but nevertheless his I was the review was huge. Yeah when I look at the I O. [TS]

00:50:13   Us updates I always thank my lucky stars that I'm not doing and I was like maybe not so much an A but I can seven [TS]

00:50:20   and everything because there is so many changes so many things that are different so many screens [TS]

00:50:25   and just all the screen touch have to retake every time there's a new beta. [TS]

00:50:29   Yeah well you know I don't know if it's better [TS]

00:50:32   or worse that you'd be filling your camera with screen shots here that they don't have a good way to screenshot things [TS]

00:50:37   you know it's like crop and you know. [TS]

00:50:38   Anyway I guess is kind of easier in that all your screens are so full screen on Windows and backgrounds [TS]

00:50:43   and especially seventy what the various I.O.'s updates have been like Wow I'm glad I'm not reviewing this because they [TS]

00:50:49   had a ton of new features because it was the young Oh yes and they just added tons of you know like thing. [TS]

00:50:54   So everything changed you know there's not there's very little that to build an abstraction is the way you deal with [TS]

00:50:59   you know the self like when I added multitasking [TS]

00:51:02   and stuff those are those are big changes we expect that in the early versions of our now it seems like it's settling [TS]

00:51:08   down a little bit so now you have teachers like extensions which seem to be non featured at all you just like go I [TS]

00:51:13   don't see anything different like you got away for the app then it will be totally different but just trust me [TS]

00:51:17   but how do you really review that and you've got to talk about it. [TS]

00:51:21   Speculative Leigh maybe it may be that the difference that I'm that I'm perceiving or whether it's real or not. [TS]

00:51:28   Maybe the difference in perceiving is that the I.R.S. Reviews that I've seen all seem to be extremely long. [TS]

00:51:34   I don't want a comprehensive overview of everything. [TS]

00:51:37   OK sounds like just a slide show like a lot of people do that you know get a gallery [TS]

00:51:41   or a slide show here's every screen it's different right. [TS]

00:51:43   I mean an artist is that a slide show like they're asked me if I was going to galleries in marriage you could have a [TS]

00:51:49   gallery feature where you can just take a whole bunch of [TS]

00:51:50   or is having a carousel that you have to flip through them right on the page [TS]

00:51:54   and I said no I'm not going to have any galleries because I'm old [TS]

00:51:56   and the way I do things is I write words on a screen shot. [TS]

00:52:00   And then I write more words and as you know it's like it's interleave like it would never be like [TS]

00:52:05   and here's fifty photos of this new app. [TS]

00:52:07   You know even if I could put a caption every single one that's not this is not how I do or of you [TS]

00:52:11   but this so since I didn't do [TS]

00:52:13   and they did a slide show that showed essentially years of this kind of like a maverick here's what I look like in [TS]

00:52:18   Yosemite Africa. Each one had a caption or not but that gallery was tremendously popular. [TS]

00:52:23   Like a lot of people do want that out of the thing [TS]

00:52:25   and the other thing you talk about I got a reference type thing those in the old days where you'd go to the bookstore [TS]

00:52:30   back when we had bookstores [TS]

00:52:31   and there would be like you know you know all them a guide to Macca was a to learn macro as a twenty one days [TS]

00:52:39   or whatever [TS]

00:52:40   and it would just be this gigantic paperback book that would just go take you through laboriously every single featured [TS]

00:52:45   a time here's how your name a file in the Finder Here's how you move here how you copy a file I just every single [TS]

00:52:50   friggin thing you need to know do you like essentially a manual for the O. S. [TS]

00:52:53   And that's not a review at all that is that is the manual. [TS]

00:52:56   Right and there's a place for that as well but like these days. [TS]

00:53:00   No one's going to write a book like that at least not trying to be out of the time Yosemite's launch [TS]

00:53:04   but probably something like that in bookstores but that's not what people are looking for and back in the day [TS]

00:53:09   when I was on top of it and when the OS was small I could pretty much document every single pixel the change [TS]

00:53:14   and every single new short keyboard shortcut in behavior [TS]

00:53:16   but it's been years since Macko us ten has been small enough for me right now just to begin. [TS]

00:53:22   Once I started to have to pick [TS]

00:53:24   and choose which things that were important that was a big transition America because going from ten o o ten one I [TS]

00:53:30   could try to find every single thing because there was like five things that changed you know except for it. [TS]

00:53:35   But going from you know ten four to ten five forget it like there's no way that that I could fit everything in under [TS]

00:53:44   that is under I still have power though. [TS]

00:53:45   You'll be able to tell and I go out I get e-mails from Nice analogy downstairs when the U.P.S. [TS]

00:53:52   Kicks in it sends me an email and says phonology is running on your best hour [TS]

00:53:55   and then says you know the e-mail says up I'm back in regular power and I. [TS]

00:54:00   When I get that that means either someone plugged into many vacuum cleaners or the same circuit [TS]

00:54:04   and you know a dual power blip or as we just heard here earlier the houses on the street lost power [TS]

00:54:11   and our power flickered for a second so I know our power flickered because like an email about it from my I never get [TS]

00:54:18   that storage device that is tied to logical events and right there that timing was fine editing as observed. [TS]

00:54:28   I was keeping that in but we're also sponsored this week by a friend that Lynda dot com Lynda comes an easy [TS]

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00:56:00   It was a big help to me in learning how to edit the pod cast for example using logic [TS]

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00:56:07   and what are the settings actually mean is very helpful to me. [TS]

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00:56:58   Once again that is a seven day free trial with access to all their courses during those seven days. [TS]

00:57:03   L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. Thanks a lot to learn that a congressman once again. [TS]

00:57:09   All right so let's talk a little bit about Yosemite. [TS]

00:57:13   I don't know why I said it like that but it sounds good in my head. [TS]

00:57:16   What it what it Stephen [TS]

00:57:17   or might say was a US ten Yeah you know a stand that was amazing Stephen who yells at me for retina Padmini did I say [TS]

00:57:23   where the pen Mini I meant retina Padmini said US ten [TS]

00:57:26   and I yelled at him about this me so it was an action into Oh I think it's better I think it's an improvement I think [TS]

00:57:30   we should go with that use Neal as tent. [TS]

00:57:32   Oh I think so too but he's the king of the pedantic people when it comes to these sorts of things. [TS]

00:57:39   So we're going to talk about your Ryan Mack later Hi Stephen. But for now it's about sanity. [TS]

00:57:48   So have you installed it Marco. No I have it I have it on my laptop that I hardly ever use. [TS]

00:57:53   I have not is one of my desktop for reason that will make you angry. I. [TS]

00:58:00   Probably should know what you're alluding to because we're going to replace it. [TS]

00:58:03   Yeah because you seventy kind of apparently looks like crap on non retina screens so I'm trying to never see it on an [TS]

00:58:11   on retina screen. Doesn't look like crap it just doesn't look as nice. [TS]

00:58:16   It's so adorable for you guys who live [TS]

00:58:19   and not you John I should say you Marco who lives in this oh so mighty fine tower high up in the beautiful middle [TS]

00:58:27   beautiful sea. [TS]

00:58:29   Well I will only look at things on my flick of the hair retina screens I don't want to be I don't want my actual [TS]

00:58:36   retinas tarnished by non retina screens. OK I hate towers I have no hair I hate the water are nowhere near the water. [TS]

00:58:43   You know what I mean you know what I mean I have to seriously I have precisely zero retina Macs in my house [TS]

00:58:50   and only a couple of people have them at work. [TS]

00:58:53   Those of us who live in the real world have to look at Yosemite on regular screens and you know what. [TS]

00:58:59   I actually don't think it looks bad. [TS]

00:59:01   I will say however that there are there's so much white It's like white everywhere [TS]

00:59:07   and I kind of miss having a little bit of contrast. [TS]

00:59:11   I do think it looks pretty but gosh especially since I've run multiple screens [TS]

00:59:17   and I typically don't use full screen mode for a lot of stuff. It's just white everywhere. [TS]

00:59:23   Where do you see ready you see all the way like what I don't have heard people say that it [TS]

00:59:27   but I don't that's not the impression that I get I get different impressions of the You either like I guess Liz let's [TS]

00:59:34   contrast but I don't see all the white like where were you seeing this white coming from where it wasn't before. [TS]

00:59:38   Well here's here's a question Casey. [TS]

00:59:40   You are the most recent Windows user among us are you a window Maximizer only for a couple of windows so I always run [TS]

00:59:51   more fusion speaking of Windows. I always run that in a window. [TS]

00:59:54   But taking up an entire screen I find that it behaves better when it's in a window rather than. When it's full screen. [TS]

01:00:01   My text editor of choice for my web site what I'm writing for that which isn't terribly often is Adam judges you well I [TS]

01:00:10   don't care. It works for me. That's the good one. Yes look good by the way I like it. [TS]

01:00:15   But to be fair I'm not a particularly heavy user of a text editor I don't have particularly involved or complex needs. [TS]

01:00:23   So those of you who are like face palming and and like somebody in the chat is saying yuck seriously. [TS]

01:00:30   Yes seriously because you know what. [TS]

01:00:32   It works for me I don't have a lot of complex needs and it works just fine so that I run full screen [TS]

01:00:38   but just about everything else I run in a window. So where is all the way. [TS]

01:00:41   Where are you seeing so much any non-active window which if you have a few of them on the screen maybe they're grainy [TS]

01:00:49   like I'm not a designer. [TS]

01:00:50   They are there they're like they're lighter gray maybe than they used to be [TS]

01:00:53   and there's less contrast between the parts like the window widgets go lighter grey not doesn't Congress as much as [TS]

01:00:59   they and even things like you know the window like the toolbar thing like in Safari [TS]

01:01:03   or whatever is a little bit lighter and less of a gradient [TS]

01:01:05   but I don't find a prickly blinding I still find it pleasing and nice [TS]

01:01:09   and I think it's a nice aesthetic upgrade my one big complaint [TS]

01:01:13   and I talked about it extensively in the review is the whole transparency issue I think you know that the thrust of the [TS]

01:01:21   that's actually there it was like here's what they're doing here is the technology behind it [TS]

01:01:26   and you know here is how it manifests in the O S and then and then the question of why why are you doing this. [TS]

01:01:32   What's the point. What I you've done this thing. I see how you're doing and I see the different ways of using it. [TS]

01:01:38   What are you trying to say where you get to what and this transparency. [TS]

01:01:42   What is that behind the menu bar that I desperately need to see. [TS]

01:01:46   Do it you know I don't really see details that I need to see hints of the color of [TS]

01:01:50   and stop acting like what is the helping you all you all you're doing is like potentially impairing readability [TS]

01:01:56   potentially making things ugly and exchange. [TS]

01:02:00   Our dot dot dot and so I think I asked Apple this and I pulled out his own quotes from W.C. [TS]

01:02:08   Which is public and everything. [TS]

01:02:09   Here's what they said in exchange for you know the temperature [TS]

01:02:12   and mood of your desktop background leaking through into the things and by the way this is a gust on the talk show [TS]

01:02:17   and you are confused about it I tried to clarify the matter of you but maybe not enough sentences about it. [TS]

01:02:24   So the two kinds of blending [TS]

01:02:25   and vibrancy this transparency they wanted in window blending where you're scrolling up something behind the toolbar [TS]

01:02:30   and whatever it is you're scrolling up behind it to a bar kind of like shows through the toolbar little bit right [TS]

01:02:35   and the second one the weirder one is Africa Open It's called it [TS]

01:02:40   and the other kind of the other hand transparency is where it's composite [TS]

01:02:44   and with the other things that are on the screen so like the sidebars have that kind of transparency where if you have [TS]

01:02:50   something with a sidebar [TS]

01:02:52   and you wave something around behind it like another window you can kind of vaguely see the thing you're waving around [TS]

01:02:56   behind it through the transparent if you like control drag [TS]

01:02:59   or something you know bring to the you know only the window in the front has this transparent effect on it so you have [TS]

01:03:04   to sort of drag window behind something and drag the window in front back [TS]

01:03:07   and forth in front of something you can see that's going on right for that transparency mower you can see the stuff [TS]

01:03:12   behind the window. Apple also takes a touch of your desktop pattern and also mixes it into that right. [TS]

01:03:20   And it's subtle so that people don't even see it if you don't point it out [TS]

01:03:24   but if you just take like a transparent I have little application just as a you know transfer of light [TS]

01:03:31   and dark transparent windows I can strike anywhere to take anything with a side bar take a huge white text that window [TS]

01:03:37   put it behind [TS]

01:03:38   and put the transfer window over you like art the only thing is behind its windows in totally empty one hundred percent [TS]

01:03:42   white thing right and you put it over it [TS]

01:03:44   and if you have like a very intense color desktop background like one of Apple things were grass [TS]

01:03:50   or something everything is all green. [TS]

01:03:52   You'll notice that your side bars tend to be green and you like why the hell is my sidebar ten degree [TS]

01:03:56   and the only thing behind the side bar is one hundred percent white opaque window. [TS]

01:04:00   Where is the green coming out of the answer is is coming from your desktop background did you change your desktop [TS]

01:04:04   background or something it's all red. Suddenly your side bar will be tense with red. [TS]

01:04:07   Now when you have something other than a complete white behind it you to miss this. [TS]

01:04:12   If you take like a little hint of brown because you're just kind of brownish [TS]

01:04:16   and you mix it with whatever is behind it like a picture that's behind it you'll never see that hint of brown [TS]

01:04:20   but if you just have white behind it you'll see the center of this other color [TS]

01:04:23   and this does you know take the temperature and mood or whatever of your desktop and put it into your windows [TS]

01:04:29   but why I have a desktop out and I like it work which is like my son standing in a bunch of pumpkins. [TS]

01:04:35   So it's a lot of green a lot of a lot of orange for the pumpkins and his blue jacket that he's wearing. [TS]

01:04:40   And now all of my side bars are infected with the orange you know a rusty tinge I love that picture. [TS]

01:04:48   I did not like the orange tinge on all of my menus [TS]

01:04:52   and sidebar So I'm faced with a choice change my desktop pattern picture which is now leaking into all my windows [TS]

01:04:58   or turn on transparency and you know it's kind of like working as designed. [TS]

01:05:03   It is it is changing the mood of my desktop but not for the better and my opinion. [TS]

01:05:09   Yeah I mean that's it it's so weird to me because I look at this and I genuinely think wow this really is pretty [TS]

01:05:17   and I think to myself you know I like the look of it [TS]

01:05:21   and then two seconds later I look at maybe the other screen because I'm a two screen kind of guy and I'm [TS]

01:05:27   and that's where all the non-active windows are [TS]

01:05:29   and yes maybe it's gray it's white whatever doesn't matter the point is there's no contrast [TS]

01:05:34   and just it's like a wall of very very very very light gray and that I don't care for [TS]

01:05:39   but generally speaking I do like the look of it it does seem more modern. It seems nice. [TS]

01:05:47   It's a little creepy going over the windows in seeing what is the Metro and hair and glasses. [TS]

01:05:54   That's what I'm thinking why do I know this and you know I don't know. [TS]

01:05:57   So anyway I look at the arrow and I'm like Oh look that's. Don't want to wait that's been that way for a while. [TS]

01:06:04   So they all kind of blend together a little better now [TS]

01:06:06   but all in all I like the I like the work even though it's weird I like a lot of the new features like the estimates [TS]

01:06:13   relay that I was talking about that's really awesome. But I mean you know it's new it's cool. I enjoy it. [TS]

01:06:20   Sums up I'm a little worried like looking at this you know sometimes [TS]

01:06:25   when you introduce a new design it takes people allowed it to really like adjust to it because it's like it's so [TS]

01:06:31   shockingly different from the last one like I was seven when that was unveiled it's like whoa this is so different. [TS]

01:06:37   But eventually people like this is really good I think heavy use of translucency in desktop interfaces with overlapping [TS]

01:06:45   windows is questionable it's always unquestionable is questionable in Windows when Windows Vista did it [TS]

01:06:50   but a decade ago now that's kind of sad actually but anyway we are so old looking at this [TS]

01:06:59   and it's I think it's kind of a near like is this really good idea and like I don't think anyone looking at this [TS]

01:07:04   and saying this looks amazing everything about this is such a good idea I think it's a lot more measures like well some [TS]

01:07:11   of this looks good some of this is kind I don't know what they're doing and I guess maybe we'll get used to it. [TS]

01:07:16   Like is anybody really enthusiastic about the design. I haven't heard it. [TS]

01:07:19   I have this to say for like if you if you look at the screenshots if you scroll to remember view is nine times as I [TS]

01:07:25   have just you know scrolling through looking at things like that and the screen shots [TS]

01:07:30   and the Yosemite view I think are the most visually interesting of any review because like I mean you know all the [TS]

01:07:37   other reviews toolbars look like two hours away from a never change an interview of course I'm explicitly taking [TS]

01:07:42   pictures of the window with different things behind it with different things growing up [TS]

01:07:46   and they look amazing to me like as sort of like interesting works of art you know like I love [TS]

01:07:52   when I scroll is your I love the crazy Rainbow Colors truth is through these things like It looks it's pretty to me [TS]

01:07:58   like you know I was I me. [TS]

01:08:01   I'm emphasizing on picking the most extreme scenarios to show you what your windows might look like [TS]

01:08:05   and partially I'm doing it to show how bad it is like for example in the Safari screenshot way show the different [TS]

01:08:09   rainbow colored windows like this is all the same window I'm just changing tabs look crazily different the window looks [TS]

01:08:14   but if you just look at an isolationist pieces of art or even like the docks [TS]

01:08:17   and different backgrounds they all look really nice and interesting like so I can. [TS]

01:08:21   There was the other reasoning like we're doing this because we want to let you control the mood of your west by [TS]

01:08:25   changing the picture [TS]

01:08:26   and also we're doing this so that things look pretty like that same reasoning to anything like fashion like we wanted [TS]

01:08:31   to look pretty I think it does look pretty and a lot of scenarios [TS]

01:08:34   and the thing is I think we just went a little bit over the line I think [TS]

01:08:39   but the stand there if you like this habit they have of trying to do something going too far [TS]

01:08:45   and then having to back it off they did in Iowa seven with a super thin fonts and backed off before release [TS]

01:08:50   and you know I had to they back up any stuff [TS]

01:08:52   and I was eight maybe a little bit more I don't know I don't know the details but an honest [TS]

01:08:56   and they've done it like crazy in ten point zero in the previews they had a super translucent inactive title bar [TS]

01:09:01   and all windows and they backed that off because it was a bad idea. [TS]

01:09:03   They had all sorts of other kinds of pinstripes [TS]

01:09:05   and translucency that were just way too strong that they had to back off later. [TS]

01:09:10   Even the translucent menu bar which I railed against and thought was ridiculous. [TS]

01:09:14   They backed off and added in a checkbox for right so I mean maybe this is just the way you go you know go too far [TS]

01:09:20   and then take it back and instead of being too timid. [TS]

01:09:22   But I think they've essentially going to begin I think they only want a little bit too far. [TS]

01:09:26   Like I like the translucent dock I think that is a perfect use of hey make it pretty and have crazy cause behind it [TS]

01:09:31   but you can still see your icons because it's pretty chunky like huge icons. [TS]

01:09:36   Maybe when you get smaller gets worse they could've had the opacity increases they got smart they want to be clever [TS]

01:09:41   but I think I'm fine with that. [TS]

01:09:43   The translucent title menu bar I really don't like I would have wished they had a check mark there [TS]

01:09:47   but it's not the end of the world [TS]

01:09:49   but the sidebars over kill me because I like using Outlook all day at work I don't want to see this muddy dingy side [TS]

01:09:57   bar where some text is doing a vibrancy. [TS]

01:10:00   And in some taxes and [TS]

01:10:01   when you're selecting the good boldness just like the people who made a look never designed their app with that in mind [TS]

01:10:06   then all of a sudden they find themselves running on your family [TS]

01:10:08   and their entire cyber are just totally screwed over and looking ridiculous and I look at it every day [TS]

01:10:13   and it's like a scene that's a lower contrast now than it used to be. [TS]

01:10:16   It's muddier than it used to be [TS]

01:10:18   and I'm faced with a lot of decision about changing a desktop picture I like because it's infecting my windows so [TS]

01:10:23   they're so close like there was just one checkbox and say no trends in menu bar none close inside bars. [TS]

01:10:28   Everything else about the system I think is great I think the buttons look way of better. [TS]

01:10:32   I even like a little skinny progress bar as I think it looks clean [TS]

01:10:35   and crisp I like the window which is even though I could move in little things with my eyeglasses because of chromatic [TS]

01:10:40   aberration. Well you see there they were the thing. [TS]

01:10:43   Steven hacker posted a pretty good photo I think it was him that it actually like the X. [TS]

01:10:48   Is actually off center in the in the bottle. [TS]

01:10:51   That's just some pixel some pixel rendering for that it's not actually off center. [TS]

01:10:54   No I think it actually is I think it's a hand takes a half point also on retina screen section one pixel off on someone [TS]

01:11:03   sent in a screen shot of the actual pixels like from Pixie. [TS]

01:11:05   You're right and it was centered but they do some pixel if you look at the picture elements it gets often [TS]

01:11:12   but I read a chromatograph variation with eyeglasses trumps all of that I can move I can move that circle so the axis [TS]

01:11:17   Presley poking out of the side of it you can just turn your convergence knob in your head and fix it. [TS]

01:11:22   Now it's not that works. [TS]

01:11:24   Lighting light enters the lens as they enter the pupil and all that stuff [TS]

01:11:28   and anyway that's all separate issue I almost put that in their view but I thought it would have been a distraction [TS]

01:11:32   but I have been tweeting about it. [TS]

01:11:33   People don't know what we're talking about window widgets and Mavericks are solid primary colors red yellow [TS]

01:11:40   and green and different colors bend different amounts when they go through lenses [TS]

01:11:46   and the the little glimpse inside the circles are completely black So if you have glasses powerful glasses [TS]

01:11:52   and you turn your head so that the red light comes in a different angle the red green and the yellow widgets will move. [TS]

01:12:00   You've put the black will not move as much. [TS]

01:12:02   So what it looks like to you what it looks like it looks like the exits inside the red circle. Look for that X. [TS]

01:12:06   Is moving to the side and so now the axis touching left edge of the circle. Now the next step in the right is now the X. [TS]

01:12:11   Touching the top of the circle like you want the X. [TS]

01:12:13   To be centered [TS]

01:12:14   but as you move your head the extremes to move around what's really happening is that the circles move around the axis [TS]

01:12:18   kind of things that will be the way that will bring to the Wikipedia article on chromatic aberration this is just how [TS]

01:12:24   lenses and light work. [TS]

01:12:25   This is an effect that is emphasized by the fact that is just plain flat red instead of being like the little jewel [TS]

01:12:31   like specular highlighted reddish thing where it is much less visible. [TS]

01:12:36   So a lot and even if you don't have glasses Mark I was talking about is if you just look at the pixels. [TS]

01:12:42   I know for some pixel rendering it's going to be off by at least a partial some pixel [TS]

01:12:46   and Margo seem to think that it's all saw by one hairline half a point pixel on retina which I'm not sure about [TS]

01:12:53   but it wouldn't surprise me if they just didn't have the right never fickle so anyway. [TS]

01:12:58   I don't fault the design for that I think the design looks great [TS]

01:13:01   and people with glasses all the colors are shifting I mean everyone glasses knows we used to look at C.R.T.'s you could [TS]

01:13:07   do converge the edges of the screen [TS]

01:13:09   and see like a red line on ledge of the screen the blue line the other edge like a sister my glasses work I would I [TS]

01:13:14   would not design a no S. [TS]

01:13:15   Around avoiding that there's no avoiding it a white square wall will demonstrate Miss convergence if you cut your head [TS]

01:13:22   in a powerful enough glasses so we glassware is just deal with it and everyone else you know. [TS]

01:13:28   I think that's fine I guess that's why I didn't buy it in their view it was I knew about it from a long time ago [TS]

01:13:33   but I'm like this like it's kind of like I don't want to make another bend to good type thing like Yosemite comes with [TS]

01:13:37   a feature that causes window widgets to leave their circles it's like it's just guys chill. [TS]

01:13:43   It could be a really advanced parallax feature [TS]

01:13:45   and it's not parallax I thought until I don't I don't need any extra elements that are moving in relation to each other [TS]

01:13:52   so going back a minute before I move on Dillon back a minute to the blur being potentially annoying [TS]

01:13:58   or being a downside. Certain designs. [TS]

01:14:01   If you look at the design of Windows Phone seven [TS]

01:14:05   and the kind of Metro design that brought in it has a lot of downside [TS]

01:14:08   and just like the the design language it creates has certain limitations with things like showing complex navigation [TS]

01:14:16   and you know showing things being tappable versus not [TS]

01:14:19   and things like that that there are certain challenges that that entire design language an entire design style just has [TS]

01:14:27   certain built in shortcomings that like it is not possible to design X. Well in that style. [TS]

01:14:34   Every design style has things like this do you think the Iowa seven like aesthetic [TS]

01:14:40   and the way it has been kind of half taken for you or somebody do you think that requires the blur. [TS]

01:14:49   It's a language you know to to look right or to be harmonious with the minium and everything else around it. [TS]

01:14:57   Do you think it requires that or do you think the blur is like just a cost that we have [TS]

01:15:05   when building certain kinds of interfaces with this new style that we're going to have to live with. [TS]

01:15:09   Or do you think they could have done something else there that wouldn't just totally look crappy that you could've done [TS]

01:15:15   the family resemblance by using that blur in the places that were already translucent so use it on the dock obviously [TS]

01:15:21   use it on little overlays the come when you change the screen brightness or volume right. [TS]

01:15:25   Is it on like you know floating palettes or like you know the many pulled out menus [TS]

01:15:30   and stuff like that effect which is not just a blurry it's a blur. [TS]

01:15:33   Plus you know pulling forward of certain colors an increasing saturation in certain areas like that is that statically [TS]

01:15:39   pleasing effect that adds interest without taking away you know readability because I thought one of the things that we [TS]

01:15:44   want to show what's behind it [TS]

01:15:46   but we don't want what's behind it interferes so we have this crazy effect all over Iowa seven for transient things you [TS]

01:15:51   could be on you know Yosemite for transient things as well where you get into trouble is [TS]

01:15:56   when you start making it part of permanent your interface almost like the sidebars into a box. [TS]

01:16:00   The two bars I can see what they're doing there. [TS]

01:16:03   Because if you just made it to a bar like opaquely as I said they're completely opaque it still looks pretty handsome [TS]

01:16:09   like it's not it's a nice design but it's also kind of plain and the in window blending as annoying as it can be [TS]

01:16:15   and as distracting as it can be and sometimes as ugly as it can be also sometimes adds interest [TS]

01:16:19   and has less of a chance of impairing readability because not a lot of words [TS]

01:16:23   and toolbars like it's a bunch of big fat buttons the buttons are still opaque. [TS]

01:16:26   You're not really hurting readability the sidebars are just a bridge too far because they're filled with text. [TS]

01:16:31   You are hurting readability [TS]

01:16:32   and it's such a huge part of the application like a new Safari window the toolbar is one hundred percent great [TS]

01:16:38   but you haven't scrolled anything up behind to get [TS]

01:16:39   or any web page scroll to the top like there's nothing behind to get it just you have a chance for it to be a hundred [TS]

01:16:44   percent gray but the sidebar outlook is forever infected by my desktop pattern [TS]

01:16:47   and possibly even worse infected if there's nothing behind it except for the desktop [TS]

01:16:51   or some other crazy window behind it so I think you could have gotten the family resemblance without going as far as [TS]

01:16:59   they did but I think what more were they were going for is how do we make this interesting. [TS]

01:17:05   And someone said hey look at this I can mix colors into the parts of the U.I. [TS]

01:17:08   and It is kind of very like like the Arab glass if you talk about which is like kind of like what I was ten that I [TS]

01:17:14   forget was that was in ten point zero or D P three or D. Before something. [TS]

01:17:17   Well I guess there are any window that was inactive its title bar was kind of Aero Glass They didn't have the didn't [TS]

01:17:24   have the ability to blur back them because they were taken in too slow [TS]

01:17:27   but it is made it super transparent like it really looks like frosted glass like ten percent capacity right. [TS]

01:17:33   But you know you're somebody doesn't so it doesn't make every single title translucent you can see what's behind it. [TS]

01:17:38   It makes the title bars one hundred percent opaque until something scrolls up behind it if you happen to do in window [TS]

01:17:43   blending in. [TS]

01:17:44   And developers can choose to do that [TS]

01:17:45   or not it's not like Aero Glass hour glass was a bridge too far I hate seeing people's windows machines that have air [TS]

01:17:51   glass because they just look like a damn mess. It's like it's just too much. [TS]

01:17:55   Side bars are also too much but not everyone has a side bar and. [TS]

01:18:00   It's it's not like they took the entire West and said everything is see through. [TS]

01:18:05   They just made maybe one or two too many things. Show what's behind them. [TS]

01:18:10   But always see I like the transparency in principle [TS]

01:18:15   but I agree with you I think it's been turned up too high if you will. [TS]

01:18:19   And and it needs to be backed off a bit and it's not even it's not even up to high. [TS]

01:18:24   It's like it was I think it's the right amount it's just like like I said their view if you're developing an [TS]

01:18:29   application it's actually ties into the extension section Cleaver not like the old dead world of extensions is like I [TS]

01:18:35   write a great app and then someone comes along and jumps into my memory image of my process [TS]

01:18:40   and start screwing with it like I wrote an app I did bug did I tested it. [TS]

01:18:45   I'm sure it works correctly and then you're going to jump into my code and put a jump instruction there [TS]

01:18:50   and jump off from some other section of code [TS]

01:18:51   and jump back there are a few changes state of something in my program I can't defend against that how can I debug [TS]

01:18:56   something when I don't know [TS]

01:18:57   when someone is modifying my code while it's running like I have no idea who these people are what their software does [TS]

01:19:02   what it's doing to my application it's unsupportable [TS]

01:19:05   and that's why people hate extensions that our memory never patching is then screw you know because a software [TS]

01:19:10   developer is like the worst thing in the world like look to bug my own program with code that I wrote is hard enough on [TS]

01:19:15   top of the bug in the O. S. [TS]

01:19:16   Libraries there is like that [TS]

01:19:17   but now you telling me that while my perfectly debugged nice program is running some other program that someone who I [TS]

01:19:22   never met is going to jump into my program and change how it behaves. [TS]

01:19:26   That's crazy it's unsupportable right well if you're a designer and you say I'm going to design an application [TS]

01:19:32   and it's going to look like this and I'm going to make sure everything is nice [TS]

01:19:35   and I make sure all the Texas readable and all the interactions are nice or whatever [TS]

01:19:38   and then I have no control over what the background of my sidebar is that it's up to whatever is behind that window [TS]

01:19:46   and whatever the person's desktop background as I was relying on the system to keep my text legible and not look ugly. [TS]

01:19:52   That's not as untenable as memory patching stench because of a crash or app [TS]

01:19:57   but from a design perspective it's almost untenable. [TS]

01:20:00   Like I can't you know if you don't even give me the option to make that completely opaque I feel like it is can you the [TS]

01:20:05   sidebar anymore I just have to you know use a different U.R.L. [TS]

01:20:09   and Because I did not want I can't control what you're going to put in my window how much was the design it [TS]

01:20:13   when I can control that. Anything else on your family. [TS]

01:20:17   Tons more news I'm even offered today if I want to very quickly talk about Apple Pay [TS]

01:20:22   and complain that I haven't had a chance to use a gap [TS]

01:20:25   and that was most of the reason for bringing it up the other part of this I want to bring up whatever part of the [TS]

01:20:29   reason I want to bring it up is it struck me just a few minutes ago. [TS]

01:20:33   It seems to me a little odd that neither target [TS]

01:20:35   nor Home Depot who arguably need Apple pay the most since they seem to be leaking like a sieve [TS]

01:20:41   when it comes to credit card numbers. Neither of them are supported right now which is a bummer. [TS]

01:20:45   Well there's there's a pretty big downside to this for them [TS]

01:20:49   and that is that the way they used to run credit cards they could automatically track you [TS]

01:20:53   and everything you bought identified by your credit card number and the name that was read to the readers [TS]

01:20:58   and so they were I don't know that they did this but they probably did. [TS]

01:21:03   They had the ability to make money off of off of that and you know Mark it to you in some way [TS]

01:21:10   or at least track what you were doing [TS]

01:21:12   and sell that data to somebody so like Apple to actually removes a revenue stream from these people [TS]

01:21:17   and so I can totally see why certain vendors are not going to be interested in doing this [TS]

01:21:23   and you know eventually they'll be pressured into doing it anyway. [TS]

01:21:25   But I can see why they would want to be launch partners at least [TS]

01:21:28   and would want to do it sooner than they have to because they depend on being creepy as part of their business model [TS]

01:21:34   and Apple is taking away one way that they can be creative. [TS]

01:21:37   Well yes [TS]

01:21:38   but they are to have in the case of target anyway they have alternate ways of being creepy which is their shoot it's [TS]

01:21:44   like a shopping cart app I forget the name of it now and it's going to drive me nuts [TS]

01:21:47   but basically there's an app that you can get and you can scan bar codes while you're standing in the store [TS]

01:21:57   and it will selectively issue you. Coupons and so then when you go to check out it puts up a Q.R. [TS]

01:22:05   Code card we'll thank you Friday pants in the chat. Interesting name by the way. It will show it will show a Q.R. [TS]

01:22:12   Code that they scan and in on a cart wheel app and then that'll give you money off [TS]

01:22:17   and granted it's nice for the consumer because you get a little bit of a discount [TS]

01:22:20   but I am quite confident they're doing exactly what you describe which is check tracking that. [TS]

01:22:26   OK Aaron and I went in and we looked at this thing and it didn't have a discount we looked at this thing [TS]

01:22:31   and it didn't have a discount but we looked at that thing and it did have a discount [TS]

01:22:34   and you know piecing that all together [TS]

01:22:37   and wasn't a target that ended up telling somebody else Dad that his daughter was pregnant. Yeah there is that story. [TS]

01:22:45   Yeah they sent the house like diaper coupons or something like that because the daughter had gone to Target [TS]

01:22:51   and bought like pregnancy tests or something along those lines I forget exactly what the details were. [TS]

01:22:56   So you make a very good point which actually I hadn't considered. [TS]

01:22:59   But nevertheless I'm just bombed that I'm looking at the list of people that are accepting Apple Pay [TS]

01:23:08   and I Cajun only go to McDonald's I actually happen to really like their breakfasts. [TS]

01:23:14   I more often go to Pinera bread but haven't been back since Monday. We already spent all of our money. [TS]

01:23:20   I know what I'm saying I haven't been there in a couple of weeks. Bonaire and today that's really rough. [TS]

01:23:27   It's terrible we spent all of our money a Babies R Us a week [TS]

01:23:30   or so we can only be two weeks ago I was actually at a Walgreens just a few days back [TS]

01:23:35   but it was like Sunday so man this terrible I haven't used to get I don't know what to do. [TS]

01:23:41   I apparently have to go buy some stuff I don't need. I seem you haven't used a marker. [TS]

01:23:45   I used it once at Whole Foods yesterday or something. Oh and how they DON'T TELL ME ABOUT IT WAS GREAT. [TS]

01:23:51   What I was really incredibly impressed by was how insanely fast it was like so ever since you can touch ID on a regular [TS]

01:23:59   basis on my phone. [TS]

01:24:00   On my my typical thing is I pull the phone out of my pocket [TS]

01:24:04   and as I'm pulling out of my pocket my thumb is already on the home button [TS]

01:24:07   and has already tapped it so it is unlocking as I'm listing it up to the time I read it up to my face level [TS]

01:24:13   or whatever level I'm using that it is almost always unlocking by that [TS]

01:24:17   or has already unlocked by them so I get to this instinctively I raise it up [TS]

01:24:21   and I saw on screen my credit card for a split second I saw the Touch ID thing fill in the fingerprint for like [TS]

01:24:29   literally half a second and it was done. I'm like well but it was so fast I blew me away. [TS]

01:24:37   I still have the sign No it was it was just over a hundred dollars. [TS]

01:24:40   Maybe that's why I did not the size that was like a little bit like like an animal you know but. [TS]

01:24:46   But then when I went to I went to another store later on that day to get some other stuff and. [TS]

01:24:51   And of course I do use a regular machine [TS]

01:24:53   and it felt so archaic even today I've been doing is like every day of my life. [TS]

01:25:00   Entire adult life and and I've never thought this is really a problem [TS]

01:25:04   and now all of a sudden everything else feels old and broken. Why did you have to sign. [TS]

01:25:09   I think if you live remember hours like there's probably still a threshold [TS]

01:25:12   but you can get out of a whole foods without spending one hundred dollars and I know the story link. [TS]

01:25:19   I'm guessing it's just like other signature rules are there's probably some threshold that you know possibly depends on [TS]

01:25:24   the store or the type of merchant account they have or something. But we will see. [TS]

01:25:29   I don't expect ever to be able to rebel. [TS]

01:25:31   That is theoretically an uprising of the whole thing comes out spend the hundred dollars [TS]

01:25:36   and possible you know it's it's funny you bring up getting at Whole Foods for a hundred dollars a really quick story. [TS]

01:25:41   Couple years ago I typically bring my lunch to work [TS]

01:25:44   and I just eat at my desk in a couple years ago for whatever reason I had forgotten it [TS]

01:25:48   or whatever so I decide you know I'll go to Whole Foods which is a store I very rarely go to [TS]

01:25:52   and only go to their little salad bar that is that is way more than a salad bar [TS]

01:25:55   and I get myself a little smorgasbord of you know randomness. So I. [TS]

01:26:00   Like a little box and I put all the food I want in there thinking you know this is probably like five [TS]

01:26:04   or ten bucks worth of food and I go to check out and it was a solid like eight hundred dollars. [TS]

01:26:09   Too many hard boiled eggs they go by the way and I don't know I'm not I think I think what it was. [TS]

01:26:14   This is my first thought as soon as I as soon as I was checked out was should have been a little lighter on the mac [TS]

01:26:20   and cheese. That's tough stance. That's a rookie mistake that all of that was like. [TS]

01:26:24   Like by miscellaneous hot [TS]

01:26:26   and cold food mixes by weight things like the in the handful of those places I'm sure the from everywhere BUT LIKE THAT [TS]

01:26:32   WAS LIKE of rookie mistake. [TS]

01:26:33   Like if you if you get a job in the city [TS]

01:26:35   and you're going to lodge everybody you go to a place that has one of those big hot bars in the middle like rookie [TS]

01:26:40   mistake. [TS]

01:26:40   Never go to those things because like all the stuff that looks good is so fricken heavy [TS]

01:26:45   and you know you put like a little side of some pasta at like you know a little piece of chicken in there. [TS]

01:26:51   Eleven dollars. [TS]

01:26:52   But there's no way of getting out of there and getting a good deal [TS]

01:26:57   and they have the viability for the kind of fruit where they will take for it [TS]

01:27:00   and cut it into a few thousand dollars a square like I don't know how they're pricing the labor [TS]

01:27:07   but like you can buy a whole pineapple her X. Amount and you can buy a Cup quarter final for twenty X. [TS]

01:27:13   I don't know what happened. [TS]

01:27:16   Well clearly we're in that we're in the wrong business we should be getting to the cutting for business right. [TS]

01:27:20   That's obviously worth a large premium. Now John since you have a i Phone be it apples or whatever. [TS]

01:27:26   Well done on my lawn hardware is gone [TS]

01:27:29   and you mentioned before other people were telling me like well you think you're somebody signed if you look at our [TS]

01:27:33   industry I also have no retina Macs either at home [TS]

01:27:35   or at work you know so my loaner hardware that I used to have your family is all gone including the phone so I am back [TS]

01:27:41   to my dumb phone I'm back to all my non random acts so I have not use Apple to answer questions. [TS]

01:27:47   OK And what is the current plan with regard to getting [TS]

01:27:52   and i Phone Is that still happening is happening soon happening later. [TS]

01:27:55   Probably a lot of them are they reminded me today that about Apple discounts. [TS]

01:28:00   They have those friends and family discounts and so I may be able to get one of those [TS]

01:28:03   and if I do do that that will influence my hardware buying decisions and I gotta figure out how all those work [TS]

01:28:08   and wild life. [TS]

01:28:09   I'm very annoyed that I didn't even know these existed until today [TS]

01:28:11   and I have known existed because various people have offered them to me in the past when I wasn't buying hardware [TS]

01:28:16   and I just keep forgetting that they exist. [TS]

01:28:19   So with that in mind let's really quickly I know we're running a little long. [TS]

01:28:22   Marco did you order a Ryan Mack I think so it's a little vague with the business reps like [TS]

01:28:30   when your order has actually been placed I have not yet been charged for it [TS]

01:28:34   and I asked if they had an order not because they said it was it was already really preparing for shipment [TS]

01:28:39   but so I don't know I have no tracking number. [TS]

01:28:43   I have tried the look at my order number and I don't even know what e-mail address they put in for me [TS]

01:28:47   and I tried a few and they couldn't find anything so I don't know it's always vague with business reps. [TS]

01:28:53   Fair enough and John are you intending to buy a Mac. [TS]

01:28:58   Not so waiting forever else they get theirs and see what they're like [TS]

01:29:02   and you know all that jazz although I keep Now that I hear more and more about the i Pad Air too [TS]

01:29:07   and lusting after more so I don't know I don't I don't know I got it after my view is done I have all these like things [TS]

01:29:14   I'm going to buy it to reward myself for finishing again [TS]

01:29:17   and you know use some of the money I get paid for their view to buy stuff like one of the things I want to get a P.S. [TS]

01:29:22   For been like I don't really need to be as for there's no games out there that I want now I guess the wait on that [TS]

01:29:27   maybe by the time by a slim version will be out. [TS]

01:29:29   If I wait long enough they read in Iraq well you know way to market to help them are all the problems are blah blah [TS]

01:29:34   blah i Phone I'm probably going to deal with all the hassles of trying to like you know get a Verizon family plan [TS]

01:29:42   and doing all that Billings thought that I was going to be a nightmare. [TS]

01:29:46   And then the arbutus Council make sense of this [TS]

01:29:48   and so you know paralysis means I just end up sitting here not by anything [TS]

01:29:52   but I will buy some things eventually probably before the end of the year. That's extremely useful. [TS]

01:29:58   You can you know I don't want to die. So that's true. [TS]

01:30:03   Hardware may or may not be showing up at both of our houses some point here. [TS]

01:30:08   This gracious thanks was worth responses this week. Back please. Igloo and Linda dot com and we will see you next week. [TS]

01:30:18   To be an accidental accidental [TS]

01:30:26   and to use your time today sir said that he read so I went back to my smaller i Pod touch now and [TS]

01:31:21   and I just use the big phone. And then I went back to a small one and a small one. [TS]

01:31:26   The biggest things I feel are it so that skinny or not so much the height [TS]

01:31:30   but the skinniness I just feel like I get used to the wider screen and just having like more of a web page visible [TS]

01:31:36   and stuff even like reading tweets real like when what's the big deal it just feels wider. [TS]

01:31:41   But the other thing is like even though I can reach so much more of the the i Pod Touch I don't know like I started to [TS]

01:31:48   even have the short time I had the sex. [TS]

01:31:50   I started to get like the hand motions to reach the really far parts of the screen like the hand shuffle I would have [TS]

01:31:55   to do to reach the upper left corner. I started to get good at that and now I want to go back to the small. [TS]

01:32:00   I want to start doing that motion and it's like you don't need to do that motion to get that corner [TS]

01:32:04   and I like I don't know if you like. [TS]

01:32:07   I've built up skills of playing a particular game and now the game has been taken away [TS]

01:32:11   and the skills that I've built up are not useful anymore I'm kind of sad about it. [TS]

01:32:14   It's a strange feeling that I did not I did not expect to have this feeling [TS]

01:32:18   but it just it just feels like I was getting good at that big thing I mean [TS]

01:32:23   and it's not there's not so much positive feeling I go this is so much more I like it so much better there's not even [TS]

01:32:28   that much of that I do I do feel it a little bit less kind of less precarious but again I was using without a case. [TS]

01:32:34   So it's weird I get my i Phone six eventually how I feel about a longer term. [TS]

01:32:40   So out of curiosity what what is making you not buy yet if you've already decided that you're probably going to buy an [TS]

01:32:47   i Phone six point six has come out. [TS]

01:32:49   We know it's not going to change until roughly year from now when it will be a terrible hundred i Phone six. [TS]

01:32:55   Why not get it now has a side of my going to go into an Apple store [TS]

01:32:59   and do it how am I going to deal with phone number stuff. [TS]

01:33:02   My how are we going to change our horizon plan if I just you know they would eventually like it just as anything [TS]

01:33:08   involved with it other than me clicking a bunch of buttons [TS]

01:33:10   and waiting for a package to show up at my house then it's an hour [TS]

01:33:15   and stubbornness that Casey I'm betting he doesn't get i Phone six. [TS]

01:33:19   I'm betting this takes until close enough to next fall that John has decided to wait because I wait until next hour. [TS]

01:33:27   Here's here's the bet I will take that bet but if you lose I get to give you a playlist for pre-show music one night. [TS]

01:33:35   You pick the wrong thing to bet their cases are going to win this bet these are things pick something much better than [TS]

01:33:39   that. And look I'm willing to do that. Yeah exactly. It's him it's moot anyway he had a deal. Now what else going on. [TS]

01:33:48   Do we have anything to say about this game or Gates stuff isn't really much to say other than it's terrible. [TS]

01:33:52   Yeah [TS]

01:33:53   but I have two links that I'm going to put into the show notes it's still it's still grinding on we talked about it. [TS]

01:34:00   Before they get a lot of bad feedback about it because I think people who know about [TS]

01:34:04   or care about this issue don't listen to our podcast which is nice. [TS]

01:34:09   Honestly I'm kind of glad that the people who are already Jean [TS]

01:34:12   and crazy on the gamer gate side of it like trying to like the abuse of these people [TS]

01:34:18   and kind of let it listen to our show. [TS]

01:34:19   So that's also a very good fans to have [TS]

01:34:23   and then we got one e-mail from like that the well meaning people who like were affiliated with it [TS]

01:34:29   but you know couldn't understand why I was trashing him [TS]

01:34:32   and so on is over that I replied to one of them by e-mail who sent along the amount what I basically said is even [TS]

01:34:37   though your intentions may be good and even though this is like weeks and weeks ago [TS]

01:34:41   and even though you may not have done anything bad even though you agree with the stated aims of this movement the [TS]

01:34:48   movement itself has been entirely co-opted and tainted by all the bad things that happen that is corrupted [TS]

01:34:55   and by associating yourself with it you are bringing yourself down like it's basically you know I don't I. [TS]

01:35:02   If I try to think of some group of this applies to what is going into other situations but anyway this group [TS]

01:35:07   and this name has been irredeemably tainted it doesn't matter what they do going forward doesn't like the name the [TS]

01:35:13   banner it's just too many bad things have happened under this banner [TS]

01:35:17   and you can yell all you want about that's not what it's really about Babatz too late now so if you really believe in [TS]

01:35:23   the good things that you think this thing you know the gamer gets out it was about you must This is so see it from them. [TS]

01:35:29   Start a new hash tag and under a new banner with a new name and a new platform or whatever because this one is dead [TS]

01:35:35   and if you really care about the things you wouldn't care about the name it's associated with because you would just go [TS]

01:35:39   off and do something else and fight for whatever is you think you're fighting for. [TS]

01:35:42   But gamer gate is you know is as lost is lost to decent people so anyway there's been tons of links of others I keep [TS]

01:35:49   tweeting about it people complain that I tweet about it they don't want to hear about it yet. [TS]

01:35:52   Tough luck if you don't you don't like it. [TS]

01:35:54   Well somebody else ought to be able to talk now about how many people ought to tell him what he should be tweeting [TS]

01:35:59   about or not. [TS]

01:36:00   Like that's you know that's the way it is [TS]

01:36:01   and that's it is it is the ultimate in luxury to be able to say I'm tired of this game or a good thing. [TS]

01:36:08   Yeah I think must be nice not in any way whatever I don't want I don't get into it. [TS]

01:36:12   So the two links I have these are actually from today and there's been a lot of good ones and I've been reading them [TS]

01:36:16   and tweeting about these two good kind of book and not this thing is over [TS]

01:36:20   but two good book ends as of where we are right now. [TS]

01:36:23   One is from the respective of a journalist who is trying to write stories about gamer gate [TS]

01:36:27   and was frustrated with the process of trying to just just do straight up this is this is the view from the outside [TS]

01:36:32   This is the sort of disengaged dispassionate view of the thing worth like I don't know this is I'm not a gamer [TS]

01:36:39   but I'm a reporter and I'm trying to report on this and here and here's the frustrating situation [TS]

01:36:43   and you know here's why it's difficult to report on it. [TS]

01:36:47   And so I'll put this edition with us from New York magazine who is the person who wrote this has been a before Jessie [TS]

01:36:56   single I don't know if that's a man or a woman it shouldn't matter but when it comes to game or get it definitely does. [TS]

01:37:02   So that's the view from the outside and the view from the inside is Felicia Day who you may [TS]

01:37:06   or may not know as a actress and online media person doing all sorts of things. [TS]

01:37:13   And it also known as a gamer hasn't said much about gamer gate but finally posted something about game gate [TS]

01:37:18   and hers is a personal story of like how it is affecting her and why she was afraid to say anything about it [TS]

01:37:26   and why she is ashamed for being afraid [TS]

01:37:28   and just what this is done to the gaming community to total huge you know opposite ends of the spectrum talking about [TS]

01:37:36   gamer get I think if you read both of those things you have a good idea what this is like you know what the whole thing [TS]

01:37:42   is about and what it's like [TS]

01:37:43   and by the way she posted this thing in less than an hour later the gamer gators attempted to docs are according to her [TS]

01:37:48   but people are tweeting these days you know par for the course. [TS]

01:37:51   Anyway I'll put those two links and if you're sick of reading about this stuff [TS]

01:37:56   but you haven't read anything to us talk about this read these two things. Will sort of get you up to speed I think. [TS]

01:38:03   Anyway it continues to grind on that people continue to do bad things. [TS]

01:38:07   The rest of us continue to suffer under it there's all sorts of side shows associated with it. [TS]

01:38:12   I really wish you would just go away. I have again urge everybody who is in any way associated with that. [TS]

01:38:20   Disassociate yourself. [TS]

01:38:21   Start something new that one that that one is poisoned by bad people who know no decent person agrees with to stop you [TS]

01:38:29   that's the thing is I just can't wrap my mind around being upset about whether or not there are women in video games [TS]

01:38:38   or Let's even assume being upset about supposedly impropriety in journalism. [TS]

01:38:43   How is how does that lead to forcing Briana ruin her husband out of her own. [TS]

01:38:49   Like how is that a reasonable course of action. [TS]

01:38:52   Maybe it's because I'm sane [TS]

01:38:55   and maybe I don't I don't I don't care that's just an excuse it's just an excuse to lash out at things you don't like [TS]

01:39:01   doesn't matter what it is and I'm not going to use any analogies [TS]

01:39:03   but there are plenty of them like you hate something something happens [TS]

01:39:06   when you use an excuse to lash out of the thing you hate like no matter what happens it's an excuse to attack women. [TS]

01:39:11   If women are tangentially involved in any way it's an excuse I mean the Felicia Day thing is like she wrote this [TS]

01:39:16   heartfelt thing that is not really an attack on much of anything and really gets attacked [TS]

01:39:20   and various men have written things and not gotten attacked in the same way. [TS]

01:39:24   Various men have written things very recently that are much worse today get attacked now they don't. [TS]

01:39:28   Why because these people have you know they have they they hate women like they can massage [TS]

01:39:34   and it's like that's that's their thing and no matter what happens [TS]

01:39:37   and it's an excuse to say woman get in your place no matter what happens it doesn't matter what it is like you know you [TS]

01:39:42   gave my game a bad review or I don't like what you said. It's like and therefore that means he's attacked a woman. [TS]

01:39:49   Everything is an excuse and one that is looking for right. [TS]

01:39:52   And again this doesn't if you hear me saying this this doesn't apply to you because everyone says like you say all [TS]

01:39:56   gamers hate women nope nope not you I'm telling you the gamers who do. [TS]

01:40:00   Women don't associate with game again because it's poisoned like go someplace different to do what you want to do which [TS]

01:40:05   should be fine you shouldn't care about this particular cause this particular decentralize thing this particular hash [TS]

01:40:10   tag you know if you care about corruption in the gaming press which is a thing and then a thing for years and years. [TS]

01:40:16   Fight that but has nothing to do a gamer get anymore and never really did. [TS]

01:40:20   But John gamer gate is not about hating women it's about journalistic integrity. Right and that B.S. [TS]

01:40:26   Is now finally filtering through to everybody now. [TS]

01:40:28   Essentially everybody even reporters who had no idea what it was in come in and like I tried to report on this [TS]

01:40:32   but everyone keeps telling me it's not about hatred of women [TS]

01:40:34   and every time I look at the game again that's all I see [TS]

01:40:36   and I say all those aren't the real ones like the No True Scotsman thing which they talk about in this thing. [TS]

01:40:40   You know every time something bad happens some of that oh that's not real game again it's about it's a decentralized [TS]

01:40:45   thing with no actual leadership with no actual platform [TS]

01:40:48   and anything bad that happens is well that's not really what we're about. [TS]

01:40:51   That's not how it works you know you pick you know political knowledge of the Democratic Party the Republican Party [TS]

01:40:57   they have platforms they have leaders you can you know be expelled from them you're not allowed to say that you're a [TS]

01:41:03   member you know I'm a representative of the Democratic Party. [TS]

01:41:06   I am I am their duly pointed representative and I will tell you what their position is [TS]

01:41:10   and then you say a bunch of hateful stock you will no longer have the doing of hundred rep the Democratic Party they [TS]

01:41:15   have an actual platform they have actually to ship they have things like if they use we want here's what we stand for [TS]

01:41:19   various games get completely decentralise terrible things happen and I was like last night were really about. [TS]

01:41:24   Well that's all you got to do and if you go into the game or get boards all about attacking women [TS]

01:41:28   and saying terrible things over there Bob that's not really what it's about. [TS]

01:41:31   Well that's it doesn't matter what you say it's about only matters what you do and with no leadership [TS]

01:41:35   and no platform and no formal organizing body there's no way for you to say these people are not part of the area. [TS]

01:41:41   If they use the tag and they do bad things they're part of it. [TS]

01:41:45   You can't kick them out because there is no centralization or you can kick them out. [TS]

01:41:48   Everything they do just becomes what Gary it is about right and because [TS]

01:41:53   and you know there's a difference between what you one person might want it to be about or might believe it's about. [TS]

01:42:00   Out versus what it actually is about and what it actually is about is widespread abuse. Like that's all it is. [TS]

01:42:06   It's widespread abuse of women like Briana said it's like I don't care about what your theory is [TS]

01:42:11   or whatever the outcomes and this is the outcome the outcome is so plain as day. [TS]

01:42:16   Like that you don't [TS]

01:42:17   and you know it's just ridiculous with the worst part of the recent phenomenon has been sort of right wing political I [TS]

01:42:26   don't know what you call the people over there get delist right wing political celebrities latching onto it as a way to [TS]

01:42:31   further their agendas because they don't know or care anything again so they see this thing is going on here [TS]

01:42:35   and they're like oh well you know we can use an angry mob to our advantage to further our agendas which had nothing to [TS]

01:42:40   do with video games and certainly nothing to do with ethics and video games present. [TS]

01:42:44   It's all ridiculous side show that the worst thing about it is like it shows that sort of the immune system of decent [TS]

01:42:51   people and sort of like our way of handling like this. [TS]

01:42:54   This movement should not be giving us the trouble that it is right. [TS]

01:42:58   Like where the gamer get is well organized sort of about stuff in campaigns to tell a sponsor not to support someone [TS]

01:43:05   inside said something negative about game again [TS]

01:43:07   and sponsors will be like oh we're getting all these e-mails who better stop doing this [TS]

01:43:11   and in the bailout because they don't know a game or get As and I think about this [TS]

01:43:14   and then we're like after the fact saying no what are you doing it like you've been you've been fooled by a bunch of [TS]

01:43:19   trolls there too. [TS]

01:43:20   Yes they did send you a lot of angry letters [TS]

01:43:22   but they don't represent anybody suffer terrible people like don't make financial decisions based on you know a human [TS]

01:43:29   driven letter writing campaign people running stats on like the tweets that are going up about this. [TS]

01:43:34   Like they said I forget what the percentage is over some huge percentage of tweets of the game [TS]

01:43:38   or get hashtags were made by only one hundred Twitter accounts most of which were created in the last two months. [TS]

01:43:44   It's entirely a sock puppet type you know like they are able to further their nefarious [TS]

01:43:50   and through means that are you know completely transparent [TS]

01:43:53   and yet are able to fool large corporations into believing that they represent an important constituency. [TS]

01:43:58   And then all of us are out here like that. [TS]

01:44:00   I believe this is even happening like we haven't we don't have a good way to deal with organized extremely negative [TS]

01:44:07   terrible anonymous trolling like [TS]

01:44:10   and hopefully this whole terrible experience will sort of teach the civilized world essentially how to manage [TS]

01:44:17   situations like this better like make us all more savvy give us better tools give us better organizing sort of [TS]

01:44:22   antibodies against this kind of disease. [TS]

01:44:26   I don't know I mean maybe it'll take two or three more runs at this [TS]

01:44:29   but you know it's terrible I wish it would get better but who knows. [TS]

01:44:35   I disagree with one small thing that you said you said the game again doesn't have a platform [TS]

01:44:38   and I don't think that's true their platform is hate. They just hate things they hate women they hate. [TS]

01:44:44   Suppose a journalist they hate things. Oh no it's just women men journalists and be doing OK. [TS]

01:44:50   Fair point that you say when and that's that's the platform right. [TS]

01:44:54   I just I don't understand how any sane and intelligent human being can not see through this [TS]

01:45:03   and see that this is wrong like these people who are who are Doc seeing these women [TS]

01:45:07   and making these threats against these women like I just it does not compute how that is acceptable behavior. [TS]

01:45:14   How was that OK what if these women really done to affect your world [TS]

01:45:18   and even if they have how is that an OK reaction like that just I don't understand how any of this makes sense. [TS]

01:45:26   Lack of empathy ends justify the means all sorts of things that like you know [TS]

01:45:30   and really as I said in the original show about this that these people you know don't understand what they're actually [TS]

01:45:36   angry about [TS]

01:45:37   and so many people are insulted by that because they always think I'm talking about them you know what you're angry [TS]

01:45:41   about the not talking about you don't know anyway. [TS]

01:45:44   It's kind of a tautology there [TS]

01:45:45   but like these are people who are in pain people who act this way are not like happy well adjusted people with awesome [TS]

01:45:52   family lives and they have a filling jobs [TS]

01:45:54   and you know I mean that's they're in pain currently they're in pain from the past or whatever and. [TS]

01:46:00   If focus that you know why. [TS]

01:46:02   Why am I in pain what's wrong with my life [TS]

01:46:04   and you know they're placing a lot of the blame on that on perceived enemies whatever they may be [TS]

01:46:09   and in this case it's women and progressives and whatever it is they're you know [TS]

01:46:13   but like the people who do this like you like I can understand if you like how how can people believe that they're the [TS]

01:46:18   bad guys in their own stories [TS]

01:46:19   and sometimes they don't sometimes they don't believe they're the bad guys in their own stories [TS]

01:46:23   but sometimes they do believe they do believe in their heart of hearts of the bad guys in their own stories [TS]

01:46:27   and they're doing it because they're in pain for unrelated reasons [TS]

01:46:30   and they feel like they they deserve to be the bad guy or they should be like it's not you know. [TS]

01:46:38   I have I have empathy for the people who are on that side of the fence because really like in my experience people who [TS]

01:46:43   do terrible things unless they're actually clinically insane which most people are not. [TS]

01:46:48   It's because they're in pain right. [TS]

01:46:49   It doesn't make it any better and we need to find ways to deal with this and help ourselves [TS]

01:46:55   and secondarily help them you know. [TS]

01:46:57   But it's you can't is easy to demonize people who do terrible things but really like if you think about it like [TS]

01:47:03   when you're trying to get into their head space imagine your life was not like it was imagine life was just terrible in [TS]

01:47:10   all possible ways and you had an amazingly bad childhood or you're super angry about something [TS]

01:47:15   or you have you know some kind of undiagnosed you know unmedicated emotional imbalance [TS]

01:47:21   and you have not been able to deal with like all of that dissatisfaction natured anger has to go somewhere [TS]

01:47:27   and the blending in weird places sometimes turns into word on themselves sometimes outward sometimes both. [TS]

01:47:32   So I think I've been really understand what it is that's making this happen it's just that like as a society one job is [TS]

01:47:40   figuring out why that's happening in like you know we should prevent these outcomes of making people have better [TS]

01:47:44   happier lives and not end up in these terrible situations and and you know [TS]

01:47:47   but the other aspect is how do we protect our selves as a society against internal to do essentially say you know as [TS]

01:47:54   you'll find out when your child arrives you know this is not OK This is not OK behavior too. [TS]

01:48:00   You know enforce limits on you know it's so difficult. [TS]

01:48:02   Line one is OK behavior online in real life this is not OK we don't accept this [TS]

01:48:06   and that's the worst thing is like part of the whole you know what's happening in games these days that sort of [TS]

01:48:13   progress games are making in doing and saying more interesting things. [TS]

01:48:17   If the people who are on that side of the fence doing bad things to the women had grown up in a world that sort of post [TS]

01:48:24   you know like a feminist revolution of gaming you know like if if these people had grown up in a world where women were [TS]

01:48:31   not as objectified as they are in popular culture now there would be less likely to direct all of their hatred [TS]

01:48:36   and bad feelings towards women. [TS]

01:48:38   You know I mean like if they could see women as human beings instead of people they would actually be happier people [TS]

01:48:43   like they're fighting against something that could have saved them from doing the things that they are today. [TS]

01:48:47   You know I mean like is all this contributes to like why am I miserable and where do I direct that energy. [TS]

01:48:55   The studio we're up in the same thing that's making me say unintentionally you know racist [TS]

01:49:00   or sexist things because that's just how I grew up that that influences all of us [TS]

01:49:04   and like to be people working for change in the games [TS]

01:49:06   and everyone else are trying to make a world where people are less steeped in these bad things growing up to them [TS]

01:49:11   and they come to adulthood hopefully they won't hold on to these you know antiquated [TS]

01:49:16   and harmful notions about other people. [TS]

01:49:19   You know I just it seems like the same kind of playbook that all oppressed groups have gone through you know I'm coming [TS]

01:49:27   from very much a position of luxury because I don't really know what that's like I mean my my dad's family is Jewish [TS]

01:49:35   but I never really practiced growing up so I've never personally been exposed to any sort of anti-Semitic behavior. [TS]

01:49:43   But it seems like from outsiders from a luxury point of view it seems like the same playbook that you know let's hate [TS]

01:49:51   Jews in oh let's hate black people and it's and now it's oh it's hate women and when does that ever work out. [TS]

01:49:58   When does that ever. End up OK it's working out well for hating women because that is evergreen. [TS]

01:50:04   Women have been subjugated for millennia and it will continue to be the case like that you know. [TS]

01:50:12   Progress has been made and all these fronts. [TS]

01:50:14   But like they seem to go in cycles [TS]

01:50:17   and women is the one the most people I have to make that I did not think about as much it was and I'm growing up [TS]

01:50:21   and again the system of education and environment [TS]

01:50:23   and who you are I'm growing up you know like you Casey you just the white male you know the same as all of my peers not [TS]

01:50:31   different in any particular way. [TS]

01:50:32   You learn about in school you learn about Martin Luther King you know you learn about slavery you learn about the [TS]

01:50:38   Native Americans you were also just things and you do women's suffrage in voting [TS]

01:50:42   and you're like oh that's a silly one point women couldn't vote that's obviously ridiculous they can vote as well again [TS]

01:50:47   but you don't go that far like in my education at least we talked about the basic human rights of like moving [TS]

01:50:53   or the lawn and own land and vote and stuff like that and we talked about slavery and civil rights [TS]

01:50:57   and stuff like that and then it's like and we come to the present day and everybody's equal [TS]

01:51:01   and it's like no not exactly [TS]

01:51:03   and we least in my education in my pre-college education there was a lot of time spent on talking about feminism [TS]

01:51:10   or the objectification of women [TS]

01:51:12   or whatever this is sort of like the natural undertones of everything of everything you live in you like is to accept [TS]

01:51:18   it like you could say I am you know I understand the racism is terrible and still exists [TS]

01:51:23   but women you know white women are treated perfectly fairly on our right and women must not be issued. [TS]

01:51:28   She was like you know minorities and that's where all the problems [TS]

01:51:33   but you know well women are everything's fine there it's like not like it's just this becomes the baseline that you [TS]

01:51:38   don't even notice that this it doesn't seem like that's the whole thing with the game or gay people. [TS]

01:51:45   Doesn't even seem like women are oppressed was like [TS]

01:51:47   when you talk with us just the way things are that's not oppression. [TS]

01:51:49   Everyone's in their designated role the woman stays home and cooks the man goes to work [TS]

01:51:53   and like it that's just the natural order of things that's not oppression what are you talking about [TS]

01:51:57   and it just it seems so far as like. [TS]

01:52:00   Slavery That's oppression obviously right [TS]

01:52:02   but you know it's I have to admit it took me a lot of much longer time to have a clear view on [TS]

01:52:10   and pervasive sexism in the world then than it did for any of these other things [TS]

01:52:15   and as I said the last time we talked about this like if you just expose yourself to these things don't don't [TS]

01:52:21   necessarily engage with them don't argue with them like just expose yourself to women's explaining what it's like to be [TS]

01:52:27   a woman a woman in the world and don't like [TS]

01:52:30   and just just take it in like just accept it listen to it don't take offense at it because you're not the one doing [TS]

01:52:36   these things for them right. [TS]

01:52:37   You know maybe think about things you might have been the other people there like this maybe you can decide whether you [TS]

01:52:40   think it's good or bad [TS]

01:52:41   but if you listen enough the preponderance of stories about this happening will slowly make the gears start turning [TS]

01:52:49   your head and realize the ridiculous inequalities that existed that you didn't see before [TS]

01:52:54   and I don't have any hope of that happening for people who are involved in game or get maybe [TS]

01:52:59   when they're older they're young. I came in again. [TS]

01:53:02   It took me until my thirty's just to start to even think about these things in a serious way. [TS]

01:53:06   And if you're an eighteen year old in a chat room trying to figure out how you're going to send anonymous death threats [TS]

01:53:12   to women you go a long road ahead of you certainly do. [TS]

01:53:17   I just it just it's so terrible and I don't know I just it's not fair. It just plain isn't fair. [TS]

01:53:27   I think you know John you said something earlier much earlier now [TS]

01:53:30   but he says the earlier that you know we as you know as as technology [TS]

01:53:36   or as as a society with the modern era net we don't really have good ways to deal with you know very strong anonymous [TS]

01:53:45   negative feedback among the many other things that we need to work on and as a society that are more long term [TS]

01:53:52   and difficult to attack this might be something we can do sooner or early start thinking about you know like. [TS]

01:54:00   Designing our systems in designing social networks in designing technology and in designing the tools [TS]

01:54:06   and the networks [TS]

01:54:06   and the media that we as in a modern technically connected people use we need to consider like you know what are the [TS]

01:54:16   possible abuses here. [TS]

01:54:18   You know how much how much damage how much abuse can a very small group of determined vigils dish out with this thing [TS]

01:54:25   that we're building. [TS]

01:54:26   And is there a way that we can design it in such a way that both they can abuse fewer people or in fewer ways [TS]

01:54:34   and that somehow we can reduce their incentives to abuse. [TS]

01:54:38   So and this is you know in many ways like when I've designed similar systems for Tumblr [TS]

01:54:43   or for Instapaper for overcast I've always been concerned about spam. [TS]

01:54:46   And so like one of the one of the day things like an overcast you can recommend to your Twitter followers. [TS]

01:54:53   There is nowhere in the entire app [TS]

01:54:55   and there probably never will be anywhere in the entire app where you can see a most recommended global list. [TS]

01:55:02   And the reason for this is very deliberate it's because I didn't want anybody to to be able to spam to create a whole [TS]

01:55:08   bunch of accounts to all recommend certain things to boost them to the top of that list like the old big front page [TS]

01:55:13   problem. I didn't want to have to deal with that. [TS]

01:55:16   And you know same thing with Instapaper there was never like it shaver had its recommended global stories [TS]

01:55:20   but those were human picked. [TS]

01:55:22   So there you know there's never like I intentionally try to avoid creating things that can be reasonably spammed [TS]

01:55:31   or I voiced spam by by avoiding creating incentives to spam like there's no reason to spam with a bunch overcast a [TS]

01:55:40   counter-argument episode because only people who follow you want to see them and you know that [TS]

01:55:44   and it's attached to your name like that was going to solve itself right. [TS]

01:55:49   In designing systems you know now in the future I think we should in addition to considering things like spam [TS]

01:55:56   incentives we need to consider abuse incentives and you know how much. [TS]

01:56:00   Tension can can one person get with relatively little validation from others. [TS]

01:56:05   How much how much can an ominous [TS]

01:56:07   and honest comments be heard you know like right now on Twitter anybody can reply anybody else and they will [TS]

01:56:15   and it will show up in their replies timeline and Twitter obviously Twitter is a lot of people are pointing out [TS]

01:56:21   and have been pointing out why Twitter's policies on on dealing with abuse complaints. [TS]

01:56:27   I don't know the details of them but they sound pretty terrible. [TS]

01:56:29   I don't you know that might not be solvable I don't know. [TS]

01:56:32   It sounds like it's it's always a problem like saying oh well Twitter should you know spend his accounts [TS]

01:56:37   and then it becomes a question of well you know what if somebody files a false report against you [TS]

01:56:41   and so it's these are all tough problems. [TS]

01:56:44   I think Twitter can do better [TS]

01:56:45   but I don't think they can magically solve the problem like that like I don't like they can do a lot with just been [TS]

01:56:51   looking more at like the problems of reporting on Twitter [TS]

01:56:53   and mostly has to do with how how Twitter approaches the probs like if they approach their form for reporting people [TS]

01:57:02   more like a sort of a crisis center would approach supporting someone who is having some kind of crisis like domestic [TS]

01:57:09   abuse [TS]

01:57:09   or something like that like has a different approach like you assumes the person is in crisis you don't you know what [TS]

01:57:14   you can't demand of the person like the one of the big things like Andrew all your information is form including your [TS]

01:57:19   real complete first and last name and by the way we make sense information of the person you're reporting. [TS]

01:57:24   Like I know what they're kind of getting at in that. [TS]

01:57:27   But the way it's worded doesn't isn't made for a mindset for a person who's coming in like in crisis [TS]

01:57:33   and saying you know or [TS]

01:57:34   or sorry we rejected your report because you're not the person who is you know who is being attacked. [TS]

01:57:39   Like if you send someone a link to to bees or tweet [TS]

01:57:41   but if you're not the target of it like they just reject it out of hand like it's just not it's just not designed the [TS]

01:57:46   way it should be for something that people go to when they're in crisis or when [TS]

01:57:49   when someone they care about is in crisis. [TS]

01:57:51   It should be totally designed to put their personalities to begin strong guarantees that the things they would [TS]

01:57:56   reasonably fear for example that you reporting someone the. [TS]

01:58:00   A new report would know who you are and would have more information about you because you reported it. [TS]

01:58:05   Like you can't have a form that even hinted that well look for a solution. [TS]

01:58:08   Obviously never actually do that and I don't think they would actually do that [TS]

01:58:11   but the form makes it seem like they would and so if you're in a crisis situation you land on that form. [TS]

01:58:15   You hate Twitter was like What the hell I have a problem here [TS]

01:58:18   or if they bounce back your thing with automatic responses. [TS]

01:58:22   Sorry your report cannot be a process because you're not the target of the abuse. [TS]

01:58:26   Yeah that's pretty bad again someone just posted it. [TS]

01:58:28   Someone just posted a death threat with someone's full name and address on it and I read [TS]

01:58:31   and you get a robo response like there are tons of things where you can do the niggaz better [TS]

01:58:35   but you're right that at the root of it it's like anonymity is important for large classes of people on the Internet [TS]

01:58:41   and you can't just say oh every can't be anonymous you need to use your you know full name [TS]

01:58:44   and Social Security number and everything to have a strong correlated Id like anonymity needs to be there [TS]

01:58:50   but once you have an immunity and people keep making new accounts [TS]

01:58:53   and like it's not one hundred percent solvable that Twitter could be doing a whole lot better job right [TS]

01:58:58   but I think though ultimately this is a design flaw of Twitter and systems like it like this in the way like this [TS]

01:59:05   when when I have a whole wire creditor I quoted Howard Stern [TS]

01:59:09   and a blog post saying Oh Howard Stern he used Twitter here and there [TS]

01:59:13   but he said on this show few months ago he was he was you know because he always complains about how everyone on [TS]

01:59:19   Twitter is basically a huge you know bad person to everyone else. [TS]

01:59:23   And and he said you know why do we give these people so much access to us. [TS]

01:59:28   Like why why do you let any random person yell at you ten seconds after you post and why do you go and read it [TS]

01:59:35   and why Can anybody in the world have to have your attention so easily that I think the question of the amount of [TS]

01:59:44   access we [TS]

01:59:46   and systems like Twitter allow other people to have to us that is something that I think we've assumed in designing [TS]

01:59:56   social and Internet communication systems for the last you know decade or so. [TS]

02:00:00   We've we've all assumed that had to be this way that of course it's the power of the Internet anybody can talk to [TS]

02:00:04   anybody else. [TS]

02:00:05   But maybe that's a bad assumption maybe that is a fundamental design flaw and may be you know future social networks [TS]

02:00:13   and future future directions of current social networks maybe maybe future networks [TS]

02:00:17   and Future Communications is it that need to be more limited maybe I shouldn't be able to reply Howard Stern whenever I [TS]

02:00:24   want to and have him see it. [TS]

02:00:26   Don't you think that's part of the beauty of Twitter like well it's good that is that advantage like you know I think [TS]

02:00:32   that's what we want to try to be like that direct connection to people well it was there [TS]

02:00:36   and had a connection like part of the reason that works at all in Twitter is because people are constrained. [TS]

02:00:40   They can't send five hundred paragraph screeds to Howard Stern they just have to send one liner insults like the [TS]

02:00:46   problem is [TS]

02:00:46   when it's not you know because the block function does exist like a system like that without a block function at all [TS]

02:00:52   would be terrible the block function is not perfect but does exist [TS]

02:00:55   but the problem of the block functions is totally defeated by the ability just keep creating new accounts. [TS]

02:00:59   Right so if you are super famous and you get that abuse you like I will not probably manage that with blocks [TS]

02:01:04   or actually you block all the most horrible people in your fine no you never find they just keep creating new account [TS]

02:01:08   because the crazy people right [TS]

02:01:10   and that that is like the anonymity you couldn't you create a new account of if an account was strongly tied to your ID [TS]

02:01:17   but anonymity I think is an important feature of Twitter [TS]

02:01:20   and other Internet services that you can't say like Google tried to do. Oh no anonymity real names only. [TS]

02:01:25   Like that's that's not a tenable solution either so it is a very difficult problem but [TS]

02:01:30   when I was talking of the tools we need to deal with this I was talking more at the macro level than the micro the [TS]

02:01:35   micro level you can just get off Twitter like either permanently or for a certain period of time [TS]

02:01:39   but at the macro level it's like when sponsors are pulling ads from Web sites financially impacting that entire site [TS]

02:01:46   and the jobs of various people because of a coordinated fake letter writing campaign of people like pretending to be [TS]

02:01:51   concerned about some B.S. [TS]

02:01:52   Issue and in reality this trying to ruin the lives of women and journalists who happen to write for the site. [TS]

02:01:57   When that happens it shows that our are. [TS]

02:02:00   Corporations in organizations are not Internet savvy enough to know where essentially being trolled into stupid [TS]

02:02:04   behavior that has real consequences for real people here are politicians [TS]

02:02:08   but our own people we assume like you know this like Intel and Adobe recent comers again colon and O.B. [TS]

02:02:14   Would be a little more tech savvy than politicians let's say you know [TS]

02:02:18   and then finally like obviously anonymous death threats simply untraceable with no you know I mean that it goes with [TS]

02:02:24   the anonymity you don't want you want and in a mini [TS]

02:02:27   when you're trying to talk about how your husband is abusing your in you're afraid for your life [TS]

02:02:31   but you would like the person who threatened your life to not have anonymity so we kind of can't have it both ways [TS]

02:02:35   there I don't know what the solution is that [TS]

02:02:37   but you know I guess a step would be law enforcement taking these reports seriously being able to do anything at this [TS]

02:02:43   point. I get all these things get reported to authorities. [TS]

02:02:46   It's like it's like reporting a stolen bicycle to the police. [TS]

02:02:48   Basically I think stolen bicycle probably has higher priorities of place than on a messenger death threats thought [TS]

02:02:54   bicycle. You're disappointed about it and might have been expensive but it's not a big deal. [TS]

02:02:59   But seriously considered death threats associated plus your real address being sent out to people like you don't even [TS]

02:03:05   care if the person who sent that death threat meant that well you care that other people who might be seriously [TS]

02:03:10   unbalanced now have your address and now hate you because they've been riled up by this group or whatever [TS]

02:03:15   and yet what the heck can the police do. They're not tech savvy. [TS]

02:03:17   They can't get IP addresses for these people if they could could they track it down to you know it says I don't know [TS]

02:03:23   what the solution to that is but I can tell you that I would imagine law enforcement maybe would put on a good face [TS]

02:03:28   but what the hell are they going to do it's just they're not going to give you a personal bodyguard for the rest of [TS]

02:03:33   your life [TS]

02:03:34   and if you if you're rich you can have your if you can afford to have a personal bodyguard you're not a celebrity with [TS]

02:03:39   an entourage and a compound in a fortress your person living in a house [TS]

02:03:43   and are in a partner now you're scared for your life [TS]

02:03:45   and the police tell you realistically is nothing they can do about it so I don't know what we can do about that [TS]

02:03:50   but we're not doing a good job right now and this is a a new kind of threat. [TS]

02:03:54   You know I mean it's kind of like [TS]

02:03:55   and people you know shrug it off as many people pointed out like that that craziness I just got. [TS]

02:04:00   When shot at that school where was that I forget where that was I don't know if it was a while ago [TS]

02:04:04   but anyway this guy had had a series of you know anti woman screeds that is written on the Internet You Tube [TS]

02:04:10   and then he went just shot a bunch of women and self right. [TS]

02:04:13   It's not as if we're saying all this is never going to happen like it has happened in the past this is a plausible [TS]

02:04:17   threat that some crazy person who hates women and put all his hatred for [TS]

02:04:22   and all his pain in life into that can get a gun and go shoot people up so [TS]

02:04:26   when you make a threat like that it's like ha ha funny troll that would never happen. [TS]

02:04:29   It has already happened it's so plausible [TS]

02:04:31   and yet we have no tools to deal with it all we can do is like well we'll have to wait till someone shows up with a gun [TS]

02:04:37   and maybe we can do something about it like to it now. [TS]

02:04:40   And one that's that's why I think like you know you're right that there's always going to be like this like a baseline [TS]

02:04:46   number of disturbed people in the world that you know we just can't do anything about that like we have like that [TS]

02:04:53   they're always going to be there [TS]

02:04:54   and we can you know we can attempt to do our best to produce fewer crazy disturbed people in the world that's the best [TS]

02:05:01   we can really do and we can try to find them and treat them or imprison them or whatever like [TS]

02:05:06   but that's a that's a really hard problem to ever read a case like we're going to eradicate all bad people [TS]

02:05:11   and well that's you know that's not real [TS]

02:05:14   but I do think there is there's a lot to be said for removing the incentives here so you know right now if if Twitter [TS]

02:05:22   removes the ability for crazy people to coordinate their efforts and stalk people and creep people out [TS]

02:05:28   and docks them in everything those people have different places they can go they can all go to private message boards [TS]

02:05:34   they can go to I mean that's that's where they are they're coordinating on this private message board [TS]

02:05:37   and I think the rest think they're not the message boards on in private they're still one of the brightest [TS]

02:05:42   but like public message boards where they're talking about how they're going to do these things that if they had real [TS]

02:05:48   names [TS]

02:05:48   and addresses of these posts you can arrest them all now for the things they're all doing talk about are already illegal [TS]

02:05:54   just that well you have no idea where they are and it's like you know that's that's never going to be solved like. [TS]

02:06:00   Like that problem the way the way the Internet works. [TS]

02:06:03   Like that's anonymous coordination of things is always going to be possible it's always going to be interesting to keep [TS]

02:06:08   getting easier as tools get better you know that we're never going to solve that problem. [TS]

02:06:12   What we can solve [TS]

02:06:14   or what we can what we can help we can reduce is the access people have to anybody they want any time they want [TS]

02:06:21   and that's what I'm saying like I think we need to really rethink the social systems we've built [TS]

02:06:25   and say like is this really a good idea to allow this kind of totally like open you know in a way you know democratic [TS]

02:06:34   but what would your solution be like you make it like Live Journal we only have to invite people to see your trip you [TS]

02:06:39   can already protect your Twitter feed but that's just not how it works like the openness of it. [TS]

02:06:43   Anybody can follow you and that anybody can contribute. [TS]

02:06:46   Like when it's working well and [TS]

02:06:47   when people are all nice to each other that is the beauty of Twitter that's the beauty of you know life [TS]

02:06:51   and relationships with people so I don't see how you can fix that without you know sort of going insular [TS]

02:06:57   and making everybody sort of in their own little cocoons like that would take away what's good about Twitter like [TS]

02:07:03   and I don't like [TS]

02:07:04   when I think about how to try to try to fix this I think for the people who are doing all these bad things. [TS]

02:07:12   The people of those those people in that group who live in the first world who otherwise have more [TS]

02:07:17   or less comfortable lives and you know you don't know where the country's people [TS]

02:07:21   and they could have you they could be in war torn countries that we're currently bombing [TS]

02:07:25   and the whole family is dead and they're starving to death and they're on the Internet cafe somewhere [TS]

02:07:30   and over like so many more problems are going to if your baseline comfort is taken care of [TS]

02:07:35   and you sort of like have food you have shelter [TS]

02:07:37   but you're still super angry at the world which is probably a large portion of this thing. [TS]

02:07:41   It's like if we could have helped those people have their lives turn out differently [TS]

02:07:47   and have the things that influence them be different they would not be doing this now. [TS]

02:07:51   Like the long term plan of like we have to change society so that people are not ready is in an environment where they [TS]

02:07:57   see women as less than human and. I wrecked all their anger at them when things don't go the way they want. [TS]

02:08:03   You know what I mean. [TS]

02:08:04   Like that's the long term solutions like how to do I think I have a more pessimistic view of like the Twitter type [TS]

02:08:10   stuff. [TS]

02:08:11   You can't like you said you can't stop them from making an honest Apple you're never going to you can't get rid of [TS]

02:08:15   anonymity. [TS]

02:08:17   I don't think the solution is to not give people public assets to like to retreat to your compound to keep yourself in [TS]

02:08:24   a circle people [TS]

02:08:24   or you we just need to we need to make a a society in a world that produces fewer of these people who are for this [TS]

02:08:33   angry about these things you know. [TS]

02:08:35   Yeah and I think Marco your point about when you're designing overcast [TS]

02:08:42   when you're designing all the other things you've designed in the past [TS]

02:08:46   and not encouraging that kind of nefarious behavior. [TS]

02:08:50   A lot of times I ask myself or sometimes others [TS]

02:08:53   and I think a lot of good intentioned individuals ask you know what can I really do. [TS]

02:08:59   Well something that may seem a silly but really obviously isn't silly is you doing the right thing [TS]

02:09:04   and trying your best to not encourage nefarious behavior and overcast. That's something that can be done. [TS]

02:09:11   That's what you would the royal you can do is make those decisions and make them intelligently [TS]

02:09:18   and try to do the right thing even if it's a harder thing to do the right thing to prevent this kind of B.S. Behavior. [TS]

02:09:25   You know I mean I don't well I don't know what else to do. [TS]

02:09:27   You know I think I really do think that there is a lot that we can still is a lot of low hanging fruit with the design [TS]

02:09:34   of the systems that we can do to to improve conditions and yet we're not going to reduce problems totally [TS]

02:09:39   but we can we can certainly start to address them and start to reduce their impact [TS]

02:09:44   and start to reduce the incidents the incentive to be problematic on these systems like if Twitter just had some simple [TS]

02:09:49   filters you could set like I am I would love like I would love for you know because I you know whenever I say anything [TS]

02:09:55   remotely controversial I like which tech center I prefer which is. [TS]

02:10:00   More dangerous to discuss than the Palestinian situation. [TS]

02:10:03   Whenever I say anything about text editors I would prefer to have some kind of setting on Twitter where I could say [TS]

02:10:09   like Don't show me any. [TS]

02:10:11   Don't even show my timeline any responses from people who may be I don't follow [TS]

02:10:17   or are not like within two degrees of following or something like that like because sometimes gets really outta hand [TS]

02:10:22   and I can handle it and I can even imagine like if you have if you have a bigger audience or [TS]

02:10:28   and especially like if you're a woman with a big audience [TS]

02:10:30   and you say anything remotely controversial like I can even imagine what like there are there are many people not least [TS]

02:10:38   of which liberties but there are many people out there who would leave a control like that on all the time. [TS]

02:10:44   Yeah I think that's actually an actionable thing that we talk about how you can have a protected account [TS]

02:10:48   or is open to the public and I think that the openness is a strength of Twitter [TS]

02:10:52   but if there was a range between there where that you could say like Margaret said where this is kind of techie [TS]

02:10:59   but like set up a rules that say don't show me replies from someone who doesn't follow me Westy [TS]

02:11:05   or than fifty followers his account was created in the last month like BASIC like Sock Puppet Sock Puppet detection [TS]

02:11:11   or or a Degrees of Separation limit [TS]

02:11:14   or temporary degrees of separation that is you know you just said something controversial like those are controlled you [TS]

02:11:19   can give individuals that is not turning Twitter into like a live journal [TS]

02:11:23   or like some private type thing Twitter is still open but give people control [TS]

02:11:27   and like some of these people have been doing outside the system of like in their community block lists where they will [TS]

02:11:32   sort of pull together their blocks because everyone is blocking the same server [TS]

02:11:36   and then another sockpuppet made us recycle the account and everything like that [TS]

02:11:39   but just to have a communal blacklist that can be shared among people so that if you know of a decent people all band [TS]

02:11:46   together chances are good that one of the decent people on the site was already blocked a stroll so you'll never see [TS]

02:11:51   his tweeting you didn't have to see it in blogger like why are we all individually blocking the same stupid account as [TS]

02:11:55   they wander through saying terrible things to be able to write. If one person to block it we could all benefit. [TS]

02:12:00   Now there are downside to communal blog post as well but this is a type of feature this Twitter supported [TS]

02:12:04   and for was more serious about those type of controls. [TS]

02:12:08   You could make a communal block list there could be a master block list of sock puppets they could like it becomes a [TS]

02:12:13   big thing it becomes a minister has to be part of Twitter stuff anyway like dealing with abuse in the system becomes a [TS]

02:12:18   major part of why anyone who runs any big community site knows suddenly you find out your real job is just spending all [TS]

02:12:23   your time moderating and dealing with trolls and dealing with sock puppets and dealing with hacks [TS]

02:12:27   and stuff like that and that's probably not avoidable [TS]

02:12:30   but you know the low hanging fruit where you could start by making their reporting system for abuse be a lot friendlier [TS]

02:12:38   to the people who are reporting a lot clearer a lot nicer framed in terms of someone who is in crisis not in terms of [TS]

02:12:43   here's a dry clinical form that protects us as a corporation [TS]

02:12:46   and doesn't really make any acknowledgement of what you might be going through return phone from a Holgate in the chat [TS]

02:12:53   room. Apparently Twitter verified accounts which just make me angry. [TS]

02:12:58   Twitter verified accounts already have features I've been talking about. [TS]

02:13:02   Yeah I know that I mentioned talk about on Twitter people why isn't verified something anybody can get it. [TS]

02:13:08   If anybody I like if you liked pay for like whatever it cost Twitter [TS]

02:13:12   and terms like they do you make a profit on whatever it costs them in terms of manpower [TS]

02:13:17   and time like if there is some you know it's not an automatic system like someone has to verify your ID you plan to [TS]

02:13:21   make a phone call that you had sent some of the facts because one hundred ninety one again like whatever you have that [TS]

02:13:27   these people do get verified checkmark [TS]

02:13:28   but it's not on demand so a lot of these people who are getting all this abuse the trolls make fake accounts [TS]

02:13:34   and pretend to be them [TS]

02:13:35   and then the people the angry people get really angry all over again because they believe a fake tweet really can't [TS]

02:13:39   happen to be understood. [TS]

02:13:41   They kick out with their mate or say something terrible and she got attacked in fifty different directions. Right. [TS]

02:13:46   Why does she not have a verified checkmark. [TS]

02:13:48   Because she's not important because she can't control it she should be able to call her on the phone [TS]

02:13:51   and say here's one hundred bucks verify my Democrat I'll send you like ids [TS]

02:13:55   and stuff like that that is an example of another piece of low hanging fruit. Anybody should be able to get. [TS]

02:14:00   If they are willing to pay to take the time and money. [TS]

02:14:02   I mean if you want to because you're like oh that that cuts out people four hundred dollars [TS]

02:14:05   or whatever like there's two ways Twitter can just be more proactive realizing what this person is under onslaught [TS]

02:14:10   given the stupid verified checkmark don't charge them for it but they're not they're dropping the ball on that [TS]

02:14:15   and there's no there's no way you can request verification [TS]

02:14:18   and actually get it because you know you can say I've been impersonated I've been attacked look at all these people [TS]

02:14:22   that I'm blocking look at my daily activity can I get a verified check mark and you get nothing from Twitter. [TS]

02:14:26   So it is insane to those people don't have verified check marks and the reporting system is stupid and broken [TS]

02:14:32   and this is before we get to the things that you were talking about of like having those type of controls about seeing [TS]

02:14:36   replies and having sock puppet the text [TS]

02:14:38   and all the type of things anybody who is like you know does anything with big data like I feel like it's so easy for [TS]

02:14:45   humans to detect sock puppets and trolls. I think if you just get a really good job too. [TS]

02:14:50   Yeah I want one more item before every phone of this topic. [TS]

02:14:53   Someone some of the chat room is complaining like you know it isn't OK to dislike any of us our T.V. [TS]

02:14:58   and Who's in the presence talked about feminism shoes and sexism in games you know. Can I can I dislike or whatever. [TS]

02:15:05   Fine right and I was like I just happen to believe that she's a snake oil salesman who is lying to us [TS]

02:15:10   and lot of law so I'm putting one more link in the show. [TS]

02:15:13   Here it is this is not a conspiracy theory it's ongoing video series that I think is only about two parts so far. [TS]

02:15:20   It's by who was it by you guys [TS]

02:15:22   and I was the guy guided everything's Remax Kirby FERGUSON Yeah so I think this is like a funding thing. [TS]

02:15:29   I paid for it where we had to pay were needed to kick start [TS]

02:15:31   or whatever so I'm seeing the new things that they release I'm assuming you'll be able to see all of them eventually [TS]

02:15:36   once this is all over. But anyway consider funding at the really good I think you can see the first part for free. [TS]

02:15:43   The reason I put this in there is there is a very long long long history of this is something as an engineering major I [TS]

02:15:50   kind of I'm saying this [TS]

02:15:51   but like if I can make everyone in the entire world take one sort of major in a college education I would make [TS]

02:15:56   everybody learn about history because everything you know it's a cliche to say it. [TS]

02:16:00   If you know anything about history how can you not see the same things happening as people [TS]

02:16:04   but haven't changed that much invest in thousand years or so anyway. [TS]

02:16:07   Conspiracy theories have a long [TS]

02:16:08   and illustrious history there readily explainable obvious reasons why people love the people love conspiracy theories [TS]

02:16:15   people fall into very they believe them with every fiber of their being and it is just part of the human condition [TS]

02:16:22   and yet [TS]

02:16:22   when people are in the midst of a conspiracy theory like that there is a giant cabal of feminists who are controlling [TS]

02:16:28   the gaming industry and it's our T.V. and Is stealing money from people and getting rich and selling snake oil. [TS]

02:16:34   These crazy conspiracy theories which everyone else is crazy seem perfectly rational to a lot of people so I feel like [TS]

02:16:39   rather than attacking that issue head on. [TS]

02:16:41   If you just learn about the history of conspiracy theories and how they work with the human mind [TS]

02:16:44   and society you will eventually I have to feel at the end of all that perhaps reexamine what you believe about whatever [TS]

02:16:53   conspiracy theory you happen to believe [TS]

02:16:54   and so on it's really entertaining video series even if doesn't change your mind about any of this to watch it [TS]

02:16:59   and find it because it's good. [TS]

02:17:01   It's sick to me that we start to talk about this [TS]

02:17:04   but I'm glad we have I tried it like I could talk about it every week [TS]

02:17:07   and I tweet about it all the time to us just like now we have to do something [TS]

02:17:14   and talking about it is one of those things I don't know I'm not complaining. [TS]

02:17:17   The tech show I know people will complain but like we saved it for the after show. [TS]

02:17:21   Honestly this could have been a quote official topic we just didn't get to it until we have to [TS]

02:17:27   but I mean it is an important story in our industry like this is not this is just as valid of a topic as what we think [TS]

02:17:33   of the new i Macin all that crap and this is more important than everything that we had as real topics tonight. [TS]

02:17:40   There's not this is not a how to make the world a better place podcast but where in the world to. [TS]