The Accidental Tech Podcast

98: Landmines, Pitfalls, and Bottomless Pits


00:00:00   Happy New Year and stuff. And happy birthday John Syracuse the forty years old house a feel to be an old man John. [TS]

00:00:06   On my birthday today. It's That's person I'm a spoken to you since your birthday it's close enough. [TS]

00:00:10   Beginning the year with a technicality. So we have some follow up. Let's talk about John's. [TS]

00:00:18   I was ten app window layering policy. Yeah shouldn. [TS]

00:00:21   I shouldn't a little bit of research of this but I'll have you do the real time research for me so I [TS]

00:00:26   and our discussion. Like episode. A couple episodes ago about Windows and window. [TS]

00:00:32   Management stuff like that one of the things that didn't come up that probably should have was the Austin window [TS]

00:00:39   layering policy now. When you get Austin. If you've only ever used Austin. [TS]

00:00:44   You probably just accept this as the way things work because it's sort of like how Windows works. [TS]

00:00:48   As and capital W Microsoft Windows. [TS]

00:00:51   You've got a bunch one doesn't screen if you click on a window that window comes to the front. [TS]

00:00:55   And it comes and then you click another window in that window comes to the front of the other ones [TS]

00:00:58   and you know that it changes when a letter and changes in that way. [TS]

00:01:02   I know it's ten if you click on the dock icon all windows from that application come to the front right [TS]

00:01:07   and this is again if you've only ever used always thank you I guess what that's just how everything works. [TS]

00:01:12   And there are menu commands for hide others and. You can option click on something to hide. [TS]

00:01:18   The previous thing to show the new thing and there's also it's a shortcut like about the people now [TS]

00:01:22   but basically plain old unadorned click just brings it whenever to the front [TS]

00:01:25   and the the doc like brings all the windows the apt. Now back in the olden days. If my memory serves correctly. [TS]

00:01:33   When you clicked on the window. All the windows blowing into the application. Them to the front. [TS]

00:01:38   So it was sort of the opposite of the behavior in a less tent where a special collect in this case a click on a dock [TS]

00:01:44   icon brings in all the front but a plain old regular click just brings the. The particular window. Now. [TS]

00:01:50   Since I am and old person as we've already established. And I come from the old school Macworld. [TS]

00:01:56   When I was ten it came out. I didn't like the fact that when I click the single window. [TS]

00:02:00   Only that window can't with the front end because my window arranging habits and have been built up over years [TS]

00:02:05   and years of using a regular Macin classic my cos I was used to the idea of being able to pull the windows of an [TS]

00:02:12   application forward by snagging a corner of one of the windows and then they would all come to the front [TS]

00:02:17   and sort of be like to lair policy writes Now you Klara visible window [TS]

00:02:20   and then within all the windows of that application which are now visible take on that I wanted because they'd be tiled [TS]

00:02:24   according to you know whatever. And so the whole much utilities that came out for us ten. [TS]

00:02:31   In the early days of us tend to let you switch this policy to make it so regular click brings all the windows of the [TS]

00:02:36   front and a modifier click. Does the other behavior. [TS]

00:02:39   And I use lots of those utilities over the years I think the want to music now is. [TS]

00:02:44   I'm still using Ask them which was supposed to give you an application switcher menu which is like a classic macro us [TS]

00:02:49   thing in the upper right corner of the screen I think that part doesn't work anymore even if it does I have a disabled. [TS]

00:02:54   I just have the. You know they call it classic window. Setting set on. [TS]

00:03:00   And Shift key is the suppression key so if I click. Any Safari window. [TS]

00:03:05   All the Safari windows come to the front [TS]

00:03:06   and if I click any terminal window all the terminal in those come to the front. But if I shift click. [TS]

00:03:12   A window only that window comes to the front. [TS]

00:03:15   And I'm not saying one of these policies is the right one [TS]

00:03:18   or the wrong one because I think both behaviors are useful it's just a question of which one do you think should be the [TS]

00:03:22   default. [TS]

00:03:24   And the defaults are really the matter that much either I suppose I could have got used to just going down to the dock [TS]

00:03:28   I'm clicking but I was just so used to arranging my Windows [TS]

00:03:31   and using them as these big quick areas to do stuff that this is one of the few sort of classic macro S. [TS]

00:03:38   Policies that I still haven't given up. [TS]

00:03:41   I guess it's probably like a little bit of a system have to do this when they're learning. [TS]

00:03:45   Not a really big system hack. [TS]

00:03:46   I think drag thing also either had are still has this feature and there may be other utilities to do it [TS]

00:03:51   and it may be like a global P. [TS]

00:03:53   Listing I don't even know what this thing is doing whether it's us back or not but anyway. [TS]

00:03:57   If my window management sounded strange doing you've only ever used the last ten. [TS]

00:04:02   That may be a piece of information you're missing. [TS]

00:04:04   And I would imagine that both of you have never done this or use any or Teles like this [TS]

00:04:09   and would probably drive you crazy if you could get a single window and they all came to the front from that app. Yup. [TS]

00:04:14   If you tried it's actually kind of neat. I mean you obviously do have to adjust your habits. [TS]

00:04:19   Because you're not losing the ability to do the other thing you just have to you know shift quicker option quicker [TS]

00:04:23   whatever. Modifier quick you decide to make it but it does change the way things work it makes. [TS]

00:04:28   I think it makes the way I manage windows. A little bit more viable. [TS]

00:04:32   Like I think it's the correct the fault for the way I manage windows. [TS]

00:04:36   Problem maybe not the correct the faulty earth [TS]

00:04:38   but a lot of people have emailed them to eat at me since that show to say they were intrigued by my. [TS]

00:04:45   My theories and like has grabbed my newsletter. [TS]

00:04:49   Are trying out different him and I didn't have a chance to respond to most. [TS]

00:04:54   People sent in e-mails and tweets saying they wanted to try but what I felt like telling them is. [TS]

00:04:59   If you're going to try it. [TS]

00:05:01   You may not know this [TS]

00:05:01   but here is the setting that I have had on my mac since the dawn of a tent you probably don't have [TS]

00:05:06   and I think it's probably essential to the way I work. [TS]

00:05:09   The other thing I saw a lot of requests for was a screenshot of your mac and. [TS]

00:05:16   I'm assuming people wanted perhaps like an exposé screen shot so they could see the eleven gives Illian windows that [TS]

00:05:22   you have open and. [TS]

00:05:23   I don't want to necessarily formally request that because you would probably have to obscure a bunch of things [TS]

00:05:30   but should you decide that you would like to share that I'm sure the world at large would love to see it. [TS]

00:05:36   Yeah there were requests [TS]

00:05:37   but I can't I mean I can't explain shots of my screen because all my stuff is on my screen I don't want to go through [TS]

00:05:41   blanket all the windows and in the end it just looks like a bunch of windows. Like there's nothing to see. [TS]

00:05:46   To you'd maybe write to you and that's all looks like then it's like. Why don't you set a vid. [TS]

00:05:50   Make a video it's like well then again. And a video. [TS]

00:05:53   You'd be seeing all my stuff I don't show you all my stuff all my email my pads that I have a mess of like that. [TS]

00:05:59   But on the feedback front of how much you've been following the feedback and I [TS]

00:06:02   but I tried to be vaguely scientific with following the feedback. [TS]

00:06:06   And I had to say all the feedback that has come directly to me. [TS]

00:06:08   Mostly through tweets [TS]

00:06:09   but also through email that's not to the listening is been overwhelmingly positive in terms of people saying yes that's [TS]

00:06:16   exactly how I work all the old mac users and in those emails yes. Yes you're right that's how I work too. [TS]

00:06:22   And then the curious people who are like I never thought of the organ that way [TS]

00:06:24   but it sounds interesting to me very little negativity about it which is surprising is there how negative you to where [TS]

00:06:32   I keep going back to the idea that. How many windows was it in Safari. [TS]

00:06:37   One thousand or something like that that was astronomical. Like a that I might as well have said ten thousand. [TS]

00:06:43   So they were actually nineteen when to just not that much [TS]

00:06:47   and I thought maybe I'm crazy maybe not you wonder there's a lot of that everyone's like you kidding me. [TS]

00:06:51   I have always have tons of windows open to play. It's like having me. [TS]

00:06:55   Having if you have like thirty two gigs of RAM [TS]

00:06:56   but you keep for windows open perhaps it's like Anyway I don't want to rehash the entire thing that it's probably [TS]

00:07:03   better than whatever we have planned today. [TS]

00:07:05   Maybe you have gotten different feedback and I have [TS]

00:07:07   but I have been very surprised it is been overwhelmingly essentially on my side well. [TS]

00:07:12   Whether you know decisively on my side like yes exactly how I do things and it's the one way you do things [TS]

00:07:17   or people saying that sounds interesting I like to try it. [TS]

00:07:20   OK so the feedback I've seen the feedback I've seen there has certainly been some and. [TS]

00:07:25   I shouldn't even say some a pretty decent amount of people saying. Yes that's exactly what I do. [TS]

00:07:32   The John approach is exactly what I do. [TS]

00:07:36   But most the overwhelming majority feedback that I saw was my goodness that was hysterical. [TS]

00:07:43   That was my favorite episode of A.T.P. [TS]

00:07:45   So far so for all of you who said that yes that's very nice of yeah I like it [TS]

00:07:48   but you can't categorize that because most of that was just like Hey I enjoy watching the parking lot was like great [TS]

00:07:52   thumbs up. [TS]

00:07:52   But it's not like they're not taking a side or position around that thing on the substance of it [TS]

00:07:56   and yes I did see a lot of [TS]

00:07:57   but I don't categorize that what I did was I favored it as as a form of tracking all the ones that were all the tweets [TS]

00:08:03   they were sent to me about it so if you go back to my favorites [TS]

00:08:05   and skip over the other stuff looks like it's not related like. [TS]

00:08:08   I don't know if you can do this and to Twitter but scroll back to like the the week following the show [TS]

00:08:12   and just look at the huge amount of favorites that are in there. And I favor the ones that are against as well and. [TS]

00:08:18   You'll have a hard time finding a tweet Anyway that was against [TS]

00:08:21   and the email to feed off from has also on the email directly to me was basically a hundred percent. [TS]

00:08:27   That people thought it was not created have one thousand windows open and by the way I will add [TS]

00:08:31   and this is another things. People seem to forget. Like the idea. [TS]

00:08:34   But I'm not closing windows as I think I said on the show as I think I'd actually did a real time on the show. [TS]

00:08:40   We're going through like up like encloses wonder now because I'm done researching like the date that these things are [TS]

00:08:44   released or whatever the windows closed when I'm done with them so I'm keeping them around. Like for the hell of it. [TS]

00:08:50   Right [TS]

00:08:50   and so for example I have to Safari windows open that why do I have to Safari one is open to the been off for like a [TS]

00:08:55   week. And I've been at home and everything is cleared out. [TS]

00:08:58   And the only support windows open I have never in our stats windows that are sort of things that I'm currently [TS]

00:09:03   monitoring and even those will close [TS]

00:09:05   and I'm not currently monitoring them are like I'm still looking at the stats on my tender view just to see. [TS]

00:09:10   As it slowly. Tails off in the long tail. How it's doing it anyway. And chrome windows. [TS]

00:09:18   To minimize three non minimizing the minimized ones or yeah. [TS]

00:09:22   Using as a sort of like the Marlin manual here in boxes a To Do List which is a bad idea using Safari windows has the [TS]

00:09:29   to do list probably also bad idea. But I think it works pretty well. [TS]

00:09:34   And the difference between your email inbox [TS]

00:09:36   and Safari is your email inbox is subject to anything that I want to send to you. [TS]

00:09:41   Where is your Safari windows you have to open yourself. [TS]

00:09:45   All those the other before we get off the top to go here just me thinks a sick. River did a post some time. [TS]

00:09:50   The week after saying he'd had this tab open source. [TS]

00:09:52   Since October to remind him to read his article in the family got around to it of any post a little linguist. [TS]

00:09:57   Thing on during fireball. [TS]

00:09:58   And everyone jumped on him and said You're using a circular winter technique to because he essentially had this window. [TS]

00:10:04   How did the Windows thing open a tab like I'll get around to it some day and he did. [TS]

00:10:08   And I bet any read it and he posted it nobody close that window. It's either I can't I can't I can't do it. [TS]

00:10:15   I'm not going to let myself get roped into this again. [TS]

00:10:18   So instead of move on to another piece of follow up unless Marco you have something to add. Nope. All right. [TS]

00:10:23   How do you add to that. Yeah exactly. So I. The next we fall of we have. [TS]

00:10:28   I brought up the question I believe was last episode. Why would you run S.S.L. [TS]

00:10:33   On a site like a solicitor com that all it does is display content. And then many people wrote in with what. [TS]

00:10:41   In retrospect was a reasonably obvious answer that I certainly didn't think of which is your. You could use S.S.L. [TS]

00:10:49   To prevent injections. So say you're on an airplane and you're using one of the airplane wife I set ups. [TS]

00:10:56   They could choose to inject ads. Into my website because they can. [TS]

00:11:02   There's no reason they couldn't whereas if I was running up to sell there's nothing they could do to intercept that [TS]

00:11:07   and. [TS]

00:11:08   There's also a bunch of like tinfoil hat conspiracy theories that go along with that [TS]

00:11:12   but the most obvious one that I saw are the most reasonable one I saw was preventing like an injection [TS]

00:11:19   or any other sort of man in the middle sort of scenario. [TS]

00:11:22   With even something that's brochure where so to speak like my site is. Yeah what's even worse. [TS]

00:11:27   Is some wireless carriers are starting to inject ad tracking codes [TS]

00:11:32   or like actually it's into the pages themselves so it isn't just if you're on a plane occasionally you might just be [TS]

00:11:39   like if you're any team here prizing customer like that we've seen. Certain things I don't. [TS]

00:11:44   If there was a deployed yet but we've seen reports of like them rolling out [TS]

00:11:48   or testing were like trying certain things a certain wireless carriers like injecting ad tracking code into every [TS]

00:11:54   H.T.M.L. Pages viewed over the over their data networks and that's really really horrible on so many levels and this. [TS]

00:12:00   So this could also help defend against that. That's not to like people send a screenshot that I didn't. [TS]

00:12:06   I didn't over the don't travel a lot of that like that airline why five like when you're on the plane [TS]

00:12:10   but you know Southwest banner over every single page that you're on like this is not this is not speculative this is [TS]

00:12:16   apparently a thing that happens and not unlike a senior kind of like Arisan secretly putting an H.T.T.P. Header. [TS]

00:12:21   Because he [TS]

00:12:22   or something as in a giant banner for like in case you didn't realize that you're on a Southwest flight right now. [TS]

00:12:27   Terrible super terrible. The idea that if you use a cell that no one can. [TS]

00:12:33   You know and can see the traffic or man in the middle you again with lots of unpatched. [TS]

00:12:38   Perhaps unknown vulnerabilities out there I'm not sure how secure that is [TS]

00:12:43   but I can tell you that in the corporate world it is not uncommon for corporations to either. [TS]

00:12:50   Do this and not tell anybody or do it and tell everybody [TS]

00:12:53   or try to do it until the employees revolt depending on what kind of company you're in to basically man in the middle. [TS]

00:12:58   Every single employee of the company by putting in an S.S.L. Proxy making every computer in the company. [TS]

00:13:05   Trust the certificate. And they're basically and then the middling all your S.S.L. [TS]

00:13:08   Traffic so you can like do online banking from home. [TS]

00:13:11   Unless you're not unless you're OK with the ID department at your work knowing all of your passwords [TS]

00:13:16   and everything so as a cell is not a panacea. Excellent. [TS]

00:13:22   And then a final notes which may bleed from Follow up into an actual topic. [TS]

00:13:28   Marco you have reverted to your normal comfortable ways [TS]

00:13:31   and you hate new things again can you tell us about that we are sponsored this week by Harry's go to Harry's dot com [TS]

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00:16:20   For five bucks off the first purchase Thanks a lot there is so Marco tell us about why you hate new things again. [TS]

00:16:25   Other than that being your natural state. So last week I discussed that I had tried a new programming language sort of. [TS]

00:16:34   I had written. Beginnings of a feed crawler for to replace overcast P.H.P. Feed crawler to augment it. [TS]

00:16:42   I had written the beginnings of that. Inode. And I already knew. [TS]

00:16:46   You know enough javascript to get by so it wasn't entirely learning a new language. [TS]

00:16:50   But it was at least in a new context using a new platform and stuff like that and for some certainly using javascript. [TS]

00:16:57   Outside of the browser. I have been trying to make it work. [TS]

00:17:01   Really until today and this afternoon I think I finally am giving up now. [TS]

00:17:05   The problem I was trying to solve a mention last week so I won't go through it too far into it is that overcast feed [TS]

00:17:10   crawlers basically have to pull. About two hundred fifty thousand feeds now. And I like to pull them no. [TS]

00:17:19   No less than once an hour. Each. And the ones are popular and to pull over a few minutes. So we're talking about. [TS]

00:17:25   Probably I don't know a million feeds an hour. Something like that or more than that me maybe. [TS]

00:17:30   So it's a good number of like feed fetches per hour. And right now. I use two hundred forty P.H.P. [TS]

00:17:38   Processes that are crawling think they're pulling things off of the stalk you it takes tons of C.P.U. [TS]

00:17:43   Power takes tons of RAM you have the [TS]

00:17:45   and it's you know this is I was not made for this word like the node event loop kind of model is way better suited for [TS]

00:17:52   this kind of like large parallel crawling of network things [TS]

00:17:56   and then you know keep on doing some work on them like it's. It's way better for that so much better suited for that. [TS]

00:18:01   Anyway so I tried node and I have been playing with that for the last week or so [TS]

00:18:06   and I just can't get it to work properly I I have the crawler functioning perfectly fine. [TS]

00:18:13   But I keep hitting either weird limits. That cause we're performance issues or. [TS]

00:18:17   The more common problem is memory leaks. [TS]

00:18:19   And that's the one that I've been able to solve all the performance problems all the weird. [TS]

00:18:23   You know little edge cases all of the weird exceptions thrown from odd places that I can't quite figure out a couple [TS]

00:18:29   for fixed all that. I still can't fix memory leaks and. [TS]

00:18:34   So well you know I could just like post a script on line and ask people Hey victim really for me [TS]

00:18:39   but ultimately I don't want to depend on a platform that seems so weird and hacky [TS]

00:18:46   and what I what I found you know last week I mentioned how I didn't foresee myself rewriting the whole back and [TS]

00:18:52   or wanted to make a whole web app inode. Just because of like the nature of Web Apps. [TS]

00:18:56   You know you make a data is your question the new. [TS]

00:18:58   You know makes couple more in the new put things together like doing all that in a pure asynchronous for a framework is [TS]

00:19:05   really clumsy. [TS]

00:19:06   Clumsy and it leads to all sorts of spaghetti code and callback hell and everything like that and so I [TS]

00:19:11   and not only that but I just don't like Javascript like. [TS]

00:19:13   I really don't respect it as a language I really don't like it's crazy object system. [TS]

00:19:18   There's a whole lot about javascript that I really don't like. Granted. [TS]

00:19:21   This is a little early for me to judge a whole language like this but it certainly seems like node and Javascript.. [TS]

00:19:27   You know that combo. Is really just as happy as P.H.P. In many ways and. [TS]

00:19:35   It seems like I'm taking a step sideways rather than a step forward. [TS]

00:19:38   And I don't have a lot of faith in this combo for the future of my programming. Needs and career. So instead. [TS]

00:19:49   Tonight I started trying go. And I want to see how that goes I have literally have. [TS]

00:19:53   I've written like ten lines of code [TS]

00:19:54   and so far haven't a chance to anymore so maybe ask me next week how that's going but. [TS]

00:19:59   And the reason I'm picking go right now to try next. It seems like the kind of thing that I would enjoy. [TS]

00:20:07   Based on their philosophies some of the decisions they've made. [TS]

00:20:10   I mean obviously the language actually weird to make a dozen You see thousand texture everything and you know it's. [TS]

00:20:14   This is the first non-SI syntax languages. I thought I'm learning in a very very long time. [TS]

00:20:18   I used to say that if I had to pick a new language today. It would be Python. [TS]

00:20:23   And looking around the landscape today I think that would still be a reasonable choice [TS]

00:20:28   but there's no question that Python is aging. [TS]

00:20:31   And there's always new languages that are coming out the do things differently. [TS]

00:20:35   That are more advanced in certain ways and. [TS]

00:20:39   I feel like you know I learn new languages so infrequently [TS]

00:20:42   and the way I do it is I prefer to like really deeply master of a very small number of them rather than try a whole [TS]

00:20:48   bunch of them and have some familiarity with all them. Because of that I'm afraid that Python will fall out of favor. [TS]

00:20:55   Sooner. By. You know possibly as much as a decade. [TS]

00:20:58   Then you know compared something like go or node or roster or any of these newer languages. [TS]

00:21:04   I could go that route and I might still get it right I don't know. We will see where this experiment and. [TS]

00:21:09   But I think what I'm doing right now. [TS]

00:21:11   You know making this thing that has to crawl a whole bunch of feeds in parallel and then. [TS]

00:21:14   You know read stuff out of the database know what to crawl [TS]

00:21:16   and then write stuff into some kind of queue to hand it off to the rest of the app to do the rest of the processing. [TS]

00:21:21   I'm getting a pretty good feel like I think this might be a good task to try. In three or four different languages. [TS]

00:21:29   And just get some idea of like. [TS]

00:21:31   You know what languages like to use on this kind of scale and how appropriate is it for this kind of task. [TS]

00:21:36   Right now my try this and go I don't know if it's going to last longer use for this task. I hope it is. I like the way. [TS]

00:21:43   Go. Keeps the language itself seemingly fairly simple. It doesn't have to like generics. [TS]

00:21:49   And a whole bunch of like new things like that that like all these like metaprogramming type features it doesn't seem [TS]

00:21:55   to have all those things I like that a lot. [TS]

00:21:56   I really prefer a language that can fit in my head and a language that is easy to as easy to read. As it is to write. [TS]

00:22:05   And it seems like a lot of the new languages these are throwing that balance a little more towards the directions of [TS]

00:22:11   they're making it they're making all these like really really crazy little features little exceptions little communes [TS]

00:22:16   is to make the code look really cool when you're writing it or or to make it make really good conference wides [TS]

00:22:22   or like a good. [TS]

00:22:23   Hello world example really look at look at it look at what you can do in these two lines of code [TS]

00:22:28   and it's all really dense and concise and do those cool things that I'm struck to weigh what's actually happening. [TS]

00:22:33   You know Globe scenes. And I don't like that style because it makes it very hard to both learn and maintain. [TS]

00:22:39   I mean that code. [TS]

00:22:40   That's not that's not a style that's abstraction that's programming then why not just [TS]

00:22:45   when I use title switches then you'll know what's going on [TS]

00:22:46   when I run from from the source of the drain in the transistors I mean like. [TS]

00:22:52   I kind of understand what you're getting at in terms of constructs that may look unfamiliar [TS]

00:22:57   but it's not like it's not a choice of styles like rain technique and drunken monkey deck make it's like. [TS]

00:23:05   The miners that are trying to have you know. [TS]

00:23:07   Ways to express more with with less typing and the general argument in favor of that is history has more [TS]

00:23:15   or less shown that the number of bugs per line of code written. Doesn't change too much. [TS]

00:23:20   So the only way to get your bugs is to reduce the number of lines of code you need to write to solve a given problem [TS]

00:23:27   obviously you can go to extremes there where your compressing things down to the point where it's not understandable [TS]

00:23:33   that I don't think swift. Likes. [TS]

00:23:35   So it is not a good example of that I don't think anything in the language makes it like this one line is [TS]

00:23:41   incomprehensible I think the problem there is a swifter more like the problem areas of C. [TS]

00:23:44   Plus plus but like templates generics and operator overloading giving you the ability to make incomprehensible. [TS]

00:23:52   Mumbo jumbo but that's the opposite that's where there's more typing not less like when you [TS]

00:23:56   when you see some giant declaration with a million generic types. [TS]

00:24:00   And then you can make heads or tails of it that is not concise that is verbose [TS]

00:24:04   and that's why you have problems problems figure with else going on because you've got to parse a million tokens to [TS]

00:24:08   figure it out. Whereas go. [TS]

00:24:10   Not letting you do that type of thing you're never going to see the crazy prototype like that here and you know [TS]

00:24:14   or even like blocks in packs or pointers to functions and syntax [TS]

00:24:19   and see where you have to like sort of be the compiler in your head [TS]

00:24:22   and parse stuff out make the language simple you won't see that [TS]

00:24:24   and that's something that you know for example Javascript has that going for it not. [TS]

00:24:28   There's not much you can type in javascript that is too complicated to look at where you won't even understand [TS]

00:24:33   programmer intent you may be surprised by what it actually does because of weirdness but you will get the intent. [TS]

00:24:39   The line of code where is and C. [TS]

00:24:41   Plus plus and swift and a lot of other languages sometimes you can hear what the intent is that without sort of. [TS]

00:24:46   You know parsing it like seeing yourself in your head to figure out what does exactly it will and also like. I'll It's. [TS]

00:24:52   I like to look at at some code that I'm reading [TS]

00:24:56   and be able to roughly tell what it does without having to jump around too much other code. [TS]

00:25:00   And so if you have some crazy library or some crazy standard. [TS]

00:25:04   You know like a lot of these new language features that a lot that a lot of the more crazy dynamic languages. Offer. [TS]

00:25:11   There are a lot like C. Macros. Where it's like you could. You could define your own. [TS]

00:25:15   And you know sending an operator allowance of a delay and generics. [TS]

00:25:18   You could define like your own metalanguage on top of this language for your own code. And so if. [TS]

00:25:23   If you if you're reading someone else's code written this language. [TS]

00:25:26   Or you reading code you wrote a year ago in this language when you're being a little too clever. [TS]

00:25:30   It can be really hard to figure out what's going on [TS]

00:25:32   or what cause a certain behavior seeing that's one the reasons I don't like rails. [TS]

00:25:36   And one of the reasons I avoid back forever ago. Why David and I decided to write tumblr in P.H.P. Instead of rails. [TS]

00:25:42   Was the Had a lot of that like like the mix and like a lot of the like behavior caused by things that are hard to find. [TS]

00:25:48   And I'm sure it isn't like that anymore I don't know we'll look at it. We live. [TS]

00:25:52   I literally we look at it once in two thousand and six for about a month. [TS]

00:25:56   So tape take all that with a grain of salt [TS]

00:25:58   but generally I don't like having all that magic that's hard to find it hard to follow when you're reading the code [TS]

00:26:05   or when you debugging the code. That's why I like Lang languages like C. and Like Objective C. [TS]

00:26:09   Because most of that magic is not possible or at least as very very rarely used. [TS]

00:26:15   You said [TS]

00:26:16   and say it's macros macros make that a nightmare it looking at someone the I mean to give a great example try looking [TS]

00:26:22   at the Perl source code not like you know perl code but the C. Program that is the Perl compiler. Futebol. [TS]

00:26:30   It is so filled with macros. It is almost nonsensical and macro people don't like macros for it with good reason. [TS]

00:26:36   But if you take macros and take away all of the evil. Sort of text processing. Crap about them. [TS]

00:26:41   What falls out as list and people love lists and that list means you know [TS]

00:26:45   when you said if you look at a program it looks like you know some metaprogramming can't figure out. [TS]

00:26:49   That's why people love lists that you're centrally define a language to solve your specific problem [TS]

00:26:53   and then use that language. To to write your program and. And so the whole idea of Lisp is that you will. [TS]

00:27:00   There is no sin taxes speak of as just you know. Fingernail clippings all the way down. [TS]

00:27:05   And you just sort of the find your own vocabulary. [TS]

00:27:09   And if someone else has a look at that yes they would have to say I don't know this does not I mean that's that's true [TS]

00:27:13   Vulcan any program it's kind of weird to hear you say that because you're working with like vast libraries of millions [TS]

00:27:18   of lines of code that you A didn't write and B. Usually don't even have access to the source code to. [TS]

00:27:23   And that's the majority of the code in your program. I get over getting out of and. The problem I have is that. [TS]

00:27:28   Marco All I'm hearing you say is I want to remain a C. Program or for life. And that's OK. [TS]

00:27:34   If that's what you want to do. But like you grumbling about generics which I know is just like an off the cuff example. [TS]

00:27:42   But you grumbling about generics is is nails on a chalkboard to me because I love generics Now a lot of generics. I do. [TS]

00:27:51   And now I'm coming at this for I'm coming at this from C. Sharp. [TS]

00:27:54   Where it's very mild and generics came to see sharp at a time [TS]

00:28:00   when everything was extremely strongly typed type inference wasn't a thing. And you had to cast. [TS]

00:28:09   Everything all the time. And it was the most annoying thing in the world. [TS]

00:28:13   And to me generics are being extremely deliberates about what you're trying to accomplish. And. [TS]

00:28:23   I just when you say when you say that oh you don't. [TS]

00:28:26   You don't feel like all the codes where you expected to be in have to jump around in different files to find it all. [TS]

00:28:32   All I'm hearing you say is I want to be a procedural C. Programmer for the rest of my life. And that's OK. [TS]

00:28:37   But gosh that's so limiting and I hope that that's. [TS]

00:28:41   I hope that's not what you're what you mean even if that's what I'm hearing you say. [TS]

00:28:45   No I mean that isn't what I mean however. You know like the languages I know I've either. Either they work this way or. [TS]

00:28:51   I've been able to make them work this way. What a my. [TS]

00:28:54   My goal is ease of ease of reading the code and simplicity of keeping things small reducing cleverness. [TS]

00:29:02   I am not a very clever programmer. I program things in pretty straightforward way is usually. [TS]

00:29:08   All the crease of cleverness that is that is infecting modern language design. [TS]

00:29:14   It makes things look cool up front but it makes that really hard to use over time or with a team or with [TS]

00:29:20   when maintaining code and. It's Or when using third party code. It gets very very difficult. [TS]

00:29:26   I feel like a lot of this is complexity for its own sake. Or solving the wrong problems. [TS]

00:29:31   Well but your problem here is not a language problem. It's kind of a library problem. [TS]

00:29:36   And it's mostly an implementation problem because like you have all the fun problems solved. [TS]

00:29:41   I don't think a language matters at all that matters is the libraries [TS]

00:29:44   and the sort of stability of the implementation of that language [TS]

00:29:47   and can it handle because you're doing things in a fairly large scale and. You've got something that works. [TS]

00:29:51   But it's kind of around the creepy edges of what P.H.P. [TS]

00:29:55   Can handle [TS]

00:29:56   and it's not particularly efficient as you saw we need to the node implementation it could be more efficient than the [TS]

00:30:00   node is young and it's flaky and has its own issues and. You know. [TS]

00:30:04   So like yours what you're looking for is something that will work with fewer with less like an S. [TS]

00:30:10   The node had fewer resources than P.H.P. [TS]

00:30:13   Did and so I think go is a reasonable thing to be looking at it as I said on Twitter and I wasn't actually joking like. [TS]

00:30:19   If you want to do this in par with any event which is a wrapper around. [TS]

00:30:23   Tons of event to libraries you could do that use the. And even wrap around the Evie. Libby via library. [TS]

00:30:30   I think it would be fairly straightforward and so would you would your pearls Lucian. [TS]

00:30:34   Be used your resources then the P.H.P. One. [TS]

00:30:38   Probably because it would use a real event library written [TS]

00:30:41   and see what it have fewer bugs in the node one probably because that library that C. Band module. [TS]

00:30:47   Are all way more mature than the notable nation of it. But go would definitely be faster. [TS]

00:30:52   But when you are you doing go you're left with OK well. [TS]

00:30:55   Am I going to use an existing event library am I going to sort of write my own event library because once you sort of [TS]

00:31:00   writing your own event library and go. [TS]

00:31:03   You know if you're not going to use live event or Libby the [TS]

00:31:05   or something like that then that's a media the worse it doesn't matter how good languages like no don't. Don't use. [TS]

00:31:11   Don't don't try to reimplement your own event library or. [TS]

00:31:14   You know directly with system calls into it like someone did that already what you just want to language that exposes. [TS]

00:31:20   One of these mature libraries there works really well in a way that's not buggy it doesn't leak memory that's fairly [TS]

00:31:25   performance [TS]

00:31:25   and so I would obvious a drive pro for us because I know there's a bunch of event library wrappers in fact there's a [TS]

00:31:30   rapper that wraps like pretty much any event library called any event. [TS]

00:31:34   And so you could go through like let me try seven different libraries with the same program [TS]

00:31:38   and if they all suck you like well that didn't work you know I haven't done a vent [TS]

00:31:43   or been programming apparel anything more than like a trivial thing so I can't tell you whether it will actually work [TS]

00:31:47   but I can tell you that it's old enough [TS]

00:31:49   and been around long enough that there's a million wrappers for about libraries [TS]

00:31:52   and maybe that would help you narrow down which event library you want to use [TS]

00:31:54   and then you can just write against that one and see what your He's also talked about. [TS]

00:31:57   Hey let me go to live and then let me read it right against it and see. [TS]

00:32:01   But I've also heard that live event is not the best event library if you're looking to do that so with alarm work it [TS]

00:32:06   was just saying that he wrote it I'm Jack of zero. Wrap around Libby v to do something similar. Yeah. [TS]

00:32:12   I think that's what's going to come down to. [TS]

00:32:14   Is there the language has something like this built in his company to mention Erling [TS]

00:32:18   or whatever like has some sort of parallelization event the type of take making efficient use of C.P.U. [TS]

00:32:24   when You're going to when a lot of things are going to be an IO wait. [TS]

00:32:27   Either has that built into the language [TS]

00:32:29   or has a really good stable wrap around one of the other low level libraries the does this for you. [TS]

00:32:34   Yeah well I mean and. It should be you know. In case the implication here was not clear. [TS]

00:32:40   I'm not just looking first listen to this one problem. I'm also looking for a long term replacement to P.H.P. [TS]

00:32:46   and My toolkit. [TS]

00:32:47   Yeah that [TS]

00:32:48   but that's I don't think this is a great example for that because it is so you find something that does really good job [TS]

00:32:55   in this it still doesn't say OK now I'm going to write all of the all the stuff used to write in P.H.P. [TS]

00:32:58   I'm going to writing go I don't think you would do that [TS]

00:33:00   but I go could be an appropriate choice for this provided you get the event stuff. [TS]

00:33:05   Now then and the same token Where you to get a handy little solution of this. In Perl. [TS]

00:33:11   With an event [TS]

00:33:12   or something doesn't mean you would say OK now I'm going to rewrite all the speech religion Perl because that would. [TS]

00:33:17   Well I think I would still be a big upgrade but anyway. [TS]

00:33:19   You're probably not well in addition to Pearl having many of many of the same problems that I just cited with P.H.P. [TS]

00:33:25   and Python. I just would feel like it would feel like a sideways step. [TS]

00:33:30   I know what I was I was suggesting it just as because you were at the point now [TS]

00:33:33   or you're like look I want to solve this problem without using two hundred forty P.H.P. [TS]

00:33:37   Processes that are inefficient [TS]

00:33:38   and you lot of resources like an economics like a single purpose probably I have a problem. [TS]

00:33:42   This is there's actual impact to me implementing this better. [TS]

00:33:45   Node look like it was going to do a but has a little flaky. [TS]

00:33:48   Try a few other things this could be one of those things you try. [TS]

00:33:51   And the reason you will do the things I do the reason I'm able as one person to run a web service. [TS]

00:33:57   With a few hundred thousand users and I.I.S. App and be able to keep up with them. Semi OK. [TS]

00:34:04   Is because I don't spend a lot of time. [TS]

00:34:07   You know experiment in with new languages a new systems and making things just for fun. Most of what I do is to serve. [TS]

00:34:13   The things I'm working on. And so like I don't want to go on an expedition. [TS]

00:34:17   Trying to learn a bunch new languages to try to pick the best one for just this one task. [TS]

00:34:22   I want to be able to leverage this to use this to basically build up my toolkit [TS]

00:34:26   and modernize this one very ancient part of it because I know that P.H.P. Is. [TS]

00:34:32   I look I could keep using it for a long time it's going to be around for a long time [TS]

00:34:36   but I do keep running into things that it's bad at. [TS]

00:34:39   And I recognize that as I said last episode I really don't have a lot of faith in the quality of the direction it's [TS]

00:34:47   going. And there are lots of the languages that I that I should be considering. [TS]

00:34:52   I actually heard from Russell Ivana fiction and one of after you say last name I try to remember and try to learn [TS]

00:34:58   and I forgot. I'm sorry wrestle. [TS]

00:35:00   He's one of the guys in shifty jelly one of my competitors in the pod cast as based in the pocket cast and. [TS]

00:35:05   He's the nicest guy in the world and he told me privately. They crawl. [TS]

00:35:09   What sounded like a pretty impressive number with a pretty impressively low amount of hardware. [TS]

00:35:14   And they do it all in Java. I don't know. [TS]

00:35:16   Anything about jobs in the modern day to lessen my use Java was in Computer Science want to one. [TS]

00:35:22   Back in two thousand and one. Maybe people told me that I should be looking at C. Sharp for this. [TS]

00:35:28   And Casey I'm curious to know what you think about that [TS]

00:35:30   but you know there are lots of the language like we're looking at right now. [TS]

00:35:33   I don't know if Casey what if you were faced with this problem. What would you do. [TS]

00:35:38   I think the first thing I'd do is I would try to write it narrowed and and. [TS]

00:35:46   I thought you had said on Twitter that the issue that you're having with node. [TS]

00:35:51   Is that getting getting the process to start again. [TS]

00:35:56   Is is where everything's going wrong like the set Timeout is what's breaking. [TS]

00:36:01   Is that while the sun timeout is eventually leading to memory leaks is that a fair statement. [TS]

00:36:06   Oh it immediately to memory leaks. [TS]

00:36:07   It's like every every set Timeout is for some reason it seems to be that it's capturing the scope of its calling. [TS]

00:36:14   Scope. And it's really like retaining its calling scope even though. [TS]

00:36:18   It's just like it's just calling a function like you're not. [TS]

00:36:21   It's like I don't see why it needs to retain anything that's at in the calling scope. [TS]

00:36:25   But for some reason it isn't if you search around for for nodes that timeout or set. Interval. Memory leaks. [TS]

00:36:33   You see a bunch of other people having problems like this and some of the. Some of the fixes look like bugs. [TS]

00:36:38   To me like some of them are like well if you. If you set. [TS]

00:36:41   If you do if you just call set timeout then you'll get a leak but if you assign to a variable save our T. [TS]

00:36:46   Equal set Timeout. Then the doesn't leak. There's a bunch of weird stuff going on with the way this captures things. [TS]

00:36:53   Either it's a bug or it doesn't make any sense or both. Either way. That is a big problem for me. [TS]

00:36:59   I don't want to have to keep fighting issues like that in a language I'm going to invest much time into Also again what [TS]

00:37:04   I said before is like idling javascript. And I I don't. I don't foresee this dealing. [TS]

00:37:11   My long term replacement for P.H.P. So I feel like I'm kind of wasting time doing a whole bunch in it. Yeah. [TS]

00:37:16   I think the reason I brought that up is. [TS]

00:37:19   If the only issue you're having with no doubt boils down to just tickling that node process [TS]

00:37:25   and getting it to do its thing. Then. Couldn't you fire that from P.H.P. and Have no do the crawling. [TS]

00:37:31   Will know the whole idea here. And what I want to ask on Twitter. [TS]

00:37:36   Am I doing this wrong or like a descent timeout like just not work without leaking memory and. [TS]

00:37:41   I got a few I got a bunch of responses from node programmers. None of them use it all of them trigger. [TS]

00:37:47   Recurring schedule of schedule events with like X. [TS]

00:37:50   Turn all cron tasks that call into the node with a web request or something like. [TS]

00:37:55   Yeah that's basically what I'm trying or Lee [TS]

00:37:57   or they use things like there's something called I think node chrono something like that [TS]

00:38:00   and I believe you look at the source. It's using set Timeout internally. Like that it's basically the only option. [TS]

00:38:06   All I need to do is. I need to crawl. For all these feeds each of them has a T.T.L. That I calculate. I calculate. [TS]

00:38:14   When the next one should run. And I say call me again. With this ID in this many seconds. [TS]

00:38:20   That's it that's all I have to do. So they shouldn't be nesting. They're not stacking up. [TS]

00:38:26   I verified that like there it's not like it's not like they're there like not being cleared. [TS]

00:38:31   And so like making more and more calls per second it's not doing that it's. [TS]

00:38:36   It's just something about the memory capture but again this. That that's honestly like I'm sure. [TS]

00:38:41   I'm sure a note expert could could look at this and possibly fix it I it's more that. [TS]

00:38:45   I don't want to keep investing in a language that is clashing with me on such a fundamental level. And that. [TS]

00:38:51   I don't feel certain my long term goals. Yeah and I really want to defend node. Because I have not done. [TS]

00:38:59   Overwhelming amount of node programming but the programming I've done in node I really like. [TS]

00:39:04   I want to defend javascript because although it is full of landmines and pitfalls and bottomless pits. [TS]

00:39:12   It is actually to me anyway fairly funder right. [TS]

00:39:16   But if I were in your shoes I'd probably be coming to a similar a similar conclusion [TS]

00:39:21   and it certainly sounds to be a pragmatic conclusion. Regardless. To go back and answer question what about like C. [TS]

00:39:28   Sharp. Well that's that's challenging because the. The right way to do it if you're going to do it in C. [TS]

00:39:36   Sharp is to run. You know. S.P. Net I S. The whole Microsoft stack in no rush. [TS]

00:39:42   It Right and you have no interest in that and honestly if I were in your shoes. I wouldn't have any interest in that. [TS]

00:39:48   And you know what [TS]

00:39:49   when I was doing for fun programming in my own time that I was going to have to pay for what I did I used C. [TS]

00:39:56   Sharpen a speed on it. Hell no I didn't because I didn't want to stand all that op ed enough Todd. [TS]

00:40:00   Didn't want to have to worry about all that. So we'll see sharp as a language actually I think would. [TS]

00:40:05   I think you would like C. [TS]

00:40:06   Sharp a lot to be honest [TS]

00:40:08   but the problem is you've got all the periphery to deal with that I don't think you would enjoy. [TS]

00:40:13   Now of course you could take the approach of well let me look into Zambia and flesh mano and. [TS]

00:40:18   That might work to be honest I'm now outside of my comfort zone because I work in the Microsoft stack so I don't really [TS]

00:40:25   know a lot about the Zamfara and mano. The way that would be deployed. But it's worth looking into I don't think C. [TS]

00:40:34   Sharp is going anywhere anytime soon. [TS]

00:40:37   I don't know enough about go to be able to say yes that sounds like an excellent choice of something that has long term [TS]

00:40:42   viability. I think node is certainly very trendy right now in the same way that Python and Ruby have been in the past. [TS]

00:40:50   But to your point earlier are Python and Ruby going. To remain trendy. I don't know. And is no going to remain trendy. [TS]

00:40:59   I don't know. And although it seems a little weird to me to throw no doubt entirely because of set time Al. [TS]

00:41:06   I can also understand how that's the straw that's breaking the camel's back so if I were your shoes. [TS]

00:41:11   I honestly don't know what I would do I guess I would try to go and see how it works. [TS]

00:41:17   But Jesus it's how it's a tough call. I'm not sure what the right answers. [TS]

00:41:20   Understand entangling both of these things up with each other find a new language replace P.H.P. [TS]

00:41:25   That's going to be worth your while long term. [TS]

00:41:26   And solving a specific problem is over complicating it think those are two things that you should do. [TS]

00:41:32   And I don't think you need to be combined. [TS]

00:41:34   It's something to be nice if you're buying that I can understand it as I like Oh if I could get them you know two birds [TS]

00:41:38   with one stone. But the needs are so different I mean like on the one hand for example. [TS]

00:41:43   The best bet for a new language for you to learn that you're going to have two years later is probably at this point [TS]

00:41:48   swift and not because you're going to use your place peacekeeper because Apple's going to make you use it to you know. [TS]

00:41:53   Well and I might learn that. [TS]

00:41:54   Also but but because with does not open source there's nothing about so if they can go on the server yet. [TS]

00:42:00   And so I I'm going to have to maintain these two languages like. [TS]

00:42:04   Yeah I know you do you still need something to replace P.H.P. But yeah exactly good at like Swift. [TS]

00:42:09   But that aside you're probably gonna need to do that maybe look into it to see if it helps you here maybe does maybe [TS]

00:42:14   doesn't probably won't. Then you've got the problem of what do I need to replace P.H.P. [TS]

00:42:17   and Then you've got the problem of what do I do short term to make this crawler takes your resources. [TS]

00:42:22   Well I would also point out. I tweet share this last week on during during the break. [TS]

00:42:29   Last episode of core intuition was really good I'd look at the number open the show notes were day no jacket mention [TS]

00:42:34   Reus we're talking about swift and. And like how safe is it to use with today or. [TS]

00:42:42   How safe is it like to invest a whole lot of time in Swiss today. And they rightly pointed out like we do. [TS]

00:42:49   We don't actually switch is not a sure thing yet we it it is a thing that is out there that Apple has put out there. [TS]

00:42:54   But they've also put out things like garbage collection in Objective C. Things like the Java bridge back forever ago. [TS]

00:43:01   That ended up being axed. Only a few years down the road they just weren't working out. [TS]

00:43:06   We don't know switch is actually going to be here for the long term [TS]

00:43:08   and actually be the eventual replacement for just a C.S. All we know is that it seems like that's the goal right now. [TS]

00:43:14   But this is not the first time something like that has come around. [TS]

00:43:18   Apple certainly in a better position now than they were in the other alternatives came around [TS]

00:43:21   but we'd like it is not a guarantee that Swift will be the next thing for just of C. Programmers like. [TS]

00:43:29   All this is like. We're trying something now and I would point out. [TS]

00:43:34   We seem to be in a somewhat turbulent time at Apple. In addition. I mean God. [TS]

00:43:40   Looking at how strained their engineer resources are. [TS]

00:43:43   It does seem like a terrible time to to introduce you to language. [TS]

00:43:47   Just for them like not you not even just for us I mean we've you know. [TS]

00:43:50   We'll deal with that whatever they do but it's better to think Swift is much stronger. Of A. [TS]

00:43:56   If you had to bet on one of them. [TS]

00:43:57   You just named all bunch in the job a bridge job or it was done from a position of weakness. [TS]

00:44:01   Because it was like maybe people on used these crazy square brackets that is of super weak position [TS]

00:44:04   and they were just trying to get be able to develop for their US. [TS]

00:44:07   Garbage collection was always kind of half heartedly pushed it was like we're making garbage collection [TS]

00:44:12   and maybe will dog food here and you should make your apps work with that [TS]

00:44:17   but then they couldn't even convince all Apple internal library people to use it for the library to make them garbage [TS]

00:44:22   like and say it was just it was never like the amount of publicity and the push behind [TS]

00:44:28   and the specific team behind swift as like their their team that has you know. [TS]

00:44:35   Proven that they can get things done with an Apple having changed their whole compiler infrastructure over several [TS]

00:44:40   years and it was in a keynote. But you know it was also in the keynote. We're going to the standards bodies. [TS]

00:44:47   Starting tomorrow. [TS]

00:44:48   And we're going to make Face Time and open industries didn't have enough Did Steve Jobs than random things. [TS]

00:44:59   Things like this. This is of all of the sort of. [TS]

00:45:03   Major technology based things I would say this is even stronger than like by the way you should build your with an [TS]

00:45:09   obscene project builder. Like this was this was more emphatic. [TS]

00:45:13   Than project building is it took them a while to get in fact I think it basically took them until they had the X. [TS]

00:45:18   Code Name to say no this is it. This is. [TS]

00:45:22   You know we're telling you like we're completely taking over the compiler infrastructure which they were from the [TS]

00:45:26   beginning anyway but they were kind of timid about you know especially coming off the whole a cold warrior thing [TS]

00:45:31   and everything. My recollection anyway is that they were X. Turnley not shoving it in your face that.. [TS]

00:45:37   By the way if you're going to develop applications for our platform you're going to use our I.T. And our compilers. [TS]

00:45:43   Because they were in transition period there and eventually said no you're going to use our stuff [TS]

00:45:46   and to emphasize that is called Xcode announce that a project builder [TS]

00:45:49   and you're going to deal with that Swift was very bold and very strongly backed and you know. [TS]

00:45:55   I would say that the thing should be wary about using it now is they've said they're going to just constantly break the [TS]

00:46:01   syntax and they could all be so all those weird things. Having to do with source code compatibility. [TS]

00:46:06   Well and the tools are very amateur right now in the performance of the compiler sucks all the heavy stuff [TS]

00:46:10   and yeah there's plenty of reasons they weren't but like. [TS]

00:46:13   This is just so much stronger than the other things you've listed so even though those things have happened in the past [TS]

00:46:18   we had a bit like. [TS]

00:46:19   The problem a swift is the opportunity cost of not doing it seems much higher like you could sort of say All right well. [TS]

00:46:25   They're still supporting Objective C. [TS]

00:46:26   Right sort of to do this job of thing we'll see how that shakes out [TS]

00:46:29   and the garbage collection is like well wait to see what haven't you can do it was swift to let me say wait to see what [TS]

00:46:34   Apple actually in one sense but. But even if there is Apple and book like it's first. [TS]

00:46:38   You know swift only library or something. [TS]

00:46:40   Even then I still think you could potentially sour and I'm all in a sweat [TS]

00:46:45   and I could still change their mind so I think we have probably three years. [TS]

00:46:48   To be sure but I I think the degree of confidence in swift being a thing whether it's good [TS]

00:46:53   or not the fact that Apple's going to stick to it. It's pretty high this point. [TS]

00:46:57   Yeah and plus I don't know Apple's history with like Metro works cold warrior and stuff like that I. [TS]

00:47:03   I'm way later than that [TS]

00:47:04   but certainly it seems like a lot of the moves they've been making over the last five to ten years probably five ish [TS]

00:47:11   years have been to set the things in motion to get swift to be a thing you know to to get to work on L V M to work on [TS]

00:47:19   claiming to work on all of these things that make up the swift toolchain do it seems like a very deliberate multi-year [TS]

00:47:26   process to get to where we are today and. [TS]

00:47:28   Yeah Apple will throw things away on a whim if they so desire [TS]

00:47:31   but geez it seems like that's a lot of work to be thrown away just for fun. [TS]

00:47:36   And of course they have the big problem that they throw it away. [TS]

00:47:39   Just say OK well back to object Recy retreat to safety. They need as I've said many times the need something. [TS]

00:47:47   And you know they can't you can't stick with objects here forever. [TS]

00:47:51   This was too soon should they retreat [TS]

00:47:53   and advance again in a couple years in the future I think they're already behind and they need something like swift [TS]

00:47:57   and it's not swift. This will be a huge mistake for them because they will have wasted years and tons of resources. [TS]

00:48:02   Attending this with transition and if it fails it's like. What do we do now. The shop I guess I don't know. [TS]

00:48:08   I have a problem. We're also sponsored this week by fracture. [TS]

00:48:12   Member fracture they print photos directly on glass in vivid color. Go to fracture Me dot com F R E C T U R E Z. [TS]

00:48:20   Any dot com. I have fractures hanging all over my office. [TS]

00:48:25   They're awesome prints I like them a lot of people have come from of them whenever they've seen them. [TS]

00:48:30   They're fantastic so they print photos. Directly on glass. [TS]

00:48:34   And then you can hang them up directly you don't have to frame them like they are their own frame basically. [TS]

00:48:38   It's really really nice presents are just fifteen dollars for a five by five inch print and I use that size. [TS]

00:48:44   And I have a little row above. My window my office here I have a little row. [TS]

00:48:48   Or a little square Prince and I use them to print app icons of the apps I've done. So it's kind of this nice. [TS]

00:48:55   Physical almost like a trophy row of a here's the things I've made. [TS]

00:48:59   Because in our world the little get a lot of like physical recognition of things you make in software. [TS]

00:49:03   I really like that and people have people take an idea [TS]

00:49:06   and ran with that I've heard of lot of other people who do NOT too. [TS]

00:49:08   You can do that you can also print photos I have a couple photos printing them on the other wall over here. [TS]

00:49:13   I have like looks like it's probably an eleven by seventeen side. Tonight nice size. Anyway. [TS]

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00:49:24   Lightest and most elegant way to display your favorite photo. I can attest to that also like the. [TS]

00:49:30   You would think like a big slab a glass of the heavy. [TS]

00:49:32   But the glass layer is actually very thin on the front and behind it is like a little bit of like. [TS]

00:49:38   So much like a foam board kind of things you could mount. You can like metal hangers something. [TS]

00:49:42   So it actually isn't like unsafely heavy. [TS]

00:49:45   Like I could I was also afraid like how big I want to piece of glass hanging on my wall. [TS]

00:49:50   But it's nice it's a very nice weight balance it does not seem crazy to hang it on your wall [TS]

00:49:55   and they also have desk stand it's really great. Anyway. You can get twenty percent off your first order from fracture. [TS]

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00:50:03   That also let them know that you came from our show [TS]

00:50:05   and that'll make them sponsors more in the future so please do that there fracture Me dot com and use Capone code A.T.P. [TS]

00:50:12   For twenty percent off. These are great everything is in the box. Great quality I can't recommend enough. [TS]

00:50:17   Thank you very much to fracture for sponsoring our show. All right. [TS]

00:50:21   Any other thoughts on your adventure into the wilderness that scares you. I mean. [TS]

00:50:27   This will probably be an ongoing time [TS]

00:50:28   and mean heck maybe twenty fifteen will be the year of me learning too many privileges or just switching to Java. [TS]

00:50:33   I don't know. I doubt it will be switching to Java but I'm with Probably not but if you know you never know. [TS]

00:50:39   There are enough. I would like to time permitting talked. Talk about your new i Pad But before we do that. [TS]

00:50:46   John lunch tell us about some survey that's been going on lately. I think that the survey. [TS]

00:50:52   Because I don't have any apps in any of the app stores I soon. [TS]

00:50:54   I don't know if it was sent to everybody [TS]

00:50:55   but a lot of people got a survey from Apple asking them questions about the App Store [TS]

00:51:00   and the building tweeting little pictures of it. [TS]

00:51:03   I want to talk about the survey in general but one specific part of the survey. [TS]

00:51:08   Screenshot it and sent to us by Joe Seeger. [TS]

00:51:11   This is a question from Apple services which are the top three most effective marketing channels in driving down those [TS]

00:51:17   of your apps on the App Store. [TS]

00:51:19   So that's going to how do you get people down without finance are tons of choices not just one. [TS]

00:51:24   And as literate are in this picture that shows the second choice unless the first choice is in app messaging [TS]

00:51:30   and other choices like email P.R. Community social media television print. [TS]

00:51:35   You know all the different ways that you get people to come [TS]

00:51:37   and down the drop the second choice is pushing notifications. And so it's great because you know I write is a trap. [TS]

00:51:46   And then. [TS]

00:51:48   And then you check push notifications everybody checks does not have a case and gets a little email from Apple [TS]

00:51:52   and does. [TS]

00:51:53   You've indicated that the most effective marketing channels part of the geisha is you may not be aware of a section by [TS]

00:51:57   points like says that you can use person of occasions for marketing purposes and blah blah. [TS]

00:52:01   Or does the person who wrote this question have no idea that that rule exists [TS]

00:52:06   and is merely reflecting the reality that push notifications are a common marketing channel [TS]

00:52:12   or some combination thereof or like. [TS]

00:52:15   It's just it's baffling to me talk about you want to not know what the other is doing you can't tell from the question [TS]

00:52:20   whether it's you know. Another situation where some department doesn't understand another department or. [TS]

00:52:26   It's maybe they just like one just be honest and just see how many people will check that as there as I don't know. [TS]

00:52:32   It confuses me greatly but markets you get the survey. I did and I honestly I don't even if that was in mine. [TS]

00:52:40   I didn't even notice it I just blew right past it probably. I honestly. [TS]

00:52:46   I mean it's pretty clear from so many things that. [TS]

00:52:49   It seems like the only person an apple who even thinks that rule exists. [TS]

00:52:54   Maybe is the person who wrote that document which might have been Steve Jobs or isn't even there anymore. [TS]

00:52:59   I don't think I mean. The rule against push notification spam is is sadly. Such a joke that. [TS]

00:53:08   I wish it was and we will over this month as I wish it was enforced. I really do I think. [TS]

00:53:12   I think everybody would be better off especially Apple [TS]

00:53:15   and its customers would be better off if that rule wasn't forced. [TS]

00:53:19   Because the App Store and I.O.U.'s is turning into such a spammy flea market of garbage. And it's. [TS]

00:53:25   It's annoying it's your phone it's full of ads now. [TS]

00:53:28   This is this is completely the opposite of what I what I think Apple would would want to encourage him to tolerate. [TS]

00:53:35   But now your phone is full of ads. Because of this. Primarily because of his one rule being flagrantly ignored. [TS]

00:53:42   It is literally a way to push add to your phone. Whenever somebody feels like it with nope with no penalties. [TS]

00:53:48   How often do you get these sorts of ads. And I'm asking honestly because I get this. [TS]

00:53:54   Once a month maybe like I do not receive these that often now they infuriate me when I do get them [TS]

00:53:59   but it doesn't happen that often doesn't happen that often for you. [TS]

00:54:02   Well it doesn't happen that often to a lot of nerds like us because we usually either don't use the kind of apps that [TS]

00:54:08   show the most often or we turn them off but. [TS]

00:54:11   That is not representative of the population at large if you see it we talked about before that if you see like normal [TS]

00:54:16   people using their i was devices [TS]

00:54:18   and have have have somebody have like you know a family member who uses And I was devise have them show you their [TS]

00:54:24   notification screen if they're willing and see what's there. [TS]

00:54:26   You'll see they are extremely common in your brand big brand that and games free to play games and you know it's. [TS]

00:54:35   It's so so common. [TS]

00:54:38   So as being a common the survey here is the first survey about the apps or you've ever received Marco. Yes. [TS]

00:54:44   And I got six of them and. [TS]

00:54:46   This is [TS]

00:54:46   and so this seems from the outside looking in just seeing the stories about this that is this is like a response from [TS]

00:54:53   someone inside Apple to all of like the bad press that the App Store isn't getting lately with the current cycle of [TS]

00:54:59   rejections and people complaining and so on is of course so I disagree entirely. [TS]

00:55:04   You think it's just a it was I was going to ask like is it something we do every year. Know why now. [TS]

00:55:09   I think it's something that the that like the app store marketing team decided to do on their own basically I don't [TS]

00:55:14   think this has anything to do with the developer policies I don't think you know it's like we all posted on Twitter [TS]

00:55:21   like what we said in the final question which is like is there any other feedback you like to give Apple. [TS]

00:55:25   Of course you know all those developers unloaded on them with like well here's all the ways the app store sucks and. [TS]

00:55:31   I don't think this is going anywhere I don't I think this is going to a giant black hole [TS]

00:55:36   and I think the marketing team. And I see what's going to happen from the thing why send the survey. Now. [TS]

00:55:41   Why send a survey now. [TS]

00:55:42   Is it just complete coincidence [TS]

00:55:44   or is it because this is part of some like we're getting a lot of press so first thing we need to know is like where do [TS]

00:55:49   we stand is it just a bunch of cranky people ever let just gather information send out a big survey that it covers all [TS]

00:55:54   bases and I just sent everybody [TS]

00:55:56   and see what we get back because just looking at a bunch of news stories a cranky developers don't tell you anything [TS]

00:56:00   because this thousands and thousands of developers like five of them are angry. [TS]

00:56:04   And so they're just gathering information not like they're going to take this information and do anything with it [TS]

00:56:07   but I think this is a first. Seems to me. This is a first step and. [TS]

00:56:11   Let's see where we really are because I can imagine inside Apple the argument is and always is. [TS]

00:56:16   That's just a bunch of cranky people that's just a website that doesn't like us that's just someone going for page it's [TS]

00:56:21   not actually big deal we have hundreds of thousands of developers ninety nine point nine nine percent of them love us [TS]

00:56:26   and think we're awesome in the App Store is awesome and everything is great. This is I can imagine B.P. Saying. [TS]

00:56:30   And you just. We just have to manage the squeaky wheels with good P.R. and Stuff like that to realistically speaking. [TS]

00:56:36   Everybody loves us. Our developer SAT is awesome. And just like that's what that's what I tell it you know what I mean. [TS]

00:56:41   And for all we know that could be true so the first step of someone could say is. [TS]

00:56:45   That's what you keep telling me [TS]

00:56:46   but I don't like reading stories so step one prove to me that's the case survey all the developers. [TS]

00:56:50   Send back the thing. [TS]

00:56:51   Well see what the several results say and if they say like ninety nine percent love us and one percent hate us. [TS]

00:56:56   Then you know I'll believe you but if not then we'll have further discussions. I would believe that might be the case. [TS]

00:57:04   If I didn't go through the survey. But having gone through the survey. [TS]

00:57:08   It is pretty clear that this was written by marketing people. Not developer relations. You know. [TS]

00:57:15   And so it is you did or a Casey. [TS]

00:57:18   I don't remember if I got it but I certainly saw the survey because we we have certainly seen. [TS]

00:57:24   Pretty much the entirety of the survey I thought was only two or three pages right. Nose long it was. [TS]

00:57:29   I probably twenty screamed the. Oh then maybe. I clearly have not seen it then but the pieces I saw just reeked of me. [TS]

00:57:36   Reeked to me. Of marketing speak. [TS]

00:57:39   And that [TS]

00:57:40   and I agree with you Marco that this was marketing acting on its own just trying to figure out what to say to the world [TS]

00:57:45   was I don't think this is any big conspiracy or anything like that but concern about some [TS]

00:57:49   but I have some give me examples on the question for all the questions about the like how do you market your app yes. [TS]

00:57:54   And how can we help you market your app better basically basically yeah like it was. [TS]

00:57:59   It was not I mean I could be wrong but it really did seem like this was like some ab store marketing team. [TS]

00:58:07   Doing their own research for their own department [TS]

00:58:09   and it was not a it didn't seem representative of the developer program as a whole of the App Store as a whole caring [TS]

00:58:14   what developers thought about the App Store and the like. It really did seem like it was. [TS]

00:58:19   What it said [TS]

00:58:20   and nothing more than that which is a survey about how you market your apps like that that really seemed like that was. [TS]

00:58:25   That was it was there anything in there about like find ability in the search and stuff like that very little. Now. [TS]

00:58:33   A lot of it gets overshadowed you're right by like the people posting the like the free response thing where you type [TS]

00:58:38   whatever you want. And ever and just dumping a pile of turns on the Apple store a step. And not the other questions. [TS]

00:58:44   But. So if it's just a marketing department. [TS]

00:58:47   Like I still question you know it's not like every individual department can decide to e-mail every single developer. [TS]

00:58:53   Whenever they feel like it or like a lot of enough developers that. You know it seem like. [TS]

00:58:59   All the big names got this right. [TS]

00:59:01   That seems like something that is not that you need a higher level OK about [TS]

00:59:06   and maybe it was just the marketing department. [TS]

00:59:09   Initiating this thing [TS]

00:59:10   but why would you give the OK for like I'm sure every department wants to do this I'm sure you know everyone would love [TS]

00:59:15   to marry my all developers and ask him questions about whatever they're there are things developer relations. [TS]

00:59:19   Or the development tools team [TS]

00:59:21   or the frameworks team has sent a how you like in this framework that we just made thought the survey [TS]

00:59:25   but you can't everyone can you know every single developer. [TS]

00:59:28   And you know Schiller's organization I guess got the go ahead to send a twenty page. [TS]

00:59:33   Thing that's mostly about how you market your apps I don't know. Well. [TS]

00:59:36   Schiller's organization is the developer organization. [TS]

00:59:39   But it's also marketing right the entire developer relations division at Apple is under marketing which is under [TS]

00:59:44   Schiller. Which is part of the problem. Honestly. [TS]

00:59:47   But that's looking back I'm saying like of us if you said this is just marketing and not developer relations [TS]

00:59:52   but as long as the same department maybe the questions were just bad maybe you feel like the question should have been [TS]

00:59:56   asking more about the stuff that you wrote about in the summary thing at the end. [TS]

01:00:00   Instead of just asking you how you advertise your applications the people. [TS]

01:00:04   That was there are questions about like how do you deal with the reviews on the SO I DON'T YOU should just post post [TS]

01:00:09   the full survey so we can all of the questions. Yeah I mean I go back I do not like. [TS]

01:00:13   I got like five or six of these links and. [TS]

01:00:15   I don't even check to see like what emails they are going to but maybe I'll go back and screenshot every page. [TS]

01:00:19   It's excessively boring. Like it's really it's extremely dull and it. It is really mostly a marketing survey. It. [TS]

01:00:28   I don't think the purpose of this was was what you're saying however there was something interesting. [TS]

01:00:35   I think posted a few days ago on December thirtieth to developer news feed here impatiently going to Chad here. [TS]

01:00:42   Look at there's I don't know if you guys caught this. [TS]

01:00:45   I was I was I was away on vacation so I didn't blog about it yet but which might be the pulpit. If you look at this. [TS]

01:00:52   So this is. [TS]

01:00:53   This is a quick thing I'll just read it's pretty short the quick thing posted to the apple developer news feed. [TS]

01:00:58   Posted on December thirtieth. Titled getting help with at previous and rejections. So here's the entire text of it. [TS]

01:01:06   I was going to now available after the holiday shutdown. Please remember. [TS]

01:01:09   If you need to appeal an average action a request that they review your app be extradited. [TS]

01:01:13   The fastest way to get help us tickets to contact the app review team to the Contact Us form. [TS]

01:01:18   To us projection details and asked for clarification visit resolution center and i Tunes connect. [TS]

01:01:22   We look forward to seeing the innovative new app you'll create in two thousand and fifteen. [TS]

01:01:26   Really forward to seeing them. And maybe rejecting them. Right. So. [TS]

01:01:30   So this this this I think is much more interesting than the market. What do you think this angle is this. [TS]

01:01:39   I mean I think this is hilarious [TS]

01:01:40   and so I think this might be I mean obviously you have to read a lot to do leaves here. [TS]

01:01:47   It might be if they leave ailed threat. [TS]

01:01:49   But if you read it if you realize if it's a threat it kind of works [TS]

01:01:54   and says the fastest way though it doesn't say it runs the press never helps anything [TS]

01:02:00   or ever the phrase wasn't in the guidelines doing it it is not as fast aggressive [TS]

01:02:04   or as aggressive aggressive as those things are. [TS]

01:02:07   It reads more like a reminder to like their developers out there who don't know about the resolutions on their I don't [TS]

01:02:12   know. [TS]

01:02:12   It's very easy to read this as a threat but I think this my [TS]

01:02:16   and maybe this is just me being optimistic about this kind of stuff. I think this. This might be the. [TS]

01:02:21   The kind of implied Mikol pup on some of the recent rejection crap. [TS]

01:02:25   I think this might be like hey guys you know don't worry we're getting it under control I don't know maybe again maybe [TS]

01:02:32   that's unreasonably optimistic What do you think I read it the same way that. [TS]

01:02:37   This is them saying Alright alright alright everyone relax. Have rewon relax. Just let us know Wolf Ixia. It'll be OK. [TS]

01:02:48   But millions a frustrate me that Apple so institutionally crotchety maybe. I don't know. [TS]

01:02:56   It's like why can't they just say hey guys you know we've heard. [TS]

01:02:59   We have seen that there's been some questionable choices on our part. We're going to fix it. Like. [TS]

01:03:05   Is that so terrible is being. [TS]

01:03:08   Is being vulnerable really that bad I know it'll never happen by chance step one admit no wrongdoing. Yes. [TS]

01:03:16   I mean like that's not that's not apples Emma like they have admitted wrong to me for even [TS]

01:03:20   when they think they're wrong again and again everyone gets a free Bunbury even though as we think it's not a problem [TS]

01:03:25   or whatever I [TS]

01:03:25   but in general this specific part of Apple Apple of you does not admit wrongdoing in like the whole it you know lower [TS]

01:03:35   deck your app and then you make a big fuss about animal accept it and then like that that cycle happens. [TS]

01:03:40   And there's never a part where Apple comes out and you know sort of bears its soul and says we've thought about this [TS]

01:03:47   and we've you know how do you like. [TS]

01:03:50   The admission of wrongdoing guess is OK now your app is back in the store but it's like. This isn't a systemic problem. [TS]

01:03:56   This is a one off case that just didn't happen to go right. [TS]

01:03:58   And it being in the process nothing to do with the getting fixed. [TS]

01:04:01   Is just one of those things that happens and oh well it got fixed and don't worry about it [TS]

01:04:05   and I just that happens repeatedly over and over again [TS]

01:04:06   and there's never any sort of public acknowledgement that this might be a thing and not just like well. [TS]

01:04:11   Those things just happen sometimes. And that's what frustrates people so much that. [TS]

01:04:15   That part of the our innovation is a so different than individual Apple employees which as we all know are human beings [TS]

01:04:20   they're actually forthcoming and B it's not like the. [TS]

01:04:24   The larger corporation in terms of when they make design mistakes or. When they have you know. [TS]

01:04:30   Large scale problems like the labor difficulties in China. A diversity within the organization things that Apple has. [TS]

01:04:36   You know fallen on its face about. And they come back and say we're not doing well I often diversity. [TS]

01:04:42   Where the Greenpeace yelled at them and I thought it was unfair and they got you know that [TS]

01:04:44   but you know we are going to make us stuff better before we were sent in our better labor practices we're going to try [TS]

01:04:49   to be more transparent there we're going to do you know. All of the situations where Apple did something wrong. [TS]

01:04:53   And it's publicly trying to do it better by the minute that the past was bad. [TS]

01:04:57   The present is bad and trying to get better. [TS]

01:04:59   But there's never anything like that having to do with apps or of you at least not public. Know. [TS]

01:05:03   Well because again this is longer Schiller I mean if you think about the kind of public persona that Schiller shows me [TS]

01:05:09   I don't know any about the guy. You know non publicly but what he shows publicly. He is kind of like this you know. [TS]

01:05:16   Terse quiet guy who doesn't appear to be ever having any fun. I mean even like. [TS]

01:05:21   Even in his presentation in the last few years. Is just me or does he just kind of seem angry. Like it's. It doesn't. [TS]

01:05:29   You don't get you know. Like if you look at this person. [TS]

01:05:31   Knowing he's the one in charge of this organization [TS]

01:05:33   and knowing that he does have a lot of direct involvement in some of these decisions. [TS]

01:05:36   It's no wonder that the attitude we get is just a brick wall with with occasional terseness coming out and not really. [TS]

01:05:44   Openness or friendliness because that appears to be the public persona Phil Schiller shows. [TS]

01:05:48   That's not a temp that's not him cook at all the cooks persona [TS]

01:05:51   and I think Tim Cook's persona has been infecting more [TS]

01:05:54   and more of the sort of higher level entire corporation Apple stuff just of this is a corner of the corporation now so [TS]

01:05:59   the tire cooperation is diversity labor practices. Finances. You know like the environment. [TS]

01:06:07   That is big picture stuff human resources like. Geraghty all that stuff that is big big picture. [TS]

01:06:13   You're hopefully they'll be filtering down to the smaller things and of course like the. [TS]

01:06:17   You know the whole management reshuffle and collaboration is more important than unifying things under Johnny I [TS]

01:06:23   but it just that that influence in that tone seems not to have made that review yet. No I mean. [TS]

01:06:28   I honestly as long as Phil Schiller is in charge of the division that. After a view was under. [TS]

01:06:34   I don't foresee any major changes in this area. Because I really do think it goes to him and I think. [TS]

01:06:40   I think he's the one who is who is in control to fix this [TS]

01:06:44   and seems to believe that the way they're doing it is the correct way to do it. Now that's. I don't know. [TS]

01:06:51   Part of the reason that we all love apples because everything is so secretive an interesting [TS]

01:06:56   and you never know what's going to come next [TS]

01:06:58   but I don't know I feel like holding on to that Apple is perhaps not the right approach anymore. [TS]

01:07:04   But they're not the underdog they're not. [TS]

01:07:07   You're not the apple they once were and they're bigger than they once were and. [TS]

01:07:11   It's probably unfair for me to prescribe what Apple should do from. From my chair here. [TS]

01:07:16   The other coast but I'm not going to let that stop me. [TS]

01:07:20   It just seems like can we get a little more feedback and all icky perfecting on [TS]

01:07:24   and I'm not the first person realize this is that when we all left over the sea this year we were all so amped up [TS]

01:07:30   and so excited and so. Reinvigorated and then I feel like six months later all grumpy again. [TS]

01:07:37   Maybe just because we are all grumpy people in general [TS]

01:07:40   but I don't think so I think we really were excited about all this stuff. [TS]

01:07:43   And how open they seem to be becoming and how they seem to be listening to us and. [TS]

01:07:51   Now six months later it's like Oh we're back in this same dull grind. That we're always in and. [TS]

01:07:58   That's just not a fun place to be. [TS]

01:08:00   It's just not in part of the reason that we are also attracted to this environment [TS]

01:08:05   and attracted to writing apps for this platform is because it's fun [TS]

01:08:09   and God are they working hard to suck the fun out of it. Yeah. I feel right now but Apple development. [TS]

01:08:15   The way Phil Schiller sounds on stage at the live most recent you know it's completely on amused I'm bored. Yeah. [TS]

01:08:21   Like just kind of like going through the motions get like kind of like almost angry laid it. [TS]

01:08:26   It like the mood has shifted from the Craig Federighi that we saw at the river D.C. [TS]

01:08:31   Showing us all the cool new technical stuff to the marketing hammer. [TS]

01:08:36   Being dropped and saying no this is how things should be this is not how things should be. Period. [TS]

01:08:41   You know back to old. I mean look Phil is all tool Apple. [TS]

01:08:44   He was under job he's been there for very long time like he is. He represents that. That attitude Apple. [TS]

01:08:50   And you look at the leadership like you know Ben Thompson thought about this like a lot of the of the leadership has [TS]

01:08:54   changed. He's one of the oldest SEPs there now our longest running at least. And I really do think like this. [TS]

01:09:00   This is how this department is run. This is how he thinks is the right way to do it clearly. [TS]

01:09:07   Otherwise he would be doing it this way I mean he has enough power [TS]

01:09:09   and govern he could change if he wanted to so we know this is how they think they should be running the company [TS]

01:09:13   or this division rather. So obviously like this goes to fill. [TS]

01:09:18   This is all under Phil Phil is the guy who's Ponselle for this being this way [TS]

01:09:22   and the guy who could change if you wanted to. But he's wanted. [TS]

01:09:26   And maybe that's it look at seems to working OK again like you know edge of a coup [TS]

01:09:30   or read a sale what they should do obviously they're doing something right. [TS]

01:09:33   But certainly it's not right for developers A is right for Apple. [TS]

01:09:37   Probably maybe long term it's questionable but it is right for them for now. [TS]

01:09:42   It benefits the users in certain ways but not others. But you know overall it's probably a benefit. [TS]

01:09:47   But yeah you're right I mean the the overall attitude is pretty negative. And it's pretty stifling and. [TS]

01:09:53   I think that that ultimately is what is going to cause. [TS]

01:09:57   Possible long term problems for Apple you know they they really do depend on developers to to push the boundaries for [TS]

01:10:04   what their platforms and not just the phone but especially the i Pad and probably also in the future the watch. [TS]

01:10:11   They really. They need us to make reasons for people to buy these things. The phone is an easy success. [TS]

01:10:17   Because it's a really good smartphone. And everybody by smartphone. They're subsidizing so much of the world. [TS]

01:10:22   Everyone has a decided they need one. [TS]

01:10:24   I mean smartphones are this magical business where everyone buys them because their diggers provide so much utility [TS]

01:10:30   and everyone is willing to spend whatever it takes as long as they can. [TS]

01:10:34   Which is a lot of people do this with are so cheap. [TS]

01:10:37   They're willing to do it because smartphones are just so there is very big with us so the only. The question isn't. [TS]

01:10:43   Do I buy a smartphone the question is which smartphone do I buy. And so they can compete well there. [TS]

01:10:47   If you look at the i Pad the i Pad is like. It's optional. It's an accessory for most people it's and. [TS]

01:10:53   It's a luxury it's it's an extravagance. It's a fun device it is usually not your primary computer. [TS]

01:10:59   And usually most people don't say I need to have an i Pad It's only a question of which rather I need to have a tablet [TS]

01:11:05   only question of which one do I buy. No it's. It's just an extra The watch is going to be that same thing. [TS]

01:11:11   Most people I don't think wear watches and certainly the the ones who do are watches today. [TS]

01:11:16   I don't think it's an obvious thing to say well I have to get a smart watch. [TS]

01:11:19   Like they think the watch is going to have the exact same challenge the i Pad has of. [TS]

01:11:23   It's going to have to justify its purchase. [TS]

01:11:25   It is coming from zero it is not going to be like a phone where they just have to pull people into the store who are [TS]

01:11:31   already buying their phone anyway. The watch is going to be like you have to tell me why I want this. [TS]

01:11:37   And so much of that rests on what developers do. What apps are out there. So many people end up buying these devices. [TS]

01:11:45   Because of one or a very small number of specific apps that run on. [TS]

01:11:50   And if developers keep getting marginalized and restricted to sue severely. [TS]

01:11:56   It's very hard for us to push those platforms forward. [TS]

01:11:59   It's very and it becomes less likely that the next big thing is going to be an eyewitness. [TS]

01:12:05   And how does that help Apple. You know I agree and I think perhaps the most obvious. [TS]

01:12:10   And specific example of this is watching. [TS]

01:12:15   Everyone's reactions to watch kit and a lot of popular developers and I wish I could think of a specific person [TS]

01:12:22   but I can't off top my head but a lot of big developers have said. [TS]

01:12:26   Yeah it looks cool but no men to wait and see how this shakes out before I do anything real. [TS]

01:12:31   And that is a different reaction than I remember ever having seen before. Like when the i Pad came out. [TS]

01:12:39   If nothing else. Everyone said holy crap I'm going to make an i Pad app so I can be a part of the gold rush. Where now. [TS]

01:12:47   Hearing a lot of really popular developers say. Well we'll see how it goes. [TS]

01:12:52   And that's that's not where Apple wants to be right [TS]

01:12:56   and you know what Apple has shown this fall with all day I would hate stuff and all the crazy rejections. [TS]

01:13:00   Racing forward to be first to market is not necessarily a good idea. And that's I think that feeds into this like. [TS]

01:13:08   And now. Now we're seeing watch that we know it's going to be a new device it's. [TS]

01:13:11   It's very restricted with what you can do up front. [TS]

01:13:15   You know there can be more he believes added over time but like all the crazy policies [TS]

01:13:18   and rejections that we've seen for Iowa so far. [TS]

01:13:23   The watch is going to have its own set of those it's going to it's going to reset from zero it's going to have it's an [TS]

01:13:27   entirely new set of weird decisions Apple has to make. [TS]

01:13:31   Many of which the developer community will disagree with and bloggers will get angry about it. [TS]

01:13:36   We're going to start over starting from scratch here and all the same people who cause all this stuff with I.I.S. [TS]

01:13:41   Rejection so far this fall. They're all still making the decision they're also making the calls. [TS]

01:13:46   And so the same system them play it's going to have the same problems of his new platform. [TS]

01:13:51   The only question is will the watch sell enough. So you know we were all here. [TS]

01:13:56   Because a most most I.O.'s developers of all i OS developers use I.O.'s devices themselves like. [TS]

01:14:03   These are the vices we choose to have. So that makes us already right they're encouraged to develop for them. [TS]

01:14:10   And then secondarily. Although it's mattered more if you're become pany. [TS]

01:14:14   There are so many of them out there they sell so ridiculously well. [TS]

01:14:17   That it is that it's just a good business idea to target them. In many cases or in most cases. [TS]

01:14:22   The watch we don't know yet. And the the watch. [TS]

01:14:25   We don't know if developers are going to end up loving them [TS]

01:14:28   or if it's going to end up being like what a lot of us say about the i Pad which is like God only use that much ever [TS]

01:14:32   you know ever since the big phones came out or whatever. We also don't know if they're going to sell very well. [TS]

01:14:37   That's a big question mark right now. [TS]

01:14:39   They might sell like crazy they might be blockbusters and we might be we might be looking back at this episode. [TS]

01:14:45   In six months and laughing at how pessimistic we might have been [TS]

01:14:49   or how much you might have underestimated how much they would sell or. [TS]

01:14:53   They just might not sell that well for a while if ever and we don't know. And you know be because of the attitude. [TS]

01:15:01   That they have shown developers. I mean since the being the app store really. This. [TS]

01:15:06   That's not a new thing [TS]

01:15:06   but it is special because of the recent mood among the community of like all of this chilling effect coming from all [TS]

01:15:13   these rejections. [TS]

01:15:15   I think that makes it even that makes us even less excited to jump into this unknown this big question mark. [TS]

01:15:21   So I again like. [TS]

01:15:22   This is why I'm saying like the timing of these things as terrible I think the timing of all these relief. [TS]

01:15:27   You know frivolous or or weird Caprice rejections. [TS]

01:15:31   Is just awful because this is this is when Apple needs all the enthusiasm that they that they earned. This past summer. [TS]

01:15:39   They need that enthusiasm now. For all of us to start building cool stuff for the launch. [TS]

01:15:44   To increase the chance of them selling lots of watches. [TS]

01:15:47   And instead they've totally burned so much of that with these rejections and again. For what for. [TS]

01:15:54   What was the benefit there are when I think of what the pony had bossman say it all that they would say. [TS]

01:15:59   It's just these weird indie developer blogger things that are angry as you know. Starbucks is going to have a lot jab. [TS]

01:16:05   Weight watchers will have a Nike will have on you know. [TS]

01:16:08   Jet Blue have one like they just go through all these big name brands like on my relationships with those other C. [TS]

01:16:13   Level executives is awesome and we drive our Lamborghinis down to the golf course [TS]

01:16:17   and have golf all the time they're totally making watch good apps Who cares of the bunch of these hipster people in [TS]

01:16:22   Portland are going to make a watch out right away Bill make one after the other Raptor out we don't care as long as we [TS]

01:16:27   can say that as a Wal-Mart app on our watch and that's all that matters I mean you go back to Starbucks [TS]

01:16:31   and all bleep little thing that will give you a discount you can get a coffee or. You know like. [TS]

01:16:35   That's the point you had boss like dystopian scenario the idea that you know the people the things that we care about [TS]

01:16:41   you know. [TS]

01:16:41   Argument to be like Yeah [TS]

01:16:43   but these little guys tend to make the most interesting things you're not going to get a really super innovative app [TS]

01:16:47   coming out of Starbucks or anything for your watchers agree that Starbucks has to be there. Right. [TS]

01:16:52   You need that on your watch she needs like you need to Twitter app you need [TS]

01:16:55   or whatever like whatever you need the big names. [TS]

01:16:57   But you also need these other community and from never expected not to all the other key. [TS]

01:17:01   Unity is annoying and they bother us and they say mean things. On websites about us and Starbucks never does that. [TS]

01:17:06   And we're going to have them. [TS]

01:17:07   And you better get on board if you don't want to have your app there [TS]

01:17:09   and they want to million people writing applications that you know all the people make of those clone free to play [TS]

01:17:15   or rip off applications. [TS]

01:17:16   They're all going to be of the watch and they won because that's their whole friggin business they make you know. [TS]

01:17:20   They make a million. [TS]

01:17:21   Clone copyright violating apps until they get pulled from the store and it's just a shotgun approach [TS]

01:17:26   and they're all going to be all over the watch so we're going to have huge numbers we can put up on slides Michel big [TS]

01:17:30   pie chart look at many apps the watch has already you know. [TS]

01:17:33   Because every app is great equal and it comes to stats on slides right. [TS]

01:17:37   And we have all these big names and flips but the logos of a bunch of Fortune five hundred companies. [TS]

01:17:42   And the fact that panic isn't on there because panic was afraid. [TS]

01:17:45   About putting a lot of things they want to take a wait and see attitude. [TS]

01:17:47   Nobody the audience cares and we had Apple don't care if you care boohoo you that's true. However. [TS]

01:17:55   It's only a matter of time before the next. Instagram or the next. [TS]

01:17:59   Dots of the next cross the road isn't on i OS I know that's a set up the argument we would make is like if you're [TS]

01:18:05   expecting. [TS]

01:18:06   You don't know where the next innovations coming from [TS]

01:18:08   and it's probably not going to come from Fortune five hundred companies probably going to come from one of these little [TS]

01:18:12   renovate you never know where it's going to come from they get somebody you've never even heard of who heard of the guy [TS]

01:18:16   who made floppy bird who heard of the people that cross the road until they made you know a cup like that's that's [TS]

01:18:21   argument for I'm not saying this is Apple that student saying these are the two. [TS]

01:18:24   He's been two endpoints on this continuum. [TS]

01:18:27   And I don't know which employees which for all we know Apple is totally on board what we're saying. [TS]

01:18:30   Like you've got of you know. And they're having this internal debate or. [TS]

01:18:34   There's somebody in power at Apple who's on the pointy haired boss side or whatever like. [TS]

01:18:38   Again with an information vacuum you can if you're in a bad mood. [TS]

01:18:40   You imagine that morning their boss side if you're good mood you imagine all the good people have a fighting the good [TS]

01:18:45   fight and just haven't quite gotten their act together yet. And as a quick little side note. [TS]

01:18:50   I'm really curious to see what happens with watch it and games. [TS]

01:18:54   Because Watch it is really not designed for games pretty pretty clearly. And so when they do the native S.T.K. [TS]

01:19:01   Which they say later next year which. People have been assuming that means everybody see next year. [TS]

01:19:08   I actually think that might be too early. I would guess. Next winter. Just like a year from this. [TS]

01:19:14   This year's watch which came out in November. I'm guessing maybe next November. We get that. [TS]

01:19:20   And next spring like spring two thousand and sixteen new watches come out that can use it. [TS]

01:19:26   So anyway that's just a guess but we don't know yet like. It sure looks like all of watch kit so far. [TS]

01:19:34   Was designed not only to not enable games. But policy wise to prohibit most of them. [TS]

01:19:39   Well but it will have the most important gaming future. [TS]

01:19:41   The most important thing future of the watch to tell you when gems are fifty percent off for the next. That's. [TS]

01:19:47   Unfortunately God that is true but isn't that is the most important gaming feature of the watch [TS]

01:19:51   and it will be supported because that is the one thing you're able to do is send up a little notification with a button [TS]

01:19:56   that you press to make you know. And that's all they care because games to their tech. [TS]

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01:22:35   Last week. [TS]

01:22:36   We had made mention of you having new thoughts on the i Pad [TS]

01:22:39   and then we genuinely just didn't get a chance to talk about it. [TS]

01:22:43   So would you like to talk about your needs thoughts on your new i Pad at your own songs whole episode I mean I can [TS]

01:22:49   but I feel I feel kind of bad monopolizing the whole show or whatever nothing else going on all interrupt you [TS]

01:22:54   and tell you why wrong about it's a good perfect. OK. I would ask nothing less. All right so. [TS]

01:23:03   I was very impressed with the i've had air TOS spec of great this year. And we bought. [TS]

01:23:10   We bought one as a gift for a family member and I as a plane and play with them in the store. [TS]

01:23:16   I was really really want to overbuy it because so for the last couple the last full size i Pad I bought was i Pad three. [TS]

01:23:22   I skipped the four and their one. And I bought both i Pad mini is the. [TS]

01:23:29   The first terrible one and in the first right now on the i Pad three. [TS]

01:23:34   And the two i Pad Mini has made me hate the i Pad the. The i Pad three was. I love the retina screen so much. [TS]

01:23:45   But it was so heavy it was also it also had weird performance characteristics because of you know it like it. [TS]

01:23:51   It had it a boost of the G.P. Used to deal with the extra pixels but it didn't boost the C.B. Use. [TS]

01:23:56   So any kind of any kind of C.P.U. Bound. [TS]

01:23:58   Graphic operation or or process was was very slow on them so it was very weird for that. It was also. [TS]

01:24:05   You know that at thirty eight Iran Warman it was a whole thing. I still use mine every day and love it. Gone. [TS]

01:24:10   Perfect OK. I Pad Mini one comes out. [TS]

01:24:14   It instantly ruin the i Pad three for me because it's so much smaller [TS]

01:24:18   and lighter it makes the i Pad three seem like this giant boat. It's such a massive difference. [TS]

01:24:24   But the screen on the i Pad Mini one is so terrible because non retina. It was. [TS]

01:24:29   It was just a miserable experience like. I I would look at that and I would say. [TS]

01:24:34   Man I this is the great form factor I love this form factor. I think but man the screen is so bad. [TS]

01:24:39   And I try to look at something I've had three. And it was so big and so it was the worst of both worlds. [TS]

01:24:47   I thought the retina many would solve this problem for you you can even call it that you call the retina Pad Mini right. [TS]

01:24:54   That's right. Right. So sorry Stephen. I thought that would do it and what I found instead. [TS]

01:25:01   Was that the retina many had had two main issues from you number one is that the screen is not as good as as the air [TS]

01:25:07   one screen which to has it. It is a lower end device in some ways and they're there. Always. [TS]

01:25:15   But it is noticeable and it's green like the color isn't as good and you can really tell. [TS]

01:25:20   The second thing is is that you know all the people who went to the progression of fulfilled I have had to to I've had [TS]

01:25:27   many. And then to a new phone this year and a lot of them are saying. [TS]

01:25:30   Oh I hope I haven't touched I've had since I got my my i Phone six or six plus or something similar about you know the. [TS]

01:25:37   I Pad is never going to be always with you. It's a less you have really giant pockets year round. [TS]

01:25:42   But that's that's unlikely for most people [TS]

01:25:44   or you know a person maybe even then I know a lot of people with purses none of them care and i Pad and all the time. [TS]

01:25:50   The i Pad is always going to be a secondary device. [TS]

01:25:53   It's never going to be always in your pocket the way a phone is the thing i Pad is better at [TS]

01:25:58   or the things that I enjoy more on the i Pad. All need the full sized screen they all need. [TS]

01:26:04   The nine point seven inch screen. Or at least they're better on it. What I found and. So what I found. [TS]

01:26:10   Having when I finally got the many that was the had a decent enough screen. [TS]

01:26:14   What I found is that the things I would do on an i Pad I wasn't enjoying them as much. They weren't as good. [TS]

01:26:20   They weren't as much better than on that on the phone. Because they all benefited from having larger screens and. [TS]

01:26:28   So this this small money even though with the same resolution. [TS]

01:26:31   It just wasn't as good it wasn't as much better than the phone. [TS]

01:26:34   The difference between the i Pad on the phone got smaller lease you know the enjoyment of it for me. [TS]

01:26:40   Again and again this is all for me this is all a very much an opinion not a fact piece here so please bear with me. [TS]

01:26:46   Anyway. So this year. I was so. Wowed by the i Pad Air two in so many ways. Most notably the size and weight. [TS]

01:26:57   But also as the screen is really really nice [TS]

01:26:58   and it's you know that they did some new stuff with how the pixels are glued on or whatever and. [TS]

01:27:03   It's really really nice the anti-reflective coating is minor but also nice. The speed is insane. [TS]

01:27:08   Because it has a triple courtship in the two gigs of RAM so it's like. This was a major upgrade to the i Pad lying. [TS]

01:27:14   The aerator two were both major upgrades. I just get there one. [TS]

01:27:18   So so I decided you know what let me let me try it [TS]

01:27:20   and let me also unload the notion that I need to get every I've had for testing. [TS]

01:27:26   Because here I am I've already skipped two generations. The the four in the air one. [TS]

01:27:31   And as a developer and I've had have it didn't matter at all even when I was even when I had Instapaper and even [TS]

01:27:39   when I had the magazine. Both of those were much heavily used much more heavily to me I've had then overcast was. [TS]

01:27:45   I always thought. [TS]

01:27:46   You know there's someone going to write in and say that you know this works really badly I might have had three. [TS]

01:27:51   You know what's what's up for this crash and I've had three and I always thought I better save all these i Pads [TS]

01:27:57   and get every model because that way. [TS]

01:27:59   If somebody does this then I'll be able to to really you know get in there fix it in practice. [TS]

01:28:04   That has literally never happened. Not once. [TS]

01:28:07   There has never been the entire time developing Instapaper the magazine overcast which had been since the i Pad launch [TS]

01:28:15   I was there on day one with the inspectors all like that entire time. Throughout every i Pad. [TS]

01:28:20   I have never had a single bug report or complaint about something that was specific to anyone i Pad model. [TS]

01:28:27   So I think that's a bunch of crap. [TS]

01:28:30   I think that's that's something that pair that developers tell themselves myself included. To either. [TS]

01:28:36   Either paranoia to keep existing i Pads or justification to bylane new ones. [TS]

01:28:41   So that I can tell you if you're a developer of ever wondered about that. It is probably unnecessary. If you. [TS]

01:28:46   If you had a very high end three D. Game. That might be different because the G.P. [TS]

01:28:51   Used to vary a lot other than other than high end game developers. [TS]

01:28:55   I would say the differences are small enough that you don't really need to care you don't need to have them. [TS]

01:28:59   And worse comes to worse if you really need some that you can find a friend with an i Pad three. [TS]

01:29:03   Or by Warren e-bay for cheap. Anyway so I decided now I'm going to sell every i Pad I have. [TS]

01:29:09   That's not this one and just keep the air to which I can with myself to buy. Getting back to that So anyway sorry. [TS]

01:29:15   Sorry for the long. Selfish rant. [TS]

01:29:18   First of all before I move on have is that wrongly do us disagree I assume you do because you have things I've said [TS]

01:29:24   just have a crap. I have an i Phone six now as the all three of us do. And I still reach for my i Pad Mini regularly. [TS]

01:29:37   And I actually saw I had an i Pad one i Pad three and now the. I Pad Mini with Retina Display. [TS]

01:29:44   And the i Pad Mini I think is my favorite i Pad so far. In no small part. [TS]

01:29:50   For two reasons one because it is so much more portable which sounds so so stupid if you're if you're a big I've had [TS]

01:29:58   owner like one [TS]

01:29:58   when the first Many came out everyone was like oh it's so much broader because it's so much smaller as we go you people [TS]

01:30:03   crazy No it really is so much better because so much smaller. [TS]

01:30:06   And also because this is the first I've had ever had with cellular. Which is awesome and between the two. [TS]

01:30:14   That changes everything for me and I take it with me. A lot out with me a lot where I define out with me as. [TS]

01:30:22   Like I throw it in the glove box of the car or something like that or maybe I'm in a meeting [TS]

01:30:27   and I don't bring my computer but I just bring the i Pad so funny to look up something in an email [TS]

01:30:31   or something like that [TS]

01:30:32   or even take brief notes I can do that I use my Padmini constantly I love reading while you still have reading Twitter [TS]

01:30:38   on it but speaking of apps that are old three part is a little on the old side. It's still for Iowa six isn't it. Yep. [TS]

01:30:45   But and now you can make fun of me for FESTAC so haha. But I'm sorry Paul. I still love my i Pad Mini and. [TS]

01:30:54   I use it constantly and I know John. [TS]

01:30:57   That's all I mean obviously you have a big i Pad but almost everything else you would echo is that correct. [TS]

01:31:03   Well thought Now how do i Phone six right [TS]

01:31:05   and the i Phone six has is better competition for my i Pad three event my i Pod Touch was. [TS]

01:31:12   But the vast vast majority of the time and I've got both devices next to me. I pick the i Pad three. [TS]

01:31:19   You know it's like gone for maybe you know. Ninety nine percent to ninety eight percent of the time. [TS]

01:31:25   So i Phone six [TS]

01:31:26   and I really think it is the bigger screen the i Phone six on the bigger screen the reason I reach for it is not [TS]

01:31:30   because the C.P.U. Is like just ghastly faster then. And then the i Pad three. [TS]

01:31:35   Because that's not what I tend to run into the most it is reading things and browsing the web [TS]

01:31:41   or even just playing games I just don't notice any speed difference of the silly games that I play. [TS]

01:31:46   But because the screen is bigger but the reason i Pad three. [TS]

01:31:49   This giant everything he said about that matter is totally true it is just a massive battery slapped onto a rat is [TS]

01:31:55   going to reason I keep picking that is because they sleep [TS]

01:31:58   when it's not like I need the techs to be bigger need to read more stuff it's like when I'm using it to do anything. [TS]

01:32:06   It's closer to love being like a desktop I know I won't get the mobile site. [TS]

01:32:10   I won't get the little tiny site like mobiles that's frustrating me to no end. [TS]

01:32:13   I I can load full size web apps in it I can see big and. [TS]

01:32:17   This doesn't make sense given like the massive advance hardware advantage of the i Phone six [TS]

01:32:23   but I feel like if I need to do something on the Web site. [TS]

01:32:26   It probably won't work on this handheld thing I'll need a bigger screen to be able to do it [TS]

01:32:31   and that's obviously silly because it's like if it's something C.P.U. Intensive or some stupid. [TS]

01:32:35   Poorly implemented javascript scrolling ad banner crap like it's going to be way worse on the i Pad it is on that once [TS]

01:32:41   but I still find myself going to the. I Pad because I feel like I'm a desktop person like I want. [TS]

01:32:47   I want the real full web. [TS]

01:32:49   Here I go I want the real far to go and you know I don't know if I'm looking at comics obviously [TS]

01:32:53   or anything having to do with images [TS]

01:32:55   or you were just looking for i Pad Instagram apps like I've always had an i Pad Instagram out that's a tire prefer to [TS]

01:33:01   go through. Instagram even though the pictures are. [TS]

01:33:03   You know supposedly not hire as enough to make a difference like they're not. I'd like to I'd like to see the pictures. [TS]

01:33:08   And the Commons underneath them as I just want a bigger screen and so that's why. [TS]

01:33:12   That my current bigger screen the i Pad three. [TS]

01:33:15   With it's terribly unbalanced hardware and the now aging battery and the heat in the weight and everything like that. [TS]

01:33:23   Still beats out the i Phone six when I want to sort of have that experience of like when you would. [TS]

01:33:29   When I was still what are they still get print magazine sit down and just read a magazine sit down [TS]

01:33:33   and just read the computer equipment of a magazine. I was go to the i Pad. [TS]

01:33:37   So that's actually I'm glad to hear that and that's actually kind of what I'm finding so I decided you know. [TS]

01:33:44   Let me give the I've had. You know one last forever if I write it off as just a device that's not right for me. [TS]

01:33:49   So I got myself a mid range air to config and. [TS]

01:33:54   And I figured if I'm going to give us a fair shot I want to give it a really fair shot I want to have no complaints [TS]

01:33:58   about the hardware at all. You know so that I've had three A big heavy but ever. [TS]

01:34:04   I Pad Mini I just thought it was too small for the screen for my tastes [TS]

01:34:07   and didn't like the screen quality the heir to is great [TS]

01:34:11   and what I found is that you know I have many of the same frustrations that you just mentioned about. [TS]

01:34:16   You know things like being served. [TS]

01:34:18   The desktop or the mole website on a phone [TS]

01:34:20   and I know you can get their party browsers to switch that we all know that some Please don't write in about that we [TS]

01:34:24   can even. You can switch it in Safari now. Oh yeah right yeah that you pull down and yeah. So that's all fine. [TS]

01:34:31   The fact is there are still a lot of web stuff that's out there that people need to do in a regular basis. [TS]

01:34:37   That is either. Either impossible by somebody stupid web programming. [TS]

01:34:42   Or at least a very clunky or very difficult to do on a phone. [TS]

01:34:46   You know the screen is just too small for so for a lot of things. Or at least as you said on a lease it's better. [TS]

01:34:52   On a bigger screen. [TS]

01:34:54   I've also had a miserable time ever trying to get anything done on and I've had like getting work done. [TS]

01:35:00   I know a lot of people do it. That's fine but the kind of work I do. And the way I like to work. [TS]

01:35:05   It just does not work well and I about like it's the I've had a terrible work machine for me. [TS]

01:35:10   I've also found that if I'm going to be playing a game. I much prefer to play the game on the i Pad. [TS]

01:35:15   I will save games for the i Pad like like our friends. Never met Komi made. [TS]

01:35:21   The incident or the incident notes that fill them with the new one space age they suggest. [TS]

01:35:25   Yeah I can't even I do you know space age random phone. [TS]

01:35:27   I think it does because I think it in fall in both places [TS]

01:35:30   and I just deleted off the phone as soon as it install these and I want to the i Pad like. [TS]

01:35:34   This is a game like I want to fully enjoy this properly I want to sign an i Pad. I find myself. [TS]

01:35:41   If I'm going to be doing games which. And like our family thing we do a lot of games over the holidays. [TS]

01:35:46   So I want to be in the box for Christmas live. I figured abusing it a lot which is true. [TS]

01:35:52   I just really enjoy playing games on a full his i Pad [TS]

01:35:55   and the many I thought was was substantially worse for games just because you know something I play games. [TS]

01:36:01   They design the interface for me was out. They still assume the big screen and again it's. [TS]

01:36:06   I think I think you're playing a game of no question. The full sized one is better. [TS]

01:36:09   I mean the less and less you the most. [TS]

01:36:11   It'll make the difference in whether you bring it with you're not on on a trip or something but I don't. [TS]

01:36:15   I don't think the size difference between the two. [TS]

01:36:18   Is is is a major enough difference that like so many people would not bring a funny. [TS]

01:36:25   And i Pad air but would bring an i Pad Mini like it's it's the same class of things that need a small bag [TS]

01:36:32   or a very large jacket pocket. In any way. So I set up the new i Pad. [TS]

01:36:38   I did a clean install I didn't import any of my old I've had stuff. [TS]

01:36:43   I downloaded I don't know all the games that I had that I download to the I hadn't a couple new ones. [TS]

01:36:48   I didn't install anything to get any work done. And most importantly I didn't install a Twitter client. [TS]

01:36:56   Because tweet bought on the i Pad is as you mentioned. There you old. It has not been updated for a very long time. [TS]

01:37:04   And it is just really you know. It was fine for us how can I put that that was a very long time ago. [TS]

01:37:09   But it's pretty outdated now. [TS]

01:37:10   When it's functionally broken in a couple of ways like for example the Newts Well newish Twitter animated GIFs. [TS]

01:37:17   That's just infinitely going it infinitely opens that tweet like screen. [TS]

01:37:22   And so it's getting to the point that I'm struggling to use it even though I freaking love tweet like I used to be [TS]

01:37:29   fought in all my devices. But it's hard to use it on the i Pad now. [TS]

01:37:33   Forget about a tweet bought an old There's a lot of them problem of the Twitter effect sometimes [TS]

01:37:38   when you click on a twit pic or a pic. [TS]

01:37:40   That Twitter or whatever link it just shows the same tweet over [TS]

01:37:43   and over again is the RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT Twitter itself the mobile web site. [TS]

01:37:47   When I give up and say open in Safari. That doesn't load for me like fifty percent of the dial. Easily eighty S. [TS]

01:37:53   Ninety percent for me that's Riddick I don't know I never understand sometimes you just get a spinner forever somebody [TS]

01:37:57   just not. Not it won't load an animated gif a like. [TS]

01:38:00   I don't even notice neg it was all will show me is that you know like. And then maybe a spin or maybe it's just gray. [TS]

01:38:06   Maybe the fades that is anyway. [TS]

01:38:07   That's an understand how did these super famous highly used sites have like a fifty percent failure rate of just [TS]

01:38:15   viewing the content when you're not using official Twitter app which I bet works great. You're still mad about it. [TS]

01:38:21   So I said of the new i Pad Air with the prime. The primary things I'm doing on it. [TS]

01:38:28   Are looking at email how do you respond anymore. [TS]

01:38:31   Just look at the milk [TS]

01:38:32   and it's good for that it's good for me like going to support the overcut support emails I don't respond most of it. [TS]

01:38:37   Games and browsing and that's browsing is an important category so. Browsing you know I don't just mean a web browser. [TS]

01:38:44   Although that's part of it. I mean anything that involves browsing a feed. [TS]

01:38:48   Mostly for consumption Yes I know it's a cliche it only for consumption. [TS]

01:38:51   It my form saying this that this actually works very well for me so. Amazon. For instance works very well now i Pad. [TS]

01:38:59   So that's you know shopping. Instagram. Any kind of news browser any kind of NEWSSTAND. Publication like there's this. [TS]

01:39:06   Obscene IO that of see that I will put in a show note but I like that a lot. [TS]

01:39:12   I read that in the i Pad even of it you can read on the i Phone [TS]

01:39:15   but it's better on the I've had I think anything that while browsing code in general is better on a bigger screen [TS]

01:39:19   because usually it wraps too much on the i Phone screen. You know that's why can't read later in you know. [TS]

01:39:24   Read it or Hacker News [TS]

01:39:25   or any sort of because you know you're going to fall into it's going to have code in it as soon as this code it's like [TS]

01:39:29   well forget it I just cannot read it on the phone because like a truncated two finger swipe distress was like one of my [TS]

01:39:34   even six with like you can't. You know this doesn't you can just arbitrarily rewrap it. Right exactly. [TS]

01:39:41   And also any kind of web forums like Hacker News. Any kind of like old P F E V kind of form like so many of those. [TS]

01:39:48   Don't have very good response of or any response of layouts. [TS]

01:39:51   So like so many of those are still very hard to browse on a phone without having to either do it in landscape [TS]

01:39:56   and only have two on screen at once or [TS]

01:39:59   or had these really tiny little text columns that you could get like squint to see the taxes doesn't resize properly. [TS]

01:40:05   So many things like that like browsing the web in general if I'm going to if I have the option to use both of these [TS]

01:40:10   devices browse the web. All prefer the i Pad because everything we say. [TS]

01:40:14   I think we are only been saying so now that are restricted the i Pad. [TS]

01:40:18   Conceptually to like not to serve the exact same roles of my phone if I want to browse Twitter. [TS]

01:40:23   And do stuff like that the phone is a better device for that for make mostly for software [TS]

01:40:27   but the phone's a better device for that. But for browsing. Lounging and playing games. [TS]

01:40:34   The i Pad is very pleasant and better in a number he ways [TS]

01:40:39   and so that's how I'm reframing the use of it I think as I said like you know I got rid of my hardware complaints I now. [TS]

01:40:45   Have zero point the hardware the i Pad air to hardware is amazing. So I have no complaints with the hardware. [TS]

01:40:50   I'm going to celebrate their i Pad I have because I hate them all. [TS]

01:40:54   And they made me hate the i Pad Tenet get rid of all those and. And just keep this one for a while and see how it goes. [TS]

01:41:03   Chances are it's not going to stick as much as I want to Chen's Argus bog that was shiny and new and light and thin [TS]

01:41:09   and. And you'll be making fun of me in six months when I say I forgot about it. [TS]

01:41:13   But right now I think I found a way to to make this fit better my life by not making it just be a bigger version of [TS]

01:41:21   everything on my phone. Because some of this is going to be worse. [TS]

01:41:24   But instead of reframing it as like this is the device that I keep. You know next to the bed. [TS]

01:41:29   Browsing at night having fun. You know playing a game or reading the news. [TS]

01:41:33   Like that that I think is going to be a lot better for the i Pad. [TS]

01:41:37   So you really have no harbour complaints not even the one I'm about to say Can you guess what it is very upset about [TS]

01:41:42   the mutes which I am by the. [TS]

01:41:44   That's minor in the grand scheme of things I am annoyed that the got away because it's like why you got all this for [TS]

01:41:49   going room for switches and it's really useful when anyone. And my wife got a narrative as as well. [TS]

01:41:54   My complaint is the same complaint I had about the many. One of the complaints I had about the many does well with. [TS]

01:42:00   Yes. Yes why it's so like. It's subsetting to me because it's. That's not there like. [TS]

01:42:08   I understand why they make them as a with smaller and smaller on things like monitors [TS]

01:42:12   and stuff like what's the point of it or whatever but there was an actual point to the border around. [TS]

01:42:17   Previous i Pad It wasn't just there because that small as they could make it. [TS]

01:42:20   And they needed a buffer like know it's there because that's where you hold it in the thumb rejection stuff. [TS]

01:42:25   Just drive me nuts and maybe. [TS]

01:42:26   Just maybe maybe I just can't get over the idea of like just go ahead just put your arm around [TS]

01:42:30   or you'll never accidently accident. Give it a button the thumb rejection will totally handle this for you. [TS]

01:42:35   I just can't get over it. [TS]

01:42:37   And so I constantly feel like I'm holding it by like the look I'm actually trying not to touch the screen with my thumb. [TS]

01:42:42   And just. It feels more precarious. Like why why do the. I just just make it water and by the way. [TS]

01:42:48   If you make it ever so slightly wider that to be as big as it was now i Pad three but I need to be a thumb with right. [TS]

01:42:53   If you make a wider. You can also fit your battery just saying. Do you use a case on it and agent. No no never cover. [TS]

01:43:02   Yes. [TS]

01:43:03   That's another thing that I don't like is that if you want keep going to i Pad Air complaint the smart cover the moment [TS]

01:43:07   the metal hinge which I'm sure had some kind of problems or whatever way better in terms of going off axis [TS]

01:43:12   when you open and close it. You know like not saying you know when you have had three when the original And yeah yeah. [TS]

01:43:18   They have the original smart cover. [TS]

01:43:20   But I still have this probably some kind of gerbil the problem with it [TS]

01:43:23   and maybe it's crashes the people who I've had I'm not sure what the issues are but the one thing it did do is [TS]

01:43:27   when you open and close it. The edge of the i Pad matches up with the like. It doesn't go off. You know. [TS]

01:43:33   At a different angle whereas that the mini version works at all hinged terrible things one is off axis all the time [TS]

01:43:39   that is just you know if your anal retentive. [TS]

01:43:41   That really about you would like the bad cover you know the number three fold instead of four like those are all minor [TS]

01:43:49   things [TS]

01:43:49   but that all of them are trumped by the little skinny edge which I feel like doesn't need specially since it's so light [TS]

01:43:55   and so thin like I don't feel like I only need really need to make it an extra two centimetres narrow you don't let me [TS]

01:44:00   give me some place to put my thumb. So I for whatever her. [TS]

01:44:03   I get the full wrap around case this time this is my first time having one of those because like. They made it so. [TS]

01:44:07   Incredibly thin and light that like the extra bulk of the wrap around case is so minimal [TS]

01:44:12   and it does make it easier to hold in certain ways or certain situations. [TS]

01:44:16   I've never the Smart Covers always human you know idea in theory in practice I always found them kind of annoying in [TS]

01:44:22   various ways. The case is in some ways flatly less annoying. That's that's what can stay. [TS]

01:44:28   It's not perfect you know it still has a problem like oh you have this thing that flaps around the back sometimes [TS]

01:44:31   and the. Hold on very well. [TS]

01:44:33   But it leaves fixes any lemon issues you have because the case is always perfectly aligned him. I might try that case. [TS]

01:44:39   Yeah. It's again it's not great but it's. [TS]

01:44:40   I think it's a little bit better for the in-house kind of magazine like i Pad like mine is the. [TS]

01:44:46   The awesome thing about the Smart Cover is because I don't have a lock on it is a thing never these my house where you [TS]

01:44:51   open the cover. Activated. [TS]

01:44:53   You know you does know yet whether in the case of the two obviously you know I know so that's the thing anything [TS]

01:44:57   and I'll focus I leave mine. [TS]

01:44:59   Face up with the cover on it so that I can stack things on top of the cover without fear of scraping anything. [TS]

01:45:05   If the newness scratched the back. And that's nothing underneath I mean it's not it's actually sitting on top of like. [TS]

01:45:09   It's sitting on top of its own case I have a slip case or at that I use [TS]

01:45:12   when I think is obviously there all the I mean this is come with me every single day there is a have been to and. [TS]

01:45:18   Except for one small dent in the corner which is my fault I think I've discussed before. [TS]

01:45:22   It's not beaten up it's in pretty good condition it's. It's Survivor I found my experience. [TS]

01:45:27   For five i Pads are surprisingly durable maybe there will change that. [TS]

01:45:30   Because it's so thin that we haven't had any i Pad Air Ben gets fed what we need someone to make a You Tube video taken [TS]

01:45:36   i Pad Air. Put it over their knee and they just lean out it really ARE didn't bend the dildo up ago hot. [TS]

01:45:41   They totally a problem and. Marco it was your. [TS]

01:45:45   Is your i Pad cellular life I I got cellular because I still do so and I think this. [TS]

01:45:52   This Mike my last I won because I do think like. [TS]

01:45:56   I was initially will and to bring it on trips again like I used to I don't know. [TS]

01:46:00   And so far I've been Bring it on unless culture has taken so the various Hala trips. [TS]

01:46:05   But I haven't actually use the Siler function yet. I think if I don't use it again in the next. [TS]

01:46:09   Like six months I'm going to stop by them with oil or Honestly I think it'll be a few years before I buy another one [TS]

01:46:15   but I did always use it for carrier diversity I would always have the Verizon I've had an eight hundred eighty i Phone [TS]

01:46:21   and that way whenever wherever I was like a tether with either one. [TS]

01:46:25   So I wanted a trip I would never have to use terrible hotel life I I could always tether with one of them. [TS]

01:46:30   And usually Verizon was a better one to do that on. [TS]

01:46:32   Usually the PLEASE I was going for us now better coverage in the last year [TS]

01:46:36   or two that has been less of the case for our sins coverage has gotten worse for me in many places like go. [TS]

01:46:43   And more often than not now. I use the A.T.M. T. Tethering because it just is faster where I am. And that. [TS]

01:46:50   First of all is concerning that the world turned upside down. [TS]

01:46:55   So it might just prove that I don't need rising at all anymore and I could dump them finally but mostly. All right. [TS]

01:47:01   I do recommend. If you're if you're the kind of persons in a carrier on the i Pad with you in the world. [TS]

01:47:06   Like not just leaving your house of a time. [TS]

01:47:09   Definitely get Cellular is it is very much worth it because if you're if using it by itself most of the time. [TS]

01:47:15   Tethering is still a little bit annoying that being said. [TS]

01:47:18   The new I was a tethering with like the how detect your phone through continuity [TS]

01:47:22   or whatever that that might make it a little bit of my close the gap a little bit I don't know [TS]

01:47:26   but I do recommend Still I think in Siler. If you're gonna carry around. [TS]

01:47:30   But if it's going to be in your house all time I don't think it's that important. [TS]

01:47:33   Yeah I couldn't agree more because this is again my third i Pad for Cellular and. I wasn't sure if the. [TS]

01:47:38   What is it like hundred thirty dollars was really worth it. [TS]

01:47:41   I did the exact same thing you did in that I got a Verizon i Pad and I have eighteen tea for my phone. I then got the. [TS]

01:47:51   I don't know if this is still a thing or not but you could. Right around the time the. I Pad Mini with Retina came out. [TS]

01:47:58   You could give team mobile ten bucks and they'll give you a Sim and you could. [TS]

01:48:03   That you will give you two hundred megs of data every month for free on the. [TS]

01:48:07   Hope that if you already have their SIM card in your i Pad when you need to pay for data while. [TS]

01:48:12   A You'll be in a place a T. Mobile actually works and B. That you will pay a team mobile for that data. [TS]

01:48:18   And I find that for the current for the amount of time. [TS]

01:48:21   I'm running about with my i Pad two hundred makes data is actually usually enough. And then if I'm traveling. [TS]

01:48:29   I can either use T. [TS]

01:48:30   Mobile with a minimal major metropolitan area or Verisign if I'm not in get online with that and I gotta tell you. [TS]

01:48:37   Being at the beach and being able to screw around on Twitter if I so desire with my i Pad. [TS]

01:48:43   That's pretty cool so I agree with you that if you think you're going to be leaving the house a lot. [TS]

01:48:47   Definitely spend the extra money to get a site where i Pad. I really do think it's worth it. [TS]

01:48:53   And that he mobile thing is still there I looked when I [TS]

01:48:55   when I was activating mine I didn't just transfer in the right because a few the news had the Apple sim. [TS]

01:48:59   But yeah it was on to Verizon AT LAST OF arise in which a stupid. I'm sure that was Verizon being a pain or something. [TS]

01:49:05   Anyway. So I just transfer the symphony or i Pad. [TS]

01:49:09   But the the apple sim does still offer that option the so you don't even have to go get ten bucks and given to a T. [TS]

01:49:16   Mobile store like. You can bypass that's up you can just buy a new i Pad air to with dollars today and. [TS]

01:49:22   And just select a mobile from the from the start of screen on this island plan thing. [TS]

01:49:26   And it offers and it does offer that two hundred megs for everything that's awesome I did know that anyway. [TS]

01:49:31   Thanks well two or three sponsors this week. Harry's fracture and Squarespace. And we will see you next week. [TS]

01:49:40   Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to be good because it was accidental. The with the accidental. [TS]

01:49:51   John didn't go anywhere in Montgomery county seat with his town. [TS]

01:49:56   Because it was then with the death toll was accidental. And she was going to find a ship that A.T.C. and If you are. [TS]

01:50:12   As he well says that's keep lists [TS]

01:50:17   and the team are safe they were key is if you're saying something about as hard as the code on the tiny screen stuff [TS]

01:50:44   like that. Yep. This phenomenon. I don't know if it's new for Twitter. [TS]

01:50:48   Maybe it's not just what Or maybe it's lots of things but I find very often when I'm doing stuff on my phone [TS]

01:50:55   or i Pod Touch. [TS]

01:50:57   And somebody does that thing where they post a screen shot any there it is a screen shot trying to show some piece of [TS]

01:51:03   software or something [TS]

01:51:03   or more commonly I find it is that insane thing that makes no sense to me except for maybe as a way to get around tweet [TS]

01:51:11   limits which I think this is about Twitter where they post the picture of text. [TS]

01:51:16   So it's like it's like a picture of a web page. [TS]

01:51:20   Like bait screen shot of their web browser and then put that in a thing and like. [TS]

01:51:24   Sometimes it's a picture of a tweet which really boggles my mind is like like with a mechanism for retreating. Like. [TS]

01:51:31   I guess maybe even in the in the non-technical person like view of the world a screenshot of. [TS]

01:51:38   Or that a photograph was proof. [TS]

01:51:40   Which really just next year a sense but I know that my problem is or it's a people do this thing it [TS]

01:51:45   and sometimes it's just a legitimate screen shot like showing some application or whatever. [TS]

01:51:49   And whatever I'm using whether it's a Twitter website or a Twitter client or if it's a vine thing or if it's an image [TS]

01:51:54   or a link or like I don't even know what saw from using but very frequently I find myself tapping something. [TS]

01:51:59   Seeing a picture. And I can't freakin read it. No matter how much as soon because it's so massively low. [TS]

01:52:04   Like the resolution is not sufficient to resolve letters. [TS]

01:52:07   Like the letters are just object ball of you know it's its gaping compression problem with the red you know like if [TS]

01:52:12   it's like a some big indented comment or whatever. And it's like. [TS]

01:52:16   I know this is not the original image because nobody would oppose this image because it's illogical they're trying to [TS]

01:52:21   make a point and like sometimes it's just the picture like I'll give this. [TS]

01:52:24   Read this text and become outraged over the how they're trying to say right. [TS]

01:52:27   And it is one hundred percent illegible and that means something between me and them. [TS]

01:52:32   Is causing a massively can present version of this image to come in [TS]

01:52:35   and probably it's Twitter doing it like try to sell give will serve the mobile version. [TS]

01:52:41   Well I'm getting As it so many things. So many web services seem to have the idea that all pictures are photos. [TS]

01:52:47   And no pictures are screenshots or contain text [TS]

01:52:50   and in my experience it's the opposite almost all pictures are not photos and are like screenshots or text [TS]

01:52:56   or something. And I want to be able to read them. [TS]

01:52:58   And these services like this is another reason I want to be in my path because listen I bet I have a fighting chance [TS]

01:53:03   they won't try to serve me the super duper compressed tiny scaled version of the image. And I find. [TS]

01:53:09   And credibly freshening is like I'm not a lot on the corner real Internet I have to be. [TS]

01:53:12   And it's like being in a web browser again like Toyah version of this. You can handle the full quote unquote photo. [TS]

01:53:20   Here is this totally mangle version that is useless to you [TS]

01:53:22   but you can't read a damn thing on it drives me up all the I can't get over. [TS]

01:53:28   What is a tweet shotting or something like that with a pick the other day was that. That's like a thing. [TS]

01:53:34   I've no idea but. [TS]

01:53:35   But basically where you like you John was saying where you take a screenshot of something [TS]

01:53:40   and maybe if you're really cool you'll like highlight the line that that you want to call tension to like. [TS]

01:53:48   That's annoying. [TS]

01:53:49   But I can get over it if you can include a link to whatever page you're trying to link to but my favorite [TS]

01:53:57   and by favorite I mean the thing I threaten hate is when they take a screenshot of this thing [TS]

01:54:02   and the don't provide a freaking link. Because it's so annoying and people are posting examples. [TS]

01:54:08   Like you know this is like this one from N.G.C. [TS]

01:54:11   Guys obviously a screenshot like mobile Safari because it's the the highlight of the paragraph or whatever. [TS]

01:54:16   And sometimes it's not like you know the content may be good like What the. [TS]

01:54:19   What people are trying to do with this new strategy is beyond like the using screen justice prevail out of his like. [TS]

01:54:24   I can't fit this in a tweet I can put a link to an a tweet but I think of the put a link to it you want to follow it [TS]

01:54:28   and so many Twitter clients inline images that if I put the actual image. [TS]

01:54:32   You can read text that I couldn't otherwise include in the treat It's like people just don't know it works because you [TS]

01:54:38   know people according to what engage with your tweet more if they can see the paragraph of text here. You know. [TS]

01:54:45   I don't even use a Twitter client that. [TS]

01:54:47   I mean I have Twitter doesn't line images but I have that feature turned off [TS]

01:54:51   and for a long time it didn't inline images [TS]

01:54:52   and also my experience of Twitter is very different I would rather just follow the link [TS]

01:54:56   but sometimes it's nice to be able to know exactly where it is there's nothing like in page anger isn't it. [TS]

01:55:00   People don't know how to use. Or they don't exist or both. And so the best way people communicate. There's an article. [TS]

01:55:06   And this part about it I was like basically what they're doing is a link list kind of blog posts where I was there [TS]

01:55:11   they're running a link blog. [TS]

01:55:12   They want to link you to something and they want to quote the passages they found relevant. And comment on them. [TS]

01:55:16   And the way they do it is tweet on top one hundred forty characters or. [TS]

01:55:20   You know less plus the link to the image in the image has the part highlighted with. [TS]

01:55:25   Those kind of a mutant inverted form of blogging. Where you can't just birth the Jew thing anyway. [TS]

01:55:31   Bottom line if you're writing your mobile application don't assume all photos are text if you're going to want to be [TS]

01:55:35   clever you want to save bandwidth. [TS]

01:55:37   Figure out of their photos or text [TS]

01:55:38   or none of their text make sure that you don't scale them down so brutally that it becomes clear gibberish. All right. [TS]

01:55:44   Tired what do sidles as a self not ten cheddar who said. [TS]

01:55:51   Discover the board had makes pension or I don't know that's going to be any good. It's not really an Italian Brando. [TS]

01:55:58   Thing. Anyway. We bought them we're going to try. Well I agree that as a salad not been Jetta. [TS]

01:56:05   You're full of landmines pitfalls and bottomless pits. [TS]

01:56:08   Is pretty decent although I might have said that it was either me or Marco. [TS]

01:56:12   So I think all he's done with I think so how about how about get rid of how to get rid of the fall of [TS]

01:56:17   and just go with landmines pitfalls and bottomless pits. I could do that at all but that's for common. [TS]

01:56:23   So landmines common fit pitfalls common and bottomless pit. [TS]

01:56:27   It makes me so happy to hear that you also appreciate an Oxford comma in this is that unanimous to hear Marco say the [TS]

01:56:32   same. Oh absolutely. [TS]

01:56:33   Prescience in everybody agrees that the only people who don't agree no no it's crazy it's great it's not like a style [TS]

01:56:40   choice like well you know only there is a clarity choices and everyone. [TS]

01:56:43   Like I don't understand why does any argument because it isn't arguments on polls that one of the crazy examples [TS]

01:56:47   and go see [TS]

01:56:47   and the like get those people like oh well I guess you'd have to use it there are don't write that sentence [TS]

01:56:52   or some crazy thing it's. No forget it. I've never heard a convincing argument against. [TS]

01:56:57   I could not agree with you more friend of the show Stephen Hackett swears that the Oxford comma is evil [TS]

01:57:01   and I am glad that we all agree that he's wrong. So what does he say on. [TS]

01:57:05   You know when people bring up examples of like this and says. [TS]

01:57:07   To changes the meaning of the sentence in a totally crazy [TS]

01:57:10   and if you don't let me put a comma there I cannot express the meaning the intended meaning of that is one of these I [TS]

01:57:14   haven't. I have no idea we could probably call him. [TS]

01:57:18   I have no idea what drives me nuts about about the at the absence of the Freak On the one thousand it's like what I [TS]

01:57:25   read and I don't know if anyone reads this way I may be so so I'm a programmer I don't know what I read. [TS]

01:57:31   I get tripped up if I hit what he has to be a parse error. Yes. [TS]

01:57:35   And so I write with this in mind so I try to avoid giving people this feeling [TS]

01:57:40   and it's hard being it's a no wait with your own stuff and it's. It's given somebody points out like all. [TS]

01:57:45   I thought this sentence that you wrote didn't make any sense to me at first as I thought I meant this [TS]

01:57:49   and you know so it's good to you know Pittston picture that and reword things when you need to but like. [TS]

01:57:54   For me it's like. Like I read in a stream. And I don't want to have to read the whole sentence. [TS]

01:57:59   To understand the beginning of it less. [TS]

01:58:01   You know you can I push the claws on your stack and everything but you know for the most part like. [TS]

01:58:07   As you're reading you don't want to be tripped up by something like the like the end of the list not happening the way [TS]

01:58:13   you thought it would or like. [TS]

01:58:14   You know parallel structure errors or great sample the stuff like that [TS]

01:58:17   and I think the absence of the Harvard flash serial comma. [TS]

01:58:22   Increases the likelihood of people tripping up as they're reading that. That list of items and like. [TS]

01:58:27   Miss parsing it for a second and having to go back like oh wait a minute. [TS]

01:58:30   Oh that's what they meant by that I really don't understand how people could think that that that. [TS]

01:58:35   Not having the Oxford comma is an option because I grew drawn like it. [TS]

01:58:39   Dramatically changes the meaning of the sentence. But whatever. [TS]

01:58:45   I'm so I'm to make the genuinely happy that we all agree on this. The only thing. [TS]

01:58:51   Well that night heads aren't a complete waste of money. Yeah. Well ask me again six months. That's true. [TS]

01:58:58   You've got a year to figure out this note issue I know you going to give up on it you probably should [TS]

01:59:02   but it makes me sad. If I love everything else about no I would I would try to figure this out more. [TS]

01:59:07   It just doesn't seem like a Type A man it's young it's like it hasn't been tested in this way in the Waited a lot of [TS]

01:59:14   these older things have especially if it's. [TS]

01:59:17   If it seems like the type of thing where you OK so you run into this problem and you ask the question [TS]

01:59:20   and the answer is not oh of course everyone runs into the problem he's a fix the answer is of course everyone's a [TS]

01:59:26   problem and you're right it's a problem. [TS]

01:59:27   Like that's bad because the beginner should not immediately find something that causes that causes people who know it [TS]

01:59:34   to say. Yeah I know the toll it is or. [TS]

01:59:36   I mean why should really happen as you should run and all the problems [TS]

01:59:38   and energy like yeah that's what everyone's into Here's what you do [TS]

01:59:41   when you're under nother one like it should be the progression of you learning a language shouldn't be. You know. [TS]

01:59:47   Three days in you immediately had a road block it is a legitimate road lock [TS]

01:59:51   and there's not a commonly known work around. Yeah and it's like. [TS]

01:59:54   And like what you can always tell the warning signs from the community that this might be that some be the wrong thing [TS]

02:00:01   for you. So like. If the questions you answer. Like so the question. [TS]

02:00:05   If the question is why is set time at least in memory. If all of the answers are don't use that time out. [TS]

02:00:13   And there's nothing else the does the same think it's like OK. [TS]

02:00:16   That's a that's a red flag right there that something's not right here this is some some part of this is a bad fit. [TS]

02:00:23   Like this this is not this is not what I'm looking for. [TS]

02:00:25   I remember trying to look for sleep call in javascript [TS]

02:00:28   or early on I was like well you know every language has some way to just you know. [TS]

02:00:32   I was just doing it to like induce a race condition [TS]

02:00:35   or whatever it's not like I wanted said time out I want like just you do nothing for a while please because I wanted to [TS]

02:00:40   have a race with some of the fellows going on it's like how annoying would not have a sleep causes this is like Unix [TS]

02:00:46   addling my brain other simming every language has access to the UNIX A.P.I. but. Yeah with that without set Timeout. [TS]

02:00:52   It without without a way for you to say don't do this now. But in a little bit. [TS]

02:00:57   In a time that I'm going to specify in milliseconds. Do this. [TS]

02:01:00   And if you can't do that I was trying to think [TS]

02:01:02   when you were asking that question well if I don't use that time out then what is what smiled her maybe note as an [TS]

02:01:07   alternative because no you know. No like that that is like node. Node implemented set time out and said interval. [TS]

02:01:12   Itself like in its engine. [TS]

02:01:15   To work this way and like that is if you look at the they call the timers module if you look at the node timers module. [TS]

02:01:21   That's that's it like those of the function that you that you have to schedule something in the future and it's not [TS]

02:01:25   and it's not just like. [TS]

02:01:26   It's not just like a thing where you have to be careful about what you reference inside the closure [TS]

02:01:30   and stuff like this. [TS]

02:01:30   There's like no work around like Oh everyone knows [TS]

02:01:33   when you do set time that you've got to be careful not to have not the cause over these references [TS]

02:01:36   or to like explicitly do something you know to make it happy so you don't like memory there's nothing. [TS]

02:01:41   I haven't looked too far into it I even tried. I'm like you know maybe. [TS]

02:01:45   Maybe it is doing something way too literally the calls like set Timeout. Pull your all. He T.L. I don't like ID. [TS]

02:01:53   That's it let the ID is an integer. And I even. [TS]

02:01:55   I even tried parse into I just to make sure it's an integer doesn't try to retain them in crazy and. [TS]

02:02:01   I even tried making a string. Evolve thing to set high but unfortunate isn't support that. [TS]

02:02:07   So I was like it maybe maybe that would force it not to retain anything. [TS]

02:02:11   Intelligently because it doesn't know what I'm calling. No didn't help. [TS]

02:02:15   Can't be done this in the memory limit which also seem to trying to be no actually that's the limit. [TS]

02:02:20   And it's at the limit and it's low and. [TS]

02:02:23   And apparently people aren't bothered by like it's not gonna know it's as like Romana Moji support. [TS]

02:02:29   Some things just can't be explained. Although it's not coming I'm sure it's coming I'm sure. I need to know. [TS]

02:02:37   Overall I think I would say. If I had to predict and Granted most My predictions are comically wrong. [TS]

02:02:44   But if I had to predict the future of these languages I would say. Python and Ruby. Will outlive node in common usage. [TS]

02:02:54   But know that a language I was kept alive since I was give us language socks [TS]

02:02:57   and only reason anyone cares about it all is because every frigging where we all have to deal with it. [TS]

02:03:01   And like so that's that for javascript and. No it is like well whatever great if you could say. [TS]

02:03:06   You same thing on the server horizon client side. [TS]

02:03:08   Yeah kind of but you then you're still using Javascript in both places [TS]

02:03:11   and I think there is a place for a mature server side. Javascript solution. [TS]

02:03:15   It just may be that node jast is not the one or maybe needs more time to bake or whatever [TS]

02:03:20   but there's nothing about know that says like oh maybe [TS]

02:03:22   and maybe no never accepted in someone else comes out of the services there's been there been other service odd jobs [TS]

02:03:27   or been there will be other ones in the future until we can't unless we can get Javascript off of the. The browser. [TS]

02:03:33   They were always be a place for javascript on the server. [TS]

02:03:37   And whether it implemented and who does a good job and if there are bugs [TS]

02:03:41   and if we get to use Marj goblet cations I've gotta change over the years but until we can get rid of javascript [TS]

02:03:45   and the browser side. Probably stuck with some kind of job script on the server side. You know. [TS]

02:03:52   I should point out that the current version of node is zero dot ten thirty five which. [TS]

02:03:58   I mean obviously everyone's version numbers mean something different than everyone else's [TS]

02:04:03   but we are far from what looks to me like we are far from want to know. [TS]

02:04:08   Although this is something that should be solved or [TS]

02:04:10   and I mean there's nothing there's nothing technically about no that says it couldn't be made to be better like it just [TS]

02:04:15   is just young yet and people obviously haven't stressed it to do that was that the market was doing. [TS]

02:04:21   Or haven't found that's where the limit as it needs time to mature and become about us. Like right mean maybe. [TS]

02:04:27   Maybe I'm using their own tool for the job here. But it really it really seemed like it was a good tool for this job. [TS]

02:04:33   Yeah really bums me out because I really wanted to like it I don't even know why I like it doesn't matter. [TS]

02:04:38   But it just seemed like this is the sort of thing I would use note for to your point and. [TS]

02:04:45   It seems like it's a lost cause and it worked fine if you had ten thousand year old aquaria but once here. [TS]

02:04:50   Up and do you know. [TS]

02:04:52   Two hundred fifty thousand than going for it [TS]

02:04:54   and it would work fine if I was going to reset the process every six hours. With only one thousand euros to crawl. [TS]

02:04:59   Like it. It's a memory leak like it leaks forever really gets too big and. [TS]

02:05:06   Yeah and when I'm crawling the full [TS]

02:05:08   and I'm not even crawling all two hundred fifty thousand like I did my last test [TS]

02:05:13   when I was crawling eight of them whatever that is like you know. Forty or whatever the. [TS]

02:05:17   And even doing that it would it would pass again within like twenty minutes. It was really bad. [TS]

02:05:24   Like it's doing so and they and I tried their the heap dumb thing. [TS]

02:05:28   So I tried taking heat from profiles and loading them into Chrome developer thing and looking at all the stacks [TS]

02:05:33   and I saw them as like I do and everything was other. Yeah exactly. [TS]

02:05:36   And for the for the few objects it is it is tracking you could see some of them had really really deep recursive set [TS]

02:05:42   Timeout calls. So you can tell that's where the problem is the problem is set Timeout is retaining things. [TS]

02:05:48   Recursively even I'm not calling function or cursedly [TS]

02:05:51   but like the function at the end of itself call set time out on itself. For some point in the future. And I tried. [TS]

02:05:59   Not doing that and doing a worse solution using set interval. Instead. [TS]

02:06:03   And I tried you know clearing the intervals of course I tried a lot at it. I could not get to work. I worked. [TS]

02:06:10   I could not get it to not legal over the place and it just. Again it's. It just is not. [TS]

02:06:16   It is not a good enough fit in every other way to what I'm told I want in new language. [TS]

02:06:21   To make it worth fighting on this point. [TS]

02:06:24   So I mean the case the Emini you're getting what you want which is you're going to try a new language and now. [TS]

02:06:29   Because no does not working out I'm trying even more new languages so really this is awesome. Well. Yes and no. [TS]

02:06:37   I think you're predisposed to hate almost ever seen you're trying but. But to your credit you are trying. [TS]

02:06:43   And that is that is making me happy. I know I wouldn't say I'm predisposed. [TS]

02:06:47   Once I actually I'm predisposed to hate and I haven't tried before because I don't want to have to try them. [TS]

02:06:52   Once I actually try a new language like. [TS]

02:06:55   Now I feel like I feel like I've I've spent two weeks [TS]

02:06:58   or however long it's been getting pretty decent as one really complicated task a node. [TS]

02:07:04   And now I feel like I'm throwing away all this knowledge I mean granted at least it was quick. [TS]

02:07:07   You know this already knew their job script syntax [TS]

02:07:09   and everything like you know goes in take a little bit longer learn just because it's. [TS]

02:07:13   It's so much more different than what I know. [TS]

02:07:16   So I'm going to I'm going to be more upset if go to work out [TS]

02:07:19   but once I try something I want to work because I don't want to learn something else. [TS]

02:07:24   That's just like it's like natural human offensiveness like you want to when something is new [TS]

02:07:28   and for millionaires most people's default reaction is to try to reject. [TS]

02:07:33   It's writs relevance to them so that they can continue the way they've been doing things [TS]

02:07:38   or the way they you know the weight if they think things are there the your intent is to reject new ideas [TS]

02:07:44   or dismiss them as soon as you can. There's a political joke here but I'm going to let it go. [TS]